One year later I am starting the same thread again, but expecting your opinions without reading the old one.

Be fair, don't read it now, just after posting your comment

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=4181

As for me, I am a better kitesurfer than last year when I was just beginning on water, I still ride Flysurfers, but also some LEIs.

I really like advantages of the FS expect when the SA2 devents in lulls, falls, and does a bow-tie (3 times so far).

I like turning speed of LEI, and gust eating. I dont like pumping, asking for help to launch and land.

I like safety on FS

I prefer bridle less on LEI. Lots of time loss to untangled on FS.

I am told and read that low-end of some Cabrinha is very good...

Never had any bad experience with LEI such as a bladder blow-out or any damage.

I like FS for light weight and small packaging so traveling is better with FS (and no pump)

So where will I go now ??

Well i think it's all just a matter of personal preference - my own changes frequently :D
I'm currently using inflatables for the higher wind range and flysurfers for the low wind, i'll be trying the psycho4 this weekend though so i'll see if that shifts me at all but i personally just prefer the way inflatables fly when they've got some wind behind them, at the moment... i contradict myself constantly :D

My first time out with the speed was a bridle nightmare, but since I learned tying a half-hitch around the bar with the last revolution of lines, I havent had that problem.

I do too much solo flying for lei to even be an option.

Quote:

Originally posted by domdino Well i think it's all just a matter of personal preference - my own changes frequently :D i contradict myself constantly :D

Like your answer, I feel a bit like this too.

BTW have not had the chance to try your Pulse2 8m, never enough wind these days.

I still like the Peter Lynn kites over all others. The turning and depower of the newer Bow's was really baiting me that way but with the new Synergy and the huge improvements they have made on the lower wind range, I am solid with my choice. For our gusty inland conditions nothing else even comes close to the stability and gust handling. Now with the better bottom end and the same awesome top end these kites are just getting better every model....and I don't have to pump at all.

I'm hooked on the PL kites as well. I'd love a Synergy, but a Phantom can be relaunched from the water. Self launching, the ability to just tie it off and let it hover at the zenith, gust munching and the fact that even if you do something stupid and make a small hole on a barnacle... :bisou: the kite keeps on trucking and you can keep on flying. Put a small hole in a bladder and try that...

Self launching was one of the biggest selling points for me i agree with you all, i'm starting to get the hang of it with tubes but it's rather messy

a FRESH pump bow
- relaunch, land, water really super easy (100's of solo) hard to beat
-easy to fly very forgiving, can be a little snatchy at times, in general handles gust fairly well, but bumpy when you lock the bar down if it is gusty.
-one pump is they way to go and generally tough kites for the "mainstream" makes
- good learning, all terrain, and safe, FOR LEARNING ON THE WATER HARD TO BEAT.
if it is not fresh = trouble. tattered, heavy land use,sloppy launches and landings they can turn to junk quickly. water relaunches might be so easy because you will do it more with this kite. around every session at least once(one drop every 2 hours,that's fair to say). keep the lines tight IT WILL RELAUNCH ITSELF EVENTUALLY.

c-kite- fast, powerful, with master skills a champion to ride land or water, but the junk factor and the bladder thing WILL let you down I guarantee it. water launch can be tough to start on.

both need good air to fly - start around 10mph for land/ 13-15mph for water.

cavitation under the canopy gives them there characteristic shack/rattle with really aggressive flying... you can see it, hear it, and feel it.

lifespan reality for both-- trouble (bladders) could come in the first 100 hours maybe sooner, i do have a pump kite with about 300hrs the KITE/bridle is still solid.

with extra good care and maintenance they can last very long time.

no pump kite
- launch requires solid skills and knowledge. flubbed launch=a fv(king mess. in the water=a wet fvcking mess that can last twice as long. the landing can be predictable but can easily be messy.
BUT with my little experience on the PL (50hrs) 2 flubbed launches and only one drop on the water (with successful relaunch). i still haven't pumped a kite since i got it.
it will fly with a hole in it. 2min. and tape your flying.
-wind range =more top and bottom
-smoother & powerful(like Bentley)definitely refined feel
the complication frequency factor with the no pump is very small. i recall AJ saying he drops a PL once about every 60 hrs. i am inline with that. it could easily be 100hrs.

life span- my bones will be complaining before this kite fails to launch.

if you're a lifer in the sport =no pump

if you're want get quick skills and pass the junk in a couple seasons for "hot new gear"or on to something else = pump it up

and the biggest factor. flyers preference. taste plays a big factor. and that does change.
as i have become better i want unencumbered fly time on good solid refined gear.

