So I got this HQ NPW9 3.4m for free a few years ago.

I've always wanted to try it on a skateboard on asphalt but the conditions/timing never really came together...until yesterday.

Wind was out of the west at 12mph with gusts to 20. Unfortunately, this meant that I only had about 100 ft of room so there was a lot of back and forth and turns.

...but I couldn't believe how much fun I was having.

Now I'm looking to get a new one (this one's pretty beat up. Hence the free part).

Although the kite was pretty stable, the nose tends to fold in more than I like. I was able to compensate most of it by applying some breaks, but after watching some videos, there appear to be models out there that are more stable and have better upwind.

...so finally to my question...

Can anyone recommend a particular type of NPW that is stable, good upwind and will work directly off the bridle?

Oh, and does anyone sell these (i.e. bigkid (Nasa Star 3, Kitemaker, etc.)?

Thanks.

Hey lunchbox I'm glad to welcome another kiter to the small group who have discovered how awesome longboard and nasa is. First of all I have flown both kite maker and nasa star. They are both excellent. I give the nod to nasa stars if flown off bar and 2 lines. 4 line are good on both. Keep in mind kite makers fly well off bar and 2 line as well but have just a touch of nose collapse from time to time but not bad at all.

Upwind ability is not a factor at all if in an open parking lot meaning with tacking I can use entire lot. If trying to kite a path way I would guess they both only tolerate about a 25% angle less than dead in wind so not bad but not great. Wind needs to be mostly dead on or slight angle if kiting a narrow path.

Thanks for the quick reply Ssayre!

Funny, I've read your posts many times but I never noticed your icon before...cool!

So have you tried the Nasa Star 3's yet?

And where did you get your 2's from (directly from Europe or maybe Bigkid)?

Quote: Originally posted by lunchbox

So I got this HQ NPW9 3.4m for free a few years ago. I've always wanted to try it on a skateboard on asphalt but the conditions/timing never really came together...until yesterday. Wind was out of the west at 12mph with gusts to 20. Unfortunately, this meant that I only had about 100 ft of room so there was a lot of back and forth and turns. ...but I couldn't believe how much fun I was having. Now I'm looking to get a new one (this one's pretty beat up. Hence the free part). Although the kite was pretty stable, the nose tends to fold in more than I like. I was able to compensate most of it by applying some breaks, but after watching some videos, there appear to be models out there that are more stable and have better upwind. ...so finally to my question... Can anyone recommend a particular type of NPW that is stable, good upwind and will work directly off the bridle? Oh, and does anyone sell these (i.e. bigkid (Nasa Star 3, Kitemaker, etc.)? Thanks.

Big Mike out of Texas was in the process of becoming a U.S. Dealer for Born-Kites earlier this year but it never really came through and now he appears to be shuttering his online business. So... I don't believe there is a U.S. Dealer in place at the moment.

What all of us NS2 and NS3 groupies do is interact directly with Steffen Born through his German website. Steffen is a very good guy and a true pleasure to do business with. I own pretty much every kite he sells so I think I can safely say these things. Here is a link to Steffen's website:

http://www.venturi-power.de/index.php?language=en&&&...

You've already heard from Sean (Ssayre) king of the short lining long boarding crew. He is who I would rely on for information in the exact lane you are talking about.

Good luck!

For the npw5 and npw9 version of the nasa wings they need brake input to keep the nose from folding in when flying them as a four line kite.

Susan (npw goddess)

Km4, I've said this before, but I was impressed that larks heading both top and bottom bridle leaders together and flying 2 line worked right away with further adjustment to the brakes to prevent nose 95% of nose collapse. Because your builds are geared for 4 line flying, that wouldn't be critical. I didn't try any adjustments or it might have eliminated 100%. Also the way you do your bridles to leader and knot to attach flying line is very neat with the additional leader length built in so to speak to keep attachment to lines further away. Kind of hard to explain to others unless they have seen it.

Thanks everyone.

I think I'm gonna get a Nasa Star 4m.

I have an old Flexifoil bar that I should be able to use (2 line).

Do I need to run the 3rd line from the kite or can I just take it off if I don't care about 'depowering' the kite?

When visiting the Born site (thanks for the link Windstruck), I also noticed they have a single skin called the LongStar. Any one tried those and if so, how would that work off the bridle and on a longboard?

Don't know about long star. Steve has them. The 4 meter is the perfect size for an average breeze 10-15. The third line is not necessary at all once your confident about the wind speeds your flying in. My wind is gusty and never use the third line. 2 line bar is fine. I did use it starting out until I was confident about what size for wind speed to keep from a tree snatching the kite. Email Steffen to order. Don't try ordering from site. He will send a invoice you can pay on PayPal. The 2.5 size is good 15+ and is a blast as well.

Also, you could modify your 2 line bar easily to accommodate third line if you wanted. Feel free to email me if need be. If overpowered and tight quarters it will keep you from losing your kite.

Cool, thanks SSayre!

So the 4m would be for the beach where's it typically 10-18mph.

What size would be good for 4-10mph? I'm about 200lbs and this would be using the skateboard on asphalt. I was thinking the 7m would be a good compliment because there's almost no rolling resistance but the wind is definitely light. I just want to make sure I'll at least get moving.

Thanks.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Don't know about long star. Steve has them. The 4 meter is the perfect size for an average breeze 10-15. The third line is not necessary at all once your confident about the wind speeds your flying in. My wind is gusty and never use the third line. 2 line bar is fine. I did use it starting out until I was confident about what size for wind speed to keep from a tree snatching the kite. Email Steffen to order. Don't try ordering from site. He will send a invoice you can pay on PayPal. The 2.5 size is good 15+ and is a blast as well.

Lunchbox - for your application I would recommend sticking with the NS3s not the LongStars. The LS is a five line kite with a Z-bridle. It can be flown off of two, four, or five lines, but unless you actively engage the central fifth line you may be prone to back stalls and reverse flying. I've got some video footage up on YouTube of a bunch of these kites in multiple line rigging scenarios should you be interested.

I agree with Sean in that the central third line is optional when flying the NS3s. I made up a custom bar for my NS3 quiver that incorporates the third line so I consistently tie it in but more sessions than not (most really) I never actually use the 3rd line. That being said it has gotten my seat meat out of a sling a few times. Once you get a NS3 you will immediately see how to not use the central bridle lines.

As for size I again agree that the 4m is a great first choice and is a real work horse. Your coastal breezes are likely far more consistent than my inland mountain jank so for the light stuff (4-10 as you mentioned) you could go with the 7 or even the 8.5 I would think. I'm not a longboarder and don't have any experience on asphalt, but with its low resistance you might want to try the 7m. Less kite to deal with too.

If you want to email Steffen Born directly you can reach him at info@born-kite.de. He or his lovely bride Kerstin will answer directly. Once you have a stream of communication going I'd feel free to order directly from the website. I've done that routinely, leaving a personal comment to Steffen in the comments section which he has always personally responded to.

Steffen is great to deal with. Pre-welcome to the other "dark side".

4 / 7 meter combo would be a good choice if only buying 2 to cover the majority of wind conditions.

I will clarify my 3rd line use. I do always have it attached when using long lines and hooked in with the standard 3 line bar. I'm usually dealing with high rolling resistance in grass in the buggy when hooked in so I have to manage much more power than when I'm using short / no line flying unhooked with longboard and pavement. As such, Im using them towards the top of the wind range on grass and while not often, I still have to hit the safety once in awhile when I get hit with gust or conditions change like Steve said. Basically anytime you want to retain your kite in the event something goes wrong, it's a good idea. The third line can be used as a form of non traditional depower but I only use it when I hit safety similar to a third line on a trainer to kill power and retain kite.

Back to light winds 4 - 10. I don't get any consistent usable winds below 7ish winds that aren't accompanied by frequent lulls of 0 so I have no experience in consistent light winds. 4 - 10 is a big gap. I would say 7+ mph the 7 meter would work on asphalt. Below that you'll most likely need larger.

If you have the space, you could probably get wider range out of the ones you have by switching from no lines to 3 or 5 meter lines or longer if space permits. my 5 meter lines allow me to sine the kite nicely when needed.

I completely agree with Sean. Look at your most usable average wind speeds and start there. Shipping is kind of high so you would benefit from squeezing in one more kite if possible. Either a 5.5 or 7 like he said. In the buggy with 20m lines, I find the 4 and 5.5 the most used. It won't change the shipping much by adding another kite because they pack so small and weigh nothing. You will pay way more if you go back to order another kite the next time because of shipping.

I've flown both types of kites on a small parking lot - a 5.5 NS2, and a 4.0 NPW9 built by Susan. I haven't used the NS2 in months simply because I haven't needed that much power and have been busily experimenting with other designs and self builds. I sold the NPW9 since I started making my own kites and could make one that size if I needed it. My conclusion - unscientific though it is, is that the NPW9 is gold standard for NPW performance but not as easy to fly as the NS series of kites. Flying off the handles, or short lines is pretty easy though. Most people use a bar with the NS kites. I prefer handles though.

I don't think you could go wrong either way. Flying off short lines or no lines probably would minimize any performance differences in the two kites anyway. Born kite is very good Company, though the shipping cost is quite high and delivery times are quite long and unpredictable and paypal adds more cost as well. I got the kite made and delivered in much less time at far lower total cost with Susan. In either case you will get a great kite with excellent workmanship and materials. Both weighed in the same per sq. meter when I weighed them. Both kites have their little foibles - backstalls with the NS kites, and the NPW9 are pretty sensitive to brake pressure.

