Hello fellow arc users

Here's my background with ARCs.... I bought a 13m venom a few months back, and flew it a good amount during the time I had it. Just recently I had the opportunity to trade up to a 16m scorp, which i prompty jumped all over it. (we get low winds here in ID, and summer's comin').

The depower line that I had on my used zero4 bar needed replaced, so I purchased and replaced the depowerline. I found that it needs to be 23.6 inches long fully depowered?(i got this from the PL FAQ site) Which seems quite long, and I don't know if this is causing my issues.

Anyways, The issue is that when launching the kite stalls after taking shape and won't fly up. Relating to my foil experience, it's like a foil with brakes that are too tight. I try to run back and sometimes i can get it to "unstall" and it flies up. I have only gotten this thing up 2-3 times but yesterday I just couldn't get it up. It was light winds, but i think around 12mph when I was attempting to launch. Oh, I also checked the internal straps, they are set to completely loose (more depower, less grunt). And the trim strap is let out all the way.

Sorry to be long-winded but the other problem i had was when i finally got it up it had waaay too much power when fully depowered (at least i think?) Could it be possible that some setting I have is making it be fully powered at all times?
Here's my thoughts:

The depower line isn't the right length? It was just under 23" from the bottom knot to the top knot. (600mm is 23.6"). I found that in order for the lines to be the same length (unattached from the kite) the bar has to be in the middle of the depower line.

OR

? Man... I'm not sure. ANY advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance

I never owned any Scorpions, but I wouldn't think it would be from a depower line length. Is the VPC bridal on the Scorpion modded at all? Maybe that's the issue? ARCs aren't great low wind kites, but it should at least fly in 12mph. Is it fully inflated when launching and in the air? Also make sure the air inlets on the leading edge of the kite are fully open and not folded inside the kite blocking wind flow. Maybe some other Scorpion masters can relate past experiences to help you. I'm just adding more questions to the thought process.

A.

Hmmm. I don't think the VPC bridal has been modded. I did notice that it was inflated when I first was attempting to launch it and when I came back to see what was wrong it was deflated to the point where the zipper wasn't being held up by the air. I had been trying to launch it, running back, etc... So i don't think it had attempted to self-inflate yet thru the LE inlets.

I'll double-check the inlets though to make sure they're fully open.

try posting your question on the arcusers group in yahoo.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/

Also, this document has set up and tuning hints: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

Thanks

yeah... I used the FAQ to get the length measurements for the depower line length. I thot about posting to there. I'll post there if I don't hear anything else from the trusty PKF members :D

If your new depower line is a different length than before, you will need to adjust your back line leaders at the bar. All line ends should match up with the bar pulled all the way in and the kite end of the lines hooked to a stationary object. Something is out of whack somewhere. Find that spec sheet mentioned here many times and find the setup that fits your gear best. Then check each line length and relationship one at a time. I had to change everything about my bar to match it to my phantom but it flew perfect the first time out. That link has the word "tiscali" in it as a reference.

Ah HA! That could be the culprit! Thanks Bob! With the kite end at a stationary object, the lines were at equal length with the bar in the middle, not powered up!! (pulled all the way in). I will definitely be checking the TE lines. Thanks!

If your lines are matching up at half throw on the bar then you are way oversheeting with the bar pulled in, or in fixed bridle talk "putting the brakes on". Let us know what you work out.

One thing that has me somewhat confused in your post is that you state that the "Trim strap" is all the way out. - <And the trim strap is let out all the way.> If this means that the trim strap is at its fullest length then the kite is fully powered. You would want to put your strap at the shortest length in the lighter winds so you will have more forward drive of the kite.

Speed is power, so even if the kite is fully depowered, because it will have more speed it will seem to be powered up in that position as compared to when the trim strap is "powered up". When powering up the trim strap you will slow the kite down which will reduce the overall power of the kite.

With the strap all the way out and the bar at full depower position (closest to the kite) your center line attachments and our outside leaders should be at the same length. If your center line is longer then you will need to lengthen your outside leaders to match the difference. I wouldn't recommend shortening your depower line as these kites have huge amounts of depower and shortening the line will only limit this amount. I would only shorten the depower line if the bar happens to move out of reach in the depowered position when flying.

Hope this helps.

hmm yes that definitely helps Kent, thank you. It clears up some thoughts I had on the trip strap. Thank you! I'll post an update when I get a chance to check all these things.

a common mod for the scorp is to add extentions on the rear pigtails. this in turn lengthens your back lines and stops stalling.

another good tip for launching a scorp is, on launch keep abit of backline tension. this stops bowtieing which scorps are remowned for.

