I remember when this forum was full of passionate people who would post on many topics and there was good exchange of information and storys told. Now it sees like theres more posts by spammers then real members. Where did everyone go. Is the PKF dying?

Wow I typed in pkf and it went to a porn site. What the heck?
The spammers only come out at night. I'll wait till it's sunny out before I venture back here.

I find it interesting what u guys have clicked on...

It was a heyday here years ago. So many passionate discussions among those that knew and those that wanted to learn. I used to post 3 times a day on average. Now I'll realize I haven't been on here ion days.

Sadly, forums are dying. You can blame or thank social media platforms for that. Younger people probably don't even know to look for them. Older people move on as interests change.

Interest can wax and wane, but there are still people around that are excited about the sport. Plus the archives have a lot of useful info. I think we should just all start posting more often relaying our questions, trials and triumphs. That will attract more people interested in the sport as they see more discussion is happening.

My passion burns strong, but my flying time is very rare. Nowadays I get to buggy only a few times a year. I've lost interest in going to local soccer fields and my bride had me swear off of snowkiting after my freak gasoline fight accident on my aptly named wheels of doom a few years ago. Alvord calls my name, but the camping has me a little worried. IBX will remain an annual much loved event for me. I hope to make SOBB this year in May and again in the fall. I truly loved SOBB this last fall; great people, awesome vibe, and outstanding beach. I've got to get a ship wreck run under my belt!

This infrequent actual kiting has me not so involved as I'd like to be with actual legitimate postings. I realize I still post quite a bit (like I am now!) but it's not as if I'm actually flying all that often. Life circumstances keep me from being an actual pilot more often, but over the years I hope to change that. I love PKF and hope it stays in existence for the long haul. In a few years I may be in the position to be a more frequent pilot!

Windstruck has entirely too much time on his hands. He's been on this forum for 3yrs. He just past my posting numbers and I've been on here for 9 years. :D

This is off the cuff and it's my opinion so please take it with a grain.

As B-Roc stated, forums in many places are dying off due to social media.

Another factor is many of the key players that came into this forum, in its heyday as Bob said, members who made this the one forum that didn't have all the nonsense and BS that other forums possessed, aren't active anymore. Some have had life changes, aged out or even passed away.

Meanwhile, in that vacuum others have joined. Kiting is safer and easier now than it has ever been. I think this gives some of the newer members a false sense of accomplishment.
This in turn causes them to pontificate to people who are slightly less experienced than they themselves are. Responding to newbie questions with opinion and passing it off as fact without actually having put the time in to learn the facts first hand. And unfortunately, it seems people would rather follow inexperienced opinion over hard-won first-hand knowledge. Usually, because it's easier I guess, I don't really know.

But I know it makes me less interested in participating in the conversation. And like Bobby, I've dropped off the forum quite a bit as a result.

Then there's cost of the sport. The sport is pricing itself out of existence in my opinion. It's become an Doctor/lawyer/Tech Engineer/retiree Sport. Anyone not in that pay grade struggles with gaining access to areas to ride and worthwhile equipment. This does open the door for companies like Pansh but Pansh is not a solution. More of a symptom IMO. Though they are making better and better stuff. They remind me of HQ about 10+ years ago. Many of us bought HQ because we could afford Flysurer or Ozone. Now, HQ is nearly the same cost as those others.

If you want to see a forum on its deathbed, go to Arcusers. Huge resource for information but supporting a kite that is fading out and supported by a group of kiters kinda doing the same near as I can tell. I used to worship at the altar of Peter Lynn. I haven't flown any Arcs in years and I've been slowly thining them out of the inventory. Sad but I guess all of this is somewhat inevitable.

For my part I've withdrawn. I just do my thing. I reserve most of my effort for my students and my customers and rarely ever chime in here anymore. I don't have the energy or the time these days. I miss the days of long drawn out threads with the wealth of discussion and debate that they had. We just don't see that kind of engagement here anymore.

This all said this is still a great forum. Its well managed and the participants even today are well mannered and generally respectful. Most people manage to check thier egos at the door and people are respectful, mature and polite here. Which you can't say about a lot of forums.

My 2 cents for whats it's worth.

Forums are extremely cumbersome to the younger generation. Logon, get kick off, logon again, forever to load (may not even load with reduced data area), too many steps to share photos, sharing videos even worse, sharing links and your location. Does not matter how active a forum is to them. There is instant notification /gratification when using social apps.

