I have recently heard that we have someone that will instruct power kiting locally for $ . At 1st I thought this was fantastic. Now I'm not convinced that this is someone with official certification / insurance and I'm not sure what to think about it. We have a tradition of teaching un-officially for free around here with loaner kites for folks to cut their teeth on. While it works I don't think it compares to having an official lesson. Kiteboarding on water has taken off and we have a few places we can recommend people go but not everyone wants to surf.

Are there any un-official schools out there in North America or is this a local thing ? Is it a good thing ? How are they run ? How are they run in G.B and Europe ?

I know that we have some folks just South of the boarder that teach on land but with certification. I think Wolf Wolfee is toying with going overseas to get certification. He will be the 1st in Western Canada I know of. I think getting qualified instructors is key to our sport becoming more mainstream. Like kitesurfing has become.

I've wrtitten tha PASA folks a few times asking if they had plans or interest in certifying land based traction kiting. Never even got a reply.

I like the idea of a program. Early on in the 90's I was involoved in the In-line skating scene and was one of the first certified instructors in my area. I valued the program and what I learned from others, but the affordable liability insurance was also a real great benefit. The program borrowed heavily from the National Ski Patrol adn their training curriculum, since in-line skating is so similar to skiing.

It would be nice to borrow from the PASA guys. If they showed an interest...

I just don't believe in the whole "certified school" marketing scheme.

I won't say who, but there are tons of schools and "certified instructors" who can't even kite. With the membership and annual dues, they bought a title which gets them better wholesale prices and accounts.

I'd much prefer to learn something from an experienced rider than someone just trying to make a buck or two off of what should be publicly shared experience and knowledge.

Buy Kite, Buy Buggy, subscribe to and read forum, wait for wind, learn.

Quote:

Originally posted by powerzone I just don't believe in the whole "certified school" marketing scheme. I won't say who, but there are tons of schools and "certified instructors" who can't even kite. With the membership and annual dues, they bought a title which gets them better wholesale prices and accounts.

Then the program sucks, if that's allowed to happen

It's all about setting standards for competency, then only "certifying" those who meet those standards, and failing those who do not. It's also about the only way to get affordable liability insurance, and that's a really, really big deal (unfortunately, in this litigous society).

There's no rule that instructors have to charge a premium. In my sakting days I cleared enough to pay for insurance and a bit more, and spent just as much time teaching at free clinics on a volunteer basis.

Our local PASA certified kiteboarding guys are competent and safety concious. They freely share knowledge with the public as much or even more than they spend time with paid lessons.

I’m having a nightmare time at the moment, the only place in 16 miles of coast that I’m allowed to fly is at the local kite school, you have to pay membership, insurance, you are NOT allowed to static fly, helmets are obligatory and must be worn regardless of preference and a list of rules and regulations that takes any enjoyment away is strictly followed.

This to me goes against all the reasons why I got into kiting in the first place. I’m incredulous that in 16 miles of coast this “organised fun” is the only place that the wardens do not get a cob on if you on with a kite.

The point I’m trying to make is that certified teaching has its place, as there are things that you may not pick up through trial and error but this type of activity should be kept free.

most "schools" have a snobby approach to safety and learning. they can act like they are the dictators of fun. who needs that?

my advice for newbies is don't rush in! :

to befriend a local flier and glean information on the area, conditions, kite selection, advice.... then do lots of research on products with the information you received from the local who has experience.

fly the kite with your new friend in low wind your first time making sure you are familiar with the safety system. then bump it up a notch to higher wind also while your friend is around. within afew flights, you'll be fine on your own.

Yeah, about non certified schools, our local kitesurf spot just had an extremely close call, there's some pilings upwind of the launch, a student somehow got upwind and caught in the pilings with the lines wrapped around his leg and the river current pulling him pretty hard in glacial runoff water. Fortunately the Squamish Spit has it's own "Retrieval" craft and the staff was quick enough to get them untangled before they got dragged under or further injured.

Had the Squamish staff not been there the instructor who is not involved with the spit would have lost his business and possibly his house etc while the poor guy expecting safe lessons could have lost so much more.

Personally I think anyone charging for lessons is foolish not to be certified and insured. There's too much on the line. We've been running a "Club Day" flying GTG at the local park, no cost, just provided a couple entry level kites and it's a group of friends getting together helping each other fly. No cash, no liability, just buddies helping each other out.

" Personally I think anyone charging for lessons is foolish not to be certified and insured. There's too much on the line. We've been running a "Club Day" flying GTG at the local park, no cost, just provided a couple entry level kites and it's a group of friends getting together helping each other fly. No cash, no liability, just buddies helping each other out. "

I agree Pablo.... the info and guidance should be freely shared.

The idea of having a group of like minded people in this area seems to be a fading dream, I’ve been flying for about 18 months now and have not found a single person, I’m still a solo flyer and its beginning to get me down.

There must be someone on this forum that is out there in the north west of England, around Formby, Crosby area

Well, it's taken me a year to get things really going. I spent the first year or so kiting with a buddy, we both got into the sport together, shared gear and such to cover as many conditions as possible. Finally stumbled across another kiter who was also going it alone.

What really got things going was that I started a free intro to kiting GTG at the local park every sat morning. It didn't take long for people to start getting interested, and we all know, once someone picks up a kite it's hard for them to stop. I was getting people started in the buggys, Ken got on board and got people going on the ATB's. So now, there's about 6-8 buggiers and probably 3-4 ATB'ers, lots more people picking up trainers and starting out as well. Today we're running our first "Race Workshop" to see if there's any interest in some freindly competition.

Last night I suggested an idea that maybe meets the middle of the road. The idea is that, as discussed, liability is too much of an issue in actually taking money for lessons. But what is accomplished there is consistency. You can tell someone to call so and so and always get lessons, not on one peticular night from someone you aren't to sure will be there. If someone tells me, show up here at this time and no one is there, well I wont be making much of an effort again will I? Also, for many people, one night a week to learn really isnt feasible.

So here is my crazy plan. If you want to start networking riders together and giving free lessons out, then maybe each area should compile their own list of individuals willing to meet up and give a lesson or two on their free time.

The idea here is that you can give someone your kite shops' number. You can then say, "he (owner) has a co-op list of people who will be willing to meet you when the both of you are free"

So if number one on the list is swamped, you can then move on down the list and eventually find someone. As more people learn this way, I think they will put their name on the list too.

This relieves pressure from the kite-shop owners; who already have plenty on their plate, and promotes friendship among strangers while also recruiting new poeple to your flying area. let's face it, if number 5 on the list lives closer to me than number 8 does, I will most likely be flying with number 5 huh.

So what do you guys think? Is there anything you would add or takeaway?

awesome idea ! that's a kite-community i'd like to be part of !

of course the people who make bundles of money off of lessons will hate it....

I like the phone list idea a lot ! One of the main problems around here is that some of the folks are getting understandably tired of teaching. We try to suggest to new folks that Saturday mornings are the time we are most open to teaching but to come by anytime because the crew is generally always helpfull. The phone list could really work around here.
Last thing I want to see is us go the way of Great Britian and OVER restrict the whole thing.

Screw 'em!!! Did any of us get into kiting to make somebody else money???? NO!!! We got into it beacuse for those of us lucky enough to share it, it's a great feeling sharing your passion with others. And for me, knowing that I enriched someone else's life, and not by getting rich off them is even better. Teaching the kite lessons makes you rich in life, more than enough payment for me



If both of our local kite-shop owners can take their time and give advice once a week at the park (even if no-one asked for it, wink wink), then so can every other joe-schmoe who thinks it's everyone else's duty to get people involved. If you don't have enough people to fly with you (generalizing here), then you only got one place to look, the mirror my friend.

(Now this is aimed at land here)
If trainers don't like the money lost on the lessons, then maybe they should consider actully selling a kite or two to make up the loss, I mean come on.......
Who actually only teaches kites for a living? It would seem (land) Instructors are mostly kite-shop owners looking for an extra dime. Honestly it's pretty sketchy sounding in my book. I enjoy my flying time; but not so sure I would have payed to learn it,at least on land that is, considering I did teach myself mostly.

(ACampbell)
Angus, I've read many of your posts and it seems you are a pretty intelligent guy. Now factor in your kite-shop and I have to wonder, how is it you can tell us that a certified PASA intsructor gives the same knowledge to the same general public for free as well as charging them??? Slightly confused here. I know if I took my own personal time to become qualified to teach something that I expect compensation for, why in my right mind would I give it out for free too.?
How does he decide whom amongst the general public is deserving of free advice/lessons and those who aren't? The clothes they wear??? This seems a bit contadictory to what I thought kiting was all about.

EDIT: As far as insurance goes. Yes it would be nice to have SUPPLEMENTARY (that's what it is) insurance, but it's not NECESSARY. We are all here for the most part adults, with adult responsiblities. One of those is insurance, and if you can't afford your own insurance, what business do you have flying a power kite in the first place?

