Hey gang! I've been sifting through all the helpful posts here and am ready to ask that most-common of all first questions: which kite for me? I live in Maine, USA, and am surrounded by frozen lakes in the winter. I'm dying to get out and do some snowkiting! I figured I'd get a kite now while the summer is still here, and take some time to figure out how to fly it so that when winter rolls around, I'll be ready to go!

I've never flown a power kite before. I've heard suggestions to start out with a 2-line kite, but am wondering if it's really that much harder to jump right into the game with a small 4-line kite. Something like the HQ Beamer III 3.0 or a TSR 3.6. Most of the use would be on snow-covered lakes with either skis or a snowboard. I weigh about 170 lbs (~12 stone.)

As for control, it sounds like a de-power arrangement would be good for snowkiting, but perhaps I'll work those details out after I get more familiar with flying with handles on the Beamer or a bar on the TSR.

So, any suggestions for kites / controls / getting started?

Thanks all!

Scissors,

First of all welcome to PK! The forum snow experts are Snowbird, B Roc, Powerzone, Acampbell, ripsessionkites, and Da Vinch (if Ive left anyone out I do apologize). They can give you first hand knowledge of what works best in the white stuff. They will ask you the basic question about weight, avg winds in you area, snowboard, skates, skiis etc............ Get the hang of 4 liners before u venture to depower. A 4 line option down the road that can be converted easily to depower would be the U Turn Butane/Nitro Evo lines. Ultra stable and very powerfull. Straight up depower I can reommend the Flysurfer Pulse and Air Evolution X Air--pricey but great depower foils. Again welcome and good hunting!

Good advice from "Tridude". I have been flying for only about 8 months, started with the Beamer III 3 meter. Very nice kite and recommended by alot of the guys mentioned above. I have been sticking with the Beamers, they provide good traction as compared to lift which I prefer. I had the same attitude as you as far as learning. I have been flying the kites as often as posisble with the idea as soon as our tourist season is finished here in New Jersey in a few weeks I will be on the beach with my buggy. A quick question for Tridude,,, I have asked this question before but I guess I was not paying attention to the answer.. What does "Depower" actually mean? I use the four lines on handles right now with the idea of going to a harness of some type when I get more expereince on the bugggy. Most likely some type of simple one that I can get out of easily.

Scissors
Good call on the Beamer TSR for starters. It even comes with an instructional video CD which is handy if you are starting off on your own. Because you have 2 edges with yor skis, you can hold down an awful lot of kite in the snow, but starting out on plain ground with a 3.6 is about right.

Also a good call to learn the 4-line fixed bridle foils before moving on to de-power. See Tridude's excellent write-up on the Montana 2 elswehere on the forum.

I have a customer in Montana who got a Peter Lynn Vortex entry-level twin-skin inflatable (de-power) for use on the frozen lakes in the Winter and on the water in Summer (he had previous 4-line experience). That's another way to go.

I'm thinking the 3.6 TSR may be a good start. It is on a bar and so will your next kite be. At the Rodeo last year I was the only one flying on handles and one of very few flying fixed bridle. The Beamer will work well as a big wind kiter down the road.

One option to consider for the bigger kite is a Peter Lynn Arc. The kites are very good in gusty inland locations + reasonable second hand prices. With the arcs ( + Flysurfer ) you can also cross over to the water with the same kite. The Montana's are a pretty good option if you are going new and have an HQ dealer. They are open cell so not a water exactly kite.


Joe,
With a depower kite your front lines are on a " trim strap " that feeds to a " chicken loop " The back lines are actually your steering lines. When you make the center lines longer or shorter you change the " Angle Of Attack ". That means the nose of the kite can be pulled in to cut the wind and let out to catch the wind on it's sail :puzzled: Think about a piece of plywood ( or a sail )and how the lift / pull increases as you angle it into the wind.

There are some riders in the Pine Point area as well as the Long Lake / Sebago area (and N. Conway, NH) is another spot.

Depower is great on the snow but I don't own any so I use my fixed bridle kites.

If its gust and you are on a fixed bridle kite lower aspect is better. Last winter I flew my 2.5 90% of the time as the wind was crazy all winter (I weigh 145#) but the winter before that I was on my 8.5 all the time.