Quote: Originally posted by zero gee

Forums are extremely cumbersome to the younger generation. Logon, get kick off, logon again, forever to load (may not even load with reduced data area), too many steps to share photos, sharing videos even worse, sharing links and your location. Does not matter how active a forum is to them. There is instant notification /gratification when using social apps.

Yep totally agree there. You have nailed it in one.
We now live in an "instant world".
If I cant have it now it's forgotten about 5 mins later. The younger people I find (in general) have no curiosity any more. If they don't know, just google it and move on. Who cares?

Teaching manual art, I find they don't have the determination to get on with larger projects anymore.
Even jobs of their own choosing, they just want it now.
Not everyone but I must say about 80% it would be. If I cant use it today, it's a real struggle to keep them on task.

I agree with what everyone said about social media taking over, but I think another reason this forum was so popular was we were in the wild west days of kiteing. Every year the kites were miles ahead of the previous and people modded their kites to get every ounce of performance out of them. Now kites are so sophisticated and refined that they are perfect from the factory and the performance is leveling off. I think there are very few people that can extract all the performance of a late model kite. I know I don't even come close to getting all the performance out of my chargers.

Then there is the problem with the lack of people coming into the sport. My experience with people my age (I'm 20 btw) is that it is too much effort to actually go do something. All of my friends I have introduced to the sport drop it after a few times out on the trainer because it takes too much time to drive to the outskirts of town and set up a kite, or it is too demanding to actually fly the kite. It seems it takes a special breed of to be motivated enough to actually go out and fly.

And for the people that say it is price, I don't think that is an issue either. My first depower setup was a 13m venom, bar, harness, and a nice mbs board, and it was less than $500 at my doorstep. There are deals to be had if you have the patience and buy used. But everyone today seems to need it new and need it now.

I think is almost crazy how people think a $1000 kiteing setup is outrageous but $1000 for metal poles to hit balls around a field is normal. Sure some people my not even have $1000 to spare right now, but I think practically everyone could save $85 a month and get a very good beginner setup in a year. Skipping the $4 latte every day on the way to work would do it. I started donateing plasma again to be able to upgrade all my equipment. There are ways realize you goals if you think ahead and have the dedication.

The forum has definitely "changed". I was actually reading on your thread and it almost seemed funny to me that a couple people posted about your experience and a noticible, "ah this is a new guy" responses. And I was beside myself on how many people didn't recognize you or know how long you've been in the sport. Your short absentee was definitely the reason, but I was still shocked.

Even I have lessened my post, but I still check almost daily. There has been a shift in style and kite choice in some cases, but the interest is still there.

I hope you find anmite soon, if you can muster andeal with Flygiy for that 13 venom, it would be a great deal, hope it's still available.

Hope to see you in the spring.

gotta admit plasma for kites makes me feel all warm inside...thats commitment
PKF has kept me in check and from hurting myself more than my acceptable level
for that i will always owe the forum and the next guy...

i won't mention the personal friendships it has spawned...priceless

I learned about kiting on PKF. I'm not on FB, so I guess I'm an old-timer or just bucking the trend that most others follow. I'm fortunate enough to live only a few hours from Wildwood and after reading a post about WBB I decided to go and meet others who are interested in this sport. I've been hooked ever since. I've watched the posts on PKF dwindle, but I still logon to see what's happening and still find out about various events through this forum. I'm a lifer and hope a few others are too.

It goes without saying I'm a lifer too
25 yrs and counting

I think it is due mostly to social media being as huge as it is. Many people just go on Facebook, Twitter, etc for information these days. There are a few of us that still lurk and post occasionally. Perhaps we should make a PKF Facebook page?

Extreme Kites has a Facebook page. From what I can tell they have very little activity. (I'm not on FB, so maybe I can't see it all.)

I have seen the scene locally boom and bust at least a couple of times. I got pulled in by the second wave and times were GOOD!

Our second wave was boosted by sponsorship from all sorts of kite companies. For a number of reasons that sponsorship is gone. Without the sponsors the chances for " pass the kite " and " team riders " and event support have all disapeared. ALL of these excited me and made made what I do feel legit. Not my #1 reason to ride but HOOJ reward. Even just the great swag at the events felt good.

