So I got in a great buggy run down the beach yesterday. It was also my first use of my Venom 16m. I'm going to say it. THAT THING IS AWESOME! I love it. Super stable, fast and crazy easy to setup, fly, and breakdown. Only had about 10mph wind. Had to work it a little. But once I got some speed built it was park and go. Coming back was a little more work as I had to go a bit upwind. But was still a blast. Overall I got in about six miles before the wind died to about 3mph. Anyway...I'm already thinking about my next fix. My question to y'all is what current model arc would you recommend? I love these venoms but they're getting up there in age. There's still lots of life left. But I'm sure that over the years Arc's have only gotten better. To that extent I want to try something that is more up to date with today's Arc offerings. I.E. Phantom, Phantom II, Charger, Charger II. Synergy? It'll need to be a larger size. I'm 300#. I'm not interested in getting on the water, this would be strictly a buggy engine. I live on the Oregon coast normal wind are low teens to mid 20's. Please share your thoughts. Thank you!

There haven't been all that many changes in Arcs. The only two that are modern anymore are the Charger 2 and Phantom 2. The Phantom is a year or two older than the Charger, and the Charger 2 is 2013. Great kites, but I don't think Peter Lynn is working on updating the Arcs any time soon.

The Phantom IIs have been discontinued but there might be some remaining stock. I loved my 12 m. It would go upwind like crazy and I got up over 58 mph with it in the buggy.

The original Phantom always will be an awesome kite. I just reaquired a 15 m that was my first arc and got its 12 m little sister as a partner for higher winds.

I owned 12-15 and 19 m Synergys. They are powerful, stable and still had the famous auto zenith.

Original chargers I flew twice and either got spanked or left for dead each time. I'll never own one or even launch one again. YMMV. I've heard the Charger II is not tuned so close to the edge and a powerful stable kite with quick turn rate. Auto zenith was gone on original Charger, and I'm not sure if it was dialed up on the Charger II or not.

If you liked your Venom, you would probably also like the Phantoms I and II and the Synergy as well. Charger II looks good but no experience with them.

the newer units, with pulleys have improved elements but very much the same in general behavior , more definitive depower for sure.

if you wanted a newer unit , a 19m(maybe 18M?) charger II will feel very similiar to your V16 in power/range , but quicker and less bar pressure. nice navigator bar set up. you can get a lot of service with arcs, durable, powerful, ton of range. you will not be wondering what kite to put up.

Definitely my favorite kite at the moment. Turning seems a bit slow but I expected that from a 16m. I have been considering dropping the dime on a new kite. The only new kite I have ever had is my 5m Beamer. I like the foils. But I'm growing more and more partial to the depowers. I like my NEO. The Montana is fun but gets a little nervy at times by that I mean it's a bit lifty and I'm not looking to leave the ground. I felt very safe and confident with the venoms. But not having flown any other Arcs. Thought that maybe they were like foils. They continue to improve over generations.

We still got a couple Phantom II's in stock. I can work some pretty awesome deals on the ones that are left. Just give Daelyn a call at the store.

Sounds like a 24m Synergy is calling your name. The 24m was originally made to accommodate the bigger guys that the 19m wasn't able to do for them as it did for the lighter guys.
It can ship out in the morning if you want.:D

Thanks guys. Not ready to pull the trigger just yet. Just in research mode now. I seen the pics of your 24m synergy. That thing looks beast. I'm liking everything I have seen about the Phantom II so far.

Let me ask y'all another question. Has anyone attempted to fly an arc on a high Y line setup? Will it work? I ask because the bar and lines that I got with the Venoms. I don't like it. But I have an extra bar and line set that I got with my Montana 4. Was curious if anyone knows if this will work or not.

Crazyherb has flown the phanny II on double and triple line sets. He sold it some time ago, ask him what he thinks. It works well, just a few tricks to learn and understand to get the most out of it. You just might like this idea.
If you can't reach him, I have his personal info I can email you.

Y line will work but it will reduce the low end wind range a little. Speeds up turn rate, reduces gust handling. Makes getting inverts out nearly impossible.

