Power Kite Forum

LEI's are better after all

 Pages:  1    3

bloah - 20-7-2009 at 07:06 PM

Just sold my final foil, and am not regretting...

LEI's in my opinion better in every way besides low wind.
But yet again silver arrow will only get you 2 extra knots!
And yes I got going in 6 knots with Speed 17, but it is no fun at all!
better to wait for 8 knots and can get going with my 16 lei which at least turns descently.

Stability:
LEI definetely win here. Foils dont like gusty condition. They loose their shape way to easy.

Winner - LEI

Top End:
As there is more wind speed, the more gusty it gets in my experience. Whether it is frontal winds or trade winds in Cuba, same story. Lei handle gusts better, (not even peter lynn from my experience)

Winner - LEI

Low End:
Foils are better in it without a doubt. They are definetely more efficient.

Winner - Foil

Depower:
Psycho 4 and Pulse 2, when fully depowered in the top end, perform incredibly #@%$#!ty, especially P4 during jump-downloop transition, it's tips in 25 knots, start flipping like crazy! Lei doesnt have that problem. When you depower you still have control of a kite.

Winner LEI

Windrange:
About the same for modern bow kites and foils, yet again, foils fly relatively worse in their top end then lei. Lei's I tried tend to be phenomenal in their top range. Psycho 4 was really good between 15-20 knots, but with higher gusts it becomes too unstable.

Winner LEI

Safety:
Death and life wise, both safeties system on lei's and foils work well. The only thing, it is very hard to make a self rescue with foil although everysingle time I did successfully, yet with lots of swearing. So safety wise both are about the same, but self rescue wise lei's are better.

Winner - Both

Turning Speed:
Without a doubt, LEI's turn faster. Some may say that they don't need fast turning kite, but try jumping on 12 meter pulse 2 and then try on lei. Lei would be way better as you have more time to redirect the kite. P4 was alright, but still a bit too slow. I find jumping way easier on LEI's. Okey I am not saying you can't jump with P4, You can, it is just requires more skills then with LEI's.

Winner - LEI

Inflation:
Well, speed of setup goes to foil. It takes me 2 minutes and I am on water. LEI's it takes about 10-15 minutes.
Landing LEI's is easier, because again, foil's tend to collapse near ground and it is hard to catch sometimes. Especially p4. P2 is way more stable.

Winner - Foil.

So the final Verdict is 5 For LEI and 2 for Foils.

Bottom Line for me was that, I couldn't progress any further with foils so I decided to switch my top end kite from foil to waroo 9 meter. I liked it so much that I got 12 meter Rhino. And now I figured that spleene door accounts for most of low end, not the kite, so there went my 17 to st.catharine.

FloRider - 20-7-2009 at 07:15 PM

I think there are way to many foils and LEI's to make definitive statements for each category since they differ so much, brand to brand, even model to model. But I like the idea of a comparison. I just think you should use less generalized statements like LEI to foil, and more specific examples like Speed2 to Best Waroo.


My two cents.

snobdr - 20-7-2009 at 07:19 PM

Ahh a breath of fresh air. I fly mostly north, 14 rhino is my goto kite now. The depower is amazing. Huge windrange. Lets no forget the easy relaunch of LEIs.
Ill have to disagree on the gust munching, the PLs are just a bit smoother. Its close though depending on which LEI.
I cant wait to see where this goes as it seem to be a foil majority on here.

bloah - 20-7-2009 at 07:23 PM

By Foils I mean Flysurfers.

Peterlynn's in gusty wind like to flag out. Lei's Keep their shape and backstall. For the sake of argument BY LEI'S I mean the best LEI's on a market, and by Foil's I mean Best foils (for water use) that are on market, and its either Flysurfer or Peter Lynn.

lad - 20-7-2009 at 07:30 PM

Are you not using these for land traction? (your avatar hold a landboard).

BeamerBob - 20-7-2009 at 07:30 PM

This one will be busy for awhile. I think it is high time we hash this out. There are many guys that have crossed over. Some have stuck with Peter Lynns, others more traditional foils such as FS and NEOs. Others have converted to LEIs. Let the discussion begin.

One category not mentioned was durability measured in years. I know there is the odd LEI out there that has been used for 5 years and still works great but how consistent is that? Can they be effectively used on land?

Another is resale value. Lets see how that stacks up with those that have seen both sides. Lots of demand for 2004 LEIs today? Much less a remake of a 5 year old design with only a few minor changes?

Upwind performance?

Lets talk about it all and while we probably won't be able to declare a winner everyone can agree on, maybe we can get a balanced laundry list like above with all things considered.

snobdr - 20-7-2009 at 07:32 PM

Your not talking about gusting your talking about dropping winds or lulls.

nwsurfwakeskate - 20-7-2009 at 07:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by live2hover
I think there are way to many foils and LEI's to make definitive statements for each category since they differ so much, brand to brand, even model to model. But I like the idea of a comparison. I just think you should use less generalized statements like LEI to foil, and more specific examples like Speed2 to Best Waroo.


My two cents.


I agree with this statement. Way too many generalizations here. I'm happy you found SLE's work better for you and your beaches riding style/personal preferences etc. but that doesn't mean they are "better for everyone."

I agree SLE's are great for nuking winds. in fact I have an eclipse 10m that I use for those conditions.

I personally think both styles of kites have there advantages and disadvantages. Foils are definitely a niche and most people at the beach will tell you they are gay or old school or whatever but the bottom line is try lots of different kites, fly what feels right to you and works the best for your beaches. not what someone tries to tell you will be best.

bloah - 20-7-2009 at 07:38 PM

my thesis is that for WATER use, LEI's are better after all compared to Flysurfers. And primary argument is actually performance on water. The resale value and the life of a foil are important too, but in my opinion they are secondary considerations

I do hold a landboard there, but I sold it, as I find it more enjoyable to ride on water then on land.

And no I mean gusts, not lulls, When it lulls in Ontario the kite fall down. But yeah silver arrow tends to stay up there.

bloah - 20-7-2009 at 07:41 PM

nwsurfwakeskate
definetely people should use whatever they like and what fits them. I gave my foils 10 pulse, 12 P2 and 12 P4 to try to other people and they consistently preffered LEI"s. Then I tried LEI's and saw for myself, that they do exceed in many areas. I am not saying that Flysurfers are bad kites, but what I do say that with confidence from experience, that in order to progress faster, it is beneficial to switch to LEI's because of the reasons I outlines originally.

BeamerBob - 20-7-2009 at 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bloah
nwsurfwakeskate
definetely people should use whatever they like and what fits them. I gave my foils 10 pulse, 12 P2 and 12 P4 to try to other people and they consistently preffered LEI"s. Then I tried LEI's and saw for myself, that they do exceed in many areas. I am not saying that Flysurfers are bad kites, but what I do say that with confidence from experience, that in order to progress faster, it is beneficial to switch to LEI's because of the reasons I outlines originally.


So this isn't really an ARC/LEI discussion then?

nwsurfwakeskate - 20-7-2009 at 07:59 PM

Personally I prefer foils for riding in up to about 30mph winds.

Reasons why:

Upwind ability (Pulse 2 and P4 seem to be on pair with an SLE for upwind but get on a Speed 2 and you'll be finding yourself jumping and riding toeside to keep from getting too far upwind of the pack)

Hangtime (Pulse 2 and P4 both act a lot like SLE's in this catagory but I have found they sit at zenith better when you're hanging where as SLE's have to be worked back n forth to keep them over your head and keep from dropping you like a rock. Speed 2 feels like a glider when you leave the water. super stable and hangs you up there for awhile :))

Lightwind lift (I can start jumping earlier and bigger then other riders on equivalently sized LEI's)

Lightwind/windshadowed relaunch (Flysurfers can relaunch in lighter conditions then any LEI I've seen on the market)

Durability

No pumping (no big deal on small kites but try pumping a 17m sometime. that's a work out!)