Pablo - PKD went away. Ripsession - many top brands imploded. Scudly and SkyCountry kites never took off. Although we still love them. All went away.
Deano, Angus, Jeff, Big Mike, Van and others just could not afford to keep serving us. Ozone dropping FB and sponsorship only adds to the blow.

The last time it was slow here the sport was growing elsewhere. I am not sure that is the case now.

I agree that social media also plays it's part. The only other kite related sites I visit are kiteoregon and WBB an facebook.

When I joined this site it was to honour Bob Childs and his gift of an add free site. To pay it forward just like Bob. It is a diiferent age but this forum needs to live on.

It became and IS the best place for somebody in the middle of nowhere to get advice and gear. I ride a lot less these days and nobody is giving me the newest kites to demo but I stick around to continue paying it forward. I have the kites and skills I need to fly until I die. I choose to do what makes ME happy. I have long ago given up on growing the sport and ride for mty own pleasure now. You guys get it. Or at least you OG!

Well said Blade.

The scene in the 1990's:



http://www.rainbowsendcam.com/bbt_1994.php

Some local guys who started buggy'n in the 1990's are still around(on the sidelines) and stop to say hi once in a while.

Seems like there was another big wave of kiters in the mid 2000's? I got in late at the end of that wave.

I buggy'd alone for many years. Now the local group is up to 6 people. Not one of them gets online for this stuff. Their ages are: 56, 59, 60, 62, and 64. I'm "young" at 40.

Our 3 newest guys all ride Pansh Flux due to the price. Priced any Beamers or Hornets lately? More than they were willing to pay. Any other kite choices?

This hobby/sport/activity or whatever you call it has a lot of drawbacks to it compared to other activities. Has to be daylight. Must not be raining, needs wind. Most of all, one lives in a windy place AND has a place to ride. Those of you who only can ride seasonally due either to snow, desert to hot, or beaches to crowded or kites not allowed certain times a year; those things would cause me to move or travel if I couldn't do this year round.

I've got a need for speed and the blokart is actually faster in our little riding area they any kite can get up too. I ride circles around those guys. My top speed in the buggy used to be 30 if I could even manage to get out of the 20's for the day. Now I cruise at 30! I used to average ~16 miles traveled with the buggy most days more often then not. Now I average 30 miles traveled! I rode 60 miles one day up and down a 1/4 mile long sidewalk; most of it on two wheels.

If you thought kites and buggies were expensive; well just like how pricey things are in the sailing world; the blokart will make your eyes water! So cost prohibitive it will keep its market small. Guys here who can afford it won't get one either based on principle or it's more than they can bear to pay or are willing to pay.

If I lived up north; I would totally be into ice sailing:



Browse the price on these and it will make the blokart seem like a deal: http://www.landyachting.com/

My first kite buggy adventure was July 4th, 1992. I was in that photo from the BBT in 1994. Someday I will decide to land the kites for good, but I expect I'm good for another 20 years. When that day comes that I'll get a landsailer--probably a Miniskeeter. In short, I'm not going anywhere any time soon.

As to this forum, I still read it, I still like it, but I read it a lot less than I used to. The principal issue for me is that the phpBB software that drives this forum is so hard to use on a small screen. I'd much rather read PKF than Facebook, but Facebook works on my phone while PKF does not. :-( Both reading and writing for PKF are painful from a phone.

I find myself looking at mobile friendly forum software like Discourse. It looks good on the web and on my phone. Reading and composing work well. Do others feel the same way? Would a mobile-friendly forum be appealing? For a taste of what Discourse works like visit https://bbs.boingboing.net/

Howdy to all!

When I started the forum, message boards were the standard and over the past 16 years we developed a massive database of kite instruction, tips, sport history and personal stories. We had a strong community and I'm pleased with what we have accomplished here.

I knew that eventually as time passed, interest in the forum may wane. The sport and even methods of communication may change. The last time I brought up the idea of a facelift or transitioning to facebook, no one was interested (myself included).

But handheld devices are now the norm and I'm aware that this software does not work well on a phone. pbc mentioned a mobile-friendly forum like Discourse. I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB).

If there is a 'next gen' of kiters that want to take this site forward, I'd be willing to let it go to someone willing and able to get it done and keep it going long term. It would take commitment. I'd hate to see it lost on a whim.

