The other day I took out my 10m Guerilla for the first time and was having problems with launching it - had a tendency to bow tie really easily. As a fix I tried tieing the outer lines on the bar (the back lines of the kite) closer to the bar, shortening them considerably (about 6 inches). I did this so the leading edge wouldn't be so prone to tucking resulting in a bow tie. This of course didn't work but I was eventually, with some help (thanks Dino), able to get the kite airborn. The winds were gusting between 12 and 18mph and the kite was pulling like a monster with the trim strap let half way out. I came to realize that adjusting the outside lines to the shortened lengths and having the kite sheeted halfway out was actually overclocking the kites performance. Now I haven't had the chance to try this with my other arcs but I plan on it. The next time any of you arc users go out in mild winds (10 to 14mph) give this a try and see how your arcs pick up a dose of power.

P.S. the supposed bottom end of a 10m Guerilla for a 180lbs rider is 25mph - I was in 7mph below the bottom end and getting overpowered.

ITS the same princible as flying unhooked. totally depower the kite then unhook from the harness and fly by just useing the bar

A little different than that - It's like pulling the bar all the way in for full power - then pulling it towards you another 6 inches - for that much more power. This is more or less extending the kites range - more power in lower winds. I need to go out a few more times to test this completely - but I was amazed at how much pull a smaller arc gave in smaller winds with this adjustment.

I DO NOT recommend trying to get more power out of these kites in higher winds! We all have our comfort zone of power in our kites - to use this simple adaptation to get more power out of a kite in higher winds could result in a nasty outcome.

Heres a tip for ya! Use your cars a/c vents to fill your kite! ..............aj

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

this will help with your set up check it out, (this is a repeat for sure)

good detail

bar throw length , pigtail length TE/LE (could be your problem with collapse)

this is a great resource

very long page

How are those new kites working for ya? When did you switch to Arcs? Do you find them with a more useable wind range or for gust munching? We have to get together soon where I can check them out. I guess I missed you today again. How did it go?

Awesome - simply awesome - I switched to arcs back at the beginning of the summer with the 13m venom then picked up the 18m geurilla followed soon after by the 10m guerilla. Have been nothing but pleased with their performance and range.

Today was a perfect case in point and a follow up to this thread - went out to Davis, winds were gusting hard from 15 to 32mph. I put up the 10m with the front lines shortened about 2 inches just above the sheeting system (where the lines connect to the leaders) and the pigtail of the kite set to closest knot to the kite. After I launched I realized that I hadn't sheeted the kite in to depower it. Didn't really matter though - even with lumpy thumpy 30mph gusty winds the 10m guerilla did great. The back lines were really slack so turning was a bit of an effort and the kite itself was seriously underpowered but totally stable. I landed it and adjusted the rear lines to compensate for the slack and relaunched with no problems. The power was nice and clean and not jerky as would have been with a fixed bridle. Made a day that would have been dangerous very easy to handle and totally usable. Got a top speed of 30mph, which doesn't sound like much but in dense grass that's a pretty good speed - let alone the runnable area at the field was about 120yds which made each run very short as my speed increased. Total distance 16miles - not bad for a 2 and a half hour session.

So end result for messing with the line lengths for the leaders from the bar - GREAT - you can increase the flight characteristics at lower wind speeds and squeeze some extra juice out of the kite and increase the top end - I was running in 32mph but could have easily gotten it to beyond 40mph with solid handling - these kites have gotten me to swear off using fixed bridle kites inland period. Arcs are safer, more stable , with more overall power, and with the safety system that I had posted a while back (the guerilla setup from the dvd that comes with the kite) arcs are the best way to go. I am satisfied that with my quiver and I can break my old habit of buying a kite every 3 months - unless it's another arc - so many to choose from.

As for the launching - its the same learning curve for any of the arcs - patience and a nimble touch. I found launching was easiest for the smaller arc to be done with it laying on its side with its wing tips laying over one another and gently pulling the center lines until the canopy opens up and it will start itself.

Hope to see you soon skip - tis the season coming up for ocean beach - Feb through May - get ready to get some sand in your pants!

Dam man that gave me chills. Sworn to Arc's inland! Nice. It is great to hear your enjoying them. See ya soon.

flexi you are the first person to give such a glowing story on the ARCs from a buggy perspective. I need to give one of these a try. I have my fixed bridles for those days I have 4-7 mph. Have you tried a synergy? I wonder if its the best one for the buggy or if an older model would be more appropriate? I might be tempted to go on the water once in a blue moon but that wouldn't be a dominant activity.

I would love to have a synergy but I just can't afford them - from what I've experienced with the arcs that I have the design has just gotten better over the years so I would imagine that the synergy is a very nice ride.

Light winds (except from what I hear about the synergy's) are a killer for most of the arcs. I am waiting to try to use what I have described in this thread on the 18m guerilla in 9mph winds to see how much power I can get out of it. Any lower wind than 8mph and it would be difficult to inflate the kite - apart from using action jackson's trick mentioned above.

