Seriously, I would like your truthful reasons why not.
I have recently discovered the world of de-power and now I love kiting even more. A de-power in the 8m range can almost be a one kite buggy quiver.
I know there has to be pros and cons. lets hear them.

I'm still in the learning phase so feel free to slap me, but does depower work with handles?

Clint

Some depower kites can work on handles, but for the most part, no, not really.

I think its a price thing Dakitez...and complexity scares people away.

I love complexity, but with only a few months of kiting under my belt, I'm worried about wrecking an expensive kite... I still lose control of my Pansh from time to time... difference between replacing that and replacing a Venom or something is about a factor of TEN :-P

Price. Complexity. Better light wind performance.

Fixed bridle kites can be lots of fun to fly static but I haven't had a ton of luck flying my depower static.

While learning to landboard I'm still more apt to pull out a fixed bridle because I'm more comfortable with it.

the depower design softens the power. it mutes or blunts the power. once you learn to fly and use the power they are handicapping to mushy for some taste.

the bridle adds drag, but allows for the ease of relaunch esp. on the water

once you're flying in a dynamic system the last thing you want to happen is have less power. hence the BAR STOPPER BALL

they are safer for the novice, and here's the real reason.... having a safer kite that easily shuts ITSELF down by back sheet pressure(letting go of the bar) opens a huge selling market to those who need a higher safety margin. so depower kite are like selling rockets with throttles.
and one who really wants to ride a rocket would not want a throttle.

so a high number of entry level riders will buy them
nobody really wants a hot c-kite that doesn't understand balanced power it would cripple them could.

safety, relaunch and larger market
why would you fly something else power, pop and flow. a high aspect hot kite was what the original designs where based on because they had alot of power and worked not because they where safe .

Two weaknesses are low wind performance and just having fun static flying. Fixed bridles are better in both respects. But kick up the wind and add some wheels and the depower is in its element.

oh yeah i forgot RANGE, being able to significantly change AOA a depower can cover about 4-5m size range.

that says alot # of rigs and cost and is the reason they are popular with EVERYBODY

The cost of picking up a depower is a major deterrent for me (though with the money I've spent on fixed bridle kites I could have bought 2 or 3 depowers).

The less efficient low wind performance is another reason (I like how you can really work a fixed bridle kite).

Lastly, the simplicity of fixed bridle kites. I can set up in seconds and not have to worry about a harness if I don't want to.

I've flown depowers and like them and suppose I would get used to them and like them more if I flew them regularly but for me, for now, nothing beats the simplicity and workability of a fixed bridle kite.

I got a AAA kit on my Rage 4.7, It is my most used kite,the kit allows power adjustment on the ground. I can dial it in for conditions , between my 4.7 and my 2.5 It's covered, except for sub 10 wind. I was thinkin a 7.0 blurr would perfect my quiver . I love handles, WAY more control over the kite than a bar. Reasons I don't have a de-power
1]don't like bars
2] don't use strops(got the death grip of an ironworker)
3]exspense
4] bridals look like a nightmare waiting to happen
5] safety system on bar is pull the safety and loose the bar and kite?
on handles I got KKs . No outta control kite n bar flailin down wind to hurt someone or get damaged
6] did I mention how exspensive they are
7] I'm holdin out for the fixed bridal race parafoil from pansh and tryin to get a 7.0 blurr
How would depower work on 4 line handles? without losing any of my control ability ?

The safety on the Montana and others I imagine is to grab a safety release and the kite stays attached to you without any power, much like kite killers do for you. You have an added safety that you could release the kite from you completely but that is the last resort before you go over the cliff or into the power lines.

The bridles aren't really any more tangle prone than a fixed bridle as long as you don't take your lines off. That applies to both styles though.

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Originally posted by WELDNGOD 5] safety system on bar is pull the safety and loose the bar and kite? on handles I got KKs . No outta control kite n bar flailin down wind to hurt someone or get damaged

Like BB said depowers (at least my Access) has an excellent safety. I should know as I used it about 5 times last year. It worked really well (cut the power completely), was easy to reach and easy to reset.

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Originally posted by WELDNGOD 6] did I mention how exspensive they are 7] I'm holdin out for the fixed bridal race parafoil from pansh and tryin to get a 7.0 blurr

I agree that depowers cost more than fixed bridle kites, but the Blurr runs something like $800 or $900 right? You can easily get into the depower game for that kind of coin. You could probably get a couple used. I think there is a 7m Montana II for sale on this forum for $300 right now.

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Originally posted by WELDNGOD How would depower work on 4 line handles? without losing any of my control ability ?

