Hey guys... i have been buggyin for a while and am starting to enjoy it on the days that arent suitable for the landboard...
But .....
i have a bad problem of loosing ground and bot being able to gain it back.
I feel if i learn how to turn up wind this will be less of a problem? can someone tell me?

depower the kite and let it get ahead of you as you gain rolling speed( work the kite for power then get it stable) across the wind ,

finding the sweet spot of power riding with resistance against it steer easy on a more upwind line (put your body into it, put head back look where you are going), stay focused on that up wind point. easy on the steering to much and you can choke the kite

Is your flying area very, very small? Otherwise, it is going to be easier to learn to fly up wind a bit more to make up the ground lost in your jibe. Learning the upwind turn is an excellent time to practice other crowd pleasing tricks like the body slam, head bounce, face drag, and the always popular PHMeRGFMeRR (please help me remove gravel from my road rash). That last trick is a great one for meeting ladies, especially nurses and other health care workers. I have perfected these tricks, but I am still working on my up wind turn.
Seriously, I think you need to work on flying closer to wind and making tighter turns when jibing.
S

What kind of winds are you riding in and which kite are you using? Are you stalling out or sliding? In learning and watching others learn, it seems that an inability to get upwind is usually because the rider just doesn't turn the buggy upwind enough. Even in light winds it is usually tough to stay DOWNWIND. You can continue to edge towards upwind till adding angle starts to stall the buggy and as Phreerider said, "choke the kite". Just find where the choke angle is and back off enough to keep the speed you want or need. In high winds and an overpowered kite, you could have some slippage, but in these conditions, I find I can just about run dead upwind, to the point of it being scary that you can''t seem to choke the kite even if you want to. Another possible problem that is common when learning, is that you make your turns way too wide. If you are rolling along, then cut upwind pretty hard, and then turn back downwind hard and you can track straight down the track you just made if not more upwind. Can you guys make it to Aiken or Fernandina meet ups? Nothing beats riding with others when you want to learn to do it better. Your dad seemed to have it figured out on my buggy so he should be able to help to.

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Learning the upwind turn is an excellent time to practice other crowd pleasing tricks like the body slam, head bounce, face drag, and the always popular PHMeRGFMeRR (please help me remove gravel from my road rash). That last trick is a great one for meeting ladies, especially nurses and other health care workers. I have perfected these tricks, but I am still working on my up wind turn. Seriously, I think you need to work on flying closer to wind and making tighter turns when jibing. S

Very funny Scudley! But too true as well.

New buggier... what is "choke the kite?"

nleighty
Welcome to the forum, it is a wonderful place. I am still pretty new so I will let someone else explain who probably understands it better. There is a lot of talent here and a lot of experience. You will probably like it a lot. ;-)

Are you losing ground on the turn ?

If so then do what Bob said. As you are getting set to turn , turn your buggy pretty hard upwind while you take the kite up and overhead. Get most of the turn done with while the kite is in no power mode and try to be heading back the other way without having lost any ground at all. This probably means turning upwind harder and sooner and then getting the turn down nice and tight.

If you are losing ground on the run and ride under powered you need a bigger kite or more space to pump the kite! If you are losing ground and overpowered , fly higher in the window until you get back up to your stake and then pack it in right away! Always size for gusts !!!

Quote:

Originally posed by Bladerunner... Always size for gusts !!!

Tell me about it. Cracked ribs and road rash are even less fun than one would think.

i agree.... well the other day i was flyin my 11m neo in about 6kts (woohoo) lol... i can track upwind in higher wind days.... bob.. ill have to get u or angus to show me at jibe... i wont be able to make it to aiken

The problem with an upwind turn is that it puts the kite behiind you for a moment. It can be done, but you better be confident about where the kite is and where it will be when you are done or.... ask Scudley.

The big problem I see every time with a new buggier is broad downwind turns that chase the kite and slack the lines. It takes a big leap of faith for a rider to make that first hard, sharp turn. If you have room, turn up wind for a bit until you slow to a spped that does not make you nervous about throwing the wheel all the way over to the lock. If you do not have room to slow down, then you must throw the wheel hard over and break the rear wheels loose. On hard pack sand this is easy and often happens the first time by accident, which is instructive. On grass, start with runs no faster than a running speed then build speed on successive runs untli you know how they will break loose.

It is useful and comforting (to me anyway) to lean into the turn and hook my inside elbow unter the siderail to keep my center of gravity low and on the inside.