PL started spec'ing their arcs with Y lines back with the original charger and the Navigator bar. Was not much use here in our gusty conditions and potentially dangerous in some scenarios where you couldn't afford to get stranded.

Which is why I made the Navimod.

The current bars are set up similarly.

My issue with the bar I have is the center hole the lines pass through. It's a small perfectly round hole. So when you pull on the bar it pinches the lines. You cane move the bar in or out while turning. Everything else is fine. Maybe I just need to find a different bar. I'm on the coast and do all my kiting at the beach. Pretty steady winds, not to gusty. I may have to just give the Y setup a try. Wosrt case Senerio, I don't like it. Or I die! Both feet first!

Which bar are you using?

Regardless of whether you go V or Y, any bar with a similar throw as the Navigator bar will be an improvement over an earlier PL. Arcs work much better with long throw bars. Especially with a clam cleat over the trim strap. On Venoms you can get by but you get more with longer throw. On a kite like a Charger, Phantom 2 or Syn, anything but long throw really only touches on the performance available.

The choice of Y over V is not going to change bar bite. But putting a Y line on won't likely kill you. Unless you someone thing kooky with the flag out.:D

You can flare the hole and open a bit , if you don't time will. Opening the hole allows smoother power thru AND during turning to add in power stroke . In light air it's the magic that allows you to stitch everything together . Not sloppy big , just enough flare for straighter line thru hold on turning action.

I really enjoy using my Original Phantoms in the buggy, they haven't let me down yet. Really decent upwind, and can really make some power on the down wind side if you "fly" it rather than park and ride. I have used the Phantom II's as well as the Charger II's in the buggy as and actually preferred the Charger II over the New gen Phantom. The First Venom series was fantastic on pure power, and I feel a much better kite for water sports rather than in the buggy.
I didn't fly either of the new gen kites long enough to decide if I really like the Nav bar set up, still have 3 Phantom II's in the trailer I never seem to pull out and ride. I used to have a full quiver of the original Phantoms but have trimmed it down to the 18,12,&9m as that's all I ever fly. I wouldn't mind trying to find my 6m again, it was cherry but we usually don't get winds here to justify needing it.

So...today was an interesting day. We had a nice windy day here on the Oregon coast. It was blowing onshore. 18-22mph. It's the strongest wind I have flown in to date. I have been trying so stick to the lighter winds simply because I'm still a noob and need to become more comfortable with my gear and technics. I decided to break out my 10m Venom. Initially I struggled a bit. Twice on launch it bow ties on me and once it inverted. Part of the issue is the launch assist Velcro tabs are worn out. They don't hold the lines at all. But eventually I got her in the air...And we're off. I ran 9 miles down the beach and back several times. Whew that was fast! I don't know how fast I was going but it was a bit nervy...enough so that I chickened out and slowed down. That's sayin something for me. Well...after about 5 runs down the beach I decided to brew I out one of my FB Kites. A 3m Toxic. I made one run about 3/4 the way down the beach. Turned around and called it a day. In one run I had 3 OBE's. I would get going, park the kite, all good. We're cruising. Then all the sudden the kite would collapse and fall back the suddenly reopen and I would become airborne in flight. I'm sure it was something I was doing wrong. But at this point. I don't care. That was SCARY! Enough so that I'm strongly considering being done with FB's outside of static flying. Feel free to chime in and tell me what I was doing wrong...or offer to by my Toxic. Haha!

A great example of FB vs closed cell foil.

With more and more practice the arc set up and launch will become faster and easier. We never use the launch tabs here, or the recommended arc launch method as our winds are too shifty and gusty. We clamshell lauch here and use mechanical inflation half the time because it's so easy.

The 10m Venoms are sweet kites. Solid engines and kick butt in dirty stuff.

I love my charger 2 15m, it replaced my venom 2 13m (at first then I bought the 13 back as well) I think the phantoms and phantom2s are great upwind arcs and do really well in a buggy. the venoms 1&2 in the 13m in my book are probably the best of the arcs for all around and if you are riding vertical and want to boost the charger 2 is the ticket or the synergy ( I think the charger 2 should have been called the synergy 2 because it has the good of quick turning, and grunt but has not lost its "gentleness" in regards to auto zenith and stability. I have also found that the charger 2s are less prone to bowites or inverts and if they do I can usually (70% of the time) get it to unbowtie or flip from the bar.
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Is it possible you didn't get a good enough pre-fill in your kite? If I ever bowtie on launch it is usually because I didn't fill enough.

I never count on my launch assist tabs. I just make sure my line will come over the top + fold the spar on the tip I will launch over a bit. I sometimes sprinkle a bit of sand or snow on it to keep it there until a snap the lines. Launch at about 45' to the kite. If you launch from too far upwind things don't go as well.

Feyd, when you clam launch what do you use for weights and where?

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

Is it possible you didn't get a good enough pre-fill in your kite? If I ever bowtie on launch it is usually because I didn't fill enough.

You know...I was thinking that myself. Maybe I was being to impatient and wasn't letting it inflate enough. I'll have to be more mindful of that next time. The downwind side kept flapping around. Probably because it wasn't inflated all the way. The scariest thing for me with the FB kite was that when things went wrong and I'm supermaning through the air I had no way do ditch the kite. At no time during my session with the Venom did I feel in danger or out of control. But that little 3m Toxic scared me. I know people buggy with FB's all the time. Just not sure it's for me. I will say this. I never noticed before but when that Toxic gets moving. She sings. I mean she makes noise! I still got probably 5 miles in on the toxic and I will say. The performance is amazing. Especially the upwind. But at the same time upwind run was when she would collapse fall then instantly re open and try to leave orbit with me in tow.

Fixed bridle takes more skill to use in buggy while hooked in IMO. Less time to react and mistakes are always punishing to some degree. You would do well to regard them with the upmost respect. The upside is they provide a direct feel of control and response that depower doesn't. Not to mention the sheer feeling of terror they can dish out. That can be fun in its own way.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Fixed bridle takes more skill to use in buggy while hooked in IMO. Less time to react and mistakes are always punishing to some degree. You would do well to regard them with the upmost respect. The upside is they provide a direct feel of control and response that depower doesn't. Not to mention the sheer feeling of terror they can dish out. That can be fun in its own way.

Well...apparently I'm not skilled enough yet. Because I got my ass handed to me by a 3m FB, and yet I had a perfectly safe, and fun buggy session with a depower. I love kites. I LOVE buggyin. But I'm not not interested in getting hurt. I'm sure you're right as I build my skill I will be more comfortable with FB's. Regardless, the built in safety features of depowers is paramount to thrill. Your talking to an Airborne vet. I spent 6 years of my life jumping out of airplanes for a living. I've seen combat in two foreign conflicts, And been married twice. There isn't much I'm afraid of. But that FB scared me. (It's a fine line between bravery and stupidity!)
I won't let this experience defeat me. I will have a successful FB session! That just who I am. But...I'm probably going to stick with Depowers if for no other reasons than for the safety features.

3m w/ a bug is such a simple way to go out

Quote: Originally posted by Blitzhound

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre   Fixed bridle takes more skill to use in buggy while hooked in IMO. Less time to react and mistakes are always punishing to some degree. You would do well to regard them with the upmost respect. The upside is they provide a direct feel of control and response that depower doesn't. Not to mention the sheer feeling of terror they can dish out. That can be fun in its own way. Well...apparently I'm not skilled enough yet. Because I got my ass handed to me by a 3m FB, and yet I had a perfectly safe, and fun buggy session with a depower. I love kites. I LOVE buggyin. But I'm not not interested in getting hurt. I'm sure you're right as I build my skill I will be more comfortable with FB's. Regardless, the built in safety features of depowers is paramount to thrill. Your talking to an Airborne vet. I spent 6 years of my life jumping out of airplanes for a living. I've seen combat in two foreign conflicts, And been married twice. There isn't much I'm afraid of. But that FB scared me. (It's a fine line between bravery and stupidity!) I won't let this experience defeat me. I will have a successful FB session! That just who I am. But...I'm probably going to stick with Depowers if for no other reasons than for the safety features.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not either. I switched to depower for my conditions and comfort level over a year ago. i should have kept a 3 or 4 meter in the quiver for static fun and an occasional run in the buggy when I get decent wind.

Some FB will be more stable than others. A quiver of both low aspect and high aspect will give a better choice for variable wind conditions.

My 3m Beamer was a day saver one day at WBB when wind was blowing hard but 'punchy' offshore(flowing over the shore-lined building exacerbating the situation). It recovered from partial or even full collapses to allow continued riding.

Besides the stability...the Beamer or similar low aspect kites don't respond to sudden power changes as quickly as high aspect racing often do. The sudden or instant acceleration from a gust on most high aspect kites can be quite a contrast to the low aspect kite.

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington

Some FB will be more stable than others. A quiver of both low aspect and high aspect will give a better choice for variable wind conditions. My 3m Beamer was a day saver one day at WBB when wind was blowing hard but 'punchy' offshore(flowing over the shore-lined building exacerbating the situation). It recovered from partial or even full collapses to allow continued riding. Besides the stability...the Beamer or similar low aspect kites don't respond to sudden power changes as quickly as high aspect racing often do. The sudden or instant acceleration from a gust on most high aspect kites can be quite a contrast to the low aspect kite.

After having a little more time to reflect. I think your right. I have buggies with my 5m Beamer without it trying to murder me. I am still fairly new to buggyin and while I have been flying static for many years. Flying on the move is a whole other world. it was very frustrating and painful to get beat up on like that. I tried blaming the kite instead of admitting that I tried doing something I wasn't ready for. To be fair comparing a toxic to a venom is apples to oranges. I feel it would be like comparing a sporty sedan to a crotch rocket. I think I just need some more time in the seat with a FB. I apologize for venting my frustration out on you guys. But everyone has givin me some great insight and a different perspective of the situation. Thank you for that. I'm going to chalk this one up to a hard lesson learned. So on that note. What was happening to cause the kite to suddenly collapse like that? It was as if it suddenly lost all air. It would fold up into a ball and fall out of the sky. Then a few feet off the ground BOOM!! She would reopen behind me and away we go! Winds at the time were about 20-22mph. Clean onshore. When it did happen I was running a bit upwind.

if running upwind, the kite was running at the edge of the window and pointing upwind. You stalled the kite. It then crumples and then explodes in a furry behind you when it get fed the good wind in the heart of the window. The way around this would be to run in a saw tooth tack back upwind to keep the sail fed. Your beamer is lower aspect and won't fly as far forward in the window. That's why it was less of problem with it

Squall offshore? Something happening in the distance? 20/22 is blowin hard..usally winds don't turn off or ON!!! from that speed but it happens...more of an offshore thing but gotta fly when you can...I find you always wanna be flying the kite, keeping it moving keeps you best prepared for changes in its behavior...3m kite you can grab park and ride days..or be flying all the hell over the sky...cool stuff

It sounds like overflying. I had a Toxic 8m and it would overfly. Some kites do it, some don't. Toxic is an intermediate kite, which became very apparent to me after getting to know it. I was already well into intermediate when I got the kite, so I had it sorted quickly, but overflying is something that happens to kites with really great upwind. The kite gets too far out in front of the window and nosedives into a ball because it isn't getting enough cell pressure and more air flows over top than under, squeezing all the air from the cells all at once. This will only really happen if you are trying to park and ride. You need to keep a little more tension on the brakes to tuck the trailing edge back. This will make it pull a little harder, but also slows the kite down. You don't want to stall the kite, just tension the lines a little to manage speed. Another way to do the same is to sine the kite up and down instead of just parking it. If the kite is sining up and down while you ride, it won't have the opportunity to overfly and luff because you are keeping speed and pressure applied to the kite and directing it within the window instead of allowing apparent wind to squeeze it out the front like a bar of soap.

Feyd, can you elaborate on your clamshell launch technique with arcs? Can it be done solo or do need a helper??

Good to know Demonknight. You're right. I was trying to park and ride. She was cruising up wind so well I felt I didn't need to sine. Now I know better. The only other time I've used a FB on the buggy is with my Beamer V. (I love that thing) But the toxic does sit much farther forward than the the Beamer. That must be why I hadn't had that issue yet. Thanks for the tip.

Good question Robinsonpr!

How bout it Feyd? I'm interested in this technique as well.