- me and my buddy who flies pumps, always asks me to lunch and land him first, and then I can do it with my pulses on my own.

- The wind range of flysurfers is still way better then any other bow kite. For instance Cabrinha Contra 17 2007, max out at around 17 knots while others still fly on SA19's.

- Pulse 12, really covers the windrange of two kites, 16 and 12. While people keep on switching up their kites, am still riding on one.

- low end of kites is unbeatable, most of the days here in Toronto, it is only people with flysurfers are the one who are actually riding. Even the big 21 LEI's cannot even get going while we jump in 7-8 knots.

- bridle tangles? give me a break, never happened to me since my last psycho 2 10 m. Back then I did spent some time to untangle it. You just need to know how to pack it up.

- turning speed, well, nothing comes closer to psycho 4. it turns insanely fast and smooth, and the new bar totally rocks.

-- The only big minus, you cannot self rescue with flysurfers. You gota dump a kite and save your own life. So whenever I go out, I am always prepared to dump the kite.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah -- The only big minus, you cannot self rescue with flysurfers. You gota dump a kite and save your own life. So whenever I go out, I am always prepared to dump the kite.

Why do you say that? Yesterday I simulated a self rescue in waste deep water...backstalled kite to the water and released to FLS. Then I wound up the lines and rolled the kite up. It was a bit cumbersome, and no doubt would be more difficult in deep water, but I'm sure I could do it. I always wear a Neil Pryde high hook life jacket though. Not being able to stay on top of the water without treading would make a huge difference in deep water. I also have a piece of 3/16" rope with me so I can tie off to my board so it doesn't float away if I ever have to actually do it.

Clint

which kite have u used for self rescue? and what conditions? waves or flat water? I ones crashed speed 17 in shallow water, and 3 other guys had to help me out to get kite out of water.

Did it have a lot of water in it? I could definitely see that being a problem. The kite I dropped in the water was a Pulse 2 12 and wasn't down long enough to get any water in it.

Of course PIMPing NO PUMPs

Foil kites last forever. The more you fly the less you dump. I've only dumped my kite once since fall 2004. Maybe 200 hours of ride time.

Of course I"m on land race kites for water. When you dump they are easy to get the water out and dry pretty quickly.

Carry a large mesh sack to put your wet kite into and you shouldn't have to much of a problem swimming back in.

I also fly in the surf 95% of the time. Even a LEI kite will rarely relaunch in medium surf because it will get tangled/bowtied by the first wave that hits it.

Later-Scott

Quote:

Originally posted by speleopower Even a LEI kite will rarely relaunch in medium surf because it will get tangled/bowtied by the first wave that hits it.

so true.


just to keep you posted on my constant change decisions, I have decided to stick with Flysurfers only for now. These kites have given me the most fun on all terrain.

NO PUMP.

I had to bail on a kite yesterday... wind died off and it wouldnt re-launch. By the time wind picked up, there was too much water in the kite to launch it. (It was leading edge down, and about 5mph winds). I swam to shore, and two other friends helped me get my board and kite out of the water (my board drifted away from me). I had to swim about 600 yards all total, and when the kite went down, I was in an offshore wind situation. To the left were rocks, and the right shore was about 250 yards away... way too far to tow a 17m waterlogged kite. The wind was wrong, and I shouldnt have even tried... but I couldnt help myself. The little wind I did have I thought would keep blowing... it did not. The kite stayed afloat for about 25 minutes, I think while we tried to rescue it. By the time it made it to shore, there was probably 15 gallons of water in it. It takes time and patience to drain it, but it drained. When I wrapped up the lines, and considered swimming the kite to shore, it seemed like swimming back and doing something else was a better idea. In deep water, with no wind, and a 17m kite, it was a tough decision to make... but it seemed a little beyond me to roll up the kite and use it as a raft at that point. I had already wrestled with it for a few minutes and was getting tired.

