I tried to fly my Venom 13 kite for the first time at Ocean Beach in San Francisco and it pretty much stalled 2 feet above the ground directly down wind (I know...launching down wind = big no no but it slowly floated itself there and i couldn't even stear it). The winds were blowing at about 15 knots average. 5 min after trying to get the kite to fly, a kite surfer tells me that I'm in great danger and he pulled the kite out of the air for me. I appreciated his help as safety is very important to me. It was probably a bad idea to attempt my first launch at depower kites in those wind conditions. BTW the only other kite I flown is a 5m fixed bridled RadSail Pro. I can pretty much fly it with my eyes closed and I can landboard with it as well. The kite surfer said I should never fly the PL 13m kite at Ocean Beach because it's too big and a gust will lift me off and probably hurt me or by standards (although there are very few). Also, I launched with the chicken loop under my harness hook, which he also said not to do. (I read that being able to depower it at the start would be safer?? but apparently not)

I asked him if it's ok to try launching it in lighter winds and he suggested that it was still too dangerous because of gusts. I always figured beach wind was less gusty, but he still insisted that I don't fly it.

Now, I really want to take the advice of experienced kiters, but part of me really believes that I can fly this kite safely (with lighter winds on my first attempt...like 5-10knots)

What do you guys think? Should I pack it away for good or give it another shot? I would take lessons but the local shops only teach students how to launch and fly kites with bladders specifically for kite surfing and not kite landboarding. I'm thinking maybe I can use craigslist and hire a local who has flown PL kites to guide me so I don't do anything stupid. The instructional DVD that the kite came with sure made it look soooo easy though...

Hmmm....looking forward to the responses to this thread. Sounds like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't fly the thing!?:puzzled:

I saw a video clip from YouTube posted - I think if you search this forum or just search Peter Lynn on YouTube you'll see it but truly - they make it look super easy to self launch the things (I'm banking on it myself once I take the Guerilla out for the 1st time).

I'm trying to find out why my kite stalled in such heavy winds. I suppose it was a good thing since it indeed was pretty windy.

"If when first setting up your kite and the kite refuses to launch, back stalls, or just sits at 6ft off the ground in light winds. It is due to the fact that the kites AoA is far to big. The kites performance may improve when there is far more wind. Other key symptoms are very loose rear lines and little or no steering when controlling the kite fully powered. To correct the problem new knots need to be added to the front pigtails.
Your other option would be to adjust your Control Bar Leader Line lengths to compensate for the differences, but it is often preferred to adjust at the kite, this then allows your bar set up to be used on any other similar kite."

From: http://www.kite-fantastic.co.uk/articles/mx5alan/peter-lynn-...

I wish I could honestly say that I completely understood the solution to the problem. Am I suppose to shorten the leading lines or the rear lines?

You should probably track down a guy named Gideon Low in Santa Cruz. He's a Peter Lynn team rider and kites up at Waddell / Scotts Creek all the time. He would be the best person to get you started and answer your questions. Go to the "Arcusers" Yahoo Group (if you haven't already), he hangs out there all the time.

Your Venom should have no problem flying in 15 knots of wind. When a Venom stalls back during launch, it's almost always caused by poor launching technique or incorrect line trim. I'm assuming you've already taken kiting lessons, if you haven't you need to, and Gideon or one of the other local kiters in your area can help you find an instructor.

Launching a Venom takes a bit of technique and is the only tricky part to flying them. I'm assuming you already know how to launch an Arc, but here's some things that typically cause a launch to fail. First the kite needs to be fully pre-inflated. Inflate the kite, then close the zip, push down on the upwind tip (to squeeze air back towards the downwind tip) and open the zip again to top it off. Second, make sure that when you're launching, the kite is about 45 degrees from the windows edge (so about 135 degrees downwind from the direction the wind is coming from). Venoms need to be launched much deeper than an LEI.

Venoms (and all Arcs I've flown) fly off the front lines. What that means is that the back lines (steering lines) need to be slack (no tension) in order for the kite to fly. If you over tension the back lines, the kite will stall or even fly backwards. This is the single most common issue for first time Arc fliers.

