I see in the forum alot of talk about what knot to tie the brake lines onto and things like that. I know there are most likely tons of information about the kite lines what works best for control and depending on what you want to do but what are the basics? I saw that someone said depending on how fast you want to be able to stop will depend on where you tie your brake lines to the kite. Any suggestions? Also, Maybe I am catching up late here but the Pansh kites seem to be getting good reviews for most of the quality, with the exception of the lines and handles. And the prices are good. Right now I have a Pro-foil 1.5, beamer 111 3meter and beamer 111 2meter. What suggestions for a bigger kite for low winds. I like the Pansh prices,,, I am not looking for lift right now anyway.. Want to do more buggying. Thanks.

To some extent, its a matter of feel, but ulitmately, its a matter of performance. If the brake lines are too tight, the kite won't get off the ground. If they are too loose, the kite may not be as responsive as it could and you will loose the ability to kill it quickly in case of emergency. Some kites (blades) fly well on the power lines and the brakes can be more loose. Race kites will not perform well with loose brakes. Most kites fall somewhere in the middle.

Generally speaking, set your kite up so the brakes and powers are the same length based on whatever knot you are using on your handles and bridle. If the kite can't get to the zenith when launching powered in the center of the window, you have too much brake on and need to loosen them. If the kite is slow to turn and the brake lines very saggy in flight, tighten them.

The best way to figure it out is to play with it. Launch the kite and fly it for a few minutes then land and make an adjustment and launch again until you find the point where the kite peforms and feels best for you.

On light wind days you may want to let some brake out and on high wind days you may want to pull the brakes in a bit. I feel tight is always better than loose but I like to fly on the brakes.

If you are looking at buying another kite you may want to consider selling your 2m. Your kites are really tightly grouped. I think you'd be better off with the 1.5, 3 and then a 5m or something to really expand your range. Or if you like your 2m, sell your 1.5 and 3 and go for a 4 and 6m.

Hey B-Rock, thanks for the info, I think I will keep the kites I have, but what do you think about the Pansh Ace 5.0? As I said I am looking to do more buggying and static flying and not jumping so I dont want anything with lift. If not Pansh Ace,, what other brand. I like the price of the Pansh. I don't think I would be able to afford more than one more kite so is the 5meter good? About the brake and power lines, I will try your suggestions.

I'm not in position to comment on Pansh as I have no personal experience with them. A 5m kite may be good for you (depends on your weight and the wind) but if you're getting on with the kites you have, a 5m should be a good step up for you.

There are plenty of low A/R (less lifty) kites that would be good in a buggy. PKD Busters and PKD Broozas come to mind as does the HQ Beamer. The Peter Lynn Pepper is something worth considering as is the new PL Reactor (higher A/R and supposed to be fast but not lifty - but I have no experience here either though I like PL kites). There is also the JOJO ET Instinct which I love. They are less lifty and super stable but likely more than you may be willing to pay. The Flexifoil Rage and Ozone Samuari (now Cult) are worth considering but they are also on the more expensive side.

If your funds are limited (and they are for most of us) than it really is to your benefit to decide on what you want and then either wait for it to go on sale or buy it used from someone you trust. You can get great deals if you are patient and knowledgeable. If you know you can't upgrade for a while than going with the bargain kite is not always the best thing as you may instantly need to drop another $100+ on lines and handles. Sometimes cheap is good but not always or in every circumstance. Do your homework. Buy what you can afford and love what you buy. Good luck.

Hey, good advise. I haven't mastered the Beamer 3meter I have yet so maybe i will wait like you say. I am 5'6" about 160 lbs. I just had my 1.5 meter pro-foil in my side yard,, its pretty big. Its not a clean wind but it was still fun. I guessing the wind was going from about 8mph gusting to about 25mph.. that little kite moves fast and had a good pull with the gusts.

For me around 5m seems to give the widest usable wind range in most models I have tried. By looking at my quiver you wouldn't believe it but I think that it's good to fly the same model of kite in more than one size. ( my 4.5 and 7 bullets are my most used for the buggy)
If you like your Beamers getting a 5m to compliment the quiver would seem to make good sense. Then all of your kites should perform similar.
I'm not personally fond of 1.5 m kites. To me they don't act like a power kite. Too fast and twitchy. If the wind is so strong all I can fly is a 1.5 I'm usually willing to wait for a safer day to fly. That is the kite I'ld sell to help fund the 5.

Ahh, but everything has a place, I used to think "I'm a big guy, when would I ever need smaller than a 3m kite, even that hardly gets used".

I used to think that until I hit Nevada and cracked 45mph on a 2m kite.

Yeah, the 5 meter sounds like the ticket> The 1.5 meter I have only cost me$60.00 so it was worth it and worth keeping to mess around with. 45mph with a 2m kite sounds pretty cool. I could see it though,,, even today with the 1.5 at times I felt as if I was in the buggy it could have pulled me. I am going to have to check on the price of a Beamer 5meter.

Joecat -

Look at any formula for lift production ( or drag for that matter). Lift is proportional to apparent wind velocity squared. So flying a foil in winds from 8 mph gusting to 25 mph means lift, or pull, is going to be on order of 4 times greater in your gusts.

Now your side yard conditions sound extreme (and maybe exaggerated - who can say without a sensitive anemometer), but it points out why it's generally safest as a beginner to size for the gusts and work the kite to gain speed. You don't say where you are located. I'm typically flying in very gusty inland conditions (Minnesota) and as much as I like fixed bridle kites for simplicity, I'm really starting to prefer depower foils with reflex cambered foils that are "autostable" and where camber and angle of attack can be cranked in and out instantly.