The first time someone cracks a skidding turn, scrubs off speed and comes out the opposite direction under control, its fun to watch the clouds part, the light shine down and hear the angelic choirs sing on high. The rest is practice

I loose only a few feet, if any, in a jibe. Ironically, one of the few "walks of quiet reflection" I have made was from upwind. With the low rolling resistance of hard-pack and a larger kite it's possible to buggy in very light winds. Then the problem when accelerating is making sure that the kite does not overfly the buggy and luff, where the only remedy is to turn upwind to keep the lines tight and the kite up.

Great stuff, guys...I feel lucky to have the benefit of your experience. I am so new...but trusting the turn comes quickly once I had that first quick one. It's like we just need to show the brain one time, then it knows where to go. If my memory is correst, I had more speed than I was really comfortable with, and heading upwind and running out of sandbar...I think that's when I realized I had no brakes. I flew the kite to zenith, held on and jammed the wheel all-the-way-over !! In a half second I was dropping the kite down in the window to a park and ride position...and trying to process what had just happened. But I did hear singing.

thanks angus!! im havin the problem with the light winds.. but since our area is being turned into a tree farm dont no how much ridin i will get to do:flaming:

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell The problem with an upwind turn is that it puts the kite behiind you for a moment. It can be done, but you better be confident about where the kite is and where it will be when you are done or.... ask Scudley.

Sorry to correct you Alex, but being confident about where your kite is does not help. You have to be right (correct) about where your kite is or you are sure as sheet going to get yarded out the back of your buggy. Timing is everything.
This is a trick that you should armour up to learn.
MKB, you need to have a fair bit of wind to learn this one.
S

Scudley- Haven't had our first coffee in the morning yet? :puzzled: I think it's clear to most that we mean much the same thing.
-Angus

So I was out buggying the other day, and was in a situation that I knew I would be able to make this upwind turn. I have tried a number of times, but it never really worked the way I wanted it to.

First of all, I was powered up... Second, I was going seemingly right into the wind at around 6 or 7 mph... Third the kite was high in the window, at about 12:30...

Add to the equation that I have failed attempts under my belt, so there are some things that I know not to do.

I think the key to the turn was having enough speed to turn against the pull of the kite (and the fact that the kites pull was reduced by being so high in the window), and having the kite in a spot that I was comfortable with... High with little pull, ready to bring into the powerzone the other way (dont rush this step).

All of that said... if you are having trouble staying upwind, I would recommend tightening up your turning radius and getting upwind before you focus on much else. When I find myself having trouble downwind it is usually because:

1. I dont have enough kite up
2. I love looping the kite.
3. I have too much kite up.

When I realize that I need to get upwind, it usually helps to slow my speeds down, stop looping the kite (harder than you would think), and really slowing down on my turns. Aiming way upwind when you get rolling pretty good will help also... you will know the limits when you are steering too far upwind.

Just to get clear on this, when you guys are taling about "the upwind turn" are you referring to what is really a "jibe," but executed after you you are pointing pretty far upwind. I.e, you are close hauled, but turning hard downwind and hard back upwind on the opposite tack.

Or are you actually talking about trying to "tack" the buggy from one close hauled tack through the wind to the other close hauled tack, with the buggy pointing upwind the entire time? Manage that on my sailboat handily, but have never done it with a kite.

krumly

The latter- upwind turn- a real "tack"

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Quote: Originally posted by acampbell The problem with an upwind turn is that it puts the kite behiind you for a moment. It can be done, but you better be confident about where the kite is and where it will be when you are done or.... ask Scudley. Sorry to correct you Alex, but being confident about where your kite is does not help. You have to be right (correct) about where your kite is or you are sure as sheet going to get yarded out the back of your buggy. Timing is everything. This is a trick that you should armour up to learn. MKB, you need to have a fair bit of wind to learn this one. S

Hey Scudley,

I tried an upwind turn yesterday with my 5.0 just when the wind was dropping off... I think that is the time to try an upwind turn so it happens a little slower than normal. It worked on the first try but i'm sure if I was fully powered my timing would have been off and an obe out the back would have happened.

I think Angus is correct in saying you need to know where your kite is... ie. timing!

Ron

im glad this topic is generating a lot of discussions! is has all been very helpful

Cool - a true tack with the buggy. Something to work on after the snow melts!

Suppose I can try it on skis.

krumly

The best tips I can give are:

1. Learn kite control; lay on your back with your head facing in wind direction and get the feel of steering the kite in this position ( this is how it feels if during the turn somthing goes wrong)

2.Learn how to ride backwards ( reverse) and how to spin the buggy around in the right direction.

3.When you decide to do the turn make sure that you have enough speed to get around the corner but not so much speed that the wheels start to slide.