Are you allowed to drive your car without insurance? Do we get to say, well there should be a universal all-encompassing insurance plan, but because there "should be" and "there's not", does this mean no car insurance? No, you bite the bullet and get it anyways.

I once heard that buying a quality lineset was the price or the fee for flying kites, but really it's your own insurance.

Preach it Brother !!

The insurance I was speaking of was strictly kite lesson related, in Canada it's something like $10,000 a year for insurance. Completely insane. I know most of our local kitesurf instructors, the guys are top knotch. And they most certainly aren't getting rich off the business, it's more of a love of a way of life. As far as the water side of the sport goes, lessons are a great thing and I encourage anyone looking to get into kitesurfing to look for decent lessons.

Funny thing is though, by the time we finish teaching someone to fly a foil on land, they're perfect to slide into kitesurfing lessons. most of the instructors are happy enough to be spending their time on the water instead of some parking lot trying to teach someone how to keep a kite in the air.

I'd be fine with sending someone to a local guy for more advanced buggy/atb lessons as long as I know that the fellow teaching it is certified and insured. More for his own safety though. I know a fair number of business men, one guy got sued for over 2million because he forgot to tell people to check one bolt for tightness every so often in the instructions manual. Something that most people would do automatically, but someone didn't, got hurt badly and he got sued, thankfully he was insured.


Anyhoo, had a blast today, we ran a buggy workshop, kited for 6 hrs straight, showed some new people how to buggy, showed some beginner buggiers how to round a race course, all in all, everyone had fun, everyone learned something including myself. The community grows a bit bigger, that's the main thing.

I never said anyone was randomly giving out free lessons. None of the locals kite for a living. They all have "regular " jobs. We all work to promote kiting in our community, and that means doing demos at events, taking time wth the public to answer questions, and yes, occasional pro-bono lessons.

I'm the only mercinary in the lot- I actually am trying (and succeeding) in making part of my living in the kite biz.

We are very fortunate here in Jekyll Island. It's a wonderful public beach and the local state authority that runs it not only allows kiting, but activley promotes it and us. We work hard to preserve that.

Community involvment is allways good for any biz.

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Originally posted by Kiteboarder2B Screw 'em!!! Did any of us get into kiting to make somebody else money???? NO!!! We got into it beacuse for those of us lucky enough to share it, it's a great feeling sharing your passion with others. And for me, knowing that I enriched someone else's life, and not by getting rich off them is even better. Teaching the kite lessons makes you rich in life, more than enough payment for me I second that emotion! :cool2:

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell I never said anyone was randomly giving out free lessons.

OK, Well now I am really confused.

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Originally posted by acampbell There's no rule that instructors have to charge a premium. In my sakting days I cleared enough to pay for insurance and a bit more, and spent just as much time teaching at free clinics on a volunteer basis. Our local PASA certified kiteboarding guys are competent and safety concious. They freely share knowledge with the public as much or even more than they spend time with paid lessons.

Look, man. I ain't tryin to bust your chops here. I totally acknowledge the need for proffessional water lessons. But you said it yourself, that instructors freely share knowledge with the public, sometimes even more than with those that paid for such knowledge. I again ask, who becomes deserving of such knowledge at such cheap rates? I thought the whole kiting community deserved that.

Pardon me, I was always under the assumption that imparting knowledge on an ignorant mind was considered giving a lesson. I've been known to be wrong before though....

I think it's great, as most of us here probably do, that you can make a living off of kites Angus. More power to you. I think most of us know that you, Kent, Corey,and whoever else I left out, are not in it for getting rich. In fact just the opposite. I just pointed out that land-based kiting lessons seems like a kite-dealers way of putting some extra food on the table. And if people want to support that, then more power to them too.

I will however point out that with the demand for land-based lessons will come, eventually, more regulation. I think the last thing we want is the government MORE involved in our sport, like the U.K. has gotten themselves into.

That is unless you fancy 2 licenses in your wallet. One for driving and one for flying.

Ah... Your talking about licensure, and that never came up on this thread. We have been talking about certification here.

Licensure is government. Certification is industry.

When an activity is self regulated and insured, government gernerally stays away.

When there is good money involved and the participants frig it up, government steps in with regulation and maybe licensure.

When there is little money involved and participants frig it up, it just gets banned.

