Hey everyone, thanks for the great forum. I've been sucking in information here for the last few hours.

So I ordered my first trainer a few days back and it should be here on Friday. I'm on the edge of my seat with excitement for it, also a fair bit nervous without a doubt. I've had an 84" Prism stunt kite that I've been playing with for years but I know that will likely feel like a paper plate after jumping up to a 3.3m foil. Should be a fun and somewhat nerve racking first flight.

I'm getting into this with an interest primarily in land based kiting. Partially out of practicality as I have easy access to large open fields right down the road, and also because I've never been much for water sports. I get cold too easy. I may change my mind on that one though, I'd love to give kiteboarding a try at some point. Landboarding seems like a ton of fun to me in the meantime, though I haven't found myself a board yet. I may build myself a buggy as I'm a DIY kind of guy.

I'll admit, the thing that pushed me over the edge in buying my first starter kite was jumping videos on YouTube, mostly on a board. I've always dreamed of having some sort of single person slow moving aircraft. For years I wanted a gyrocopter (still do). I want to cruise along a shoreline barely above ground level and just hug the curves. Obviously that's dangerous and reckless even in a gyrocopter (but look up some of the low flying videos on YouTube anyway, they're awesome!). Anyway, I know it's apples and oranges but that's the feeling I've been chasing. After watching some kite jumping I knew I had to get into this sport.

After spending just about every spare hour of my time this past week reading up on safety I now know jumping is just about the worst possible thing I could want to start with, especially on a 3.3m kite. It's still in my end goals, but at the moment I'm just excited to get out there and be tugged around. I'll have to stop and grab a helmet at a bike shop in town before taking my kite out on Friday. Or maybe a motorcycle helmet would be better? I guess every helmet probably has decent safety ratings by law. I'd love to get a board here pretty soon.

So anyway, about the kite I bought. The Flexifoil Control 3.3m is a 3 liner with a bar from what I can tell. I've since read that 4 liners are ideal for learning as you have more control in stalling (is that right?), but honestly even knowing that I probably would have made the same purchase. The Control cost all of $140 which as far as I could find is just about 1/3 the cost of any other similar size kite with 4 lines from a reputable company. Strangely I can't find a single video if that particular kite in action, though tons of the 3.3m Sting. I figure the Control is probably just a rebranded Sting with a different harness setup?

This brings up another question I had. It looks to me like almost every big kiteboarding/landboarding kite out there uses a three line setup and a bar, so why are four line kites the normal recommendation for a trainer? Shouldn't I be getting used to using a bar for when I move up to bigger kites and a waist harness? I'm sure I'm missing some information here.

Final question: Friday when my kite arrives we're supposed to have 10-14mph wind. I won't fly if it's gusty, but assuming it's fairly steady is that a reasonably safe speed for my first launch? I know it's probably a touch fast, but I'm feeling like my stunt kite has given me at least a small head start in the learning curve. I don't plan on being alone when I go out in any case. I've already read that I should bring a stake and weights for setup and takedown.

Well I meant for this to be more of an introduction than a noob question shootout when I started typing. Sorry about that. Thanks for reading and any advice you can give!

Three line trainers are simple and easy to use. 4 lines allow for more precision and maneuverability. The same could be said about a kite equipped with a bar and one with handles. Unless you're flying with handles there is little benefit to 4 lines on a trainer.

The kite you chose is equipped with a chicken loop, is that correct? If so, do you have a harness yet? I'm sure the kite can be flown without the chickenloop assembly (it's rare for fixed bridle rainers to have chicken loops) but I've not seen this kite first hand so I can't say for sure.

Full size kites come with either 4 lines in a V or Y configuration. The Y equipped kites may appear 3 line but where the Y splits, it becomes 4. 5th lines are generally there to actuate the safety systems and rarely offer any assistance in the actual flying functions.

A bicycle helmet will be suitable for static flying. Moto may be a bit hot and heavy for learning.

Winds. Depends on air temps, elevation and pilot weight. When in doubt, start out in low winds and test the waters. 3m of kite in the right winds at the wrong moment can hang a heck if a beat down on you. Most kites come with a recommended. Wind range for a pilot approx 160lbs. These rating are extremely arbitrary but a good reference point.

