Thread poaching is bad form throughout the Forum, but piling on a For Sale thread like this is beyond the pale. [/rquote]

I'm glad that this issue has come to the surface.
I have been a victim of this several times with items for sale.

Members making statements that kill the possible sale of items posted.
NOT GOOD FORM!

Also members, with only second or third hand but no actual, hands on experience in flying or riding an item listed making derogatory statements that kills a sale for another member.

If you got a problem with a posted item go to another forum here and post your issue
BUT NOT AGAINST ANOTHER MEMBERS FOR SALE LISTING!!!!!

We're all big boys here and most of us have done and will do appropriate study into our decision making process when making a purchase. So should all inquiring minds.

The "For Sale" forum should be off limits for derogatory statements!

I think I am guilty of snipping one of your ad's in the past. Apologised then and will apologise again.

While jumping on somebodies ad' with another similar same product is truly in bad form I think I sniped you in a different way?

It is TRUE that a buyer should educate themselves. That said, a common mistake for newcomers is to go straight to a kite ( or gear ) that is too much for their ability.

I guess my question is : Is it in bad form to comment on how somebodies advertised gear performs from your personal experience? Say .... warning a buyer that they may be buying too technical or not technical enough gear for their need? Reasons you find gear less than perfect, Like how arcs can be a bother ground handling?

I hope to think if I am commenting on gear for sale that I am helping to see it gets in the hands of somebody who won't regret their purchase? I hope to think I never make a comment that would kill the sale completely. I think you felt I did that to you. Again , I am sorry it came across that way.

Sellers have a certain responsibility to see that their gear isn't sold to just anybody who comes up with the cash. IMHO?

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

I guess my question is : Is it in bad form to comment on how somebodies advertised gear performs from your personal experience? Say .... warning a buyer that they may be buying too technical or not technical enough gear for their need? Reasons you find gear less than perfect, Like how arcs can be a bother ground handling?

IMO, No. If the seller is more concerned about losing a sale than hurting a buyer or misrepresenting the kite then they deserve to loose the sale. That is very different from undercutting a sale or redirecting a potential buyer to your ad.

Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner   I guess my question is : Is it in bad form to comment on how somebodies advertised gear performs from your personal experience? Say .... warning a buyer that they may be buying too technical or not technical enough gear for their need? Reasons you find gear less than perfect, Like how arcs can be a bother ground handling? IMO, No. If the seller is more concerned about losing a sale than hurting a buyer or misrepresenting the kite then they deserve to loose the sale. That is very different from undercutting a sale or redirecting a potential buyer to your ad.

I think I land here too. Kites used in the wrong conditions or in the wrong hands (maybe the right hands but too early in their skill evolution?) can be dangerous to fatal so some well placed and qualified comments can at times feel OK for me. I can't comment on Blade's specifics, but I got to tell you all my interaction with him to date tells me he is a stand up sincere guy with nothing but love for this sport and good intentions in his heart.

ive bit my tongue all day
imo our 1st responsibility is to not sit idle by if we see someone looking to buy equipment that they aren't prepared for
same as when we open up our mouths when we see a new flyer looking for a jumping kite
if it kills a sale...so be it...i dont want to be selfish but we are all better off when nobody get hurt

I WILL let newbies know that a 5m ACE is a widow maker. Or any other dangerous equip or activities. That is paramount to me.
I would hope as a responsible kiter and PKF member, that you would not sell an overtly dangerous item to a newbie ,just to make a buck. I don't care where it is on the forum ,if I see it I will point it out.

Appreciate that how this started was my comment that a dude poached a thread to one-up a sale of a near-new kite with a completely new kite for the same price. I just thought that was uber-lame and said as much. We seem to have veered of in another direction. I suspect most (if not nearly all) of the regular contributors on this forum agree with the basic premise that we need to keep people from getting hurt by getting in over their heads. Far far better for a kite to go to a person who can sail it safely than worrying about a sale going south.

Now... Getting snippy to try and sabotage a sale would be a real party foul IMHO. Something like a Peak hater photobombing a Peak for sale thread would be a simple example that comes to mind.

Ok...as far as that snipe, it didn't bother me that much
Person shows up 1st time ever here throwing heat..firm price I thought was too high
I kinda thought they got what they deserved....bring that to CL or Ebay...not here
Sorry...imo

So how does this differ from my AQR and those who have something to say about it?
Guess we all have the right to be a help or a hindrance for or against everything and anything.
As long as everyone knows that I am right and you all are wrong life is good or so you all would think. Just saying.....