Pack smaller (most of the beaches I ride at require a bit of a walk to get to. its nice to be able to carry 2 kites in one bag and not worry about my pump breaking or getting lost. Also this is great for traveling with a golf bag)

Versatility (water,snow,land)



I choose foils even knowning that I will be called gay in the forums for flying wet sleeping bags and crap like that. and that no SLE repair shop will want to touch my kite. People on the beach will always hesitate to catch my kite and I will always have a higher risk for tangles and weeds making my life more complicated on the water. I also understand that I will always have to be familiar with my gear and understand how mixers work and how to "tune" a kite. for me the advantages heavily out weigh the disadvantages.

the funny part is that people around here are starting to respect me as a rider now that they are seeing I can throw down behind my kookchute/wet sleeping bag. I get up wind of "everyone" and go bigger and float longer then any other kite on the water with the exception of Powerzone who is also on Flysurfers.

Sure I can't turn my kite as fast but honestly. I hate fast turning. it kicks my butt every time I botch a jump i tweak the bar just a little tiny bit and my thruster tomahawks into the water leaving me free falling from 20ft. Sure kiteloops are much more difficult but I'm not really interested in doing those anyway since I'm not dying to have knee surgery any time soon. the local forum here has about a half dozen guys with blown knees right now because of crap like kiteloops.

when I'm out on the speed 2. I tell them its not me its the kite. Its always great to see the expression on there face as they realize. "hey maybe these flysurfers ARE good kites for the water"

Again. try lots of kites and fly what works best for you.


my thruster will be for sale soon now that I have the P4 back in my quiver

bottom line.

oldschool, big air, board offs, speed and upwind park and ride. foils may be better. I certainly think the speed 2 stands out.

new school, SLE's are probably going to be a better bet for unhooked, strapless, wave style riding.

_MG_5057.JPG - 212kB

tridude - 20-7-2009 at 08:03 PM

you may be correct for your inland/wind conditions but for here on the coast, Flysurfers are awesome...............................................Peter Lynns are awesome anywhere.................................
good luck with the new quiver....................

nwsurfwakeskate - 20-7-2009 at 08:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tridude
you may be correct for your inland/wind conditions but for here on the coast, Flysurfers are awesome...............................................Peter Lynns are awesome anywhere.................................
good luck with the new quiver....................


I ride flysurfers inland.

Most of my launches have clean wind though. I have definitely seen foils have more trouble with wind rotors but around here we have so many choices for places to ride its pretty easy to avoid those more dangerous launches. and SLE will handle them a little better but they can still fall out of the sky powering up on there way down to the ground. I've seen it happy many times....

snobdr - 20-7-2009 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

I personally think both styles of kites have there advantages and disadvantages. Foils are definitely a niche and most people at the beach will tell you they are gay or old school or whatever but the bottom line is try lots of different kites, fly what feels right to you and works the best for your beaches. not what someone tries to tell you will be best.

Why do those on this site try to jam foils down your throat?

Someone said resale value, for one LEI have seen huge changes over the last few years, so the old 2004 kites dont hold their value. We do however still see brand new c kites. slingshot fuel, flexifoil hadlow pro, ect. So there are remakes of old kites. Hell Best has even brought back the Yarga.

I here about the durability of kites, how foils are so much better. LEIs always have bladder problems. This just dosent hold true. Take care of either foil or LEI and they will last. Crash alot, drag them across the ground, they wont last as long. Both can rip or be torn. LEIs have bladders that can pop. Foils have bridals that stretch and tear out. I can replace a bladder and the kite flys like new, replace bridals and theres alot of tweaking to get it to fly like it was new.

Lets talk about relaunch. Someone ripping across wipes out, or pulls safety, lines go slack kite piles in. 75% of the time an LEI will be in the air faster then a foil. Most new LEIs its as simple as pulling an outside line.

Upwind, depends on wind conditions, Light wind ill have to say foils, Pile on some high end gusty stuff and ill take an LEI.
Old school old guy riding= Foil, Hard core wakestyle, ripping of some waves, or first water starts =LEIs.