The rule is never kite alone. If we followed it, many of us would never get out. When you go out, bring your phone and leave word with someone where you'll be and when you'll be back.

welcome aboard!...you will like it here we answer all questions and want you to get to where you want to be
never heard of that kite either but it does have a good Co. behind it...@140$ you cant go wrong
i think a 3 line is a fine place to start but you will want a 4 line of some sort pretty soon...and then another and another...
10mph smooths is perfect to start if its more throw it up anyway and hope for the best?...just dont get hurt...you do want to do this for the rest of your life, make that a long time...your right, have a good ground game before you think about going up....learn kite control, then master scudding then you think about getting light w/ the kite before you ever send it
back hard and look to go up...speak up to where you are someone will meet up w/ you and help out at some point

Hello and welcome to the empty wallet kiters club lol.

Thanks for the welcomes and the answered questions! A lot of info to sort out but I'll get there.

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Unless you're flying with handles there is little benefit to 4 lines on a trainer.

That's good to know. I like the idea of a kite with handles as it would be like flying my stunt kite in that respect, but it seems like it would be more difficult than using a bar when the intention is to get pulled around on a board. I don't know, we'll see how it goes with the kite I've got.

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The kite you chose is equipped with a chicken loop, is that correct? If so, do you have a harness yet?

Yeah it looks that way, though I've only found one good picture of the bar online: http://i.imgur.com/7ipc95z.jpg
When I get the kite I'll have to take a few new pictures to post on Amazon so people can see better what they're getting into.

I do not have a harness yet. I imagine that is something I should probably not cheap out on as I would be wearing it with every kite I buy down the road. Any good recommendations there? That's something I've hardly even started looking into.

edit: I should also mention regarding a harness that I'm a small/medium shirt size and 32 waist. Being a small guy it can sometimes be hard to find good fitting gear.

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3m of kite in the right winds at the wrong moment can hang a heck if a beat down on you. Most kites come with a recommended. Wind range for a pilot approx 160lbs.

I'm about 150lbs. I know that 3.3m could get pretty heavy handed, especially since I've seen videos with guys bigger than I am getting lifted by them. I thought about going smaller to start but I wanted a kite that would be big enough to still see some use in high winds once I've upgraded. It seemed like a good size that I might like to snowboard with in the winter without getting flung into the trees. We'll see how that decision works out for me soon enough.

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learn kite control, then master scudding then you think about getting light w/ the kite before you ever send it back hard and look to go up.

I'm still familiarizing myself with the lingo. What's scudding?
I'm definitely going to be prepared to let go of that bar on my first flight. I have no desire to be breaking bones my first time out.

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Hello and welcome to the empty wallet kiters club lol.

Oh that's not good. How many empty wallet clubs is your average person capable of being a member of at one time? I may have to sell myself to the pawn shop pretty soon if I keep this sort of thing up.

Do not ever jump on a 3m kite. Ever. Really. If there is enough wind for a 3m kite to jump with, you are already minutes away from breaking your legs. Jumping REQUIRES big kites for safety. A 3m kite will gladly pick you up, but it doesn't stay up in the air for long, and it will not set you down gently.

Some of the guys here say don't jump on a kite smaller than 5m, but I personally say don't jump with a kite smaller than 7-8m. You need a big kite to make those soft landings that you see on youtube. Those guys that put out jumping videos rarely put much time into describing the size of kite or the wind speeds and just focus on supercuts of them jumping 10-20 feet in the air and landing nice and pretty a little down wind. What they fail to mention is that most of those videos are shot while using a 8.5m Blade in 20+ mph of wind and they can barely hold the kite down.

A power kite is not a stunt kite. They are different animals, and you will see that soon enough. You want many kites for different wind speeds. For fixed bridle kites, you want a minimum of three sizes, and for depowers, the minimum is two. Don't think that you buy this kite now and "upgrade" later, because there isn't really such thing as an upgrade in kiting unless you are talking about buying the new year model of the same kite. For the most part, you just get another kite. There are few kites that are flat out better than others. Every kite has a place and style that it is designed for.

Scudding is how you manage the power of a kite while on foot. You allow the kite to pull you while you remain standing. You lean back against the pull of the kite, but you aren't fighting the kite, you just let it take you and allow your feet to slide on the ground. Make sure you are comfortable doing this and flying your kite with your eyes closed and not even looking at the kite before you even consider trying to jump.

Thanks Demo. I've been reading enough to know not to be jumping with a 3m. I think I'm about as prepared as possible concerning safety for my first flight. I've been doing hardly anything else the last few days besides reading up on it.

I understand what you're saying about not thinking about other kites as upgrades. That's why I wanted a fairly large trainer, because I know I'll still want to pull it out on days too windy to use bigger kites and it'll be able to pull me around no problem.