I see some differences in venues for placing a sales item.

A forum is a place for discussion and comment ...of a shared interest.

Sales section is a part of the same forum- just as other sections are.....and open to same comments and discussions that ALL other sections are ............... again ...it's a forum, after all.

Any sale in the Sale section is incidental and secondary to the goal of an open forum. An open forum allows It's members to do anything from just view title of post, view actual post, view thread......review thread, and sometimes view and reply with a post. Primary goal is not business but socializing, entertainment and some information.

I won't comment on what members should say or shouldn't in there reply post, or any post. I'm just saying that this is what happens on a forum... including sale sections.


Ebay or Craigslist has no forum. Just a seller and buyer - and those two only- can privately talk to each other w/ no 'outside' input from anyone else. It is private.... unless seller wants to post potential buyer's comment, or questions(on eBay) on item page.

So sale items here will not be off limits to comments, veering of thread , thread hijacking or on a rare(?) occasion, something that may be in bad taste or etiquette from a member...it seems.

I guess the can of worms has been opened.

I see some people want a "wild west" no holds barred anything goes here. Just because it's called Power Kite Forum. Lets all just kill every sale and discussion thread with what ever derogatory statement we pull out our butts. This might be fun. You like Flysurfers? I tell you they are a P.O.S. I've never flown one but I've been told they're crap! Wild West???

The "For Sale" is under "classifieds". This is not a open forum area! Although an area on our PKF, but should be only for the sale of goods and services! Sellers to buyers. A personal, one to one platform. All other areas are forums and open discussion locations I agree.

As far as all you "Safety Sam's" out here, you need to be careful of what you say about another man's property. Don't make bad blood here.
A seller has the responsibility to our sport to tell a newbe that an 18m LEI is not for him! We don't just sell crap here to hurt people do we? A 1.8m Beamer can be just as lethal as that 18m LEI if not used properly!
Where were all you safety minded Sam's when I was getting started? I had to read and study! This is or should be a thinking man's sport. So let people think!

Your analysis of another mans sale items better be based on actual, hands on experience in flying or riding that actual item that you may have owned at one time and not on second or third hand hearsay before making derogatory statements that kills a sale for another member! Members don't do this to members. What ever happened to common courtesy? The "Wild West" huh?

Here's an idea. Maybe we need a "Safety Moderator" that he and only he has the ability to oversee the "For Sale" postings and be the only person that can make the decisions that might be a bad purchase for a newbe or an under experienced potential buyer. No bias to any brand or model.

As far as pricing? No one has the right to dictate if a price is to high. If it sells for the asked price so be it! If that item is overpriced it won't sell. Let our capitalist system work! If you've got a similar item then post it in another thread!

Respect others please!

I nominate WeldnGOD for "Safety Moderator". Do I hear a second?

BTW all manufactures must have product liability insurance.

Has Pansh ever been sued because of their 5m Ace was a widow maker?

I don't believe ANY kite builder builds a "widow maker" and puts it on the market for sale.

The 5m Ace was tested, flown and refined before it left their factory and sold to the public.

It's not nice to knock a kite companies products WeldnGOD! and kill peoples for sale items. Be nice.

A simple fix to the "classified","for sale" is to make it like all the other for sale, classified web sites and the like. Could you imagine Ebay and Craig's list set up as a for sale forum? Oh the possibilities.

Quote: Originally posted by Cheeks

I guess the can of worms has been opened. I see some people want a "wild west" no holds barred anything goes here. Lets all just kill every sale and discussion thread with what ever derogatory statement we pull out our butts. This might be fun. As far as all you "Safety Sam's" out here, you need to be careful of what you say about another man's property. Don't make bad blood here. Where were all you safety minded Sam's when I was getting started? Your analysis of another mans sale items better be based on actual, hands on experience in flying or riding that actual item that you may have owned at one time and not on second or third hand hearsay before making derogatory statements that kills a sale for another member! Maybe we need a "Safety Moderator" that he and only he has the ability to oversee the "For Sale" postings