Lets not frig it up. Community involvement and public education is a good place to start. That can be as simple as the local club answering questions from the passing public and demonstrating that the sport can be safe and fun. Self certification can help get affordable insurance. Examples that I know of: PASA, National Ski Patrol, National Skate Patrol.

Yesterday I met a vacationaing family from Missouri on the beach for a (free) kite demo. They heard about us through the state web site when they were planning their vacation and called to make an appointment. Two teenagers learned to fly a Beamer TSR and are hooked. Two parents were thrilled and saw that the sport is thrilling, "beautiful" (their words) and can be relatively safe. Maybe they will buy a kite from me or someone else when birthdays come up.

I have commercial product liability insurance that covers post-sale and pre-sale with me doing public demos (me flying), but not me putting the kite or buggy in the hands of a member of the public. My insurance cost would increase ten-fold otherwise. I had to manage my risk myself by putting the right kite up in the right winds, keeping clear of other pedestrians and keeping my fingers crossed. That takes some of the fun out of it and puts my whole family at some additional risk.

I would like affordable insurance for lessons and/or participatory demos. A reasonable certification program is one avenue. It can be done well and people can have fun, as demonstrated in other sports and industries. Sure, you'll get your accassional a**hole, but that happens everywhere in life.

Well I still dont feel you answered the free lessons bit, but I'll move on.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell I have commercial product liability insurance that covers post-sale and pre-sale with me doing public demos (me flying), but not me putting the kite or buggy in the hands of a member of the public. My insurance cost would increase ten-fold otherwise. I had to manage my risk myself by putting the right kite up in the right winds, keeping clear of other pedestrians and keeping my fingers crossed. That takes some of the fun out of it and puts my whole family at some additional risk.

Well now I could be wrong, but it seems to me that once you pass the kite off it's now the kite-handlers responsibility to use their own insurance. I've never expected to be covered by someone else's plan and I always ask if someone new has health/life insurance. If you don't..... oh well...... the sport is safe, but not safe enough for me to let you fly my kites uninsured.

I bring back the car. If you drive my car without your own insurance, you can and will still be liable, even if I have myself covered on the very car.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell Ah... Your talking about licensure, and that never came up on this thread. We have been talking about certification here. Licensure is government. Certification is industry. When an activity is self regulated and insured, government gernerally stays away.

I always though they went hand in hand. The more certifying going on and the more isurance woes we hear about, the more we bring the attention of the government down on our sport.

You hit the nail on the head when you said we need to be self-regulated and self-insured, though I think we may have differing opnions on what this means. Some see this to mean that we need kiters-regulating kiters, so not the case.

Self Regulation- Upon flying and opening that new kite, you accept an amount of personal responsibility for the safety of you and others around you. You accept responsibility for where you fly, the conditions you fly in, the gear you fly with, and the number of people near you when you fly.

Self Insured- Pretty basic here. Quit whining about group insurance and bite the bullet. We don't need group insurance for last Saturday's session..... we need it for sanctioned,organized events on public/private lands.Also, most seem to ignore that, even then, it's only supplemental.

5-10 years from now, if we do somehow get group insurance for a day-to-day basis and certified instructors for sanctioned land-based lesson program, won't that be sreaming for regulation? I can hardly imagine our gov't. looking at that situation without green in their eyes.

K2B -

I think this is an interesting dialogue, but I gotta put in my $0.02 regarding questioning Angus as to why some folks are deserving of free lessons while other would pay for the same info. If someone offers pro-bono advice or services at a community festival or event, advice or services which they also charge for as part of their livelihood, that's their perogative.

Now, if you were a paying customer who then finds out you could have gotten some free services if you'd waited until some public function or event, you might have a right to be pissed. Or, if the services you received were good value for the money, you could quit complaining and be glad you learned something new on your schedule, at your convenience, without a bunch of other people around waiting to have a turn too. Note Angus' mentions "occasional pro-bono lessons." That might be called "seat of the pants marketing," and there's certainly nothing wrong with that when you're trying to get a business going.

krumly

Different situations at different times, we run an intro to flying program at the local park, free of charge, sat morning from 10:00 to 12:00. After that they can keep flying whatever they've got in the air until I head home with the gear. Funny thing is that everyone there knows who sells kites locally, so even though the program's free, I sort of get paid for my efforts. Some sat mornings me and a couple others are spread out like a circus worker spinning plates, running from person to person helping out and offering advice. Sometimes people end up waiting an hour or so just to get their hands on a kite. It comes with the free program. We do it because we love to help people and want to grow the sport, but I also love time with the family and keeping it to one time slot a week keeps the rest of my family time open.

But if you're asking me to head out to a park on another weeknight and spend some more time away from my family for a couple hours of one on one lessons, surely that must have a price. If I was certified I'd probably do it for some extra $$$, but I'm not setup for it and don't want to take the risk of doing it without the insurance.

I figure a number of the other kite shops are in much the same boat. I really don't see what part of this is hard to understand.

Thanks Krumly, Pablo.

Pablo -

A question for you: Is your Saturday flying thing a regularly scheduled and "publicly posted" event now? Is it something you've had to scheule and clear with the local park and rec folks? Just curious as to at what point you have had/will have to coordinate with "local government" vs. doing it on an ad hoc basis.

krumly

The park we use is already registered with the govt as one of the few "aproved" kite parks in the city, the local sport kite fliers pushed this through years ago.

As for advertisement for the event, None really, just posting on the local forums when we're heading out, it's a busy park and lots of local spectators, if someone's really looking interested we let them try, lots of people getting their freinds into it, more just stumbling across the forum. Lots of word of mouth.

We've had no contact ourselves with the local govt. This is usually a deathwish. If the govt OS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s it they're taking on some liability. If they're involved they'll insist on every kiter carrying 3rd party insurance, regulations galore. They have to if they're going to cover their back sides. As it is, they know we're there I'm sure, but they can pretend they didn't see us if anything happens. We take extra care to make sure nothing happens. Always start people on something way smaller than what they can handle, just enough to give them a lil tug. Then move up if they're doing good.

It works for us. I'd like the official recognition and the ability to get some kite specific areas set up, but for now we simply don't have the numbers to really get their attention. We're building up the community hoping that when we get large enough they'll be forced to work with us to help us get a couple safe spots officially.

Thanks for the info Pablo. Traction kiting around here is really all about kiteboarding in summer and skiing or snowboards in winter. Largely because the inland winds stink, and there are very few fields with enough size or fetch to get clean wind for ATB or buggy.

The closest place to me for buggying that has a chance of getting some clean wind is the local highschool practice football and soccer fields. I fly both traction kites and sport kites, and offering the lines my smaller, "beater" kites to interested bystanders is always fun. I always vacte the area when people come to use the fields for intended purposes, whether they are scheduled users or not. People seem to really get interested when my 7 year old son is flying his Imp, LD Stunt, or a 2-line delta.

I think it would be great to find a spot where I could be more certain of having space to fly and let others try it (no intent to charge for this), but am wary of formally approaching school officials or park officials since no one has booted me out so far.

krumly

Don't ask the officials, just keep doing what you're doing, sooner or later you'll find a decent spot locally, the guys you're helping get started may know more areas close by that you haven't thought of yet as well. Start them small, teach them safety first, make sure you've got a good track record in the area. Then when the officials do catch up you'll have a good track record and be less of a threat to them.

If you ask, they've got to answer. You probably won't like the answer either.

Wow, what a discussion here.

I got my PASA certification to teach for a few reasons. First, I want potential students to know that I have been trained, tested and approved using a defined curriculum of steps to progress students from noob to kiter. This gives the potential student some confidence in my abilities.

Second reason would be for insurance purposes. The insurance companies insure based on the fact that I teach the PASA curriculum which they have reviewed and approved for minimizing risk involved in a potentially risky sport. Without this certification I would be lucky to find anyone willing to insure me at any cost.

Third, many of the places that I instruct require that I carry insurance, which as mentioned above require that I am certified.

As a business owner, I charge for kitesurfing lessons for the same reason that I sell gear, which is to make money. That should come as no suprise For anyone who thinks that a kite shop owner is making "bundles" of money, think again. Ask your local shop owner someday what kind of money they are pulling in. The rolling eyes should tell it all.

I love to kite and I love to share kiting with others. HOWEVER, I would usually prefer to enjoy my own riding than to teach someone for free. When someone pays for a lesson they are paying to have that instuctors undivided attention and skills to help them achieve a specific goal and keep them safe in the process.

I am typically happy to give someone a brief intro to traction kiting and I include a one hour session with each kite purchase, but when we're talking about learning to kitesurf, that is usually 9 hours of my time which I am not about to give away for free.

I have talked with Christopher Nygard at PASA about starting a landboarding/buggy focused training certification and they are open to it if someone steps up to create the coursework. It is a fairly big undertaking but if someone is interested I can put them in touch with Chris.

Have a windy day,
--Jake