Hey everyone, new to the forum and recent to kiting.
My aim is to ultimately buggy and maybe land board. Im probably the oldest guy on the forum. Should have better sense than to be starting this at 67,
but good sense was never my strong point.
Im in pretty good shape except for my left hand which I injured years ago. This injury pretty much precludes flying handles, so a bar is the only way
for me to go.
Have mastered two line foils, currently flying a Slingshot B2 which I really like. Bought a group of used kites at a good deal, mainly to get a 5m
Beamer in the lot. I would like to fly this kite on a bar. There are a few LEI depower kites in the group with lines and bars I could use/adapt.
I have read all I could find on flying a fixed bridle on depower bars(here and else where) and have a pretty good understanding on the concept. I have
seen Turbo and crossover bars etc.
What I guess I am asking for is the best route to go with an FB on a bar. Hopefully using one of the depower bars I have.
Ben - Welcome to the addiction! Nice to have new folks wading into these warm, pleasant waters. While I'm a mere pup at 56 I would almost guarantee
that you are far from the oldest on PKF.
A couple of things to consider here. FB kites generally fly like crap on bars, no matter how fancy the bar such as a turbo, etc. Some folks say the
FB kite gets dummed down, I'd say its more like giving the kite a frontal lobotomy. Others may have had better success than me, this is certainly not
an end-all opinion. Second, LEIs are by their nature "lifty" kites. Lifting is exactly what a 67 year old beginning kiter does NOT want to do. The
lifting part is actually surprisingly easy (I know), it's the graceful landing part that gets tricky. Gravity is not your friend in this situation.
For that reason I would steer 500 miles away from LEIs in your personal case. Also, not knowing how new your LEIs are (and I suspect they aren't
particularly new since you picked them up in a group for a "good deal") they may have antiquated (read dangerous) safety systems. If I were you I'd
never launch those LEIs. Third, if you are going to buggy (which is an absolute blast) I would strongly consider hooking up with Jeff (BigKid) on
this forum and getting one of his custom AQRs (automatic quick release) for your eventual buggy. No need to get it before getting your buggy, just
get it to use in your buggy. In short, Jeff's AQR ensures that the kite disengages from your harness if you start getting lifted up out of your buggy
in what is affectionately referred to as an OBE (an Out of Buggy Experience).
So... my 2-cents are that if you want to buggy and you can't use one of your hands you are stuck with a bar. If you must use a bar then you will need
a harness. Also, the kite style of choice is probably best a DP. If you are using a DP in a kite strapped onto a harness around your body then you
ought to consider an AQR.
Go for it! It is an absolute blast to be mobile under kite power. Where do you live BTW? There are a number of super-cool kiting events coming up
around the corner (JIBE, IBX, etc.) and maybe you could go to one for a deep immersion.
I absolutely agree with the above that you should be very careful flying old LEI kites. Unless you are under instruction from someone who knows about
them, they are dangerous.
Your essential problem is that you need to be hooked in to a harness because you can't fly handles, but being hooked to a kite when you are learning
is extremely dangerous. With handles, if you get in trouble , you simply let go. With a turbo bar, you get dragged around the field.
Can you get professional instruction? That would ensure you are safe and allow you to fly harnessed up earlier than would otherwise be advisable.
An instructor would also be able to look at your LEI kites and convince you not to fly them.
I think the real answer to your question is to start flying depower foil kites with a harness as soon as you can, which is as soon as you've got a lot
of practice flying that Beamer . Something like an Ozone Access would be perfect for you as it's very mellow and has no lift and is on handles with
a well designed safety system. It's not a beginner kite though, and being harnessed to one is no place for a beginner .
I have a 5m Beamer. I bought a bar to fly it on. I've tried several different setups. None of them work well enough that I would consider buggyin with
the setup. My Beamer has been my #1 FB kite to buggy with until recently. This is a wonderful kite. Regardless of what some on here might say. But you
will never have the control you need to buggy with it on a bar IMO. Depowers on the other hand. Your harnessed in and when in the buggy you can
literally fly one handed. I have to disagree with jimbocz though. The newer DP's with the more advanced safety systems are perfectly safe to hook into
as a beginner. Especially if you already have flight experience on a two line trainer. Ozone's re-ride system on say an Access or a peak3 with the new
reefline system, or even and Arc with their flag out system. You don't get any safer then these in the kiting world, other then just not hooking in at
all. Like windstruck said. Talk to BigKid about an AQR system. I just hooked my son onto a 10m Venom this weekend. It was his first time flying a
depower. Also the first time flying anything larger than my 5m Beamer. But he had instruction and safety training from me. If you can make it to an
event or meet up with a fellow kiter that can help you progress safely. By all means do it. You will learn more in a day than you will in months on
your own. Plus you will get exposure to all kinds of kites. FB's, DP's, Arc's, LEI's, New and old. You will leave with a better understanding of where
you want to go with your future quiver.
