I think most kites can be flown off of the bridles. I've done it with small foil kites (e.g. HQ Symphony 2.2, HQ Rush 200) and similar. The main
difference is that the NPW type kites are more useful for short line or off the bridle flying because they have more forward pull but less less upward
lift. So they work for pulling things. Guys who want to jump high are not going to be using them though.
I've read also that its that they are more like parachutes and I think that makes sense. A parachute has a lot of pull against the wind but it won't
lift one up - its sort of all drag, no lift (well much more drag than lift).
Kitewings weigh a whole lot more than a kite since they have a solid frame, but the wind provides a lot of the support for the frame so for a skilled
user that may not be much of an issue. They are really cool - if money were no object I'd have one. (I have tried to make my own - not easy.) I
don't know for sure, but sails are generally more efficient than kites (in terms of l/d). Kites being flown on short or no lines lose the advantage
of cleaner and stronger wind at altitude. I've done a lot of landsailing with small windsurf sails (about 4-5 meters) they are better than kites at
getting upwind, but not as flexible, and of course take time to rig.
Kitewing is a great addition to kites but not a substitute. The main reason is the required minimum wind required for the wing to fly – 15-20 km/h –
the fact conveniently omitted from KW propaganda. Above that level, KW is a joy to use, with great forward pull requiring minimal edging, weight not
being an issue at all. Below that level it is an awkward contraption to carry so in marginal conditions it is not a good idea to be far from home. In
the right conditions it is my preferred means of propulsion. It is a little more technical than a kite, and a good turn needs some practice but a high
speed, duck jibe is like nothing else. Hooking a wingtip in snow when hooked in will result in a spectacular crash so a certain degree of attention is
needed before reactions become automatic.
one thing to remember is the fact that the kite will loose its ability to fly if you remove the lines. it will also gain power and increase the
performance of the kite if you increase the line length. start with any kite and 20-25m lines and by shortening the lines to just the bridle will
basically render the kite to just a big bag of air. by increasing the line length you increase the power and performance to a point. after that point
it develops into a different scenario.
just remember the closer to the ground the kite fly's, the more crappy the wind. the higher up the kite fly's the cleaner the wind.
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
It has occurred to me that when I fly my kite off the bridles only, it is no longer a kite, but really more of a sail, and I am the mast. As sails
go, they are not particularly good ones, but they do have several advantages: They are lighter, cheaper and a lot more portable; the mast is free and
you can take it with you wherever you go......:P
If your locations are getting closed in as you describe I have to wonder what the wind looks like down low where you want to fly ?
Picture the wind as water flowing toward you. It will be messed up for 7 - 10 times the distance of any obstacle upwind.
From the little I know of kite wing you want a LOT of space and strong winds to really enjoy them?
NPW on very short lines or off the bridle can be hauled in and then re-deployed while still in motion. Very handy for back roads or parks with poles.
NPW on very short lines or off the bridle can be hauled in and then re-deployed while still in motion
You bet!!...and even packed up while still moving.... in seconds!
I have ridden along a narrow 8ft wide asphalt walkway along beach on regular rollerblades... hugging edge and going by people. Rode off of bridal.
Lift up like an umbrella when going by folks...
I use regular length line foil in open areas... but I did try it( NPW w/ short lines) at least once in high winds(30+mph) on beach.
I used my NPW off the bridles with only 1 m lines for 2 days at Jibe (in part because there was plenty of wind - and I had never flown around that man
kiters before so I wanted to keep the lines short).
Do it at my home parking lot as well. Sometimes its a quick way of dealing with an overpowered situation. All depends on circumstances.
My guess is you would be limited to going downwind only with that ice kite/sail, though I don't really know. That's how it looks on the video. It
probably doesn't matter much - you could fold it up and then skate back upwind. Though if there is enough wind to get going you would probably have a
bit of work getting back upwind.
One problem with foils on short lines is that they get their power from sped - being "worked" into a figure 8, which you can't do on short lines. NPW
type kites don't need to do that, though one usually tries to do a sin wave type motion to add some power.
You don't need a better kite. You need a better car!