If foils were that good wouldnt all the pros be riding them? Wouldnt all the schools be using them.

Gee i ride the coast and i can count how many foil guys there are on one hand. Heck the whole week i was in hatters i only saw one guy on a foil and he was with us.

I snowkited in NY and Vermont and id say it was 50/50.
Sure if i had extra cash id pick up some foils for snowkiting. Pumping in cold sucks. But my LEIs work just as good for that.

Few weeks back was kiting a local spot, rigging up, and a guy was asking about my buddy on his PL. After explaining to him about it , i told him
"Its all the same, just different."

domdino - 20-7-2009 at 08:37 PM

For the most part you are just giving your personal preference apart from the gusts in the upper wind range which i completely agree with, i'm not a fan of small flysurfers at all :)

However, the 12m speed 2 is revolutionary in every way, simply amazing the lift is out of this world, if you fly in 10-25mph wind like i have not found anything that will beat that kite for jumps and soaring upwind

I have had more kites than i care to count and at the moment i have two small ocean rodeos and two large flysurfers and i'm pretty much perfectly happy :)

I am a little sad the way flysurfer seems to be trying to make their kites just turn as fast as they can and make them feel more like inflatables. They should know better than that. People who ride inflatables will dislike flysurfers at first no doubt, it takes getting used to but i just prefer them in my wind range. Flysurfers should be designed for old school, huge air, great upwind - in my opinion - that's exactly what the speed2 is and i think it's the best kite they've made. If they do want to make any changes then should refine it for more vertical lift and not worry about turning speed too much.

When i was learning to do tricks turning speed was great and i loved having my 10m SLE for that so i could redirect fast and get the hand movement of redirecting successfully sealed in my brain but now i just love doing huge floaty jumps on my speed2 its much more fun.

But i'm glad you've found kites you're happy with :)

nwsurfwakeskate - 20-7-2009 at 08:52 PM

well said dom!

I definitely agree. The speed 2 12m is in its own class.

If I could somehow get my thruster to turn a bit slower I'd consider keeping it. but my last session on it pretty much firmed it up in my mind that my skill level does not meet the requirements to fly such a twitchy kite. maybe I should get a 6m or 8m ocean rodeo as a replacement for it if the 10m P4 ends up being too big for riding in the gorge...

domdino - 20-7-2009 at 08:57 PM

Ok before i seem like a foil loving hippie, i love kites, not just foils, i just think you're not really talking from experience, rather just the opinion that you don't like foils without giving them the time of day.

Quote:
Why do those on this site try to jam foils down your throat?
do we?? I wasn't aware of this... people here like to talk about how much they like their kites sure but i don't think that's true at all, this is a very nice forum with lots of nice people having fun...

Quote:
Someone said resale value, for one LEI have seen huge changes over the last few years, so the old 2004 kites dont hold their value. We do however still see brand new c kites. slingshot fuel, flexifoil hadlow pro, ect. So there are remakes of old kites. Hell Best has even brought back the Yarga.

I do see your point, but i've sold hundreds of kites and here's a little comparison of some kites is sold about the same time
Fuel 2008, brand new, sold for $500
Pulse 2 2008, used about 30 times, sold for $1000
Ocean Rodeo Rise 2008 10m, used once, sold for $700
Flysurfer Psycho4 10m, used 8 times, sold for $1400
I always almost make my money back on foils i buy, i almost always take a loss on LEIs i buy...

Quote:
I here about the durability of kites, how foils are so much better. LEIs always have bladder problems. This just dosent hold true. Take care of either foil or LEI and they will last. Crash alot, drag them across the ground, they wont last as long. Both can rip or be torn. LEIs have bladders that can pop. Foils have bridals that stretch and tear out. I can replace a bladder and the kite flys like new, replace bridals and theres alot of tweaking to get it to fly like it was new.