I think your kite surfing friend although having good intentions may have been a little bit of a PL hater! Always launch a Twin skin hooked in, it is the only way to depower in a gust as well as activate the safety in case of a bad launch insuring safety to bystanders. A 13 mtr Venom in that wind would launch and fly quite safeyl with gusts up to 25/30 knots if depowered. Big Kahunna is right they want to fly on the front lines and if they have any tension on the rears they will do what you experienced. Getting some instructions will definately insure a speedy and safe learning curve as well as watchin the instructional video a dozen or so times to get a better understanding of proper set up and launch techniques.

Are you flying on a PL bar? That will have a large effect on performance as other bars need a bit of tuning to the proper input.

I wouldn't recomend this if you don't have help from a friend but I self taught myself to fly PL's and was buggying on my second day out in some really rough wind conditions on my 9 mtr Phantom and learned to really trust those PL's as very stable and safe kites.

Fly safe--Dustin

I never hook in! i hook my safety up and pull on the front lines. I probally have close to 5000 launches and landing to date. Get with monkey air out in cali...........aj

I always hook in, my safety is connected to my chickenloop, if I launch unhooked I am fully powered and have no safety, if something happens I can't depower and I have no safety, I would need to completely ditch the kite. And when I tried to first launch my Bomba, it was really hard, and I still don't totally have the self launch down, assisted launch no problem though. The most important things are either use plenty of sand/or a heavy enough kite weight, there is nothing worse than that tip coming loose on you. It ruins your launch. And make sure you put it right where it needs to be in the window, this helps ALOT! And when you weight down the tip, fold it over, it is far easier, I didn't think it made a difference, then I watched a self launch LEI video, and saw why you do that, started doing it and the kite doesn't grab the weight, it throws it off. I practiced with my 8m fixed bridle too, try that, it will help you get the process down. Trust me, first week or two, your gonna hate your ARC and be like WHAT THE HELL DID I DO??!!! And then it will just click one day, and you will become an adict.

Happy flying!
NPW
i
c
k

Sounds to me like you're trying to launch the thing like a bridled foil (straight downwind?) which is doable if someone is controlling the kite for you - pull on the center lines and it will whip up into the air very fast and give you an almighty yank... certainly not a prefered technique!!

These things are super easy to launch though... preinflate, lay out flat downwind with the lines lying over the top of the kite (make sure theres no tangles etc.) hook in and attach leash, walk the bar bar, the kite will start to take shape, get ready, sit it at the edge of the window and hey presto she's in the air without pulling you at all...

That how i always did it anyway


Make sure you don't have too much tension on your rear lines as well and that theyre generally set up right

attached an amazing diagram

It is super super easy when you get the hang of it,

Here's a vid par example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx36ecGjQ4c

Get on video.google.com and look for Peter Lynn. There's an instructional on there that looks like it's from the Peter Lynn company that tells you all about how to launch/land the kite, and how the safety system works. It's what I used to learn how to launch my GII.

Also, what size is your bar?

As said before the folks at Monkey Air (Malibu) would be able to help you figure out what problem might be preventing the launch. They do lessons on the ARCs too.
www.monkeyair.com

The very first kite I ever saw (2001) was a PL, must have been because it was tied off to a log on the beach and flying perfectly still at zenith while the owner was playing with his dog!

I've read lots about them on racekites and when I think about getting a first depowerable, they're at the top of my list! Love the way they all describe their PL kites munching gusts like they don't exist, not to mention texting their friends and eating their meat pies while letting them sit at zenith while taking breaks.

Was thinking of suggesting you check them for advice, but from the rest of the thread it seems like your fellow yankees are sorting you out quite well.

There's one fellow there goes by mrmawalker who's a big huge bloke with an jovially belligerent attitude who should get together with your apparently quite prejudiced friend from Ocean Beach. If you'd posted this story on there he'd have been breathing flames.

