So after having about 6hrs sailing the buggy at Jekyll Im happy to report
that the cantilever buggy works well and shows no signs of stress at this
point. Its very easy and quick to set up and since I revised the way I carry
the windsurf boom it easily carries all of our beach stuff including beach chairs and the umbrella. A real win with my wife, she doesnt even have to carry the 4sq yard purse she has.

So Im interested in comparing sailing to kiting. I have sailed only NE or SE winds. Maybe a bit more easterly during the seabreeze. I found out right fast that once you pass the motel going north with a SE wind the curvature of the beach will lock you in irons. Similar on the south beach with a NE wind. Never had to push, but close a few times. Im thinking not having the altitude of the kite makes a big difference.

Every time I have sailed(usually noon-4, about the only time we can go) the beach has been crowded.
I dont think even if I could competently buggy with a kite I would feel very comfortable kiting thru the crowds. Do you guys kite on thru?

I can thread my way thru pretty well with out scaring me or the beachies.
I have taken to wearing a boat whistle around my neck to give the walking phone zombies a heads up. Works well. Once I hit a deserted area, usually near South Dunes then I just hang out in that area. Still have to run the gauntlet to get there and back. Little kids scare the ==== out of me.
Always looking for them especially!

What do you guys do with kites and crowds?

I stay home . If you think there are too many people, go with that. A negative interaction with the other beach users is
something no one needs. We all lose.

Agree completely with Ted. I prefer to keep a low profile. Doesn't always work that way, but the places I go at the times I go are pretty empty. The summer is when people come out around here, and it is also the low wind season, so it works out pretty well. I put my buggy and ATB away once I got back from Jekyll. I stick with bad weather, cold and miserable is the best. But whatever it takes to scare away the crowds works for me.

(Not-so-old) Ben - While I'm no beach kiter, a topic that has been discussed quite a bit on PKF is that of "access" and I think it is worth bringing up here again. One of the really big bad things that can happen that affects all of us (as Ted spoke to) is when a kiting area gets closed to our desired activities. Once banned it takes not months but years to get it back, if ever. No surer way to get beach goers pissed off enough to go to authorities demanding kiting bans than flying big dangerous kites in areas filled with people. This same activity would likely piss off actual beach authorities that witness you kite buggying on a crowded beach for the same reasons. I'd think that a beach sailor would be pretty cool to see and not seen as dangerous, but a buggy flying through with a big kite 25 meters out on some lines is a whole other story.

So my two cents would be to suggest reserving your kite and buggy for deserted beaches and take out your sailor when there are folks strewn around.

Something that came to light when fighting to keep our park is that the general observer sees us very differently than we see ourselves.

When the wind is blowing strong and we are out with tiny kites we make it look so easy that we don't appear as big a threat. The reality is this is when we are the greatest threat. When we are out in light winds with big kites and struggling to keep them flying the public get scared. Even though we know our lines are slack and less likely to cut + our kites are giant air pillows it doesn't appear that way to them.

Anytime you kite around 100 outsiders 99 will think we are cool and really know what we are doing. 1 will think we are crazy risk takers ready to take them down with us. Potentially taking it to authorities. 5 will allow their kids to run wild and right up to your gear? 5 or more adults will be clueless and walk right into your path / under your lines.

Another misconception was that we fly all day. We have had to assure the council that we will use common sense and pack up when our park gets too busy.

Parks or beaches it is all about gaining and maintaining respect from the authorities. Being an ambassador for the sport and keeping safe.

Thanks for the input guys!

Thats what I figured. I actually prefer the beach in the fall/winter. Thats when I intend to kite, on a good stretch of deserted
beach.

I have has nothing but positive input from the folks when Im sailing. Mainly because its obvious Im very cautious and proceed slowly around crowds. The sailer is so easy to throttle. Initally I can see Im being watched and assessed. But after awhile every body is comfortable. I mean just how much threat is an old guy.
I have never had anyone come and ask me about sailing when setting up, but get a good many folks with questions when
packing up. Of course I tell them Im just a lowly land sailer, that they really should see the the guys kite buggying

I have learned a lot about buggying with the sailer. Didnt take long to learn which way to turn when coming about, and the max speeds you can do it. Will be instinctive when learning kiting. Seems a converted buggy is a good thing, good for all
occasions. Im hoping that just by removing the mast step(and not the brackets) I can use the bug with kites. If thats the case it will convert with just the removal of two bolts.