I have had to say goodbye to a few choice spots due to development. At a certain point riding there becomes too frustrating and unsafe. One mistake
can give our whole sport a big set back. My closest decent location is now a 45 minute drive. 4.5 hours now that we need snow. Either way, it's better
than dealing with Janky winds!
For what you are describing I have no doubt that NPW will be the way to go. If DIY is your goal there are plenty of NPW plans out there and a host of
people on here that can help you with your build. There is a reason that none of those other designs have a big following while NPW does!
one thing to remember is the fact that the kite will loose its ability to fly if you remove the lines. it will also gain power and increase the
performance of the kite if you increase the line length. start with any kite and 20-25m lines and by shortening the lines to just the bridle will
basically render the kite to just a big bag of air. by increasing the line length you increase the power and performance to a point. after that point
it develops into a different scenario.
just remember the closer to the ground the kite fly's, the more crappy the wind. the higher up the kite fly's the cleaner the wind.
Wing’s ability to fly and generate lift does not depend on whether it is on long lines, short lines or no lines but on its airfoil, airspeed and AOA.
Short lines, or more so no lines, will reduce the projected area with some reduction of power. It does not mean that the wing looses the ability to
fly. The airfoil remains essentially the same, the wind and motion provides the airspeed just like on longer lines. What is reduced or lost (with no
lines) is the ability to fly across the window to generate more airspeed and more power which means the reduced ability to CONTROL power. Unlike
insufficient power (due to smaller projected area or less wind at lower elevation) which can easily be remedied by using a bigger kite, the reduction
of ability of power control can be a significant drawback.
Moving a kite within the window is not a prerequisite for power. It serves to generate more power than a stationary kite can provide and therefore
provides power control. If continuous sining is required it only means that the kite is too small for the conditions.
The ground also has friction that acts against the wind. Depending on the texture of the surface having the kite a little higher in the air may make a
big difference.
If continuous sining is required it only means that the kite is too small for the conditions.
.
Short line flying is all about size then...and it's inherent parked power
You'll need a carefully sized quiver of NPW's. nice they pack so small and can take a bunch in your day-sized backpack..and you can change on the
fly..!:singing:
If continuous sining is required it only means that the kite is too small for the conditions.
.
Short line flying is all about size then...and it's inherent parked power
You'll need a carefully sized quiver of NPW's. nice they pack so small and can take a bunch in your day-sized backpack..and you can change on the
fly..!:singing:
Not that I've done a ton of off the bridle flying, but I do own a 9-kite quiver of NS3s ranging from 1.5m all the way up to 12.5m. For inland wind
conditions I've found that the trick of increasing the kite size to match the decreasing wind strength is iffy at best right off the bridle. Part of
this is likely due to wind inconsistencies. One issue that effects all NS3s when flown off the bridle is their tendency to fly backwards. As the winds
get lighter and the kites bigger, the kites also get heavier and this back flying issue seems to get worse. I've had both a 10m and a 12.5m in the air
and it was highly frustrating.
A better pilot and better winds could well lead to a better outcome, but I for one would not anticipate great results.
Off bridle will work with consistent wind even if light. Back stall happens when when there is a lull. Large size will suffer from back stall more
because light inland wind is accompanied by lulls of 0. I suspect clean light wind would be very different story. However, 4 line flown of bridle
works better than 2 line off bridle in light wind.
It's for these reasons I only longboard with the 4 meter and 2.5 meter star on a bar and short lines. In their wind ranges, there is not usually
lulls of 0 if ever.
Again, I've gotten off bridle to work inland but it's a very rare day. Your normally going to need short lines if turbulent wind at all.
I've found a good gauge for consistent traction with short or no lines on a nasa flown on bar is if you launch, it should stay flying static at zenith
with very little pilot input. If you launch and the kite wants to backstall and fall out of the sky, then you have to size up or quit for the day if
your already on the biggest.
Off bridle will work with consistent wind even if light. Back stall happens when when there is a lull. Large size will suffer from back stall more
because light inland wind is accompanied by lulls of 0. I suspect clean light wind would be very different story. However, 4 line flown of bridle
works better than 2 line off bridle in light wind.