Yelpnametag, much kudos and good karma coming your way for your restrained yet crystal clear presentation of your opinionated kite friend.

You can be my diplomat any day!

cheers,

furbo

Plenty of advice and opinions here! Just wanted to say that I learned -not- to launch a PL hooked in one day that the wind suddenly (read instantly) increased from 15 mph to 35 mph. The kite instantly shot to the edge of the window dragging me on my belly (and on top of the safety) for a hundred or so yards. Fortunately, the wind was almost perfectly side shore so I had a lot of beach to drag on (a rare thing in Hawaii). But I learned my lesson to launch unhooked. As I said in my earlier post, PL's can be a tricky thing to launch, and even after flying them for 5+ years I still have a failed attempt every once in a while. It's nice to be able to just let go of the bar when that happens. Launching inflatos, on the other hand, I always do hooked in.

I have a very similar story BigK about my safety being under my belly and unreachable!

I bet when you were launching you were pulling the bar right in as well weren't ya less of that pulling in on the bar business please :singing:

Thanks a lot everyone! You're all very helpful on this forum.

I have contacted monkeyair.com before and Traig is extremely helpful via email. If I still lived in Southern California, I'd definately take some classes from him. Since I have mixed responses about launching hooked in vs unhooked, I'll ask Traig. So far it sounds like it may be better to launch unhooked? I'll get back to you guys when I hear from Triag.

Ya, I was pretty bummed to hear that I shouldn't be flying that Venom 13m but I swear I've seen one or two PL kites in the area at Ocean Beach.

I'm going to try a second attempt at relaunching the kite but I'll do it at 8am when the winds aren't as strong (5-10knots) and when there is practically no one at the beach. That way I can't be that bloat that ruins kiteboarding for everyone by accidentally hurting by-standards. Unfortunately, I have to attempt this alone since none of my friends like kiting.

Two questions:
1) The leading edge line on the kite has two knots, one placed about 8 inches away from the kite and the other is about 12 inches away. Which knot do I attach my lines to for more power? The PL DVD video shows a Guerilla with one leading edge line and two rear lines. For some strange reason the Venon has one line with two knots for the leading edge line and only one rear line. :puzzled:

2) Since the rear lines are loose and attached to the far ends of the Peter Lynn Zero4 control bar (40cm), is it really possibly to steer the kite by pulling on loose rear lines? (sorry but the whole depower system is confusing compared to fixed bridle + handle setup) When I fly fixed bridles, I pretty much stear the kite by pulling one of the leading edge lines. So for PL Arcs, it seems weird that I would be apply pressure by pulling on one slack brake lines while the two leading edge lines have the same pressure (since it is attached at the same point - the middle) Pulling on a slack brake line applies very little pressure and two leading edge lines have the same pressure from being attached at the middle of the bar...then how does the kite turn? (I really hope this isn't a dumb question)

I suppose that little amount of tension on the rear line is enough to redirect the kite's profile to fly in the proper direction?

Quote:

I never hook in! i hook my safety up and pull on the front lines.

Hey AJ,

I'm trying to get a visual on your launch. I'm assuming that your kite is parallel to the wind so you must be launching perpendicular to the kite if you're pulling on the front lines??

Gotta say I'm surprised that both you and BK launch unhooked. How do you steer the kite on the way up? If you're using the bar, then your powered up?

Not about to argue the point with two guys that have a hell of a lot more experience than I do, just want to understand the pro's and con's better...

Thanks!

I use my elbow to keep tension on the brake lines for the first second or two on take off.I place my hand on the depower buckle and pull the center lines.Follow BK directions and it will work 98% of the time. The Person who taught me has his name on the kite..............aj:D

I gotta ask. I guess I'm a dolt. What are these standards you are worried about hurting. Are there rules for kite flying out in California or something? They've been mentioned twice and I don't have a clue what you are talking about. I was just lurking here but now I'm lost.

I think it's actually bystanders he's worried about, not by-standards.

Definitely a legitimate concern!

dyslexia? Lotsa folk in these individual action sports are dyslexic in my experience -- climbers, racing dinghy sailors, windsurfers, and the like. I know several dyslexic folks operating successful outdoor action sport businesses here in asia, more often than not, actually...

good material for another thread....

Could always be wrong, in me oh so humble opinion...

furbo.

Ok, that makes sense. I didn't have my eyes open for a mis spelling. It was the same twice which made me wonder what it could mean. When I was a kid I called Volley Ball "Bally Ball". It happens.

Quote:

1) The leading edge line on the kite has two knots, one placed about 8 inches away from the kite and the other is about 12 inches away. Which knot do I attach my lines to for more power? The PL DVD video shows a Guerilla with one leading edge line and two rear lines. For some strange reason the Venon has one line with two knots for the leading edge line and only one rear line. :puzzled:

Sounds like the previous owner modded the front pigtails. The Venoms were originally shipped with only one knot on the front pigtails, so the bottom knot (at the end of the pigtail) would be the original knot.

Quote:

2) Since the rear lines are loose and attached to the far ends of the Peter Lynn Zero4 control bar (40cm), is it really possibly to steer the kite by pulling on loose rear lines? (sorry but the whole depower system is confusing compared to fixed bridle + handle setup) When I fly fixed bridles, I pretty much stear the kite by pulling one of the leading edge lines. So for PL Arcs, it seems weird that I would be apply pressure by pulling on one slack brake lines while the two leading edge lines have the same pressure (since it is attached at the same point - the middle) Pulling on a slack brake line applies very little pressure and two leading edge lines have the same pressure from being attached at the middle of the bar...then how does the kite turn? (I really hope this isn't a dumb question)

You really need to get a hold of Gideon. Call Traig and ask him for Gideon's phone number (he's a team rider for Traig). It sounds like the previous owner made some mods to the lines and pigtails and since it sounds like you're pretty new to all this you really need somebody there to make sure you're setting it up correctly. To answer your question, no a Venom will not steer without any back line tension (unless your psychic powers are better than mine ), but too much tension will cause it to back stall. Once you learn how to trim a Venom, it only takes a couple seconds to diagnose an issue and correct it. But explaining how to do it in a forum post will be a study in futility. Call Traig, get a hold of Gideon, and get some help.

I'm done.

Quote:

Gotta say I'm surprised that both you and BK launch unhooked. How do you steer the kite on the way up? If you're using the bar, then your powered up? Thanks!

FWIW, PL recommends that you launch unhooked and fly right to the edge of the window and pause there while it finishes inflating, and hook-in if you feel safe. Because you start at 45 degrees off of downwind, you are close to the window edge and it should not power up too much. If you mis-judge the wind or launch too far downwind and it does power up too much, you can let go and kill the kite on the safety leash. That way you are never dragged if you blow it.

On leashless safety systems like with HQ, you should launch hooked in so you can ease up on the bar and de-power for launch while you get settled, usually also starting at the edge.

We have the Peter Lynn instructional DVD online. It is a huge download so broadband is recommended. This video is for the Guerilla kites but will work for all the PL twinskin kites.

You can download it here --> http://www.awindofchange.com/photo.html

Scroll down the list to the video.

Hope this helps.

Quote:

FWIW, PL recommends that you launch unhooked and fly right to the edge of the window and pause there while it finishes inflating, and hook-in if you feel safe.

Well, I'll have to try to launch unhooked this weekend!

AC, are you hooking in when the kite is still at the edge of the window?

Also, when you hook in, are you pulling the bar down with the chicken loop or are you sheeting out the bar while you grab the chicken loop and attach it to the harness hook?

Thanks.

I hold the bar, not the loop, and pull on the center lines to get it moving, if needed (usually). I hook in as soon as it is obvious I am safe/ comfortable, usually by the time I am at the edge of the window. With the bar all the way in, you have to compensate by pulling on the center/ front lines.

When it rolls off the ground, it is pointed right to the edge of the window already and is most of the way there before it develops much pull.