I agree, apart from the tweaking, i never tweak my flysurfers and i've never had to replace a bridle and i've never had to have one repaired... i treat my kites well... my inflatables i've had 2 of them blow out completely randomly in the sky. I love them still :)

Quote:
Lets talk about relaunch. Someone ripping across wipes out, or pulls safety, lines go slack kite piles in. 75% of the time an LEI will be in the air faster then a foil. Most new LEIs its as simple as pulling an outside line.

Relaunch is something that experienced riders are good at, on any kite whatever. Flysurfers, in my opinion, are much easier to relauch than CKites, the same easyness to relaunch as SLEs and bows and much easier to relaunch in lower winds than both. I can relaunch my LEIs in whatever wind stregthin under a minute everytime. The pulse2/p4 is exactly the same relaunch speed as an sle, just pull one rear line. No difference.... UNLESS my kite rolls in the wave, i've rolled my flysurfers in the waves before, i've got it back up in the air 2 times out of about 8 times i've done it, my SLEs i normally can get back up without beaching it...

Quote:
Upwind, depends on wind conditions, Light wind ill have to say foils, Pile on some high end gusty stuff and ill take an LEI.
Old school old guy riding Foil, Hard core wakestyle, ripping of some waves, or first water starts LEIs.
Yup, but i'm 26, do i fit in the old guy bracket? I'm happy because i'm all about the big air and in my 8 years of riding i can outjump myself on a speed2 by about 10feet to a compatible LEI...

Quote:
If foils were that good wouldnt all the pros be riding them? Wouldnt all the schools be using them.
i cant be bothered to go through this argument again it's so silly... pros ride the companies that pay to send them round the world riding their kites... foil companies have terrible terrible PR in my opinion as well as not having as much money to spend on luxuries like pro riders and competition fees...

Quote:
Gee i ride the coast and i can count how many foil guys there are on one hand. Heck the whole week i was in hatters i only saw one guy on a foil and he was with us.

Why do you think it's about quality? When i was learning, i learnt on what my friends had, a slingshot fuel, then i tried a guerilla and prefered that, now i prefer the fuel again but that's another story... the only people riding foils are people with no friends :) haha, no i mean people who like experimenting with different technologies ----- they are hard to get a hold of, rarely on ebay, never in your local shop... That's why you don't see them.

Quote:

Few weeks back was kiting a local spot, rigging up, and a guy was asking about my buddy on his PL. After explaining to him about it , i told him
"Its all the same, just different."

Exactly right... it is all the same... apart from the speed 2 ;)
Don't knock it unless you've tried it.


Sorry for that long old post :)

Kamikuza - 20-7-2009 at 09:09 PM

Depends where you go here, seems to be regional trends - where I am, 99% of people fly those Sigma kites. But on the other coast 99% of people are flying the bow things ...

rudeboysaude - 20-7-2009 at 09:12 PM

One of my kite buddies has a truck. It has a V8 and lots of power and he can haul stuff, but it sucks gas.

My other kite buddy has a sports car. It's fast, really fast but it cost more and still doesn't get great gas mileage and he can't fit alot of gear in there.

My other buddy has a tiny car. It gets almost 50 mpg and it's slow as hell. Don't even think about passing in that thing.

They all get us to the beach though, and we all have fun riding and drinking beers after sessions and talking #@%$#! about each others cars.

LEI, Foil. Who really gives a #@%$#!. The only people that care about what you fly are self conscious people who want to fit in. Get an old kite, get a new kite. Get a foil, get an inflatable. Bottom line, get your ass out there and have fun. If you don't like a foil don't buy them. Make sure to sell them cheap to us though, because we do like them. And then head over to Kiteforum because all your LEI buddies are over there.

A.

snobdr - 20-7-2009 at 09:13 PM

Quote:

For the most part you are just giving your personal preference apart from the gusts in the upper wind range which i completely agree with, i'm not a fan of small flysurfers at all
Bloahs points were
Stability,top end,low end,depower, windrange, Safety, turning speed, and inflation.
only turning speed might be considered personal preference.