I think that's a no-go. At least I've never seen it and don't see how it would work.

I've seen a Flysurfer on handles. Dude said it was a straight "connect the lines and fly" thing. He works it pretty good too. I think someone else on this forum has done it too.

I agree with the others on the control afforded by handles. I've yet to find a kite / bar combo that comes even close to matching the responsiveness I got used to from the handles. Perhaps it exists - I just haven't found it yet.

I tried several depowers and none of them worked sufficiently in < 10mph inland wind. In that wind, the lack of power and turning speed left only one choice - fixed bridles.

I also love the simplicity of fixed bridles and the safety system (yes, I wear kite killers). In my opinion, the current safety systems on most depowerables still need improvement. In my own experience, sh$t can hit the fan soo quick that even just letting go to Kite Killers takes practice (retraining your brain to just let go and to not hold on tighter).

I also like the control you have with handles. Can't get that level of control on a bar.

Don't get me wrong, I love my PL's but it basically boils down to ...certain conditions require different kites and that's why I fly both.

When the wind is at an angle that gives me odd (short) tacks on the beach, or if crowds reduce my runs down to something like a football field or two in size, then it's handles.
If the wind is over 9 mph and I get a park and ride for over 1/2 mile, I break out the Montana.

As mentioned above, it's all about the finesse you get with handles for light wind or tight maneuvering.

SPEED freaks like fixed bridle because they can move faster.
Control freaks like fixed bridle for the fine control.
Power freaks like fixed bridle for the extra low wind performance.
Air freaks like fixed bridle for static flying / jumping.


I think a lot of folks start off on fixed bridles and get toooo comfortable. Often not even moving into flying attached to a harness. They think they have reached some kind of skill level because they can pull off static jumps and they are happy with that.

I knew a guy named Dlish ( and Sthrasher and Beamerbob ) that was stuck at that level :smug: Sort of afraid to hook in. Fortunately Dlish is long gone and Dakitez has seen the light :singing:


I like my big open cell for low wind. My small ones for teaching. The 3 and 5m have not seen sky since NABX and I sold the Bullets !

I knew this would get a good discussion going. the forum has been alittle boring, so I thought i might spice it up. next will be a thread on how much you love or hate pansh :P

Bladerunner (snowy) is correct dlish is long gone and dakitez has seen the depower light.

I have seen a couple good points. Static flying and low wind performance, but I disagree. I flew flexiblades 8m access static in 6-8mph on off winds and successfully (unplanned) pulled off a superman. So how much power do you want ?
next I watch screwy fly his helix static and he has no problem getting nice big floaty jumps with it.

I personally have got to the point where I don't like to fly static anymore. I just get bored. Its not as easy to get scuds in on grass. If I'm at the beach thats another story. If I can't buggy I'll pull out my 2m sami and fly it like a rev.

I can understand the price factor vs. cheaper foils, but if your spending money for quality foils, then the money isn't that much difference. Especially when you factor in one depower can cover the range of 2 foils.

As far as the bar I didn't like it as much at first, now i'm used to it and it makes life alot easier. I can fly one handed and no handed at times. It doesn't have the exact precise control as handles, but you can still turn the kite on a wingtip. How much control do you need ?

Keep in mind I'm a relativly beginner buggy rider, so don't take my opinion too seriously. This is just what I have experienced to this point.

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next will be a thread on how much you love or hate pansh

Now that might be a lively thread...think there was a thread or mention of something similar on the Flexifoil forum that drew quite a bit of 'conversation'...bring it on : )

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So how much power do you want ?

For me, it's not really about 'total power output', but about, getting the power I need when I need it, instantly...power on demand...that quick burst of power in a turn, lull, etc. That I've only found in a fixed bridle.

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As far as the bar I didn't like it as much at first, now i'm used to it and it makes life alot easier. I can fly one handed and no handed at times.

Same thing....fixed bridle on strop.

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It doesn't have the exact precise control as handles, but you can still turn the kite on a wingtip. How much control do you need ?

In light wind and big kites, the added brake control can turn the kite much faster and sometimes that added sec or two can cost you a smooth transition or at the worst, a luff.

Again,,,just my experience...

I use both, The fixed kites do have a lower wind range. I do absolutely love de-power however! I really think it is a matter or personal taste and regional conditions. Where I am for example today (now even) a local station is reporting 5.7 mph wind speed with gusts to 19.6 mph I really need 2 kites one for the gust speed and one for the normal speed. Or go from powered to over powered and then back again. The de-power allows for that fast adjustment and security. De-powers are perfect because we have really flunky wind where I am.

excellent point kitedemon. I forgot that. I fly in gusty conditions similiar to yours, but not quite that extreme. The de-power really smooths the gusts out. if you live on the beach or somewhere with beautiful clean winds (Sunset Jim) then its not a problem with a fixed bridle

I'm still on fixed bridles, still flying static on the beach, lotsa low winds.