Out of all the twin skin line up - the Scorpion is the twitchiest on launch issues. I've flown them all and still own a few sizes of Scorps. A brand new Scorpion will be the worst for this and it will get better as things stretch out more.
First off, the intake ports will be stuck together from being packed up tightly for a while - really work these around in your hands to loosen and open them up - make sure you don't pull them to trap them on the wrong side of the internal webbing - then they will get pinched off and not allow inflation.
The key is get as much air as possible into a Scorp - they won't climb as easily to the zenith and inflate as other TwinSkins. Not fully inflated they will climb to about 40-45 degrees and sit there - even with our older Scorpions in light wind you can coax and coax those front lines and it's very difficult to inflate.
With all the others TwSkns you can launch them partially inflated - The scorpion if partially inflated can shoot too fast forward, the centre will collapse and you'll get a bowtie. It's a delicate balance of letting it fly forward enough while keeping some rear line tension so it won't overfly until full.
Light wind is very difficult - a good clean moderate wind and they usually launch fine. Gusty conditions can create havoc on the small sizes. We run into the most blown launches using the smaller sizes in the winter. Sitting on a frozen lake they fully inflate but when zipped a fair amount of air gets pushed out and unless you have assisted launch they often launch a bit soft and then we deal with extremely gusty winds when it's high enough wind for smaller kites, so it compounds the problem of overfly, tip clapping, centre collapse.
Compared to a Scorpion all others are a no brainer - the Scorps take a different feel and eventually you'll get the instinct for what will be a clean launch and when to wait or perhaps re-set.
It will get better with some higher wind flying and breaking in the kite - with my 16 I only have the dead climb issues when I'm trying to milk it on the lightest end of it's wind range.
- may need a few inches of rear line extensions on your set-up
- make sure you open and work the entry ports
- get as much air as possible inside for a launch
- make sure you are not trying to fly it in too light of wind - but don't do anything unsafe if not sure about conditions
- have the bar depowered for launch but not so much that you can't tighten up the rear lines a little to keep it from shooting up too fast
- if it sits low and just rocks there - grab the two front lines and gently coax the kite and every tug you should see the internal bulge expand as it fills up from the bottom up.

With most designs we've taught dozens of guys to do various kite activities in one outing - the kites launch easy, stable etc. When teaching or trying to sell a twinskin the Scorpions are the last kite we pull out to show a launch unless conditions are perfect - and giving them to an unexperienced Arc flier can be a bit frustrating until they learn the kites quirks. Once flying - they are great. And it's not every single Scorpion, but quite a few of them like this. We also fy them on a longer throw bar for a greater range of power to depower without needing to go to a trim strap on the fly. (yes I know I still have to post a bunch of people on this one)
Hope a bit of this helps - stick with it - show it who's boss
Mark

:eekdrull: Great!!!! I'll get this thing flying correctly this weekend. I'm STOKED, thanks for all the effort you guys have put forth to help me out. So what I'm going to do is:

#1 check the length of my rear lines, and make sure that they are all measured out correctly
#2 check the intake ports to make sure they're not stuck together
#3 make sure it's as inflated as possible
#4 when launching keep rear line tension, as well as tug the front lines if it stalls
#5 FLY THE DAMN THING! :bouncy:

when launching not a lot of rear tension just enough to keep it from shooting forward too fast if it's not fully inflated. If it's a bit soft, it will surge forward, the leading edge dimples inward and changes the angle of intake ports slightly and if it's gusty once it surges forward and hits a lull or overflys then the leading edge drops down and you'll get a collapse or inversion unless you run forward right away to get the kite to open up.

So just a bit of tension - delicate touch, you still want it to climb - just not shooting forward too fast if it's soft.

All flying lines should be equal but you will need a short line extension on the rear lines - make a short pigtail extension with knots at around 6-8 inches to larks head onto.

If it's just hanging out front and won't inflate and climb, that point it stalls is really difficult to steer - you can't really wave it back and forth to inflate when it sits there. Coax it higher, try and wave it a little but it may just drop back down until you get closer to 80-85% air. Some days it'll climb beautifully and sometimes just sits. In the last year or so I may have only encountered that maybe a couple of times (on very light wind days), the rest of the time good launches. But when it was new it hung there 1-2 times out of 3 launches.

This is what I thought was a really cool picture of my Phantom with the luxury of having two handlers to hold it for a light wind hot launch. This is one technique to make sure it is fully inflated before launching. In case of a gust, we worked out which one would let go and which one would turn loose if things got out of hand for any reason. That is Mgatc and I holding the kite. Phreerider is back at the bar checking everything out before we let her fly.

Try this link to the spec sheet for Peter Lynns.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm