Hey everyone,
I got to fly an HQ scout 5.0 which was my first time flying a kit, during a free lesson in kitty hawk. I was thinking about buying a kite, since I live on the water during the year and there are big open fields around me. I felt like I had some control over the kite, although it was just 10-15 mph winds, it did drag me around a good while but I could get it to go where I wanted, the people were even surprised it was my first time. What is everyones opinion about the scout 5.0 and should I get one this big or get something smaller or just in general a different model.

the scout is fine if you are heading towards a water hobby where you will use a bar, but the 5m is too big for a first kite. It will slow your progress and could get you hurt as well while you are still learning. The bar will offer less control finesse than handles.

But it could still work for the atb? would you be able to get the handles as an addon to it?

bars work better for atb you just have less finesse control over the kite

how is a scout different from a montana

The scout is a fixed bridle and the montana is depower.

whats the difference between the two? I"m planning on starting a kite boarder club, so we're going to be doing water kite boarding. I'm probably going to buy a 4 meter scout on my way out of kitty hawk tommorow morning, anyone think this isn't the best choice of kite?

Does the Scout come in 4m ? That may be a happy medium ?

You just may want to think about the HQ Apex. :?:
It is a depower kite like you will fly on water but it comes in smaller sizes for beginers. I don't know a lot about the kite but I think it is designed to be beginer friendly ? I'm starting to feel that if you are going to fly depower kites you may as well start out on one right away ???

Does anyone have 1st hand experience with the Apex on here ?

yea it comes in 4m, I don't know anything about the apex, the only kites i've flown were the crossover 2 5m and the 2008 scout 5m. What the difference in depower and fixed bridle?

Crossfire is fixed bridle and so is the Scout. One is a performance kite the other is desinged to be more user friendly. A depower kite is a different set up. Like the Montana and Neo.

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Does anyone have 1st hand experience with the Apex on here ?

Yeah, I used to have a 7m. Very nice kite...Extremely stable...unfortunately, it wasn't suited for my inland conditions...needs about 10mph to really work...don't get me wrong...I would probably fly in 6mph but way to slow and mushy at that speed.

I wasn't too impressed with the depower but then I am spoiled on Venom II's and flysurfers.

Definitely a beginner friendly depowerable.

HTH.

I still don't undertand the performance difference that comes between fixed bridle and de-power. The scout has an x over control bar is that the same thing as a fixed bridle?

The x over bar is mimicking the controls you would use with handles to apply some brake to the side of the kite you are turning to speed up the turn. Depower actually changes the angle of the kite in the sky to cause it to load up with wind or slip through it quickly. Fixed bridles don't (as a rule) change their angle, you just tilt the bottom of the kite or maybe more accurately take pressure off the power lines when you apply some brake.
Look about halfway down the page at this link and you can get an idea about the bridle configuration on a depower.

Depower Bridle

I flew the scout a few times, it is a nice kite. The cross over bar (pulley bar) speeds the turning dramatically. I found that a little tweek was needed in low wind but nothing too large. A de-power kite with out getting into technical stuff has what amounts to (this is simplified! there is more to it... :-) a gas peddle push the bar away from you less gas (power) and pull it towards you more gas. For this feature there are sacrifices, low wind ability is the big one that and the hole in the wallet. My advice is to start simple and cheaper. The scout, or a beamer are great options. They are well behaved and user friendly kites. The depowers are great but you are going to beat up the first kite some so do you really want to beat an expensive one? I would second the opinion that 5m is a bit bit and would thing a 2-4m is safer. It varies with how much you weigh and how much wind you have on average. One of the guys here started with a 5m beamer against advice of the kite people here and he sits and watches others flying while he waits for the wind to drop down some.

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Originally posted by gsxstylee I still don't undertand the performance difference that comes between fixed bridle and de-power. The scout has an x over control bar is that the same thing as a fixed bridle?

I know this is confusing...
The Scout is fixed bridle and the cross-over bar has nothing to do with that except that it can be used on fixed bridle kites as an option to amplify individual brake inputs for turning. Put another way, the x-over bar can make a fixed bridle kite turn faster, but has nothing to do with de-power.

Fixed bridle means the angle of attack (AoA) is fixed and can not be changed in flight. The kite is always "ON" and can only be powered down by changing where you put it in the window.

Take a look at this simple schematic of a de-power rig....
http://www.coastalwindsports.com/servlet/the-De-dsh-power-Ki...

This is similar to the Apex mentioned in this thread. Very basic de-power. Moving the bar in or out allows you to change the AoA of the entire kite during flight and thus control power output from nearly neutral to "full-on", depending on conditions.

A more sophisticated bridle like the Montana with a two-pulley mixer on each side of the bridle not only changes AoA but can change the camber, or shape of the airfoil in flight. I think the mixer is what Bobby was pointing to in his link above. That part of the rig is also called a "z-line" sometimes. The mixer can also provide mechanical advantage to reduce bar pressure for the pilot. Depends on design objectives of the kite.

I've got an article on de-power in the works for my site since a lot of people ask the same (normal and expected) questions.

Well I bought the 4m scout, but they didn't give me my instructional dvd!!! Anyone know what basic techniques I should work on first? I didn't buy any toys for it either, maybe i'll give kite jumping a try after a week or so. Right now i'm inland but only 2 weeks till i'm down by the water.

Angus has a ton of great tips on the site above. www.kitesurfingschool.org is another good one.

Plenty of stuff to work on before jumping !

Work on holding the kite at the edge all the way from above your head down the edge of the window both ways.
Work on using kite loops and down loops to your advantage.
Fly sitting down, spin on your butt, and get up. Use the kites power to get up.
Fly one handed. A lot !!!!!
Learn to do as much of this as you can without looking at the kite.

These things will help you more when starting out on the water than thinking about jumping for now.

Your kite will be good for going through the motions for jumping but it's purpose in design is more to be user friendly. So you can put yourself in those tricky situations on purpose and not have to pay too heavily for a mistake. Be patient about the jumping and work on the important things for prepairing for a lesson.

Do you have a harness yet ? You will need one soon. If you have a harness you can practice body dragging with that kite. Time doing that would be far more valuable than jumping.

Welcome to the best time of your life !!! :singing:

I don't have a harness at the moment, i'm about to go out and fly it with my girlfriend for a few hours, see if we can find any big fields around here where there aren't any powerlines. I was wondering, could this kite be used at all in the water, for just getting dragged around or maybe boarding but starting from the beach rather then in the water?

Once it hits the water then it's laundry on a string. Then you risk stretching the bridles and hurting the kite if you don't retrieve it from the drink just right. It can be doen but you are better off with an inflatable kite that is water re-launchable.

Well that was a fun flying day, I tried to fly it one handed with limited success. Wish there could have been some more wind tho, had to run around a good amount in order to keep the kite up in the air. How could i practice body dragging on land?

To truly fly one-handed you will need a harness. The harness will take all the presuure off your arms, except
when you power up the kite.

Spend the first few days getting to know your kite, i.e., fly to the top of the window and just work on the turns.
Watch how the kite responds. When you feel comfortable with that, then drop a little further into the window.

I would advise against dropping to far into the window with out a harness.

Have fun!

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Originally posted by kitedemon I flew the scout a few times, it is a nice kite. The cross over bar (pulley bar) speeds the turning dramatically. I found that a little tweek was needed in low wind but nothing too large.

I've got a 4m Scout as well that I bought to get some practice flying on the bar. I've been meaning to post up an actual review but overall I was not very impressed with the crossover bar. I felt that it added complication and weight without really improving the turning of the kite. I'm wondering if I just need to make some adjustments although I don't know what to do other than tighten/loosen the brakes. Maybe I had the breaks too tight, but I felt like if they weren't tight then I was really getting nothing from the crossover system. I think I've mostly flown it with the brakes on the 4 tightest knot (out of 5). What was you low wind "tweak"?