4. don't monkey around start the turn and pull it through if anything goes wrong use tip 1 and 2 to get yourself back out of trouble then you don't have to worry about PHMeRGFMeRR (good one Scudley)

Chris

Speed is the key to the upwind turn.

In an upwind turn, there is a point where you will be facing directly away from the kite. This is when your buggy is turning away from the kite pointing dead into the wind as it crosses over to the new heading. If you don't have enough speed or if your kite is down to low in the window you will have an ejection. The ejection will be the kite ripping you backwards out of the buggy, usually bringing the buggy over on top of you while the kite does a fantastic power loop down through the window, dragging you backwards across the ground....kind of fun if you are into pain and don't like your skin where it is at.

The trick is to plan your turn well ahead before you begin it. As you start the upwind turn and before you change your heading, drop the kite down into the power to build up speed, shoot the kite out to the edge of the window as you start your turn upwind. The speed in which you turn upwind should match the speed of the kite heading out on the edge of the window. The kite will pull you around and begin the upwind turn for you - remember your going to shoot the kite out and past the normal edge of the window, using the buggy to keep the kite under power. Higher aspect ratio kites help with this as they can get out on the edge of the window further than the lower aspect ratio kites. Once you start passing the point that your kite stops accelerating then you need to start raising the kite to the apex while continuing your turn (normally at this point you would be frantically down-turning the kite to get it back in the wind window), don't down turn, instead use the buggy speed to keep the kite inflated and bring the kite overhead to the apex as you turn the buggy away from the kite. If your kite will fly in 5-6 mph winds, then having the buggy travel in an upwind turn at 5-6 mph will keep the kite flying even though the kite is not directly in the wind window - this is why speed is important for the turn to work. You don't want a ton of "Hail Mary" speed where your going to go balls out, just enough speed so that the buggy can complete the full turn without any power from the kite. If you turn to sharp your rear wheels will spin out and you will stop - not good. If you turn to wide (slow) then you will head upwind and stop - ejection. The speed should be constant and comfortable depending on the wind and your buggy speed. Faster speed, wider turn. Slower speed, quicker turn.

Now, when you get to the apex of the upwind turn, things start to get very hairy. The problem is that your kite will be heading overhead (and behind you), your arms will be extended out to the opposite side (direction you traveled from) than where the kite is going to go (and where your arms will need to be in the direction you want to go) and you will be putting a twist in the lines (you didn't loop the kite, you looped the buggy). This all happens at the time you are facing away from the kite - directly pointing into the wind. Here's a trick that works for me, as you start bringing the kite up overhead in your turn, bring your arms up over your head with it. Once you hit the apex of the turn you will need to flip your torso around to point into the new direction you are going to be heading and continue to turn the buggy around to match your torso. Once you flip (and after you regain your bearing and where the kite is) start to drop the kite down into the power in the new direction and it will pull you around to complete the turn.

If done properly, your skin will still be attached to your knees and elbows, the buggy will still have rubber side down with you on top of it (not the other way around), your kite will be flying with a twist in the lines but under control and you will have gained anywhere from 5 to 30+ feet upwind.

You can practice this without committing to it if the wind conditions are right. Just head out on a reach and gain a little speed, drop the kite on the edge and crank the buggy upwind hard while the kite is under power. Slowly bring the kite to apex just to get the feel. Once you star to slow down then turn the buggy back downwind on your normal reach and take off again. Do this a couple times and pay attention to how far upwind you can turn and where the kite is going. Once you get use to this and you feel comfortable with your speed and area, complete the upwind turn instead of turning back downwind, just remember to flip your torso around.

Thats about the best I can explain it...hope I didn't inverse anything and hope it is understandable.

Well done Kent, very well explained

I also think it is a good idea to get out of the buggy, before you try it for the first time and walk a tack turn with the kite, get used to where it is and what its doing, once you have done this a few time, try it in the buggy.

Thanks Popeye! Hope it helps someone out. Great idea on walking the turn first, that should help get the idea of how the kite is going to react while in the buggy.

I see you got a Yak, did you trade off the Access? How do you like the YaS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s and have you had a go on the new GT yet?

Interesting idea, I might have to give this a chance if I make it down to the beach this weekend...

There was some great video of this someone posted. Anyone remember where it is?

right on! with the walk through

every move i've ever made i walked it through, then run it through

downwind upwind crosswind all of it

backroll trans and all of it.... walk it ,run it, til i start thinking about something else then i jump on it and commit ...power, flow, timing all the same

gotta break it down

360 Upwind ... similar idea
http://xdream.homepage.dk/X-DREAM/mpg/360trick.mpg