Yea your playing it safe w/ a 3.3....not
You will soon see this is a huge kite, not a high wind kite
Sure that depends on what your definition is....but no matter what, not a high wind kite
It's an ass kicker...know that now

I'm like on harness 5?... Still not happy yet, so don't put to much thought into it just buy one in a month or about

Imo

I think you misunderstood me. I know 3.3 is not playing it safe for a first kite, I think it's about as large a kite as anyone makes that still has the trainer name tag slapped on it.

When I say high wind I mean that relatively, as in high(er) than I would be comfortable taking a bigger kite out in down the line. Am I wrong there? Would a veteran not take a 3.3m kite out in wind that is too much for their 7m? I can't put numbers on what I consider high or low wind, I'm sure every breeze will feel like a tornado the first few times I go out.

Exactly...you step your way thru this and see what you feel
Tonight I had perfect on shore 28+ wind..some hardpak sand but not lots and 1hr of daylight
2.9, 3.3 fb, 7.5 dp in the car w/ a board...still thought it was too much and opted for the beers
In the name of safety...relatively
If it was another day same conditions might have felt different
Skills are everything...but this is a gut sport

Good deal, thanks for the advice. I just checked the weather again for tomorrow and it's looking like 14mph at 5pm when I'm planning on showing up to the site, but it drops down to 7mph by 8. Looks like if I wait a bit I could have an easier launch, it might have slowed down by the time I'm unpacked anyway. We'll see what it feels like when I actually get there. I'll have to be on the lookout for a harness as I'd like to start practicing with one as soon as possible.

14mph is fine for that kite. It is about the perfect wind speed for a kite of that size to start pulling. You will get the feeling of what kite power feels like. Just play it safe and let go of the bar before you get picked up or superman forward. My girlfriend broke her wrist while flying my 3.5m kite in 13-15mph winds. She forgot the first thing I told her. Let go.

Well that was pretty fun. First spot I tried to fly at was a corn field at a friend's cider mill, that didn't work out so well. The corn stubs were still standing higher than I had remembered them and that did a number on tangling my lines. Wind wasn't great either even though I was on a rise. I packed up from that spot pretty quick and moved to a local park where a field sits across the street from a moderately sized lake. That gave the wind a nice long alley to kick up into the field and that worked great. I would guess it ended up at a fairly steady 10mph with gusts around 15. For as much as I've read that it would be nothing like flying my stunt kite it didn't end up behaving all that different. That's probably because the winds weren't too strong today and the last time I flew the stunt kite they were ripping at 25-30. The foil was slower on the turns and of course pulled a good deal harder. There were a couple times I got pulled hard enough that I easily could have gone superman but I managed to keep my feet in front of me. It was a good day for a first launch I think. Landing and packing up was a lot easier in the wind than I anticipated, the brake really does a great job. That was nice.

Now I really do want a harness. And a board, and bigger kites. But I'll probably start with the harness.

Thanks for all the help getting me going!

Glad to hear! I would definitely steer clear of the bean and corn fields. If all you got was tangled lines, you are lucky. Corn/bean stubble will shread a foil.

Give in to the dark side. Yes...yes... Let the kiting wants flow through you! The kiters wallet is strong in this one...

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Glad to hear! I would definitely steer clear of the bean and corn fields. If all you got was tangled lines, you are lucky. Corn/bean stubble will shread a foil.

That's good advice. I don't think there was much risk of damaging the kite today as the stalks were old and soft from being damp. Still, I think I'll stick to the park. It was better in every way

edit: I just ordered a 2014 Liquid Force Luxury harness. The handful of reviews I found for it seemed to be favorable and at $49 I figured I can't go wrong. Excited to try it. Now to work out the board situation...Thinking about building one.

Man, that's a great price. Seems to be a decent quality, too. Nice find.

Yeah I was super happy to find it. Until tax season is over I kind of have to hold myself back on purchases and I wasn't looking forward to spending $150+. I got it from realwatersports.com if you're interested, I think they still have more in stock. Only in smaller sizes though, that might be why they're getting rid of them so cheap.

I found a large at $69.00 in brown. Gotta pay delivery charge, though. https://forcekiteandwake.com/liquid-force-luxury-harness-bro...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT5_E8UsE1Y

I'm a tad over 6' and go 190lbs. so I needed to find a large. Took a bit of doing.

Frank

Ah sweet, thanks for the video. If the harness fits well I think we probably both got a steal. Hopefully the size ratings are accurate and they've got a little adjustment room. I was hesitant to order something that's supposed to be form fitting online. The alternative though was to drive 2+ hours to a shop and probably have to spend a lot more when I got there.