Another option is bigE123 (Ian) who makes NPW21 kites. I haven't seen his work, but I believe it is really great, based on reports I've read. He is overseas, so there that issue as well. I know some pkf members have gotten kites made by Ian.

Back when I was shopping for npw's that is not what I found. Nasa star and susan's were pretty much the same price even with shipping. That was on 7 and 10 meters. That was also when exchange rate was worse. Currently the exchange rate is low. 10% lower than when I bought so I would almost guess the nasa stars are cheaper even with shipping. Obviously I could be wrong and encourage your own shopping.

Don't get me wrong. I think Susan's prices are extremely reasonable. Especially when you start looking into acquiring the raw materials. It's definitely a labor of love. Steffen gets some good discounts on mass quantity I'm sure.

Don't ignore the Peter Lynn Uniq, it is quite good as well. I flew an NPW9 just a couple of times but gave up when it became apparent that it would not fly well (if at all) on the bar that I had. By comparison it is very easy to fly the Uniq single-handed with any bar. Good performance in dirty and light winds, better upwind, also single skin.

Quote: Originally posted by br44

Don't ignore the Peter Lynn Uniq, it is quite good as well. I flew an NPW9 just a couple of times but gave up when it became apparent that it would not fly well (if at all) on the bar that I had. By comparison it is very easy to fly the Uniq single-handed with any bar. Good performance in dirty and light winds, better upwind, also single skin.

Awesome news! I've been waiting for someone to use it on bar. Was it the quad or tr?

Quote: Originally posted by br44

Don't ignore the Peter Lynn Uniq, it is quite good as well. I flew an NPW9 just a couple of times but gave up when it became apparent that it would not fly well (if at all) on the bar that I had. By comparison it is very easy to fly the Uniq single-handed with any bar. Good performance in dirty and light winds, better upwind, also single skin.

Wow! First positive mention of the uniq that I've read. I owned a 4.5m quad uniq but sold it downstream after some dissatisfying early experiences. At the time I had a gap in my single skin FB quiver between my 4m and 8.5m NS3s. PL asserted that the Uniq line was 33% or so more powerful per square meter than traditional FB kites so I hoped to gap this gulf. It just didn't do it for me. My biggest gripe was how much smaller the wind window was than for then the NS3s and how much the pulling power dropped off once you got the kite outside of being sat deep in the pocket during buggying. I've since gotten better flying and buggy skills, so maybe I'd like it more now.

I suspect that if there is ever a Uniq V-2.0 that I would like it. I feel the same way btw with the LongStar. I own all three LS kites but feel they are sort of at a V-0.5, i.e., not quite ready for prime time. I LOVE NASA Stars, now in their V-3.0. Go figure.

Quad, 2.5 and 4.5. Definitely smaller window than regular foil, but bigger than NPW9. I think the 3-line bar model is particularly recommended by PL for longboarding. But the quads are ok on bars too, plus you get the 4-line handling should you need it.

@windstruck Really? If the uniq has a smaller window than the NS3 then something is very wrong, when NPW style kites have been the bench mark for single skin why release a kite that isn't as good? I think that's why the "skin" didn't do it either, it simply was not better than a NPW. Must get my @rse back in gear and get my even higher AR kite under construction, haven't seen anyone push them wider yet so may get to find out why ;-) Or are they just playing it toooo safe at the moment?

Good to hear from you BigE. It's been awhile.

Quote: Originally posted by bigE123

@windstruck Really? If the uniq has a smaller window than the NS3 then something is very wrong, when NPW style kites have been the bench mark for single skin why release a kite that isn't as good? I think that's why the "skin" didn't do it either, it simply was not better than a NPW. Must get my @rse back in gear and get my even higher AR kite under construction, haven't seen anyone push them wider yet so may get to find out why ;-) Or are they just playing it toooo safe at the moment?

A number of things happened with my Uniq Quad 4.5 that put a less than rosy color on it for me. First off, two of the bridle lines had been assembled wrong (too weak) and one of them snapped in the first minute of flight under modest loads. Sent the kite into a death spiral with resulting rat's nest that took 30 minutes to untangle. Big Mike, in business at the time, had been great in working through that (I'd bought it from him). No fault of his of course.

Flown back to back with a 4m Hornet, both off of handles, the difference was striking regarding the wind window, the Hornet was just a much better fly. This was static, not buggying. In the buggy I just couldn't get this kit into a comfortable rhythm but could just park and ride with a 4m NS3. I want to stress that Pilot Inexperience at the time could have seriously affected that comparison.

Anybody that knows me through PKF would surely realize I am not in the business of bashing kites. I really wanted to like the Uniq, but it just didn't work for me. I'd love to try it again on Ivanpah or a big long beach where I had some space to settle into a run and some wind to get used to. Could be a whole other set of impressions.