welcome oldben...come hang out w/ us
someone gotta be around you...its easier that way
personally i believe in flying everything i can...you just better know whens the right time
no do overs w/ this sport
Will leave the LEIs alone for now. Was thinking maybe down the line of using one for kite kayaking. Probably never happen.
As to using a bar, Im afraid I have no choice. Im really not looking to do much in buggying but riding down the beach. If the kite is dumbed down it
will probably better suit my style/age. I have read that the addition of a pulley to the brake lines helps, also flying the brakes on the ends of the
handle with the front lines in the center? I have managed to get some(awkward) landboard riding out of the Slingshot B3. If the Beamer on a bar works
about as well I think I could make it work/live with it.
What I am failing to see is if differential braking is fed in with the turning of the bar the kite should turn pretty well right. Also if both brake
lines are pulled simultaneously the kite will back down. I realize the control bar will never have the finesse of handles on an FB kite, but I have to
settle with my limitations.
Also I have a 3line RushV Pro 3m (on bar of course) and I dont much care for it as is. Could the brake harnesses be linked with a loop line to the
center of the bar to make a sort of 4 line kite. This is where the pulley on a center line would come in. If the center line is harnessed, when the
bar is pushed away the kite brakes. If the bar is let go the kites lands like in an emergency. Please check my thinking here.
Im passed the point of needing to do the incredible stuff I see done with kiting. If I can mod these kits so I can ride up and down the beach I will
be a happy camper--er kiter.
Absolutely fantastic that you will be able to attend JIBE. I have wanted to go to that event but live on the other side of the country. Being there
and asking your questions in person when folks can see exactly what you are trying to accomplish will take you 1,000 miles down the road, far faster
than trying to noodle things out on your own.
Please note that when folks are saying that putting a FB on a bar leads to the kite getting dumbed down that this isn't another way of saying that
things are simpler (which is how I interpreted your response). You lose most of the control but none of the potential power. Not a good combination
of effects when trying to keep even a simple buggy run down the beach from becoming a Code Brown moment followed by a flashing light moment... The
folks at JIBE will be able to explain this live so much better than I or others will manage typing out responses. Fantastic that you will be able to
go!
Final thing, do you have anyone in your life you can trust with a lot of your money? You may need to protect yourself from yourself in this sport.
:karate:
You might want to look at the HQ Scout ll. A 3 line FB that flys with a bar. Chris Shultz tuned a new one I brought to JIBE one year and it was great
in the buggy.
They have 3 sizes a 3m, 4m, 5m that should cover most of the wind range. Buy it RTF.
The Scout ll is a step above a trainer kite. It turns tighter, has more power, and is packed with features.
I believe that I was 64 when I had that kite. Now that I'm 70, I have a nice quiver, mostly FB's and a 4m Ozone Access DP I love. A 16m Air Rush and a
12m Slingshot that I haven't
flown but once @.
All us old men need to start an over 60 club! Ted, you in?
See you at JIBE!
NAPKA US 47
District 17 Representative.
Beamer 1.8m, 2.5m A Chekka A few Zebras
4m Ozone Access de-power foil, prototype (for sale)
Wipika gear 5m DP (for sale) PL 8.6m Reactor
Big E NPW 21 6m custom NASA
A couple of monster tube kites I don't have the balls yet to fly.
Ivanpah Heavy with Big Kid mods. Other junk and stuff for fun.
OOBE Field Dirt Diver
"The function of life is to live it, not to exist" Jack London 1916
bobalooie I enjoyed the youtube link. Thats what I am after!
JimSSI thanks for the offer. Will try to see you there! I actually live in Darien and go to SSI to visit my 91yr old Mom the lives there often. The
winds are forcast today for 15-25 out of the W. may go to the south end of Jekyll and fly my 2.1 Symphony for a work out. Kites a wind hog, may have
enough wind today to for it.
Cheeks, I have looked at the Scout. I believe its a crossover arrangement. Thats what I think I have come up with for the Beamer.