I think you way missed the point of everyone's responses and find your statements offensive. If I've misread your intentions, I apologize. If not,

although Big Kid is always right...im not willing to make him head mukedy muck and give up my own opinion
this is America...if i have something to say im gonna say it and be proved wrong or back it up...skimtwash has this right
that includes equipment ive limited or no experience with...at this juncture of my flying im entitled to that
personally i think Pansh doesnt test and refine i think they reverse engineer...but will admit thats just a guess based on
how much effort it took for me to get my Adam to fly proper

Youre right pansh kites are NOT made by real kiters thyre mostly bad knockoffs offs of someone elses design I have purchased a few of their kites through the years, a blaze that would collapse while jumping a flux that flew decent and a genesis depower that gave absolutely no increase in power when u pull in the bar. I had a good laugh with that one as it was so unbelievable before I promptly sent it back.

For those that know most everything about life and all it has to offer, here's a bit of info.
Pan is the son of the biggest kite maker in the world. Thus the company Pansh is the sons attempt to honor his father in making him proud. It is common practice to produce other company's kites and then produce a knock off with other colors and a small change in design as to not COPY the original. With it cost Pansh only a few bucks to produce and ship the kite to those wonderful kite enthusiasts to save a couple bucks on buying a kite they end up with exactly what they pay for.
The only research and development Pansh does is to make sure that the kite flies whether it flys well or poorly doesn't make any difference.
It is what it is and there's no changing that. Some of us were Pansh dealers and we are no more. There is a reason why we are no longer dealers. So with all the complaining over the years things have changed a bit because of the bad publicity. That does not change the fact that some of the kites are not really good products, but there still kites and they fly.
And as for me knowing everything, it doesn't really matter. If you want to know about a kite company like Pansh then check with those who used to deal with them.
If you have an Ace kite from Pansh and it flys, your very lucky. If it flys beyond your expertise, don't fly it. I'm sure you've never heard the words don't do that as you were growing up correct?

I must have missed something. I've bought and sold several kites on here and never had any problems. As long as seller clearly describes what they are selling, then you don't have to worry about people chiming in with safety concerns. I'm not referring to any particular listing btw. Now posting something for sale on another persons thread is a different story.

Quote: Originally posted by Cheeks

As far as all you "Safety Sam's" out here, you need to be careful of what you say about another man's property. Don't make bad blood here.

Wait, wait. My ears are burning now....and that's a whole lot of BTUs :wow:.



FWIW: Unless your name is Bob Childs, everything stated here is an opinion.

I suppose if your name is Reggie Hammond or Bart some latitude must also be afforded. Bonus points for the movie references.

ATB,
Sam

Ooo,Oooo..48hrs
what kind of cat is that?...its awesome looking

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

Ooo,Oooo..48hrs what kind of cat is that?...its awesome looking

Reggie Hammond - 48 Hours
Bart - Blazing Saddles
Cat species - Oriental Shorthair or simply The Oriental

ATB,
Sam

I could be way off base here?

There is a BIG difference between shopping and selling on CL, Ebay etc. and shopping on a forum like this. I warn newcomers about this and tell them to at least check on a forum that their choice is correct. Buying and selling used on a reputable forum is inviting the community to take part in your sale. A certain amount of assurance that you are getting a kite and a deal that the member will stand by or be shot down by his peers. To me, they are 2 very different venues for selling? One is peer to peer. The other is all business.

You want to stick to commerce stick to a commercial site. You want opinions and shared interest, Go to a forum! Buyer Beware! There are no shortcuts. You get what you pay for ..... :bigok:

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

I could be way off base here? There is a BIG difference between shopping and selling on CL, Ebay etc. and shopping on a forum like this. I warn newcomers about this and tell them to at least check on a forum that their choice is correct. Buying and selling used on a reputable forum is inviting the community to take part in your sale. A certain amount of assurance that you are getting a kite and a deal that the member will stand by or be shot down by his peers. To me, they are 2 very different venues for selling? One is peer to peer. The other is all business. You want to stick to commerce stick to a commercial site. You want opinions and shared interest, Go to a forum! Buyer Beware! There are no shortcuts. You get what you pay for ..... :bigok:

Yes! What Blade said.

Some things that are in bad taste are saying that a kite for sale sucks and no one should buy it. That's different than cautioning someone they are buying the wrong kite for them.

Offering your kite for sale in someone else's for sale thread. I've even hesitated to offer a kite for sale at the same time as someone else is selling a same or similar kite.

I've had to catch myself and might've even slipped and commented that a price is out of line for what is for sale. The market will sort that out.