@sayre I hate to say this but I lost my kite mojo, too much going on in "normal" life and something had to give, dipping my toe back in the water ;-)

@Windstruck, my comment was not aimed at you kite bashing a kite. I was just surprised at the "possible" limitations of a new breed of kite, it was more my own interest in how the "mass" produced single skins are doing. One thing I would say is you do need to be a bit more "in-tune" with them (well I do with mine).

Quote: Originally posted by bigE123

@sayre I hate to say this but I lost my kite mojo, too much going on in "normal" life and something had to give, dipping my toe back in the water ;-) @Windstruck, my comment was not aimed at you kite bashing a kite. I was just surprised at the "possible" limitations of a new breed of kite, it was more my own interest in how the "mass" produced single skins are doing. One thing I would say is you do need to be a bit more "in-tune" with them (well I do with mine).

I think I know exactly what you mean by being in tune with single skin kites. While my NS3s have been virtually out of the bag ready to go (save some fun I've had making up a custom bar that allows me to go narrow with small kites and wide with big kites) I've had to do a decent amount of tuning with my Peak2s to rid them of tip tuck, etc. once dialed in the Peaks are sweet! Don't even get me started with my LongStars; that remains a work in progress. :P

The positive attributes of single skins for me truly outweigh their negatives, plus I like fiddling with gear so it's all good. I hope innovative single skins continue to enter the commercial market, particularly 4.5 line DPs. Peak-3? I would love to see a 16m P3!

In my opinion the Uniq is: (1) what Peter Lynn say it is; (2) better than NPW; (3) a very nice kite. With regards to kite comparisons, the Uniq does, well, exactly what it is supposed to do, given its design. If the design doesn't do what one thinks it should, or if a different design is a better fit for one's preferences, wind conditions etc, that's a different discussion.

Oh yeah, they messed the bridle on the first batch. 2 lines had knotted rather than sewn loops, and apparently the knots could slip under heavy loads (that would never happen on a longboard though). PL sent me the replacement lines, the job seemed complicated (and very annoying), but was no big deal - 15 min (5 min on additional kites).

Quote: Originally posted by br44

In my opinion the Uniq is: (1) what Peter Lynn say it is; (2) better than NPW; (3) a very nice kite. With regards to kite comparisons, the Uniq does, well, exactly what it is supposed to do, given its design. If the design doesn't do what one thinks it should, or if a different design is a better fit for one's preferences, wind conditions etc, that's a different discussion. Oh yeah, they messed the bridle on the first batch. 2 lines had knotted rather than sewn loops, and apparently the knots could slip under heavy loads (that would never happen on a longboard though). PL sent me the replacement lines, the job seemed complicated (and very annoying), but was no big deal - 15 min (5 min on additional kites).

I would love to try one of those on the longboard. I agree about not expecting more out of a kite then advertised, however their initial advertising suggested that these had huge power per sq meter compared to their fb foil counter parts. Do you find that to be true? They equated the 4 meter to have similar power to a 7 or 8 foil if I remember right.

Also, you might have had a better experience with an npw on a bar if you tried the nasa stars. I'm not trying to over pimp those kites but they do perform exactly as advertised in regards to flying off of a bar and use with short or long lines.

With that said, I must acquire a uniq at some point now.

Not sure who sells them. big mike doesn't have them on his site any longer and I checked awindofchange and didn't see them there either :puzzled: Is this yet another single skin kite that must be ordered over seas?

On another note, urban kites have 3 sizes and look very similar to uniq.

http://www.urbankites.de/

I guess the extra pull relative to size is more like 30% increase rather than 80% as you imply. Can't tell exactly how much, don't have 6-8m FBs to compare. I assume PL could tell, if you need to know? (I don't.)

Thanks br44. No, not worried about how it compares other than trying to get an idea of power. On what I use, the 2.5 would work on longboard from about 15-20ish and the 4 meter would do well from around 10 - 15ish. Is that similar wind for the uniq in your sizes? And if I can bother you with one last question, are you flying inland?

@br44 - Forgot about the Peter Lynn Uniq. Any one have any ideas about U.S. dealers, price and flying off the bridles?

@Windstruck - Thanks for the info on the Longstars. Think I'll cross that off my list.

@ssayre and 3shot - Thanks for the sizing info. Thinking the 4m and 7m might be best for the moment. And as stated I could probably add a 5m lineset to get a little more power if needed. Figured I should probably get 2 now so I can justify the shipping.

Would love to hear more about the Uniq but right now I'm feeling pretty good about the Nasa Star...I do like the fact that it's a 3rd generation kite!

Funny...I've been looking at all these little places I could kite around my work and the possibilities that an NPW and a skateboard provides.

Great discussion!