We are currently playing with the idea to make a second Phantom,
nothing concrete yet but via this way I would like to hear if there's interest in such a kite and what the improvements should be?
Graphic scheme?
Handling?
speed?

Judging by the second hand market for the now 5 year old Phantoms, I can't imagine it not being successful. With my limited experience with the Phantom, adding the launch assist tabs and moving the inflation zip from the center to both ends (for lighter wind inflation) would be a great update. Beyond that, see if the high A/R could benefit from design elements you've learned about through subsequent models like cell shape and count, vent number and size, vpc or not, etc.

The graphics on the Phantom are probably the most distinctive of any kite ever made in my opinion. You could manipulate it, but don't take away the scary guy.

Please do this.

I think a Phantom II would appeal to buggiers. Have you had any sort of demand from other parts of the world? The people on this site seem to love the old Phantom. I used to own an 18M Phantom but got rid of it as soon as I flew the Venoms. For the type of kiting I do, they were just so much better. Another twin skin buggy kite would be great though if for no other reason to help grow the twin skin line. It's sad to see only one Twinskin in the line up, but when I thought about it, the Synergy was pretty much a one kite solution for me. It handles water, snow and land great and is better then another any other ARC I've owned.

But there were definatly alot of old Phantoms at NABX this year so maybe there is a market for them. I don't buggy enough to justify one but there are quite a few people here that do. If you do a re-run, I'd keep a similar cool graphic scheme. The Phantom was one of the coolest looking twinskins. As far as handling and speed... I think I'd keep it the exact same as the old Phantom. It seems that most of these people like exactly how the old one was. If you change it too much, I think you could stand the chance of losing the market of people that miss the phantom enough for it make a comeback. I'd keep the same kite, add some zippers on each end instead of the middle, some aluminum spars instead of the carbon and slap some new graphics on it and a new bar. Phantom II. Done.

This will be an interesting thread to watch.

Marijn, I do not have enough fly time on a Phanny to comment of flight characteristics, but the convenience features Bobby mentioned are an easy call, I think. As for the graphics, I think Mark Groshen's famous picture of Ziggy at NABX says it all.

One small thing, a revised shirt with the Phantom face on the back would be tres cool.

Just add the zips on the larger ones, not needed on the 6m and 9m. I think that 67.8 with a phantom should speak loud enough! These kites provide the right power and confidence to break speed records.............aj

no pulleys , simple always better

when i first worked with P15... i thought more intakes, but it was a water recovery thing compared to venoms.

discovery dusting off the old , to make new

fun

As long as it has the metal spars instead of the old carbon spars LOL. The 12 phantom was probably my favorite kite I've ever owned besides my 13 scorpion. It was fast, I can't imagine how fast it would be with vpc! thanks for considering bringing it back Marjin!

a Phantom II sounds like a great idea!


my wishlist would include:

launch assists

wing tip zips

optional pulley to reduce bar pressure

new colors but similar graphics

overpressure valves/flaps

small sizes available <10m

braided carbon spars instead of linear to reduce the risk of splitting


if there's any way to improve water relaunching I think it would be highly beneficial too. I'm not sure if a 5th line would ever help but it seems like it might be worth trying :eureka:

hey so I was just thinking.....has peter lynn ever tried inflatable spars on the wing tips? I know we kinda have a "no pump" policy when it comes to foils but I'm just thinking if there was only 2 struts they could be small, durable, easy to replace and probably wouldn't take more then 2 pumps each to inflate.

just an idea....probably a bad one but figured I'd throw it out there.


floating wingtips might make the water relaunch aspect easier too. maybe?

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Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate if there's any way to improve water relaunching I think it would be highly beneficial too. I'm not sure if a 5th line would ever help but it seems like it might be worth trying :eureka:

I've done my fair share of water kiting with the Phantom.. Here's an old pic of my P18:



But in my opinion I don't know why someone would rather water kite with a phantom then a synergy. The fact that it's high aspect and long and skinny which makes the phantom great for the buggy doesn't make it great for water launching. If it was your only kite, it works, but there are much better ARCs for water and I don't think a Phantom II should focus on meeting that requirement. I'd make it excel at land and nothing else to offer distinct advantage over the other current twinskins.

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But in my opinion I don't know why someone would rather water kite with a phantom then a synergy. The fact that it's high aspect and long and skinny which makes the phantom great for the buggy doesn't make it great for water launching. If it was your only kite, it works, but there are much better ARCs for water and I don't think a Phantom II should focus on meeting that requirement. I'd make it excel at land and nothing else to offer distinct advantage over the other current twinskins.

I agree fully with this statement. If you do decide to go forward with the Phantom II, I would make it very land specific because competing with it on water would be a waste of time - mainly because of the Synergy and the new Charger which is pretty much water specific.