Quote:

I am a little sad the way flysurfer seems to be trying to make their kites just turn as fast as they can and make them feel more like inflatables. They should know better than that

Because as Nwsurfwakeskate said foils are more of a niche for kiteboarding. More people prefer how LEIs fly. So why not try to match that? Isnt the idea to sell kites.

How is a Speed 2 revolutionary? Looks the same as most other foils. Slight upgrade from a Speed 1 or modded 1.5. Same basic design, And this is revolutionary? It had a major impact on kiting?
Depower was revolutionary, fifth line safety was revolutionary, Bow kites were revolutionary. These things have totally changed and shaped what kiting is today.

powerzone - 20-7-2009 at 09:59 PM

the idea is NOT to sell kites.... the idea is to have FUN.... if your nose is too high in the air and your attitude is lousy... you'll never experience contentment, peace, and joy of the sport. eventually you'll be able to kite just for the fun of it regardless of the equipment.

i love threads like this ... makes me laugh so hard. good dialogue is priceless.... although please watch your language , this is a family-friendly forum.

below is the article which actually tested all the "revolutionary" kite designs.

http://www.snowkiting.se/pdf/depower+test+kite+mag+julyaugus...

_thephantom_ - 20-7-2009 at 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bloah
Just sold my final foil, and am not regretting...



Quote:
Originally posted by bloahFlysurfer Psycho 4 12 - 1050$ SALE PENDING


...................."

Love the kite, dont really want to sell it, but need money for a tube kite.

...................."




Hmmm the fickleness of love and the deceptions it involves....:rolleyes:

bloah - 21-7-2009 at 05:45 AM

rudeboysaude
the point of this discussion was to show using real world performance arguments to show that lei are better after all. I love foils, but I can't progress on them any futher. I tried LEI's and I landed all the jumps, spins, etc.

_thephantom_
I still love and miss my foils, but I cannot progress on them any futher.

ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT ON WATER PERFORMANCE (NOT EFFICIENCY) IS BETTER FOR LEI'S THEN FOILS (FLYSURFERS MAINLY)

for all those who say go and have fun, or it is a personal preference, go and try some good LEI's. If the wind is above 15 knots, they do exceed almost in everything. Performance wise!

BeamerBob:
I agree speed 2 has an amazing upwind, but not pulse 2 or p4.

BeamerBob - 21-7-2009 at 06:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bloah

BeamerBob:
I agree speed 2 has an amazing upwind, but not pulse 2 or p4.


I have limited (7 months using depower) experience with Peter Lynn Arcs on land only and have never flown a flysurfer. I've been amazed by the upwind ability of my Phantom and that feeling has been echoed by tridude on the water. That was the basis of my upwind question. Others have spoken of high upwind ability of their flysurfers so that's why I asked. I didn't realize at the time that this discussion was primarily between the merits of flysurfers and lei's. I'm watching and listening intently here though. Always the student.

ragden - 21-7-2009 at 06:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bloah
...
the point of this discussion was to show using real world performance arguments to show that lei are better after all.
...


Better for you. Which is kind of the point here. It is a matter of personal preference. I have flown LEIs and Foils. I enjoy flying all of them. For my current learning stage on the water, I prefer LEIs. Doing any land riding, I want my foils. And I cannot wait until I get a chance to try some foils in the water.

PHREERIDER - 21-7-2009 at 06:37 AM

i loved tube kites for all the same reasons until.....i started loosing sessions to leaking/failing bladders and did not want to deal with it EVER ! new stuff, used stuff it will happen , but not to me!

BTW thanks BLOAH for the V10 that Vucker ROCKS! in 30+

glad you got something you like, get comfortable and have some blowout FUN!

it's why we're here folks

Houston AirHead - 21-7-2009 at 06:37 AM

i prefer flying my bed sheet when the winds are gusty

but thats just me:Ange09:

DenisLaMenace - 21-7-2009 at 07:22 AM

I understand you have sold some foils to go along with some LEIs. Both have pros and cons, and I do personnally like some LEIs in small sizes.