In my other adventures, as long as the wind has blown, my kites have relaunched in some truly miraculous ways. They just need enough wind is all. I still think that foils are great kites. I just need to move to the coast for the good wind, I think.

I had to abondon my pulse 2 12 meter kite as the wind droped and switched 90 degrees. Anyway the cops later picked up the kite and rescued two other kiters. Now I am really thinking switching to inflatable dolls, as it would be possible to self rescue.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah I had to abondon my pulse 2 12 meter kite as the wind droped and switched 90 degrees. Anyway the cops later picked up the kite and rescued two other kiters. Now I am really thinking switching to inflatable dolls, as it would be possible to self rescue.

go and try it. you'll know by yourself.

I have a Best Nemesis HP (ez-pump) 12m 2008 used about 15 times, good condition that I am selling.

After reading the accounts of kite rescues in waters and abandoned kites, I am glad I am sticking to land traction kiting (with FS kites).

You don't have to abandon them. Carry a big mesh bag and just bag the kite. If you bag it and then if cinch the bag up the kite won't fill up with water. You can then swim to shore with a mesh bag.

It's like taking a plastic grocery bag and trying to swim with it all open. It will fill with water and be a pain to swim with. If you bunch it up real tight it won't take in much water and you can then swim easily.

Get a mesh bag!!!

Scott

speleopower makes a good point.

I've had to swim back with my 17m SA1.5 a couple times. the speed design has short valves and both times I wasn't able to relaunch it was because of the wind being too light.

my advice is be realistic. if the kite falls out of the sky because there isn't enough wind. pack it up. the more you mess with it the more water you're going to pump into those short valves.

play it safe and pack it up before it turns into a sea anchor.

ps...it really sucks when you have to drag a nice pretty SA up onto a beach covered in barnacles and then try to drain 15 gallons of water out of it without causing any rips. also I've found that seaweed seems to be attracted to bridle lines when kites are water logged...don't get me wrong I love my foils and I wouldn't trade them for any tube kites but just don't be stupid like me and wait to pack it up until it is half flooded with water.

also another safety measure I take is I always ride with a kayaking life vest. it sits high enough that I can wear it over a waist harness with no problems. I have good mobility since its designed for paddling and it has a nice pocket in the front where I keep a couple waterproof flares in the event I'm really screwed. I've seen people keep a crappy old cell phone in a waterproof bag before too.

its only a matter of time before Sh*t happens and I just want to be prepared for it. especially since I ride alone about 99% of the time.

I have decided to switch to pumps partially next seasons. Two reasons influenced me to do so.

First is that inflatables are more stable in gusty condition. Pulse 7 is unfliable in 15 gusting 35 knots, as it stals all the time. I tried 2007 best yarga 7m C kite and it performed well better.

Another reason is a combination of ones. Bridling that gets messed up, painful selfrescue, landing and lunching (C kite do it way better) (in high winds self landing and self lunching is bul#@%$#!)

I still like the foils, and I am going to keep all of them, yet I will buy 2 more inflatables one for high wind and one for medium wind. 12 and 8 north rebeles or Ocean Rodeo Rises.

the backup kayak vest is great add on, just a matter time,

solo rider myself and wear a vest for hairy float plan days,

relaunch closed cell foil failure, has for me, always has been in poor wind. when the wind is good i can always get it back up.

marginal light wind day, farting around close to shore, one too man turn backs, loose too much speed, the wind drops and down it goes. CHOOSING to ride in marginal wind is asking for it . BUT YOU JUST HAVE TO DO IT.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah I have decided to switch to pumps partially next seasons. Two reasons influenced me to do so. First is that inflatables are more stable in gusty condition. Pulse 7 is unfliable in 15 gusting 35 knots, as it stals all the time. I tried 2007 best yarga 7m C kite and it performed well better. Another reason is a combination of ones. Bridling that gets messed up, painful selfrescue, landing and lunching (C kite do it way better) (in high winds self landing and self lunching is bul#@%$#!) I still like the foils, and I am going to keep all of them, yet I will buy 2 more inflatables one for high wind and one for medium wind. 12 and 8 north rebeles or Ocean Rodeo Rises.