Hoping in a two weeks when i am there it will be lass crowed also i can go early morning because i am staying on the beach

On Jekyll, I don't mind rolling slowly on my buggy through the crowds of beach goers with my kite at zenith as long as I see empty beach open up on the other end of the crowd. If the majority of the beach is loaded with people, I wouldn't fly at all.

Quote:

If the majority of the beach is loaded with people, I wouldn't fly at all.

I concur ...

The other day I went down knowing on-shore winds were blowing, even though it was the weekend and the beach would be busy.

I scouted one end that had less people and a relatively open strip of hardpack along the water line( most people prefer to lay on the deeper softer sand farther from the water- a benefit to a rider. But... people lay on hard pack also).

After walking out there ,scouting, and deliberating.... I decided it was reasonable to ride just from this section down. I had a great couple hours and positive reaction from beach goers.

More crowding and or unsteady winds would have had me go home.

You need complete control and confidence when riding close to anyone and you need to respect the crowd. If a mother sees her child run out toward your line of approach and you don't slow down to a crawl in acknowledgement, she's goin to panic and get upset...enough to complain to authorities ... and you will lose out-always.

If you drop your kite down on someone -just once-you have CERTAINLY lost the public's confidence and are now a safety hazard. There's no recovery from that mistake.

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight

On Jekyll, I don't mind rolling slowly on my buggy through the crowds of beach goers with my kite at zenith as long as I see empty beach open up on the other end of the crowd. If the majority of the beach is loaded with people, I wouldn't fly at all.

The few times I have sailed Jekyll has been in the afternoon(seabreeze time of course). What I noticed is that the Great Dunes Park area is where the day trippers(like myself) use the beach, is crowded all day. On either side is usually a less used area. To the north it clears a bit until you get to the motel. Going south the areas in front of the southern motels clears out during the heat of the day. Guess the folks hit the rooms for kids to nap or fun and games. Its usually clear sailing all the way to South Dunes Park. Great Dunes is the choke point. I can usually find a clear path and creep thru not cutting close to any one. The best area is south of Great Dunes when crowded.

I have spent a good deal of time on Jekyll in the winter. You would basically have the whole beach at access. The winds are strong and favor the north quadrant(NE-NW) after a front and south(usually SW) before the front. Not ideal but usable. A winter time Jibe might be doable if folks could make it. Cooler temps are nice!

Folks clump at the access points - lazy 'muricans.... The further south you go, the longer the schlep from parking to beach - so fewer still. I've started parking at the south water tower lot, and except for that one #@%$#! dune, it's an easy reach.

Wow - if I preview post - it duplicates and is not delete-able.

The south water tower is the ticket. Thinly populated with beach goers. The trail to the beach is a might soft.
What we sacrifice to ride...

I recommend you launch and stay around the northern most water tower if you want the largest section of uninhabited hard-pack on the island. You have a good mile or two of sparse population, and the launch by the water tower is pretty easy to get in and out of over the low dune access.

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight

I recommend you launch and stay around the northern most water tower if you want the largest section of uninhabited hard-pack on the island. You have a good mile or two of sparse population, and the launch by the water tower is pretty easy to get in and out of over the low dune access.

Im not too familiar with the beach north of the Holiday Inn. Is that the north water tower you are referring to? Its pretty smooth sailing from Tortuga Jacks to the Holiday Inn due to the more limited access and parking. Dont know how far that is but its a pretty good ways. Like wise once you pass the motels/convention center area it opens up all the way to the S tower. These are the areas where I feel safe to "throttle" it up With a SE wind I stay in the southern half, with a NE the northern half. With the island being shaped like a bow it really affects up wind performance. The sail feels pretty efficient up wind, but if you are way N(vice versa with NE wind) with a SE component you are almost dead into the wind and crawling. Hauls a$$ back though. Maybe one day will get a good true E wind.

I suspect the kites are better up wind?

I meant the Southern most tower, sorry. Don't go South of that tower, because of the Plover nests, but staying near it will get you lots of free beach space.

Yes, park at the southern water tower. The walkover is soft and steep but short. Then fly north from there. This vastly improves your odds of empty beach.