The thing about arcs is getting over the fear factor to the sizes - going out in 26mph wind and saying " my 13m will be great for this!" throws off anybody that's used to flying fixed bridles or even ramair depowers. Arcs usable wing surface compared to their overall size is about a 2/3 ratio - a 13m arc is about an 8m ramair. Even though with what I have described in this thread I am rethinking this ratio - I used to compare the feeling from my 8m ace to the 13m fully powered - but now I can get more power out of the 13m than I could with the 8m by far.

As for buggying with them - its just a matter of getting used to how the kite flies - just like how it was learning to fly ramairs in the buggy - not much different but enough that you gotta stay on your toes and rethink old habits and learn new ones. Picking up an older model will do you fine - except from what I've been hearing about the f and s arcs - I can't say anything bad about them myself - I've never flown one. The older arcs - starting with the guerilla's can be found for fairly cheap - my 18m was $200 and my 10m was $150 - both without bar or lines - but still great prices for awesome kites.

squeeze it all at the bottom ..if it will inflate it will fly .. 8mph is good start to a long day

and get it all at the top....one hot session, and you are hooked!

right on! flexiblade

I'm going to be in Fernandina beach FL over Valentines weekend. Edisto Island on the first full week of April. Maybe one or more of our East Coast ARC users can join us there and let me have my ARC intervention. 2 new Synergies here just this week. Those prices Flexiblade was mentioning wouldn't hurt so bad at all. I think my next purchase will be a 8.3m Reactor for those 3-6mph days and then I can budget for an ARC to try one out.

BB- i am still watching the forecast for this weekend but i will have v19 and v10 0r p15 with me this weekend at Treasure Island. Your welcome to give them a try in the buggy. I have been using arcs in the buggy since 2000. I would say that out of my 12,000 plus miles i have about 9,000 of those with arcs. Looks like the weather going to be chilli for Florida. I have my drysuit packed for the water though. See you on the beach Saturday............aj

One thing to mention about the arcs that I use, my buggy riding style , and my buggy in particular - I use a seatbelt due to the angle of my seat - my seat isn't really a sling, more of a Lay-Z-Boy chair. even though I feel if I was in a sling type seat I would still be ejecting on a regular basis around corners or at take off (whenever the kite is at an 80 or so degree angle from the ground). I mention this for anyone wanting to use an arc for buggying - they are very powerful, resulting in most likely a lot of OBE's until you get a handle on them.

Controlling the lift and getting enough wind are my two concerns with an ARC in the buggy. I've spent 6 months making my quiver non-lifty and don't want to get hoisted out on a regular basis.

AJ, I had to give up my TI plans for this weekend. The economy forced me to tighten up a little and since I was in St. Pete for a week over new years, this trip got the axe when the budget had to tighten up. I'll get a chance locally between Tridude, Angus and phreerider having ARCs to play with. Have fun at TI. Maybe buggy a missing man formation once for me. I'll be there in spirit.

Flexi, did the seatbelt solve some problems but cause others? I envision digging a ditch down the beach with my chin with the buggy on top of me. My flexi bug has the wide axle and wide tires but if I go up, I'm not too sure about how I might land.

BB- Too bad, maybe next yr. I was also at St. Petes for New Years! That's funny....................aj

The seat belt solved a lot of problems - not too much actual airtime with my buggy - the buggy weighs about 70lbs - 80 lbs (never actually weighed it). The seat belt really saves on OBE's which would happen all the time without it - the seat belt was first installed when I started really pushing higher winds with my 4.9 blade III (18 - 22mph), but came in handy with the arcs later on. It's not really a lot of lift that gets me, it's that I really love the feeling of sliding through a turn and in order to do so I need to quickly pitch the kite in the opposite direction to get a really good long slide and then power out of it without stopping - I was working on turning the kite towards the ground by pulling as hard as could on one end of the bar - but this becomes a little sketchy with the arcs fully powered up, so I usually go high with the kite nearing a turn and then quickly pitch it down, which if I'm not buckled in can throw me from the #@%$#!pit at a 45 degree angle - with the seat belt the whole buggy comes with me - I don't really get air born - I just raise up out of the seat a bit until the seat belt catches me and transfers my momentum to the buggy. A great sliding turn followed by a seamless powered progression back on line can make any session that much better. If your just cruising and do simple turns with the kite up high I wouldn't worry about it.

In crashes (which I have had my share) you can get what I call "turtled" - which is to say that the buggy is on top of you and you are facing the ground still buckled to the buggy- not comfortable at all - the release system has taken the stress out of this situation - and allows me the time to right myself without having to worry about what the kite is doing. I've never eaten it at speed - but I make it a habit to use a plastic clipping seat belt just in case I crash at speed - the buckle will break freeing me from a tumbling buggy - I've had the buckle break in smaller wrecks and it worked great and is about a buck and a half to replace.

With the use of the tightened lines I can get the adrenaline rush in lower winds from turns that I could only get from higher winds - that's why I was so excited when I accidentally stumbled upon this. Depowers I used to think about as having a range dictated by what ever the prevailing wind speed is - in truth a depower properly tuned can alter the amount of power to be more consistent to what you want to fly in rather than what you are flying in.

Well put bro thanks for sharing!