Bloah I'm interested to hear more about the pumps that you've replaced the pulse 7m with. your experience describes exactly what I've been thinking about but I haven't been able to compare a foil to a tube in a long time.

I just picked up a pulse 7m about a month ago and I've been wondering the same thing especially since the first day I used it. the wind was all over the place 35+ mph gusts with lulls low enough to make the kite fall out of the sky. not to mention it lofted me a couple of times even when it was fully depowered.

how do you launch/land your tubes and have you had any problems trying to fly solo with your tubes? I can't be dependent on someone to launch for me or land for me.

I completely agree with Bloah

In strong, even slightly gusty winds Inflatables out perform floppy kites by just so much. I was on a pulse2 8m in June, south wind from 20-30mph and it was horrible, kept jellyfishing and then it would punch in power, jumps it would collapse on itself sometimes... i grabbed someones waroo and i didn't understand it - completely nothing, it was rock solid no bad behavior at all. So that's it, foils rule the water in less that 20mph, inflatables in over 20mph in my opinion.... ohhhh, but, don't forget about peter lynn arcs, they also totally rock in over 20mph and are awesome in gusts, if you go out by yourself a lot, peter lynn are probably a better choice just cos i still haven't learnt to self land my inflatables, and certainly not in strong winds! But my old venoms/guerillas i landed in anything i wanted with that flag out thing and they are one of the easiest kites out there to launch once you get the hang of it.

I'm just in love with how the new ocean rodeo rises fly though, for me thats what i like at the moment when its over 20mph, under and i'll be on a flysurfer :Ange09:

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate Quote: Originally posted by bloah I have decided to switch to pumps partially next seasons. Two reasons influenced me to do so. First is that inflatables are more stable in gusty condition. Pulse 7 is unfliable in 15 gusting 35 knots, as it stals all the time. I tried 2007 best yarga 7m C kite and it performed well better. Another reason is a combination of ones. Bridling that gets messed up, painful selfrescue, landing and lunching (C kite do it way better) (in high winds self landing and self lunching is bul#@%$#!) I still like the foils, and I am going to keep all of them, yet I will buy 2 more inflatables one for high wind and one for medium wind. 12 and 8 north rebeles or Ocean Rodeo Rises. Bloah I'm interested to hear more about the pumps that you've replaced the pulse 7m with. your experience describes exactly what I've been thinking about but I haven't been able to compare a foil to a tube in a long time. I just picked up a pulse 7m about a month ago and I've been wondering the same thing especially since the first day I used it. the wind was all over the place 35+ mph gusts with lulls low enough to make the kite fall out of the sky. not to mention it lofted me a couple of times even when it was fully depowered. how do you launch/land your tubes and have you had any problems trying to fly solo with your tubes? I can't be dependent on someone to launch for me or land for me.

yeah i know what you guys are talking about... the bridled foils are just too efficient for gusty winds. they turn every bit of wind into great power, so the gusts really can kick your butt. thats where the tube kites can have an advantage, they're not as efficient. the Ultimate gust kites are the PL arcs as Dom mentioned.

owning 2 arcs now, I dont think I'll ever pump again. Bloah, if you looking for a med and high wind engine, dont overlook Peter Lynn. Had I gone Arcs earlier, Id have saved a lot of $$$...............

Bloah: we have a Phantom and a Venom both in 10m. U2U if interested.

I have the 2 PL ARC's and my Naish Boxer, and both of them probably take about the same amount of time to set up. Although the ARC's certainly don't take as much effort to do so. The 17m will fly in less wind then it will inflate in. So, its certainly a great low wind kite, I love it. More of a water only kite tho, by the time I get that up and flying on land, I'm too powered up for anything but a mountain board. But they are SO stable, even if it luffs it just falls back into the window, the inflato will just plummet, and the lines go everywhere.

I don't have the energy to go on and on, but I'm an ARCoholic

I say no pump, longer life, easier, more stable, and awesome light wind.

I can't pump anymore I have no more dolls.

Just sold my last tube today. I will try not to buy one for a while