But why the hell did you sell your 17m speed1.

LEIs above 14m size are inefficient. They don't have more low end than smaller sizes than can generate more apparent wind. They turn slow too, and are just too heavy in the sky. They can only be useful for some heavy guys in more winds which is not your case.

You live in Toronto, an inland place where you will miss many days kiting because you sold it. Just look at Paul Berube (pbkiteboarding) youtube videos. At 150 pounds, he is quite often out on the 19m even tough he rides LEIs when much windy.

This week I have been out on 4 rides. 1 on the P4 15m, and 3 on the 19m arrow, and I work full time. Without Flysurfer, I would have miss that.

Tuesday early morning. Me and another guy at the beach. I am on the 19m + DOOR, I go upwind like crazy and jump. The other guy on a Turbo Diesel 14m + Glide goes downwind (when not struggling to water start) and did many walk of shame.

Thursday afternoon, same scenario on the 19m. I went to play upwind by almost 1000m from the shore while 2 other riders using cabrinha SB3 12m had no fun at all.

Sunday morning, little ride in the morning on the P4 15m while everyone having fun too. Spot too much crowded: about 30 windsurfers and another 30 kiters. Not so much fun then.

After lunch the wind dropped to below bit 10 knots, it was time to do my show. We are a few more riders having arrows in Quebec so riders now do understand what they are. I had 3 guys wanting to help me launch my kite. Sorry I self launch in light winds. For about an hour I had all the water for my self.

Conclusion::

If I had to have only 1 kite, I would keep my SA2 19m. I would get more days kiting than any other kite.

BUT::

I have a smaller Cabrinha too, and I love it when it's 20knots+

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 07:45 AM

So are we saying light wind riding the foils win and in every other condition LEIs prevail?
Lets not forget that the light wind master the flysurfer SA is 2550-2700 bucks. thats alot of cash to get out on those light wind days. If i want out that bad ill ride a small kite and a surfboard.

BeamerBob - 21-7-2009 at 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
So are we saying light wind riding the foils win and in every other condition LEIs prevail?
Lets not forget that the light wind master the flysurfer SA is 2550-2700 bucks. thats alot of cash to get out on those light wind days. If i want out that bad ill ride a small kite and a surfboard.


Certainly not when it comes to the possibility of leaks, among other comparisons. I'm not sure this is one that can be driven into a corner very convincingly. This mouse keeps running in circles around the room. LEI's prevail for SOME PEOPLE in certain categories. Foil guys don't want anything shoved down their throats either.

The bottom line I guess is to have fun with what you have. Use what works best for you. There isn't a bad or inferior kind of kite, just kites with different attributes. I talk to kiteboarding friends about the benefits of my arcs, but always with the tone that I want to go out with them to learn about the inflatable kites they use and to show them the benefits that the arcs have, not to put them down for the type kites they use.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 08:32 AM

More like LEIs prevail for MOST people in MOST categories.

DenisLaMenace - 21-7-2009 at 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
So are we saying light wind riding the foils win and in every other condition LEIs prevail?


Not at all. All kites may or not be good depending on a lot of factors , conditions, riders experience and style.

Quote:

Lets not forget that the light wind master the flysurfer SA is 2550-2700 bucks. thats alot of cash to get out on those light wind days.


I got my SA2 19m used so less than 2k, but for me it's all worth it. They sure will go cheaper when the speed3 comes out in september. But the Speed1 17m (modded) can still do the job for a fair price.

A brand new cabrinha crossbow 13m 2010 sells for above 2K$us anyway

Quote:

If i want out that bad ill ride a small kite and a surfboard.


Yes but still with a small foil if you a not too heavy, but not all surfboards have great low end. DOOR or race boards are much better in that field.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 08:58 AM

Bloah started this thread with a list why LEI is better. No one seems to agrue any of those points, All i hear is bladders leak and foils are better light wind.
Only the cab 16m is over 2k (2139) so its a good bit less then the 2550 of the SA and an 07 Cab can be had for 500-700.