I would make it very high aspect ratio - something near the older F-Arc (what a machine), maybe include a couple more intake vents for easier/quicker inflation - unless of course that causes some problems with the internal pressures. Must have larger amounts of adjustments in both the wingtips as well as the center and must have VPC with as much depower as possible.

It would be great if you could make some in the smaller sizes, less than 10 meters but with the higher aspect ratio that may not be possible because of the loss of light wind performance. If you could have something that you could adjust for massive lift or massive speed then that would greatly appeal to both the land boarders (snow) and buggiers. For the buggy you don't want any lift at all, just speed. Kind of the opposite for land boarders.

Also for the land boarders, speed is not a necessity so even if the kite was slower, as long as it had massive lift and hang time without stalling (or at least very fast instant acceleration if it does stall) that would be optimal.

Another thing that would be great is if you could come up with some type of safety release system similar to the Ozone re-ride system. Maybe if the vents in the leading edge were full open without the valves and when you pulled the safety the kite would flap back on it's trailing edge while the bar stayed attached so it would minimize line tangles and make it easier to get going again. Also if you didn't need the internal pressure of the kite for flight, landing and launching the kite may be easier for the land use. This would obviously not work for the water but that would be what the Synergy and Charger are for.

Quite a tall order for you to start designing on but if you could get most if not all of these things covered then I feel it could really put a different face on land kiting as we know it today.

Just my opinions (and some crazy ideas) anyways.

I agree with most of what people have wished for. But the one, IMO, huge change with the synergy was the shaped panels. The kite is so much tighter; the trailing edge doesn't look so much like a bunch of sausages, and the leading edge fabric is taunt. Incredibly easy inflation (once, in really light wind, I got a 10m Synergy inflated in flight with it ony being about 1/2 inflated on the ground). If these aspects of the synergy could be applied to the phantom, wow, that would be one great kite.

And, if the bridles were the correct length for a standard bar setup, that would be great. I hate having to tune my synergies by adding bottom leaders on the kite.

NABX was an eye opener with AJ and Ziggy doing mad speeds with it.
I myself didn't expect to see Twinskins used as buggy engines, but talking to different people made clear that there is some demand.
And then there is also the UK market where the Phantom is primarily used for landboarding and there the good ol phantom almost has a a cult status.

Thanks for the already helpful insights, keep em comin'

yeah. what Kent said sounds sweet and doesn't seem unreasonable.
i'd be real interested in PL PII if it had/did all that. i like the idea of smaller(high wind) sizes too.

"build it, they will come"......................................:duh::duh:

beef up the spar pockets and sticks, keep the original graphics, and put me down for a pre order on a 12m..........................................:duh::duh:

can you guys make the spars out of adamantium? I think this might be a good selling point

I'd be all over it. My Phantom 15 is the kite that took me to the skies for the first time and I'll never forget it (therefore I'm officially biased). The only issues I'd be critical of are the spar pockets that tend to weather, dry and split open as the kites age - I've repaired three pockets now, and the spars themselves which the alum might solve (all mine are carbon). Move the inflate zips to the tips and it's even more of a winner.

Curious how the Phannys compare to the Scorpions though - I thought the Scorp was the land based successor to the Phantom, no? Matters not. If I were the sort to buy a kite because of the graphics the Phantom would win hands down. As a bonus you get a free Halloween decoration ; )

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Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate a Phantom II sounds like a great idea! my wishlist would include: launch assists does the little velcro flap on the newer models help? wing tip zips placing zippers too close to the wingtip weakens the construction too much I think, since the wingtips often hit first in a crash. optional pulley to reduce bar pressure more pulleys? I´m not sure, more stuff on the barsystem makes things complicated I think. I hope the new bar offers enough adjustment but I haven´t tried it yet so I´m anxious to report more info on the new design new colors but similar graphics I personally agree, let´s hope the majority feels the same way overpressure valves/flaps experimented with it, but how would you have these valves work at exactly the right time (of impact) and close them when job done? small sizes available <10m the range of sizes that we have now covers all the "kiteable" winds (6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 19 and 24mtrs) so we´ll most likely continue carrying about the same sizes braided carbon spars instead of linear to reduce the risk of splitting I think we´ll equip them with the current aluminium ones, unless we stumble upon a better option. if there's any way to improve water relaunching I think it would be highly beneficial too. I'm not sure if a 5th line would ever help but it seems like it might be worth trying :eureka:

The request on the inflation zippers is I think to move them towards the end instead of being directly in the center which makes inflation lengthy in lighter winds. While already in the shop for a repair I moved my Phantom's zipper into the first black fabric cell such as on the venoms or synergy. Much easier inflation. I can post a picture if it will help. Launch assist tabs would be a big help if the wind is flopping the kite and you don't have a helper.