Is it just me or is there less mud down south? The middle portion of the beach in front of the middle water tower seems to be sick with mud, but not so at the south tower.

Philip

I will try basing out of the south end next time, its generally where I wind up anyway.

I agree the mud is in the more central location of the beach. Fortunately I was there with a very low tide and was able to
ride around it. Made wading in the surf a dirty job for a lot of folks.

Thanks for considering a South water tower launch. Please please please don't buggy near a mass of flesh with speedos and umbrellas. Please don't jeopardize JIBE. Next year will be our 11th year.

It appears that Jekyll Island Authority is slowly trying to eliminate JIBE. Plovers and turtles and the elimination of our overnight security of our buggys. In fact we can't leave any residue of JIBE in the park or even beside the park over night. The 10k run and the Triathlon can set up 2-3 days in advance, leave their gear overnight in the park and even let campers stay 3-5 days in the park but JIBE cannot. What's going on?????

Anyway, an accident with a kite buggy or Zooter, at any time of the year, could be the last straw. So please be safe!

I believe that we, as a body, need to be more pro-active about safety now a days. We can no longer be like sand pirates, or like a biker club except with 3 wheels and a kite for a motor. We need to educate the public about what we do and the possible hazards that out sport has that could affect THEIR safety and why THEY should be aware of our areas of operation and the hazards if THEY wonder into our space. We need brochures, signs, flags, Hi-Viz clothing, Hi-Viz markings (tape) on our buggys, pylons and any other safety awareness devices to keep
THEM safe!

Kite buggy pilots have a bad image in the public and with people that have the powers to say NO. We are losing space to operate every day. Beaches, fields, parks, private property and the like.
Sooooo, what can WE do to protect our sport?
We really need to start to change our image and tell the public about why our sport is so addictive. Tell the public what we do for safety and how we can operate safely in their spaces. Show them our NAPKA insurance cards and offer them a "Hold Harmless" contract so we can operate with them. What say you?

One more thing and this is a BIG THING.
Anybody that participates in our kite sport MUST JOIN NAPKA!!! It's for the good of all!
$30 bucks a year for insurance is CHEAP! It also protects the rest of us to continue to fly power kites.
It's just something that we must do, to do, what we do for all of us! Help protect your brothers, your buggy buddies, land boarder, Zooters and any one else that harnesses the wind for fun and sport.

Good points and thoughts D C!

I agree that safety is first. Joe Public generally is pretty clueless about power kiting and its up to us to protect THEM.
I certainly dont sail in the crowds but in the past, launching from the north end have had to crawl thru them.
Im not favoring sailing over kiting(hope to do both) but a sailer is far less concerning/intimidating(IMO) to them than a buggy with a big kite and lines whipping around. Main reason for launching north is the restroom facilities for the wife. We will go south next time.

One of my biggest concerns with most sailers and buggys is the lack of brakes! When sailing/kiting in remote areas its not much of an issue. Different story on the beach. I have brakes in the works for my sailers. I venture that 99.9% of the populace thinks that we can quickly stop, and THEY have the right of way over us. I tell everyone I talk to(at the beach) about the sport this so they can be aware and they seem shocked!

Kiting is sort of a fringe sport(as is land sailing). If the public saw a good bit of media coverage then they would be
more aware, understanding and interested. Almost every one I have talked to about sailing has never seen a sailer before.
Perhaps a JIBE event should be organized around interacting with the public. If liability allows, rides would go a LONG way
to explain why we do what we do. I have a two seat sailer and would be more than happy to take riders.

I understand about the insurance. I had similar thru the AMA when flying R/C(especially Helicopters!) Will it cover land sailing? I will certainly join. Just a thought, insurance doesnt protect the sport per se, It just helps with the aftermath
of a bad incident. Its up to us, to protect the sport, use of areas and the public and ourselves. The government is apparently
regulating land sailing in other countries as there are seat belt/harness requirements, no doubt due to some incidents.
We want to stay under the radar at all costs. Responsible behavior insures that.


Concerning JIBE, JIA is probably favoring events that are more mainstream and have a larger draw($$). Cant blame
them its just business. I still think earlier in the year, even late winter would be a great time. Beaches are almost
empty then. Thats how many events(like Bike Week in Daytona) got started, as a break from being wintered in.
Winds may not be ideal, but probably workable. Just a thought. I will be on Jekyll then more than now.