I had an idea but am looking for input (and more design ideas) on how to put this idea to practical purpose - I have problems adjusting my lines when I'm flying - I have to go through the hassle of landing the kite (usually pulling my safety release) and then adjusting the lines once the kite is on the ground then relaunching. What I'm thinking about is a system to adjust the lines on the outside of the bar while the kite is still in the air. If the lines are initially set so that the kite is in its weakest position, trailing edge almost even to the leading edge, and then have a system where the lines can be shortened at will to increase power to whatever the flyer wants and needs would be incredible - a second depower system. Here is a rough drawing for one idea using small stopper balls and a metal carriage system that the balls can be inserted into - the only problem with this design is locking the ball into place properly without damaging the leader lines. I think the perfect system would be something close to a pull/pull sheeting system for each side of the bar - something small enough that it would not be too obtrusive. Any input would be great.

why not something like HQ's DTS adjuster, or Flexi's AAA adjuster system. With autozenith, you could use both hands and change each side in 10-15 seconds. It should be better than something metal and maybe more secure.

flip the leaders where the knots are at the bare end, then add a loop at the bar ends like a dacron pigtail, and use a knot and lark back onto the lines.

when trying to get good bar position for power really easy to change while static to tune plus with a twist you correct easily

all my bars/leaders have incremental knots on the leaders so adjustments are easy
once the tuned length is found the leaderrs can be fliped back where the are out of the way, but the bars ends still have easy pigtails for twist correction

all in flight with out having to drop the kite

great ideas gents.............heres one Ill throw out........... install a mini clam cleat on each rear line leader with identical increment marks on each side. Similar to Flexis rig. Could be a bit cumbersome but doable................on the fly trimming possible? Just a thought.........................

BeamerBob: A triple A adjuster would still have me undoing knots which would bring me back to the original problem, I don't know anything about the HQ's DTS adjuster - but am curious to find out. The Auto zenith only works when your not messing with the lines. I would have to carefully adjust one side with the kite pulled to that side of the window already so the kite doesn't freak out and do any loops and then repeat on the other side.

tridude: I thought of that - but have heard some negative things about clam cleats and that they can sometimes slip - which in this case would lead to a death spiral in the kite - but at least we are thinking along the same lines.

PHREERIDER: If you could take a pick or do a simple drawing - As you can see from some of my posts I'm a visual learner so I need to see it to get it - an intriguing idea - I must get more knowledge of this.

The HQ DTS is the same principle as the AAA adjuster but executed differently. The AAA would give you a fine adjustment. We are deeper now than my lack of ARC experience can keep me afloat on this. I'll just listen to the experts from here.

When it comes down to it this really isn't an arc thing - it's good that you brought up the AAA adjusters - because that's exactly what I'm talking about - the thing with arcs is that they have a bit more tolerance for odd wind pressures on their canopies - so they can take more of a severe adjustment without collapsing - This adjustment could be used on ramair depowers as well - just not as extreme a move of the lines. I don't think this would be so hot with fixed bridles though unless they already use a AAA adapter in which case they could benefit from some kind of adjusters near their handles in order to change the angle of attack on the fly. There's got to be a way - I'm going to dedicate my think bone to this issue for the rest of the day and see what else I can dredge up. Thanks

Flexi your idea looks sweet and with your metal abilities, should be easy. I think I understand what Phree is saying but Im also a visual learner myself. Ask BB about the hand out the window theory......

I 'LL GET A PIC OF THE BAR AND LEADERS

The thing with fixed bridles is that I can have it on the ground in 5-6 seconds, adjust the knots on my handle leaders, and I'm flying again. If landing launching is more cumbersome than that with an ARC, then you might really have a problem worth solving. Also think about the simple pieces of metal or plastic that come with the old fashioned picnic awning with stakes and two strings per stake. There is a piece of metal with 3 holes in it and you just slide it along the tie down string to snug it up without knots. I don't know how well it would deal with fluctuation tension though. These are also used on some tie down lines for tents. Maybe not a pure solution but could be food for thought.

Quote:

Originally posted by flexiblade I had an idea but am looking for input (and more design ideas) on how to put this idea to practical purpose - I have problems adjusting my lines when I'm flying - I have to go through the hassle of landing the kite (usually pulling my safety release) and then adjusting the lines once the kite is on the ground then relaunching. What I'm thinking about is a system to adjust the lines on the outside of the bar while the kite is still in the air. If the lines are initially set so that the kite is in its weakest position, trailing edge almost even to the leading edge, and then have a system where the lines can be shortened at will to increase power to whatever the flyer wants and needs would be incredible - a second depower system. Here is a rough drawing for one idea using small stopper balls and a metal carriage system that the balls can be inserted into - the only problem with this design is locking the ball into place properly without damaging the leader lines. I think the perfect system would be something close to a pull/pull sheeting system for each side of the bar - something small enough that it would not be too obtrusive. Any input would be great.

cool idea.

I'd be a little worried about how much those blocks weigh since the steering lines aren't under constant tension. when are we going to see the first prototype

here you go, easy with the kite in the air

i flipped the line to show knots at the bar

once you figure out what setting you like and also works for the kite you can make a custom or flip it back. the flexibility is nice with different kites