My idea to bounce off yall is to use either one of the depower bars or maybe the Rushes 3 line bar. Run the brake lines thru a ring attached to the
center line and cross the right to a point on the left front line and vice versa. When turning with the front line the opposing brake will be applied
to some degree. The brakes will work as killers when a wrist strap is worn. Also the brakes can be trimmed maybe limiting power when necessary.
Nice to know that you're in the neighborhood; Darien is close enough.
Yes the Scout features a cross-over rig. The early ones had the cross-over rig in the control bar (the conventional approach for a cross-over. The
newer ones moved the cross-over up in to the kite bridle in order to reduce clutter in the control bar rig. Both are similar in that they use
mechanical advantage to amplify the brake inputs found in a conventional control bar that has a center-line pulley. It sounds like you have a good
enough understanding of it to MacGyver one of your existing bars.
When flying on Jekyll Island, do not go south of the southern water tower. There is an ordinance that forbids it due to protected wildlife species.
Same thing with walking dogs down there. If you go to the southern water tower (there is improvised parking and a good access path there) and then
head north a few yards towards South Dunes Park, you will have open and mostly vacant space to play.
Looking forward to seeing you on the Island. After the current cold snap, we should start seeing the sea-breezes that come with spring and summer.
Give me a holler if you come this way and we'll meet up.
Fair Winds
Angus
Angus Campbell Coastal Wind Sports
where life is better when it blows!
912-577-3920 new number
Since you asked, I think you are trying to turn a FB kite into a DP kite without the luxury of a pulley system out at the bridles. The point of the
pulleys is to change the so-called "angle of attack" of the kite which is to say it tilts the kite more or less along its longitudinal axis. What you
are describing may just collapse the kite or put it into some sort of crazy spin. Can you find some punk kid to test fly it for you? :evil:
Traction kites can really spank you so please use caution during experiments like this. I suffered a subdural hematoma and could have easily killed
myself last summer doing what I thought was a well controlled flight.
Thanks for the heads up on the wild life areas Angus!
And thanks for the wonderful collection of articles you have written. I have read every one, some multiple times. They have been instrumental in my
success so far.
Thanks for your input Windstruck!
I dont think I will actually have a DP kite with what I am doing as the center line will be fixed by a stopper of some kind. About all I may be able
to do is trim the kite a bit on the brakes. Similar to moving the brake lines up or down knots like on some kites but done by moving what ever stopper
on the center line I come up with. I would hope to be able to back the kite down by pulling the center line which in theory should apply the brakes
evenly.
I agree that caution should be used with an unproven idea. The ratio of brake application Should be fairly small I imagine, too much and it would
probably be quite a spinner! Just enough to improve the turning by killing a bit of lift on the down side of the kites turn. In theory once again the
ratio should adjust by the distance the center line positions the cross over. The farther out the less brake. With out a working model yet, this is
all theory. Experimentation is in my blood!
BTW does anyone know if the sewn in tabs on the back of the Slingshot B3 are for brake harnesses?
Im in pretty good shape except for my left hand which I injured years ago. This injury pretty much precludes flying handles, so a bar is the only way
for me to go.
Not knowing the nature of your hand injury I don't want to be too definite about it but I can't understand the assumption that you can fly with a bar
but can't with handles with no pull at all on your hands. Of course you have to be hooked in to your harness with a strop, the skill which can be
learned quickly and safely IF you:
- use spreader bar with a pulley and learn to fly with one hand and unhook with the same one hand. This is easy if you have a large diameter pulley
with a shallow groove, otherwise you will need some QR,
- use very small kite for the conditions, statically to begin with, and rely on flying it aggressively for more power in the lulls if needed,
- keep the kite low so you'll never be lofted not now and not in the future when you gain the experience to be comfortable powered up.
In addition to what Prussik said, I'd make sure to understand what conditions are safe for you to fly a particular kite in. You should get and use a
wind meter, or even better, learn the beaufort scale and be observant about how much wind there actually is. And how strong the gusts are.
You will be amazed at how many of us are OG's! You will be in good company.
I have been thinking pretty much exactly what Prussik is.
I spent way too much time and money trying to convince myself that a crossover bar was the way to go with FB kites. On one particularly gusty day I
was getting nowhere with my bar. Out of desperation I went to handles and it made all the difference. Not all my FB kites liked a bar. Each kite
needed the crossover tweaked to match. Generally it was a PITA all to dumb down my kite compared to the control offered by handles. Even when the
crossover was working well.