It's for these reasons I only longboard with the 4 meter and 2.5 meter star on a bar and short lines. In their wind ranges, there is not usually
lulls of 0 if ever.
Again, I've gotten off bridle to work inland but it's a very rare day. Your normally going to need short lines if turbulent wind at all.
There you are Sean! I've been waiting for days for you to weigh in on this thread. I think you are absolutely right about everything you noted for us
inland guys. It is extremely rare that I will get to fly on the beach, but maybe I'll try some off the bridle NPW flying with my skates at Ivanpah
next Spring. That is some sweet inland wind!
I'm going to experiment this winter on skis a bit. Once our snowpack gets deep enough there are a lot of places I can go where it will have been miles
since the wind found any obstructions to janky it up. I agree that this is likely highly related to the jank/clean issues we deal with (daily). My
limited experience flying off bridles has to date been limited to static sessions running around to attempt to simulate movement under power. Under
such conditions I've had far better outcomes in higher winds / smaller kites as you mentioned.
I was just taking in all the action on this thread :D
I've been wanting to split my bridles on the 5.5 and 7 and give them another go on handles and longboard in the really light stuff just for fun and
for better control through the lulls.
The 2.5 and 4 and I assume your 3.2 are great fun on short line. They handle the gusty stuff and are VERY maneuverable. However if you get some
clean wind, those large sizes will probably be fun on skate/skis as well
I had never heard of the backstall but certainly have encountered it in flying my playsail and wondered what was going on. Now I know.
I've dealt with backstalls much more with big NPWs than small ones, likely do to the winds in my area often being such that they drop down to next to
nothing when the base wind is light enough to merit a large kite. This is certainly attributable to (personal) pilot error issues too.
This video shows a couple of classic NPW back flying / stalls. Backflying right in the beginning and a stall at around 2:45. This video was shot
with a 12.5m NS3 on a very light wind day. I rode on an artificial turf athletic field to cut down on the rolling resistance.
12.5M!!!!!!!!!!!!! The power on that beast must be amazing! I didn't know they made them that large commercially (or rather I wouldn't know where to
even find a NPW of such size).
Those backstalls are intriguing. The exact same thing happens seemingly on my playsail which while similar is not a NPW so I guess this is something
characteristic to single skin non-rigid kites. Really fascinating stuff.
BTW did you make that 12.5m or buy it?
Steffen Born from Germany sells a full quiver of NPWs called the NASA STAR-3. He stocks 2.5, 4.0, 5.5, and 7.0m, and makes custom 1.5, 3.2, 8.5, 10.0,
and 12.5m. They are 3-line kites, using the two main lines for power as per usual for NPWs and a third central line that when pulled scrunches up the
nose of the kite, an action that scrubs power creating a DP of sorts. Central line is also used for "flagging out" as a safety line.
If you peruse the General Born-Kite thread you will find that a few of us are quite fond of these beauties. :D
And yes, the power of the 12.5 can be pretty humbling. I think this kite would be best suited for very clean light wind. I live in the mountains of
Utah and our winds can be quite variable, dare I say, janky. I've had this kite in the air in my buggy and had the wind pick up. It can become Toads
Wild Ride pretty quickly! :karate:
All Nasas, and that includes Nasa Star, suffer from the critical flaw – reduced ability to fly at low angle of attack. From what I’ve seen in every
Nasa I’ve tried is that that deficiency is overcompensated by overly steep AOA and too much trailing edge pull. This results in a lot of power -
largely illusionary since it is directed where you don’t want to go i.e. downwind, at the expense of the component in the direction of travel. This is
accompanied by the tendency to backflying and tail crashing. For those reasons, without modifications, I do not consider them competitive with good
foils. With modifications I find them quite good, lightly to moderately powered, preferably in low drag situations like on clear ice. BTW Nasa Stars
are 3 or 4 or 5 line kites and I wouldn’t fly them in other than the last configuration.
One's flaw is another one's advantage I suppose. sitting deep in window with loads of pull help in high rolling resistance situations imo.
Personally I haven't experienced back stall unless flying in very light wind with lulls of 0 OR pilot error in failing to keep the kite moving.
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