So I was thinking about this a bit more and think one other thing that PL should be mindful of is setup / launch/ packup times and procedures. I was out at the lake yesterday watching some Flysurfers get unpacked, launched, ridden and packed away. The kites started in the small backpacks, launched as quick as the lines could be unrolled from the bars (yes, I agree the FS bridles can be a pain some times) and then packed up into the same size bag it came in.

I was reminded of one of the last light wind snowkite days here where I was waiting for the fill as I inserted the spars, attached the lines, zipped and unzipped etc. Meanwhile a Pulse 2 set up, launched and was already on a return tack while I was finally creeping skyward. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the PLs and think that the pros far outweigh the cons. I just figured if you were asking I should say so.

PL can be packed the same

-spars in
-lines attached
still have the fill and zip but quicker
i have unpacked walked out the lines and fill in <5min easy

True enough Phree. My V16 has one piece spars and I just find it easier to leave 'em in since no matter how small I could pack the kite it'd still have long spars needing a home. Never did try rolling it all up leaving the lines attached......I'd guess it'd be much like rolling up the Psycho (lines around the bar to the kite, then bar wrapped up in the kite. Still, it's nice to have a small package....you know...for those lucky ones that get to hit the airport with their gear and in the back seat of the car.

Maybe they gotta go right back to their roots with the rocket launcher bag? They could likely make a rocket launcher backpack........I must admit - I don't mind the bag for the G10. Works for me AND if need be I can pack the kite, the bar, my wetsuit and booties and then I can buckle my harness around the bag. Sling it all over my shoulder and off I go.

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BeamerBob The graphics on the Phantom are probably the most distinctive of any kite ever made in my opinion. You could manipulate it, but don't take away the scary guy.

Amen. The graphics are very clean and distinctive. In all it's a beautiful kite. While I can imagine a few subtle tweaks to distinguish it, the base concept and execution are fantastic. Please keep the graphics presentation simple, elegant, and distinctive.

MJ,

Have you, (Peter Lynn), made a decision on the Phantom IIs? Take a look at the forum, arcs have gained huge momentum with AJ and Phree leading the way. I say ride the wave and do it!:duh::duh:

and Carltb................sorry Carl........................................

Marjin,

I think you should really look into the blow out valves for the PL kites. We have installed a couple blow out valves in the past and they are not really that difficult to do. Usually just a roll of material folded up inside the kite and attached with Velcro. These valves would be used for high pressure crashes and blow out to relieve the internal shockwave of pressure in the kite - to prevent blowing out a rib. Once the valves blew you would have to manually close the valve again....unless you used a system similar to the flysurfers with re-closeable flaps.

For water use this would be harder to implement just because you wouldn't want the blow out valve to engage and let water into the kite or make the kite unlaunchable....but for land use this wouldn't be an issue as the valve would need to be reset and then you could relaunch the kite again. I would much rather spend a couple minutes resetting the blow out valve than have to send the kite in for a major repair to a couple cells.

Just something to think about.

Good point Kent.

With P.L. being a mechanical engineer I expected the value of blow outs has been weighed already ?

I see them as an item that will drive the cost up and a bit of an extra. To be able to special order with blow outs installed would be nice but I would rather see the cost kept down ?

I wonder how many kites would be saved with blow outs ? I suppose the few times an arc actually crashes it is hard.

Whats all this about blow out valves?

Marijn was asking about a Phantom II, not the Phantom 2000, Mark 5, V2.4.5.6 rev.d (beta) :-)

I agree about the Aluminum sticks and launch assist tabs. These items are in production and don't need R&D

Having just flown the Phantom 18m in 4-5 mph winds, I'm not sure you even need to move the zippers. I opened the zip, inflated the downwind half, closed the zip, folded the downwind half over to push the air to the upwind half, opened the zip to re-fill the downwind half, closed zip and launched. 10 min. or less.

Besides, who is suddenly crashing ARCs so bad we need blow-out valves? About the only way you can do that is grab the wrong end of the bar by accident. Otherwise how can you crash a kite that auto-zeniths?. You guys getting senile?

All kidding aside, lets not throw any impediments to getting they Phanny back in production.

don't aluminum spars corrode and didn't there used to be a warning about using aluminum spars because they could break and damage the pockets?

just wondering if they were ever redesigned since everything I've ever read says stay away from using aluminum.



when I referred to pulleys to reduce bar pressure I meant on the kite not the bar. I think the synergy has something like this although I'm not sure exactly what its for, I assumed it was for bar pressure


Also I like the old rocketlauncher style bag idea too. I use one piece fiberglass spars in my phantom 12m and when I bought the kite it didn't come with the phantom bag instead it had an old S-Arc sail style bag. it allows me to keep the kite R2F with bar, lines, spars all hooked up and ready to go in a nice package.