A month or so after my last kite purchase and deciding my quiver is complete I've already found something missing. I could use a larger foil both for traveling and for very cold, light wind days on the snow where my pump doesn't want to work.

I absolutely love my 8m Speed 4 and I'm pretty sure a 15m (or possibly even a 12m) would be perfect, but at the moment I can't justify the expense. The right thing to do is probably just wait until I have more money and these kites get a bit cheaper, however I'm wondering what my other options are.

I've often heard that the Speed 4 is basically a newer Psycho 4. While I don't see them up often, they definitely seem a lot cheaper. What would I lose by going with one of these instead of an equivalently sized Speed 4?

I've heard good things about the Chrono 2, but these don't seem to be any cheaper.

I've also head nice things about the Matrixx 2, but I hear their low-end isn't quite as good which means either buying a bigger, more expensive, and harder to pack kite or possibly losing out on some days. These also don't seem to be much cheaper anyways.

So, anyone have any suggestions?

Edit: Another option I've seen is going with a Speed 3. Occasionally I see these going really cheap, but I'm worried the slower turning and more complicated bridles will make this less fun. Can anyone with experience with both kites comment on how big of a deal these are?

the P4's i have have been amazing, love the simple bridle with only 2 pulleys/side! around 8mph i'm doing it and around 12-15mph endless fun and then take it right to the water.

boost, loop and the float really tough to beat, great series , the bar , center thing is weak but all my stuff is custom junk to reduce line bite that make the kite pop like crazy on loops.

12m best all around size, and 15m is my low wind guarantee! either one in 15-20mph is serious magic and will fire starting 8mph.
P4 by far more durable than speed3 , less bridle and bridle lines seem to be heavier line as well. definitely long haul units . so a used P4 should be way better than a used speed3. a speed is light and quick when fresh as they age the edge of performance fades a bit. pulse 2 is option as well, great unit, slower but a user friendly versatile series as well.

the speed 3 reminds of PL phantom, booming float but slow coming around.

P4 more like grunty tube , tough, built for pop and super high mileage, very well behave completely trimmed in.

Wow, that's everything I was hoping to hear about the P4! Next time I see one I'll probably grab it up.

If I just want two foils in my travel quiver do you think the 15m P4 makes the most sense? I love the 8m S4 and it's low-end is pretty low so my thoughts are that by the time I'm overpowered on a 15m P4 I can jump right down to the 8m S4.

P4 is a phenomenal kite. If you can get it in delux material even better and a better all round kite than the Speeds are IMO.

In foil terms anything in the 13m+ range that isn't a fixed bridle or made of some flavor of delux material is not a light wind kite but a fat kid's kite. IMO.

The only time this rule doesn't apply is with rqace foils like Sonics and Chronos.

Matrixx 2 is also a great kite. Very much like the Psycho 4 but better low end, lighter bar pressure and faster turn rate. Feels very much the same though otherwise. In response to the low end not being as good, I would argue otherwise. The 18m Matrixx 2 has about the same low end as a 15m Chrono 1. I guess it depends on your definition of light wind. 3-4kts is light wind IMO.

Even the 18m Matrixx packs down small. Smaller than a 17m LEI by a long shot. Turn rates on all theses kites will be somewhat slow. Although IMO if it's light wind I'm looking to have the ability to ride and not miss a session due to lack of wind and less concerned about snapping quick turns and kiteloops.

:P

12 or 15 whatever comes up first! i would not be too picky , 12 would be choice, ton of range. 15m is just more magic, if you're always seemed to be wanting more get a 15.

I have Spleene X15 and X19 for sale if you are interested .....

From what I can tell the Spleene X kites are closer to the Speed 3 than the Psycho 4/Speed 4. I do not know much about them though.

Few points to above I'd like to add
- Speed3 and Speed4 Lotus are the same geometry wings (to millimeter in the matching sizes if you noticed). Lighter fabric and better bar make the difference
- Speed4 standard/deluxe are advanced kites construction-wise compared to the Lotus but they're not the lightwind wings you're looking for. Yep, only one pulley per side!
- I have a S3 19m Deluxe and S4 10m standard. Less pulleys on S4 are sweet, but no challenges with more pulleys. Doesn't bug me at all.
- Psycho4 is a sweet kite but not as lightwind as S3/S4. Large sizes of anything are not quick to turn, P4 including
- watch Armin Harich's video on 21m S3 testing - he's throwing kiteloops with that kite, so you can rock on Speed3/4
- I haven't ridden anything as lightwind as Sonic-FR in my life. Guys with 21m Lotus couldn't ride when 15m Sonic stayed in the air and had me going (on a door board)

With Speed5 out there'll be quite a few folks upgrading their S3/Lotus wings. P4 might be the cheapest option though, just it won't be as lightwind (by lightwind I mean staying in the air in 4 knots and riding water in 6-7 knots)

Last thing - when you get your large Flysurfer, put it on long lines. The 21m lines are too short for lightwind sessions.

Seems to be a really tough choice between the S3 and the P4 now. Wish I lived somewhere where I could try these things out myself. Bottom end may be more important for me, but I'm not too heavy (~175 lbs) and I intend to use this on land/snow or travelling where I aim to pick a windy spot. So I'm not sure how important the extra low end an S3 offers really is.

The durability that PHREERIDER mentioned seems important. If I'm buying an older kite I definitely want it to have a lot of life left in it.

This uncertainty is making me wonder if I should just hold out for the S4s to start getting cheap. I found myself wanting a larger foil recently, but it could be a while before those conditions come up again. It's really hard to tell with this winter.

I have chance to fly all those kites ......
If you looking for cheapest option it would be a P4. What you need to know is that this is kite that likes a lot of movement and have only small range where you can park and ride , also less power per sizes then others in that category . Not a LW kite in bigger sizes .... I did love my 15m because I am aggressive rider and like to move kite a lot .... but it was a lot less power then S3 and when jumping it will pick you up and drop more aggressively then S3 or S4 with less float . My P4 10m was fun only when wind was really blowing , and use it really ....
Matrixx 2 .... It would be cheapest kite vs age in this group , so you can get one with new kite smell for a good price .... Not as good as S4 but i got few nice jumps on it and it got plenty of power in light wind .... not as much de-power on a bar as Speed series but it works fine and would be most beginner friendly from the list I think
Speed 3 / 4 ..... I did like S3 , but I like way more S4.... It is hard to master potential of those kites , but when you do you get big rewords.... My biggest jumps I got on my 18m Lotus 4 ( above 30' ) and my only complain would be that they should put more deflating valves on it .... S3 you can get cheap now , but most of them are well used since many people use them as one kite quaver .... S4 will be most expensive from list and with biggest de-power .
Spleene .... This was my favorite kite for extra LW conditions .... non of above will stay in air when this one is. My friend got same kite and we was riding when everyone was sitting on a beach ..... lots of power and awesome jumps when you learn how to use it. Many people compare it to S2 or FB kite with de-power bar ..... So .... It would be most powerful kite comparing to above list in those extra light conditions and that what I was using it for , and then I love the looks ..... All that power comes at price .... Slower turning then S3 and less de-power , and smaller wind range

Each kite offers different benefits ..... I love trying different kites and it is hard to choose sometimes which is the winner .... I think all of them are, but each for different rider ... I rode many popular " best kite ever " that I would never buy ..... so it is best to test them if possible and find the one that puts smile on your face ......