Handles and a strop are potentially less hard on old bones than depower kites with high bar pressure. The only way a bar and FB kite will have lower
pressure is if you fly it hooked in. May as well be hooked into a strop? Before I went DP and I wanted to push it hooked in I created a little pin and
sleeve QR for my strop. Pushing it hooked in to a strop without some kind of release felt wrong. Is wrong by my standards.
If I was you I would strongly consider a strop with a QR over a bar for FB.
You will find that your idea of creating a slight bit of pressure on your back lines to stall the kite will cause all kinds of issues like back
stalling, not reaching zenith and spinning. Don't waist the time. If you want depower on the fly you want a depower kite.
This game is ALL about kite control. Spend less time tweaking and more time flying for best results.
Don't be shy at JIBE! People will be super helpful but it will be up to you to ask for it! I hope you have room on your credit card! It's extremely
hard to avoid buying stuff after you see what's out there at a gathering like that. Try and avoid impulse buying ! Be sure and take a close look / get
hands on a NasaStar kite. They are a great kite for Wild Ones who need Mild Ones!
Hey oldben,
Depending on how committed to the cause you are (or can be, given marital constraints), WBB is two weeks before JIBE.
No need to wait for warm winds locally when you can join us at Wildwood after a short 12-hour cruise up the I-95! Kites galore - even a Turbo Bar - to
try.
As abkayak would say: "jussayin" :bigok:
BTW: 40 days to go to WBB Spring '17 :wee:
Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!
Howard - used to be KC67
Fly: A quiver of Lynx' and Cores (did someone say "Pansh"?), a couple o' Arcs, and a Rev to remind me about control
Ride: PL XR+
Where: 43.857899, -78.941661 and 38.970951, -74.828922
Be sure and take a close look / get hands on a NasaStar kite. They are a great kite for Wild Ones who need Mild Ones!
... or Dutch Flying Objects. These would be an excellent choice to get comfortable with. They stay up in the air in very light wind and with very
light pull. You can't damage them by crashing and they are cheep. And, later on, with some bridle adjustments you can get pretty good performance out
of them.
Wow thanks yall for all the info and encouragement!!
I have a wind meter and am well familar with the Beaufort scale as a lot of my other time is spent in the tidal creeks and sounds in the area. You
have to be very sure of the local winds before venturing across the sound to Sapelo Island in a flats boat!
So Im taking away from this the bar isnt the way to fly I I can help it.
Right now most of my play money is tied up in restoring a Classic 1964 Boston Whaler which I will sell when completed to get deeper into kiting. The
few bucks I have are saving towards a buggy so I need to use what kites I have at present, mainly the 5m Beamer.
I guess I will give the handles a shot. My hand injury consisted of sawing off three fingers on a table saw 20yrs back. They reattached 2 which work
pretty good but dont have much grip. Flying with the bar my right hand takes most of the load. I have a waist harness the came with an LEI. I suppose
I can use this to strop too?
Also in the kite group is an old Cobra 6m Sky Tiger in what appears close to new condition. What about it. Any good/usable to me?
Will check out the suggested kites. When the Whaler sells I can buy what ever would suit me best.
Keep in mind that a 5 meter kite is fairly big and as a beginner who's just working out how to hold on to the handles, you should only fly that in
very light smooth winds. Even more light for the 6 meter kite. 3 meters is the usual recommended size for a beginner.
Does that Beamer have kite killers? You'll need those for sure.
Personally, I would not use the harness and the strop until I had a lot at least 20 hours of flying experience in different conditions with the
Beamer.
Come to think of it, I would hold off on saving for the buggy for now and buy a 3 meter kite to learn with. That will give you a wider range of
conditions you can fly in to get practice. Light winds for the 3m and really light winds for the 5m. You can't do anything in that buggy until you
are really good at controlling the kite without thinking about it, and you won't get to that point by learning on a 5 meter kite if you don't have the
grip. Unless you live in a place with very light winds all the time, you'll find it much easier to learn to buggy with a 3 meter kite as well.
I seem to live in a light wind area for the most part. There are higher winds(I rode out hurricane Mathew-lol) but generally it seems 15-20 is
average. I have two 3m kites but they are 2 and 3 lines. The Slingshot will easily pull a land board but dont know about a buggy in average winds. And
yes the Beamer has killers
Im thinking of just putting the Beamer on a 4 line bar and contending with what I get doing it.
Does the Beamer fly basically on the top handle(needing little brake) or does it require a lot of brake input?
I did look at the NasaStar, very interesting! I started hang gliding in the 70s on a Ragallo wing. That one glided like a brick!
What size will pull a buggy in my local winds range?