Here's the waist sizes as set forth by the manufacturer:

http://liquidforcekites.com/product/harnesses/luxury/

Size Waist Inches
S 30-32
M 32-34
L 34-36
XL 36-38

Frank

Well I got pulled off my feet for the first time yesterday. We were having some GUSTY wind, it was changing direction quite a bit as well. Anywhere between 5mph and 30+ (it wasn't that bad when I first launched but it got worse through the day). I was flying the 3.3m and trying to get moving on the landboard but the wind direction was changing a little too much for me to move for very long. There was a dead lull for a while so the kite was falling out of the sky when probably the biggest gust of the day came along and hit it in the air before I even felt it on the ground. Pulled me along the grass for probably about 50 ft before I let go of the bar and let the kitekiller take it down. I did launch again but pretty quickly another big gust came along and I let go of the bar before things got out of hand that time. That one snapped the bungee on the kitekiller. I called it a day at that. No injuries thankfully except maybe for a pulled muscle in my side that has me a little sore today.

Prior to this experience I had been thinking about how quickly I might realistically be able to hit the quick release on my harness if I were hooked in, I kind of wish I had been yesterday so I could have found out. Things certainly happen fast. I'm not especially confident that I could hit the release on a larger kite before I had been dragged 100+ feet in a gust like yesterday's.

Before the wind started to get so gusty I was flying my new (to me) 6m Peak 1, I'm glad I had the sense to pack that thing away when I did. Snapping the kitekiller on the 3.3m sold me on buying a nice long leash for the Peak. I was thinking at first that I might like to have a short one so it stays out of my way, but I can deal with that inconvenience for the safety buffer of a nice long bungee to give me a little more time to think about if I need to hit the leash release as well. I also may need to find a larger field for that kite. Everything seemed to shrink closer together when I had it in the air. The field I've been using is a soccer field complex, about 250x250 yards, but there are steel frames for the nets that need to be avoided. Not terribly difficult with the small kite but too close for comfort on the 6m.

Quote: Originally posted by NightHawkIL

Well I got pulled off my feet for the first time yesterday. We were having some GUSTY wind, it was changing direction quite a bit as well. Anywhere between 5mph and 30+ (it wasn't that bad when I first launched but it got worse through the day). I was flying the 3.3m and trying to get moving on the landboard but the wind direction was changing a little too much for me to move for very long. There was a dead lull for a while so the kite was falling out of the sky when probably the biggest gust of the day came along and hit it in the air before I even felt it on the ground. Pulled me along the grass for probably about 50 ft before I let go of the bar and let the kitekiller take it down. I did launch again but pretty quickly another big gust came along and I let go of the bar before things got out of hand that time. That one snapped the bungee on the kitekiller. I called it a day at that. No injuries thankfully except maybe for a pulled muscle in my side that has me a little sore today. Prior to this experience I had been thinking about how quickly I might realistically be able to hit the quick release on my harness if I were hooked in, I kind of wish I had been yesterday so I could have found out. Things certainly happen fast. I'm not especially confident that I could hit the release on a larger kite before I had been dragged 100+ feet in a gust like yesterday's. Before the wind started to get so gusty I was flying my new (to me) 6m Peak 1, I'm glad I had the sense to pack that thing away when I did. Snapping the kitekiller on the 3.3m sold me on buying a nice long leash for the Peak. I was thinking at first that I might like to have a short one so it stays out of my way, but I can deal with that inconvenience for the safety buffer of a nice long bungee to give me a little more time to think about if I need to hit the leash release as well. I also may need to find a larger field for that kite. Everything seemed to shrink closer together when I had it in the air. The field I've been using is a soccer field complex, about 250x250 yards, but there are steel frames for the nets that need to be avoided. Not terribly difficult with the small kite but too close for comfort on the 6m.

Yup, those goal post can be stubborn buggers. I ran my buggy into one last year before getting dragged down an embankment. Flopping around like I was being dragged behind a horse trying to reach my release. That's the thing with our sport. Everything tends to be fine and dandy right up to the microsecond when it most certainly isn't. :evil: Not an activity for the faint of heart I'm afraid. :saint:

I was just reading a post on another forum about working on muscle memory for hitting the release. Making a habit of setting your hand on it any time it's possible. I'll probably do that, as I'm not especially comfortable knowing I'm not at all mentally prepared to instinctively hit the release if something goes wrong. I'd have to consciously think about it.

Sounds like an epic day...When things break that's usually a good day
Yea good to know instinctively how to release..but best to avoid that kinda moment

Quote: Originally posted by NightHawkIL

I was just reading a post on another forum about working on muscle memory for hitting the release. Making a habit of setting your hand on it any time it's possible. I'll probably do that, as I'm not especially comfortable knowing I'm not at all mentally prepared to instinctively hit the release if something goes wrong. I'd have to consciously think about it.