I think if you start now you will be in good shape for the winter and I would start with a kite in the 3-4m range (low aspect) like the Beamer.

It really doesn't take much to get going on snow and even less if its thin or hard packed. Deep snow takes some umph to get you going but once you're gliding you're lit until you have to turn (and if you aren't comfortable jumping, you'll appreciate a slower, lower A/R kite that you can turn through the zenith while you either hop around or slowly carve around).

I would avoid any two line trainers. Go right for a four line on handles or (and I'll be chastened for this) a depower like the Apex or Access and start out real slow in low winds.

Winters are funny in New England. The winds will be up and the bigger te lakes the smoother the wind but you really don't want to have only one kite as that could really limit what you will do. A 4m may be a good compromise but could leave you seriously over powered on those days its ripping or the surface is very fast.

If you could swing a 3 and 5 meter kite that may be better, or keep your eyes upon for sales and see what you can get. Depower will cost you more but cover more of your range. fixed bridles are cheaper, easier to learn on and more fun to fly static.

Depowers require a harness - fixed bridles don't but you can only take the strain on your arms for so long.

Helmet is a must.

Launching on snow / ice in high wind is a trick to master. Ice srews, sand bags, snow or snow bags are all helpful to hold the kite in place while you set up.

Watch out for ice fishing holes.

Make sure the snow mobiles see you and your kite so they don't run over your lines while setting up.

Yeah, I've sold a lot of line sets to guys who got theirs run over by snowmobiles. Go to the sporting goods section of a department store and get some of those bright orange cones used for marking out courses or play fields. I got two sets of four for about $4-5. Set them out in the snow along your kite lines while setting up or parked.

I use mine on the beach to keep people from tripping on lines and to mark them out for the patrol/ rescue or maintenance vehicles.

http://www.coastalwindsports.com/KiteSpace.jpg

Joe
Here is a rough schematic of an open-cell de-power rig.

http://www.coastalwindsports.com/images/DepowerSideView.jpg

The pulleys in the bridle let the entire kite change angle of attack (AoA), instead of just warping the trailing edge as with fixed-bridle kites.

Other type of de-power is with the inflatable "C" kites or Peter Lyyn twinskin ARC kites. In that case the lines go to the four corners of the kite with little or no bridle. Pulling the bar in pulls on the back corner on each wing tip, rocking the whole kite back and increasing AoA .

Definately consider a de-power for your Bigfoot when you are comfortable with what you have. I love my Scorpion in the buggy. With it, I could chuck all my kites under 5 meters were it not for keeping them as demos.

De-powers like to fly in 10-12 mph and up, So I keep larger fixed bridle foils over 5m for light air work.

Thanks for the great (and quick!) feedback. I'm glad to hear already that there's some other activity going on up here in Maine, maybe I'll get a chance to meet up with some others around here.

So far the TSR 3.6 seems to be in the lead! And the price is pretty much exactly what I can afford. I know this is designed to work best with a bar, but is there any advantage to getting some handles as well? Just curious if that would open up any other opportunities, or be a good way to learn more about the nuisances of the kite.

Yup, TSR 3.6 would be a good starting point, It's always a good idea for people to start with something they don't have to hook in to fly, you'll have a great kite for years to come, easy to pass off to freinds who want to learn, then you'll probably want a larger depower kite once you've got the 3.6m nailed.

I'm no expert on the snow, but inland flying always likes a kite that can handle the gusty winds, Arcs, FS are great for this, most of the new Bow style tubes do good as well.

As for converting a kite to depower, you can easily do this with any kite that has the bridals rigged in groups across the foil. IE all the lines comming from the leading edge join together before hooking up with the rest, then all the 2nd row join together before hooking up with the main bridal. If the kite's rigged with groups from top to bottom it's next to impossible to convert it.

Pretty much anything from Flexi, Ozone, PKD I know for sure are rigged so they can be converted with a UDS or Pegas WW kit. I suspect that HQ and most of the other good kites can be converted as well but you'd best ask someone who knows more about them.