Respect for the Ragollo Wing hang glider! I met Dr. Ragollo many years ago and he was a great guy. I used to work at Kitty Hawk Kites and he lived
in the area.
Both of those kites (5 and 6 meter) are far too big for a beginner to fly in 15-20 mph. I'd be aiming for more like 10 or less.
I can't visualize what a four line bar will do for your Beamer unless it is a turbo or crossover bar. A bar from your kitesurfing kites will be
designed to change the angle of attack rather than apply the brakes like your Beamer wants, so your results may not be what you expect. You could
always just fly the Beamer on two lines, but without the brake lines to control the kite, it will be like driving a car without brakes. If you do it
in 20 mph winds, it will be dnagerous. If you do it in 7 mph winds you won't be likely to break anything and you can call it an experiment.
15-20mph avg wind means a 3m kite...5m will spank you
3m kite will pull a buggy in that wind as well...my 1st rides bug and board were w/ that same rush
Your Beamer 5m will work pretty well with a turbo bar. It will not be 'dumbed down' on the turbo bar. And you will not get 'dragged across the
parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- if things go wrong because you've got a top hat release to pull which dumps the kite onto it's brake lines.
I've done many miles on a Beamer 4m and a Beamer 2m with the Ozone turbo bar - it works absolutely fine. It will take a while to get use to as it
does things quite different to a depower (which is still the best option btw). But since you already own a Beamer 5m.....
Here's a vid of a nice arvo out with the Beamer 4m and turbo bar...
If you put the Wrong bar on a particular bar, then yeah, it may be crap. But the Beamer does pretty well on the Turbo bar - give yourself a
couple hours of flying time to get use to it.
Also, 15mph is heaps for a 4m Nasa Star 3. My 4m NS2 pulls the buggy well from about 12 knots up to 20 knots. 15 - 20 would be right in the sweet
spot for a 3.2m NS3. (I have fairly cool and dense winds in southern Vic, if you're in a warmer, drier area, you may need a size up). They are great
kites and in my opinion, the easiest kite to fly on a bar - absolute child's play! Just don't land them in a pile of dead seaweed......
I didn't mention the turbo bar because I have no personal experience with one. I know that not all kites take to them. If John says they are a good
match then it is worth looking into. The Turbo bar acts a lot like you are imagining.
By any stroke of luck are your index and middle finger your strong ones? I pretty much fly off of those 2 fingers. Index above the fly line, middle
below.
Do you have handles already? If so you may want to try them while waiting for JIBE. AS you see not everybody will agree about when you should hook in.
As I mentioned I would put a small quick release on my strop. AS far as the 5m being big and hooking in being scary just use common sense. This game
is 90% kite control and 10% how you ride. The more in tune you get with your kite before jumping in the buggy the easier it will be.
When set perfect your brake lines should have no effect on your kite while flying with handles loose. When fully applied your handles should stall the
kite to the point it backs down.
Not spending too much before JIBE is wise. Hopefully somebody there will have a Turbo bar to try / study so you can make your own. I think you want to
try and get hands on with one of those and a Nasa style wing. Both are good options if you find you want to go to a bar. Same with the buggy. You will
leave JIBE with a much better idea of what kind of buggy will work best for you. Why the expensive ones are expensive and the cheap ones cheap.
P.S. Take a good look at the land sailors as well. Folks who are windaddicted and lose their ability to buggy often see them as a great option. They
are huge fun!!!
That Skytiger is a classic and a power monster. You may want to sell that one on to fund other stuff?
Add me to the most awesome
"Over 62 yo when I had my first buggy ride and it was with a Rush Pro 3m Club"
Not a bad way to get a first taste and immediate addiction..
Went on to some beginner quad line FBs.
Now working on DP single skin Peaks.
I like where this is going.
Always on the steep part of the learning curve.
Gin Shaman2 6m, 12m
Flysurfer Peak1 6m, Peak2 9m,Peak4, 3m
Misc. other kites, never getting out of their bags.
Riding a Libre Fullrace with an AQR on the beach
Riding a Blokart inland when gust factor > 4
And a couple Manta Singles for friends to ride.
Always on the steep part of the learning curve.
Gin Shaman2 6m, 12m
Flysurfer Peak1 6m, Peak2 9m,Peak4, 3m
Misc. other kites, never getting out of their bags.
Riding a Libre Fullrace with an AQR on the beach
Riding a Blokart inland when gust factor > 4
And a couple Manta Singles for friends to ride.
![[*]](images/perspective/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
Ted, you in?