But that 4.5 -5 m foil is a hole in my quiver right now. I'm just thinking I might like to fill it with a 5 m depower foil instead. I should mention at 127#, I probably fly a size or two smaller than a lot of the guys on this site.

krumly

Hey Krumly,
I am located in New Jersey Southern tip, just outside of Cape May New Jersey. As I said my side yard is big but the wind is diffently NOT CLEAN. Swirlling around and gusts when the wind is there. Now the formula you refer too,, is that to mean that if the wind is blowing 25mph the pull is going to be about 100lbs? Or something close to that? Depower: that means brakes, four lines, correct?

When folks refer to depower kites they are talking about I different set-up than you are used to Joecat. 1st of all depower kites are hooked up opposite what your " fixed bridle " kites with brakes are.
Your center lines are connected to the front of your kite and your outside lines are hooked up to the back and are your stearing lines. By adjusting the " trim strap " and hooking the "chicken loop " into your harness you can change the " AOA " ( angle of attack). By tilting the kite forward and back + altering the overall shape of the kite. With the kite totally depowered ( all straps in ) the nose of kite is pulled forward and the kite takes on more of a C shape. The air passes producing minimum lift. With all straps out The kite will open up giving more surface area + be tilted back producing maximum lift force. + more bar pressure. By adjusting the trim you can compinsate for gusting wind + get a wider usable range out of the kite.

For gusty winds nothing compares to Peter Lynn Arcs IMHO. They also have an auto zenith quality that is very nice.

Joe
If it helps, I have a simple schematic of a de-power rig...

thanks guys. starting to make sense.

Joecat -

Lift is always dependent on apparent wind velocity (velocity the kite "sees" ) squared. There are other factors involved (wing area and lift coefficient, of which the lift coefficient is dependent on angle of attack, aspect ratio, and more). But you get the general gist: If you are getting 25 lbs of pull with the kite parked overhead in 10 mph steady wind, 20 mph steady wind would result in 100 lbs pull, with kite parked in same position.

Angus' pic is good, but most depower systems end up both adding camber (which also increases lift) and well as increasing the angle of attack when you pull in the bar or let out the trim strap. Exactly how the shape of the foil changes depends on the kite and the exact mechanics of the rig.

I just started ona PL G2 Arc kite this winter. It's an older model, but I gota great deal on it and it's fun to use. Snowbird is right - it stays parked overhead hands off and it is very gust tolerant and autostable due to the reflexed foil. But it doesn't give me much useable pull until the wind is over 11- 12 mph. It also develops lift/pull more through speed than through high angle of attack. And you can't reverse launch it (or I can't), which I think is a bummer compared to 4 line foils, depower or fixed bridal.

I mention my general prefernece for depower foils because of the gusty, tubulent conditions I have around here - It is the norm, even when you find a fairly open area. Since I am both a lightweight and a pretty cautious flyer, I end up picking smaller fixed bridal kites and working them for pull, or switching to a kite with good depower range. When I get smooth winds here (usually in winter, skiing on a large lake; or when I get to travel to the Washington coast or the Outer Banks, I love flying fixed bridal kites.

If you aren't looking at depower kites, a forgiving 4.5- 5m sounds like a great choice.

krumly

Krumly is absolutely right about arcs needing some wind. I would venture to guess though That Pablos 16m Scorpian would perform well or better in the same wind range as a 5m fixed bridle.
I actually think Joecat may be more comfortable with a 5m fixed bridle at 1st. + it will be cheaper. It is good for him ( and others in gusty areas ) to know about arcs and the superior gust performance they offer.
They are a scarey looking thing do to the size but they perform real well. The auto zenith also helps make it more friendly / crash resistant.
Man, I almost have myself sold on one.

Depower on the Scorpion is something like 80%, then you have a number of adjustments to kill the power even more. But they're not exactly a cheaper entry level kite.

If you're in gusty conditions, look for a mid aspect kite, nothing super agressive, another thing to look for is a partially closed off leading edge, With more open vents the kite will surge more when it gets hit by a gust. They also get more snappy when they luff and power up again. In really bad conditions I fly my Broozas, even my 7.5m only has 4 vents on the leading edge, takes 3-4 sec to fill on it's way up, but if it luffs the kite holds it's shape pretty good, then when it catches again, you've got a couple sec to do something before the kite really hammers you, then when it does kick it's a little softer. When the kite stays filled/powered the limited vents don't seem to hurt you at all.

Any kite with the limited vents should do roughly the same thing. May be something to consider. I know a number of brands are doing this on some of their models.

I appreciate the info. It all sounds good. I will do some research on the suggestions as far as models and things. I am learning alot just by reading the different entries. The auto zenith sounds interesting.

A quick question??? Any tips on "Kiteline Care" such as lube "silicone" & such, Tricks for 4 line storage & ending up with the least amount of hassle as far as Tangles & keeping them in their respective Pairs, esp. thinner lines, such as 80lb spectra... :puzzled:

The ultimate product for lines is stuff called Q line. It is almost tangle free + you don't need to sleeve it to make knots.
The lines that came with my old Airush were awfull. I found that taking them individaully and running them through my fingers I could remove the twists in each individaul line. They would twist around each other less after.
I don't know of a wax for lines but I think I may try some on my Ace's bridle. I'm finding that simple twists aren't as easily shaken out with those braided bridles catching up on each other ?