The content is very valuable, esp. since it is searchable. Many times I have studied old posts and found really helpful info.

I still check the forums, but definitely not as much as I used to. Eventually I learned that until there's good snowcover land kiting really doesn't work in Pittsburgh. I've mostly been kiting in the water and kiteforum.com seems to have a much more active community for that. I love the community here though and now that winter is arriving I'm checking back more often.

Quote: Originally posted by pkf

I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB).

I don't have the time to lead this, but I might be able to help out with some of the coding with someone else wants to give it a try.

The worst part of social apps is all the valuable information that can get lost in the pile of off topic crosstalk garbage. Something as simple as arranging a meet up to kite with others can be very hard to determine what the consensus was for a time and place.

We try to reign it in but it's just too easy and gets out of hand quickly.

Unfortunately, the transition to Social has had the opposite affect. Without prior discussion on our forum people went out on their own with different apps. At one point we had a couple different groups on Facebook, a couple different groups on Messenger, and a couple different groups on Whatsapp. Our once close group has been fragmented.

Settled down to a couple of WhatsApp groups. Not much activity on our forum now. Sad.


Our local forum is phpbb and more mobile friendly than this one.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

The content is very valuable, esp. since it is searchable. Many times I have studied old posts and found really helpful info.

Yes, searchable and public so important. Facebook is neither of these. I really hate that about FB.

Quote: Originally posted by pkf

But handheld devices are now the norm and I'm aware that this software does not work well on a phone. pbc mentioned a mobile-friendly forum like Discourse. I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB).

I still owe you a response on your last U2U, but bogged down with family holiday stuff until the nightside in about 3 hours.

Let me know if you want to spend some time looking over a XMB -> Discourse or other platfom migration.

Beening thinking about this thread for a while now.




Maybe something cogent to add overnight.

ATB,
Sam

Gosh, I'm kind of ashamed to say I haven't thought about some of the old crowd in ages, even guys I communicated personally with.

I think the global forum has given way to local forums, and "social media" (go on, you know we all mean Facebook) has co-opted those as well. But FB is really crap for long-running discussions and searching anything. And if people don't invite you, you don't know there are groups at all -- I only discovered a local one back home in NZ after the guys invited me to *different* local group, and then someone let slip about the other one :D

Content is gold-pressed latinum -- the loss of foilzone has been a real blow. Hope we don't lose here...!

Where I live, we've had probably 4 years of crap summer wind, and the gentle flowers of manhood don't come out in the cold, so there are some guys I simply haven't seen in ages ... and now almost everyone now has foil boards :D

Such is life. Everything changes :alien:

Quote: Originally posted by pkf

Howdy to all! ... But handheld devices are now the norm and I'm aware that this software does not work well on a phone. pbc mentioned a mobile-friendly forum like Discourse. I'd be open to a software change as long as the content is preserved. It must also be user-friendly to the old guard. Unfortunately, I have no time to invest in such a project - we would need a volunteer to take the lead. Conversion may be an issue as our software is not included on their list of converters (we are running XMB). If there is a 'next gen' of kiters that want to take this site forward, I'd be willing to let it go to someone willing and able to get it done and keep it going long term. It would take commitment. I'd hate to see it lost on a whim.

I too would hate to lose the PKF content. So migration is critical. XMB imposes some constraints in the migration department, but I found a commercial service that does for-fee forum migrations. They can convert XMB to any of 20 forums. Discourse is not one of them, but it is hardly the only mobile-friendly forum.

One forum engine that seems pretty popular is Vanilla. Curious folks can try it out at https://open.vanillaforums.com/. Vanilla appears to have a very similar feature set to XMB if you throw in some plugins. A comparison matrix can be found at Vanilla vs. XMB.

The migration service I found supports XMB to Vanilla migrations. They do them in situ. For the size of PKF it looks like the fee would be $650. (see XMB to Vanilla Migration) While that's more than lunch money, the fee is quite reasonable for the complexity of the task and the value of the product. I'd be willing to buck up a good portion of that fee.

But, all this begs the question, how much distance do you want from this, Bob? I'm less in the sysadmin business than I used to be and it has changed a lot since I moved away from it, but I know that keeping software running is still work. Someone has to read the logs, upgrade the software, fix the backups, fix a data corruption, install a plugin, etc. There is no fully automated system.

How do you want this to evolve?

Regards,
Philip