I haven't even laid my eyes on a depower (aside from watching the odd kitesurfer doing their thing) and look forwards to getting one and figuring it out. I've sailed lots and powering up a dailed-in high-tech rig is good fun!

what I like most about kiting is two things: feeling the wind in my hands and exercising fine control over what I can do with that wind, and from what I've read fixed bridles are where it's at for quality of control and feedback.

having said that, i can appreciate bladerunner's comments on how fixed bridles can keep a kiter at a plateau of skill development, but I've got a ways to go on the static jumping front with my fixed bridles, and don't feel yet like I'm sitting all comfy like on a skill plateau.

it seems like (again, from my armchair depower perspective) that depower kites really come into their own once a kiter starts to move across the ground and begin playing with apparent wind. If one is flying static, then one isn't missing much, is my feeling.

So a question about the depower / fixed bridle: am i right in assuming that I am not missing so much in putting off the dpowers while i am still flying static? It does seem to me that when I starting moving on something that can hold a line (wheels / board on water) then I will be in a position to really exploit the depower aspect of kiting.

But until then, I'm not really missing so much, and I'm still having fun with the direct quality of 4-line handle control and unrestricted feedback from the kite.

I've followed Gdmd's thread on looking for a new depower pretty closely, and from that and other threads, I'm pretty amazed by the way the depower folks can maintain good control over their kites in pretty strong winds. Fixed bridles do have much smaller wind ranges, I've got an 8m on the way and hope to get a 10m at some point to complete my fixed bridle quiver, and I'm definitely wondering how restricted i will be by the upper end on those bigger fixed foils.

@dakitez: bring on the pansh thread!!!!

yes the dynamic system (the kite moving & you're moving) apparent wind will feed MORE wind to the kite. static depower would not really shine. once your are moving UPWIND the depower allows the kite to move towards the edge of the window as the apparent wind powers the kite and actually widens the power zone. It curves the deep power zone areas UPWIND. the variable pitch of the rig allows this.

the depower exploits this more in a much wider range esp. in early fliers hands it can be very forgiving.

static fixed is very sensitive and provides excellent touch training, esp. in lighter winds.
it makes some depower rigs comparatively loose and sloppy. some, not all

take a run crosswind with your kite faster than the wind, keep flying the kite, the power may snatch it out of your hands

Why can't we just love them all!!!:D

This is a good topic, I don't think that most people fully understand the de-power unless they've flown one...

I look at the fixed bridal as a different game than the de-power, I think it all comes down to what your into static, bug'n, boarding land/water... I've flown both fixed and de-power and for what I do I like the fixed most of the time...

My Helix is a different animal all together... huge de-power turns fast as fu(k...

The de-power kites have 3 differences the open cell, closed cell and inflatables, "why does any one fly one of these..."

Currently I haven't found a open cell de-power I like (has a huge de-power) I've never flown a closed cell and the inflatables are phenomenal in the amount of de-power you have control over... find me a open cell that has huge de-power and I'll own another kite...

To address the turning issue... In general, I believe that most open cell de-powers are slow turning... a 2:1 bar could fix this and create a whole new experience...

My thoughts on noob's flying a de-power is you are throwing in a extra control in the mix... they have to learn a lot... if you learn on a de-power you could fly most anything... like put a noob in a bug and give them a kite, thats throwing another control in the mix... if they learn this way imagine how they would fly static...

I really think de-power is a step up in sorts, and it not for every situation and all the different style de-powers... wow my head is spinning ...

Sooo many variables to think of in all the different type kites available...

"Just get a kite have fun, get hooked and buy more just like the rest of us junkies":D

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Originally posted by Bladerunner I knew a guy named Dlish ( and Sthrasher and Beamerbob ) that was stuck at that level :smug: Sort of afraid to hook in. Fortunately Dlish is long gone and Dakitez has seen the light :singing:

I have to stand up for myself here. I got a harness just a month ago or so and haven't had decent wind since. I'll have a buggy (I fit in) in mere weeks and right after that's settled, I'll be ordering a Montana prolly in a 9.5 size. I have strops made up that I've used with my climbing harness on my fixed bridle kites back in the spring. I'm ready for all the harness offers, just waiting for the wind to give me a tug. I'll certainly be harnessed in at JIBE late september. Maybe I have a new name in the future like um... MontanaMuse?