Thread veer:

Davis, I agree with you. I take every opportunity to chat with the onlookers at my local park - especially the ones with kids - to give them some detail about buggying, and an invitation to learn to fly a (smaller) kite. My park is scheduled to be "beautified" in the next three years which will leave me without a local field (Really? Paved walkways, an artificial stream, and trees are better than soccer fields?), so I'm hopeful that good P-R now will help me find somewhere later.

NAPKA insurance covers our liability during the course of a NAPKA-sanctioned event. A day at the park/beach on our own is typically not covered by NAPKA insurance.
The following thread from Rich covers the details:
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=31362
and here's some NAPKA insurance history:
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=25699

Just my .02

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread...

Education starts with the public being involved. We all know when our events take place but what are we doing to present our events to the public?

Kite festivals all over the country get free TV and radio coverage. They poster the towns and post on social media. Even put ads in most local printed media such as the local news papers,"Penny Shopper" and such type publications. PKF is it, only. A closed circuit!
WE NEED TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS!!!!

Just some ideas off the top of my head..:eureka:... I think that we need to develop a "Kite Buggy Festival" for our events. I believe it would work. It's a format that works for the public.
We need vendors of all type, food trucks, tables full of SWAG. Signs, Banners and flags. Radio and TV. Actually do a race of some kind, give rides, Have a "Show & Shine".:cool2: with all pilots sitting with displays of their buggys and quivers. A car show kind of deal. NASBUGGY

It's going to take some work to pull it off for each bash. We need to get organized! We need to save our sport! I've been an event vendor for 40 years. I'm willing to work with Angus to expose Traction Kiting to the public in the Jekyll, Brunswick area for JIBE.

Any other ideas or thoughts from you guys out there?

For starters, Pair up with the kite festivals more and show some traction demos.. I've demo'd large traction foils at several festivals.. I know Chris from HQ also has as he's used my kites on occasion to do so.. It's all about community.. From someone that hits festivals whenever I can, I know for a fact we'd be welcome as long as the venue itself will allow it..
Here are a few shots of Chris demoing buggying.. OBSKC and the Wright Kite Festival..

Quote: Originally posted by D Cheek

Education starts with the public being involved. We all know when our events take place but what are we doing to present our events to the public? Kite festivals all over the country get free TV and radio coverage. They poster the towns and post on social media. Even put ads in most local printed media such as the local news papers,"Penny Shopper" and such type publications. PKF is it, only. A closed circuit! WE NEED TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS!!!! Just some ideas off the top of my head..:eureka:... I think that we need to develop a "Kite Buggy Festival" for our events. I believe it would work. It's a format that works for the public. We need vendors of all type, food trucks, tables full of SWAG. Signs, Banners and flags. Radio and TV. Actually do a race of some kind, give rides, Have a "Show & Shine".:cool2: with all pilots sitting with displays of their buggys and quivers. A car show kind of deal. NASBUGGY It's going to take some work to pull it off for each bash. We need to get organized! We need to save our sport! I've been an event vendor for 40 years. I'm willing to work with Angus to expose Traction Kiting to the public in the Jekyll, Brunswick area for JIBE. Any other ideas or thoughts from you guys out there?

This kind of festival used to be fairly common here in the UK. The local club would run it on their field and get some bouncy castles and stuff for the kids. They'd also do tandem rides and static flying taster sessions.

There would also be tons of people with RVs and giant single line static displays, and precision flying demonstrations from the Rev people. I haven't been to one in years.

Here's a link with a schedule:

http://www.kitecalendar.co.uk/

Is that going on a bit already? I think WISKIF and the Wright Brothers Kite Festival do incorporate of public kite festival with some amount of buggy riding. Also, isn't there a Wildwood Kite Festival (though maybe it doesn't happen with the WBB happens.)

One way to do it might be to get some approval from kite festival organizers to have a buggy/ATB demo as part of the show. (Assuming the site is conducive to buggy riding.)

The Wright Kite Festival graciously allows a bit of buggy riding during the festival only. I stays pretty low key though..

buggy during the week around 1 ish i had plenty of room also i was very careful with people

The Wright Kite Festival graciously allows a bit of buggy riding during the festival only. I stays pretty low key though..

All that sand up there and you maybe get to buggy some during that event only!

One, two and Rev kiters HATE KiTE BUGGY !!!! We are not like them so they don't want us around! Wonder Why?????????? We're outlaw scum. We are People that have hi jacked the wind for speed and power and not for beauty, I guess. Well... you can't buggy with a 4 line Teddy Bear!!! (yet)

We don't need to be a part of someone else's event but any event that we could be part of would be great but we could do our own thing.
We can set it up, first year would be slow and then participation would grow with vendors and fun seekers. The hardest part is getting a permit! Then it gets a life of it's own and it grows.
No matter what time of year there's always some vendors looking for a show.

The vendors are what pays for the expenses to set up the events. A committee can manage that. We don't need participation by the public 'cause we'll be there. The event gives us some cred! We all have some 1 or 2 line fun kites that we can fly, put some color in the air. 2 or 3 Pop-ups, swag, flags and banners. Hey, we got a festival! Might be something the wives and kids could supervise and run. Fun fun fun
We must organize to save our buggy locations.

D Cheek

I agree that a formal(permitted) festival would be cool. Since this was my first time(and only 1 day at that) I was surprised
to learn that Jibe was more of a gathering than a big event. For years I was heavily into aviation and hit all the major fly ins.
In 1975 we flew down to Lakeland Fla for a "gathering" of planes and pilots. It was basically unorganized, more of a happening.
This evolved in to Sun-n-Fun the Oshkosh of the South.

The public was instrumental in supporting SNF and was drawn not only by the gathering of aviation of all sorts, but by the many air shows and events geared toward them. While all us pilots had a great time talking and looking over the aircraft, I dare say it was the public that supported most of the non aviation vendors(food, trinkets etc.).

Vendors generally have to have permits/pay fees for events, to be profitable the public is needed. To get the public there has to be interest and some form of shows/demos, maybe some hands on in limited ways, is needed as a draw.

There are a lot of events on Jekyll. If a festival could be coordinated in tandem with a major event then it would be fairly easy to get the public involved as a by product. Buggy riders and even land sailors are far and few between. You need crowds
for a successful festival. If the public is not courted or included Jibe would be better left as an informal gathering of folks that
love kiting, kite buggying.

Its not us we are trying to convince to continue to allow the use of Jekyll(and all places) but the public. Its their out cry that will shut us out!

Boy am I sorry that I am late to this thread

Quote: Originally posted by D Cheek

It appears that Jekyll Island Authority is slowly trying to eliminate JIBE. Plovers and turtles and the elimination of our overnight security of our buggys. In fact we can't leave any residue of JIBE in the park or even beside the park over night. The 10k run and the Triathlon can set up 2-3 days in advance, leave their gear overnight in the park and even let campers stay 3-5 days in the park but JIBE cannot. What's going on????? .

These comments are reckless, ill-informed and just the kind of thing that can wreck it for everyone.

The last time that we had conspiracy theorists at JIBE - the ones that went south of the water tower because they thought that they were too good for rules - well, they don't come to JIBE any more and I am reluctantly happy about it.

For most organizations, getting an event permit for Jekyll is very difficult and time consuming. It takes face-to-face meetings with JIA, Georgia Dept of Natural Resources and GA State Patrol. Ours is basically a rubber stamp

For us, it takes a phone call from me, a short form to be filled out, a check for $50 and, new last year, a letter from the GA DNR. (and the DNR could not have been more gracious and accommodating)

This is not because of me, but is due to the overall great reputation of our event participants for being friendly, kind and considerate. JIA has received many comments to this effect and are happy too let us know about it. And yeah, everybody thinks that all that colorful rip-stop in the air is a real hoot.

Since the re-building of the convention center, shopping village and park facilities, Jekyll Island has become a victim of their own success. Every event planner wants a piece and everyone wants special treatment. The Turtle Crawl Triathlon has become a huge event and the fact that we can even get close to it is another nod to us (and, OK, we are a small group).

Just about all other comments from other respondents in this thread are spot on. Remember that the real southern limit of travel is a spot about 1/4 mile north of the Southern Water tower, but an exception is made every year for us via a written letter of variance from the director of the JIA. Still, I too recommend putting in at the south tower anytime and working north from there. As they say, it is apparently close enough for government work as long as someone doesn't make an incident.