We don't need a moderator for sale posts. We've done a great job as a group so far.

Quote: Originally posted by Cheeks

I nominate WeldnGOD for "Safety Moderator". Do I hear a second? BTW all manufactures must have product liability insurance. Has Pansh ever been sued because of their 5m Ace was a widow maker? I don't believe ANY kite builder builds a "widow maker" and puts it on the market for sale. The 5m Ace was tested, flown and refined before it left their factory and sold to the public. It's not nice to knock a kite companies products WeldnGOD! and kill peoples for sale items. Be nice.

#1 we are ALL safety mods here,and have been ,waaaaay longer than your 10 mos. here. (Don't like it ? See your way out)
#2We couldn't care less about a Company's insurance. (Neither hurts nor helps us)
#3 Couldn't tell you, they are in china, so doubtful. But we do have a few members who have been broken up by their junk over the years. (yes, I said YEARS, not MONTHS!)
#4 I can say this as I have owned more than a few Pansh's and still own 2. (a 2.5m legend and the "most dangerous kite in the world" , the little sister to the "widowmaker" ,the 2m ACE).
#5 I am an AMERICAN , and I will say whatever I want! (Don't like it? See your way out)
#6 Don't tell me what to do. You don't even know me.... I don't play well with others. (unlees they want to fly kites).
#7 If Bob wants us to close the for sale section to comments,he will let us know. But since this forum is a donated gift to the KITING COMMUNITY,highly doubtful.
#8 In 10 years,you would be the first to have a problem with the way we roll,except for JONESBAND1988. (There is a good story)
#9 If you don't like it ,you are free to see your way out.
#10 Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!

Quote: Originally posted by Cheeks

As far as all you "Safety Sam's" out here, you need to be careful of what you say about another man's property. Don't make bad blood here. Where were all you safety minded Sam's when I was getting started? Your analysis of another mans sale items better be based on actual, hands on experience in flying or riding that actual item.

#1 OR WHAT???????

#2 Right here on PKF

#3 Unless you are Bob Childs,you got NO say in the matter. And once again ... Or what??

OK,now I am really confused. I just looked @ Mr. Cheeks profile.... With a pedigree like that, how can you be so cavalier with another kiters safety or the image of kiters in general. I would think someone that heavy into kiting would be super keen on safety. Am I missing something?

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Am I missing something?

No, but pedigree does not equal common or good sense.

I eagerly await his response to his "can of worms".

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Quote: Originally posted by Cheeks   I nominate WeldnGOD for "Safety Moderator". Do I hear a second? BTW all manufactures must have product liability insurance. Has Pansh ever been sued because of their 5m Ace was a widow maker? I don't believe ANY kite builder builds a "widow maker" and puts it on the market for sale. The 5m Ace was tested, flown and refined before it left their factory and sold to the public. It's not nice to knock a kite companies products WeldnGOD! and kill peoples for sale items. Be nice. #1 we are ALL safety mods here,and have been ,waaaaay longer than your 10 mos. here. (Don't like it ? See your way out)

Just got the sake of accuracy Davis has been a PKF member since 11 Jan 2012. His former forum id was MyAikenCheeks.

ATB,
Sam

wow

As to my pedigree and exposure here on PKF by either name has nothing to do with the virtues of common courtesy, respect, fairness, honesty, morals, moderation, self-discipline, balance, objectivity, common sense, humility, citizenship, wisdom, caring, compassion, humility, love, ethics, friendliness, generosity, kindness, gratitude, cooperation, balance, forbearance, tact, friendliness, gentleness, tolerance, patience, wisdom, acceptance, harmlessness, consideration, competence, cooperation, ethics, fairness, impartiality, restraint, self-control, forgiveness, harmony, moderation, temperance, peacemaking, prudence, self-discipline, tact, discretion and politeness that some here on this forum have none of!

Courtesy is the gift of treating others with warmth and respect. It means according dignity to people by being considerate, and kind in your dealings with them.

Courtesy helps us to remember our manners, not necessarily in a traditional formalized sense, but in the way we regularly and sincerely express gratitude, thoughtfully acknowledged feelings, and offer true hospitality.

Courtesy facilitates successful interaction and negotiation, generously laying a foundation for understanding, unity and harmony.

Just because we are Americans the above wisdoms still exist in most peoples lives but sadly not in some members on this forum.