You don't have to worry about setting muscle memory on the release. You just need to test it to make sure it works and understand how it works and how to reset. It's much more important to spend time with your peak static to fully understand how it flies and set muscle memory to understanding fully how the kite reacts when flying through the window with bar in and out and playing with the trim setting. Peak 1 only has 2 settings that you set when on the ground based on conditions. 90 percent of the time you will be better off not trimmed.

I've taught a few people to fly the peak and the number one bad habit of new fliers is to pull the bar in when you start to get in trouble which is the exact opposite of what you want to do. You want to set muscle memory and letting the bar out when overpowered. That will avoid potential bad situations before they get bad.

The peak may well have been more forgiving than your trainer on those gusts BUT only if you know how to fly it. It also has the potential for much much more power if you panic and pull bar in when you shouldn't

I thought the Peak might have less of a tug being fully depowered than the 3.3, but I really wasn't sure how much I should rely on the depower to save me. The Peak has significantly more lift than the Control so I opted for the Control by the end of the day because I decided I'd rather risk being dragged in a gust than lofted. If I had been flying the Peak when the big gusts hit and had that bar pulled in even the slightest bit I'm sure I would have ended up dangling from a tree. I'll likely take the Peak out again tomorrow as the winds are supposed to be a lot steadier.

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Sounds like an epic day...When things break that's usually a good day Yea good to know instinctively how to release..but best to avoid that kinda moment

Abkayak, I've been wondering about that. Besides picking my flying weather more carefully is there anything that can be done to minimize the risks of being taken by a big unexpected gust?

Full Disclosure:
I'm a newb, still reading posts and learning to fly kites but
aiming for skis and buggies.
I'm also of the age where I do not heal quickly and want to
proceed with minimum risk of injury.
I've heard some scary sh*t about what a gust on a kite can
do if not released quickly.

My current thought to lessen chance of serious injury is:
1) learn to fly a kite well statically
2) use an AQR in buggies
3) use depower on skis.

Is this approach reasonable?
I have lots of experience with wind power (boats, cats, windsurf, landsailor)
so I am comfortable bleeding off excess power by sheeting out,
kinda like a depower. The bad buggy fixed bridle OBE stories are scary but
learning from others experiences should help and suggest an AQR.

Your thoughts?

Quote: Originally posted by Wind_dog

Full Disclosure: I'm a newb, still reading posts and learning to fly kites but aiming for skis and buggies. I'm also of the age where I do not heal quickly and want to proceed with minimum risk of injury. I've heard some scary sh*t about what a gust on a kite can do if not released quickly. My current thought to lessen chance of serious injury is: 1) learn to fly a kite well statically 2) use an AQR in buggies 3) use depower on skis. Is this approach reasonable? I have lots of experience with wind power (boats, cats, windsurf, landsailor) so I am comfortable bleeding off excess power by sheeting out, kinda like a depower. The bad buggy fixed bridle OBE stories are scary but learning from others experiences should help and suggest an AQR. Your thoughts?

Wind_dog - I think you are smack on regarding your three priorities. I've not used an AQR personally since I use DP in the buggy and I don't believe I've seen or heard about AQR systems for DP kites, rather just for folks flying FB kites with handles & strop. For going mobile I now use DP pretty much exclusively. This is for safety reasons and just general piece of mind. I do enjoy static flying FB kites.

I would strongly recommend DP for kite skiing as well as kite skating should you head that direction. Not taking a thing from the legion of highly skilled FB pilots out there; you guys and gals are admirable in my book; it's just not for me at this point.

fly...i say fb...as often as possible in everything you can thats not over your head...learn to be a pilot
most rush skis or buggy or board to quick...you need to static a lot then move on from there
you will only get lofted if you send a kite back or have it parked overhead...fig out when to let go or when to take the ride you want to do this little by little, of course...controlling falling or obe's is all part of this...i suggest getting good at that as well...theirs nothing like a good story around the campfire

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you will only get lofted if you send a kite back or have it parked overhead...

That's something I wanted to ask about as well...I'm used to parking my stunt kite at apex when I want to take a break and have been practicing the same habit with my power kites. Is that not a safe position? (edit: Did some reading, found the answer to this question. I'll have to break that habit.)

Suppose I do get lofted when my kite is at apex. For a softer landing should I try to keep it directly above me while I'm in the air or should I steer it to the side of the window to try to reduce power?