I also found that the brake lines often became snagged on the leaders for the power lines and I had to "shake" them out vigorously at times.

I felt like the bar they use for the 4m is a little bit too short.

Yikes!

I don't have any personal experience with the Scout yet. Plenty of TSR's around Vanier Park ! It's the most popular surf trainer with folks choosing from HQ, Airush ( 2 line ) and one made by JoJo ( 3 line ) built for the local shop. Without the crossover things are pretty simple and I haven't heard any complaints.

I found my home made crossover bars didn't like smaller kites but understood it wasn't an issue with HQ's set up ? As you suggested I found that bit of extra weight played on the brakes in low wind. It improved as wind picked up though.

One thought is you could try dumping the crossover and setting it up like the TRS bar ?

I've been flying my kite all around the window but with low wind, is a harness needed to fly in harder winds? What kind of harness is good but fairly cheap?

A harness I feel is very personal. Some prefer Waist harness and some prefer a seat harness. best bet is to go to the kite shop and try them on and don't forget in the "Fall" and "Winter" your clothes is bulkier and you have to take that into consideration, when fitting for size. I prefer a waist harness but they do tend to ride up sometimes under your arms and you have to adjust. Although latlely i been landboarding with no shirt on and i know this is disgusting but my sweat is like glue and holds it down . anyways a seat harness which i have no experience with, i hear some say is a little uncomfortable to walk in. but then again i don't see anyone walking around with a kite and there seat harness, usually they on a buggy or board. if you do decide to go waist "Dakine Tabu" is a good cheap first harness. especially if you get previous years models. Another note too. I always see used harness' for sale, just remember waist harness makes ya sweat like crazy, so it's like buyin someones used underwear IMO. i don't care how many times it's been washed. that foam soaks up like a sponge inside.

Harnesses are a real personal choice. You can get seat or waist harnesses. Is there a shop around that you can try them out ? That is best !

To fly the kind of kite you'll need in the water ( depower ) you will have to fly it hooked in to a chicken loop. Scout being a trainer should have come with a loop ( D-loop ) on the bar to hook in to a harness. Using it and a harness will get you over that "hooking in is dangerous " feeling with a nice safe kite. Having the harness to hook in to takes the weight off of your arms and allows you to fly a lot longer. Increasing your actual fly time at a much faster rate. Good days are hard to find. No use going home early or only flying 15min at a time just because your arms are burned out.

About the kite and body dragging. It won't relaunch if ( and when ) you crash it. You will have to roll up the lines, take the kite ashore and start again . With a wet kite. I hadn't thought much about the line stretch but it could be a risk. I used my 3m JoJo trainer this way and stretch wasn't an issue. Also I didn't stand a chance trying to get upwind using the trainer this way. Getting dragged downwind and have to control the kite + my bowels at the same time was fun though.

Flying one handed : Move your hand to the middle. One finger on each side of the center line.

I'm sure that when you get this kite to the beach with a good clean wind it will do what it's designed to do. HQ wouldn't have put out a bummer :puzzled:Don't forget that small kites become your high wind kite so as you get more confident and fly in higher wind the kite should perform better. Until it's top end at least !

As stated above a harness is a personal choice. I won't fly big wings, or high winds with out one. I recently picked up
HQ's seat harness, and I love it. Yea it's a pain in the ding-a-ling when you walk, but a quick relase of the leg straps
solve that.

Your best bet, and this has been beaten like a dead horse, is to go to a shop, fellow kiter and try different ones out.

Just my 2 cents. :wink2:

Hmm, living in gaithersburg maryland, I dont know how close a kite shop is to me. I guess my best bet would be to find another kiter, i've been looking for someone to let me try kiteboarding eventually on the water anyways.

I looked up a store in York, PA. Probably the closest one to you. At least that I have found so far.

Yea, thats quiet a drive, where are you located in northern virginia ragden?