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Originally posted by Bladerunner SPEED freaks like fixed bridle because they can move faster. Control freaks like fixed bridle for the fine control. Power freaks like fixed bridle for the extra low wind performance. Air freaks like fixed bridle for static flying / jumping.

my thoughts exactly! =)

I fly a depower frenzy and find it much better for jumping than the fixed bridles. When I make my turn toward the zenith, I can simply turn the power on and away I float. This allows me to jump higher while still not being over powered ;-)
also it seems that fixed bridles work better for buggiers and depower for boarders unless your one of those buggy guys that jump...

I have a new point... I just got back from the doctors office... I have managed to pinch the Median Nerve from too much time on handles! A product of wrist angle and force, not really ergonomically correct... De-power well the bar pressure on my access is quite light and I often use one hand to fly and relax the other. That isn't quite as easy as handles. For now I have pins and needles in both forefingers and thumb on my left hand. :megan:

This is an interesting topic however both have advantages and disadvantages each person will like or dislike each for his or her own reasons. The reasons why are the most interesting. It is like the automatic standard debate with cars. Personally I like both for differing reasons and fly both methods close to equally.

I love my fixed bridle kites for all the reasons people stated above. However, FB kites do have their limitations in unpredictable, high winds. I am keeping my FBs for low to moderate (13mph) winds but for anything higher, I'll use my depower kites. I just hate landing, packing and switching kites when wind picks up by 4-6 mphs.

I love DEPOWER!!!!!!!!!!!! actually i don't have much experience I only started kiting in September of 07 with my Crossfire 2.4 and then 4.0 and then my Montana. I never actually got to try my Crossfire 4.0 with my board, thanks to a thief at the park. so i learned the board and the kiting aspect with my Montana. I tried once with my 2.4 and the dang thing is so twitchy but anyways...I am pretty sold on depowers personally. I love when i am cruising along and i got the kite only 15 ft from the ground in front of me and i can feel i am about to get yanked over the board cause a gust is coming and just spill some of that power away. I can't be sure but i dunno if i could do that with a fixed bridle without getting yanked over. even a subdued one like a Beamer. Again i have a tiny quiver so i am speculating on my skill level. but i just feel so much safer with my Montana even though i am a beginner and it's aimed for freestyle. I will eventually get a fixed bridle beast for low wind days. I think it will be easy cause of the low wind. But I don't think i could see myself with a fixed bridle in 15mph winds on a board. I know it's done, i see videos all the time, and it's personal preference. but I enjoy cruising and spilling some power to rest my abs and ribs every now and then. Don't think that can be done with a fixed bridle even with a harness, power is raw constantly. I think i would stop more often to rest. I dunno if it's just cause i am excited to be out flying cause i am a noob but i am rarely stopping to rest. the way i rest is just by cruising back and forth without attempting any jumps LOL....Personally sold on Depowers here....I havn't touched my Crossfire 2.4 in 6 months. I am thinking about getting rid of it. But it needs a test fly before i sell her off.

Coming in very late in this thread. A lot of good advice throughout, along with some strong opinions to personal tastes. Time to throw mine in to the mix.

Fixed Bridle

I started flying on fixed bridles because they were cheap to get. You can learn almost everything you need to know about kiting from a 4 - 5m fixed bridle kite. Flying in low winds with one of these will teach you how to become the most frustrated person on the planet cursing all the gods that ever had anything to do with the creation and maintenance of the wind. Result - Low wind = Big Fixed Bridle (7m+ for winds 5 to 10mph).

We have all pushed the limits with a fixed bridle, a 4m in 23mph winds perhaps, and saw the face of the devil as you took the the air unexpectedly and came crashing down on the unforgiving cruel earth. We have all stared out at a kite at the end of our lines jumping up and down in crazy winds itching to kill us - makes your heart race and thump - bump - bump! Makes you feel alive to look at death on a string tied to your gut.
Result - High wind + Fixed Bridle = Fear of Death

Depower

That said the joys of flying a depower with more wind (15mph+) becomes a truly new and enjoyable experience instead of the terrifying one we are used to with fixed bridles. They have their limits but they are forgiving in our mistakes. Jumping becomes controllable and bigger. The biggest jump I ever did with a fixed bridle was with a widow maker 4.9m Blade III, only about 6ft - but I had to work at it to get it. With the 13m Venom in 16mph I can stand still and get that height no problem - run and do a pendulum and I can get 10ft - with float. Result - High wind + Depower = Amazingly Good Time & Possible Fear of Death (if you really screw up - which I have - on a regular basis - in front of people on this forum - they will tell you that I'm not safe to be around - kiting or not)