If you want to switch between bar and handles, Get a Beamer III (comes with handles) and get a bar when you want. It will fly just as well on either. The TSR is purpose built for the bar.

Hey Angus, Thanks for the response. I will be getting in touch with you within the next month to see about a harness. A few more weeks and the beach is MINE>

The advantage handles will offer you as opposed to a bar on a fixed bridle kite is that with handles you can use the brakes to kill or turn the kite more effectively. When you go to a bar the use of the brakes to turn the kite is lost and they become simply a safety device if a killer is attached to them and then to you or your harness. Crossover bars can be used to add some brake to your turns on a bar but I'm no expert on these.

The one thing I think you absolutely must have, if you are flying on ice / snow is the ability to reverse launch the kite - especially when you are new (but even the best crash or fall and need this ability). A two line bar will have no reverse launch ability which means you will crash somewhere (likely away from your ice screw) and now you need to figure out a way to secure the kite in place then run to it, flip it over, secure it again and then run back to your gear, get your skiis on and launch. That is next to impossible to do in high winds with thin cover.

If you've got brakes on handles, its a lot easier to flip and relaunch. If you go the bar route, make sure the kite is at least a three line if not 4 line setup so you can still reverse launch the kite. My belief is that the Beamer TSR is set up with reverse launch capability. So I wouldn't say no to a bar as they are nice to ski with but just make sure your bar has an attachment for the brake lines so you can flip the kite when needed.

Given your weight and likely local conditions, I think the 3.6 will be good - even if that's all you have. As mentioned earlier, with skis you can hold down a ton of power which means you can ski with a bigger kite but since there is so little friction on the snow, it doesn't take much to get going so small kites are fine and if you work the kite you can get by with an even smaller kite.

Go with the beamer and get good at flying and relaunching the kite. then when winter comes around you can by something bigger or smaller depending upon your comfort, snow depths and prevailing winds. Then when you go out, get fully powered and through the kite back as you carve down wind to reverse direction - you'll go through an enormously powered slide turn blasting powder through the air and leaving an arc in the snow that most will marvel at. Your adrenalin will pump as you will really feel the power of the kite through that turn and then you'll fully understand why we have kites to do that in ever wind condition. Its just awesome. I live on a lake and often I'm the only one out there doing my thing - its a magical moment when the only sound to be heard is the wind and your skis carving the surface. Then when your session is done and you see a once pristine powder-covered lake all tracked up by only your turns - major grin.

I'm ready for some snow! I had the best time last year on skis on a frozen lake near my house. I tried a snowboard also, but I liked skis better.

We only had about 4 - 6 inches of cover, but it was so fast, no trees, clean wind and quiet...

I want to try and chase some speed this season. I only got up to about 35mph last year.

You are going to love it!

Hi Joe


your Mood: Waiting for Tourists to Leave

I am gone !!!

:tumble:

too bad we did not meet, I would have let you tried my smaller kites (access 4m or pulse 7m) they are depower, you could have then compare to your kites

i'll probably go again next year.

what a beach if there were no tourists, so wide !!

buzz

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc The one thing I think you absolutely must have, if you are flying on ice / snow is the ability to reverse launch the kite

Ok, sorry for the lack of knowledge here, but could someone elaborate on the exact process of "reverse launching"? I think I get the idea, I'm just having trouble picturing it in my head.

Thanks!

Kite is inverted, trailing edge up. Apply brakes in handles or pull break lines on a 4 line bar and the kite lifts off the deck. Once she climbs to about 15ish feet, release brakes on one of the handles, or lines on bar, kite spins leading edge up release other brake or line and up she goes. I attached a reverse launch off my minivan. Not intentional but a reverse launch all the same! Happens around the 2:50 mark!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uih4YaxvgyU

Great minivan landing!

Hey Buzz,

Next year for sure,, I will be here... I did try calling you several times on that cell number, and left a message. I had the kites out on the beach on Crocus Road 2 days,, it was gooding flying. I will try to supply some videos of the beach and riding next month.

Joe

Well, I decided to go with the TSR 3.6. Thanks to all who lended input. I ordered the kite yesterday, it's due to be delivered on Friday! By Sunday I should be out of the hospital with whatever broken limbs I obtain on Saturday.