BeamerBob - 21-7-2009 at 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
Bloah started this thread with a list why LEI is better. No one seems to agrue any of those points, All i hear is bladders leak and foils are better light wind.


That's true if you just ignore or trivialize most of the posts above.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 09:40 AM

hmmmm lets see
Stability...no comments
Top end..... a few agreed LEI better
Low end... i think we all agree on this Foil
Depower... no comments... oh wait link to lame comparison at one speed no kite sizes.
Wind range.... no comments... except saying foils work in light wind
Safety....no comments
Turning speed... one comment that foils are slow turning
Inflation... we all know this answer.. foils

Lot of light wind /upwind performance , some durability


Maybe i have to ready between the lines to understand what u mean BB

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 09:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
Bloah started this thread with a list why LEI is better. No one seems to agrue any of those points, All i hear is bladders leak and foils are better light wind.
Only the cab 16m is over 2k (2139) so its a good bit less then the 2550 of the SA and an 07 Cab can be had for 500-700.


Snobdr....

What's your goal here? I think you're the only guy here trying to push the idea that "LEI's are better overall"

I think if you look at the posts above you'll see that most of the people who have responded fly both Flysurfers AND LEI's. I think I can speak for a lot of people here when I say. We know what LEI's fly like and we still prefer flysurfers for some conditions. NOT ALL CONDITIONS but that's one of the great things about not being sponsored. you can fly whatever you want. mix it up. whatever. you're not locked into one type or the other. So why bother trying to write off one type of kite. for all we know everything will change again as soon as the next model comes out on both sides.

I have heard personally from Armin Harich at Flysurfer that the new speed 3 will NOT sacrifice low end :yes: I can't wait to try one!

Edit:

Snobdr: you must have missed powerzone's post where he posted the link for a scientific analysis of a C-kite, Bow kite and Speed 2.

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
...Only the cab 16m is over 2k (2139) so its a good bit less then the 2550 of the SA and an 07 Cab can be had for 500-700.


umm alright first of all that is like comparing apples and oranges.

MSRP SA vs used 07 Cabrinha price? c'mon man... were smarter then that.

People definitely pay a premium for foils but if you shop around you can usually find one for a better deal then a new SLE. I paid less for my P4 15m then I would have paid for a new Slingshot Rev. Same thing with buying my 10m P4, 12m P2. I'm talking kites that are new condition demo's with full warranty's that have only been flown maybe a half dozen times.

btw I bought my Thruster used 3 months ago for $500 and I will already be taking a big loss on it. Even though it is in the exact same condition.

SA2 19m's go for 1500-1700 on the used market.....SA1.5 17m go for about $750. unfortunately for new kite buyers the Silver arrow kites seem to have the worst resale because of the misconception that they wear out quicker.

OH OH! almost forgot. one of the dirty tricks LEI company's play is showing you a low low price of "kite only" remember flysurfers come ready to fly and the new ones come with an awesome bar that I would say is better then most of the LEI bars I've ran across.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 09:52 AM

Because in general LEI is a better all around kite. they are more versital,and handle more conditions, Ive seen Foils recommended to people when they obviously wernt the right choice. Some here are one sided, all foil, cant see outside the box.
If foils were so good then why try to immitate an LEIs performance? Foil kite have there niche. They work extremely well in some conditions, just not as broad a range as an LEI.

PHREERIDER - 21-7-2009 at 09:54 AM

i read a KITESURF article last night and the guy was using a SYNergy and he stated he was one of the few that liked riding PL. some magazine writer /rider in bali doin a wave thing

any way he said he " like the way the kite just disappeared while riding"

the rasta caught me in the first pic and i was thinking..to look through this flashy uk mag with a S-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-billoion tube kite pics and ads out of the 4-5 issue i have very little is even mentioned about foils but they are in there(P4, NEO, and a stamp size pic of a charger) the tubes totally dominant product .

i totally know the disappearing act with my pl's and could be the same with any decent rig. some rider talent and experience allows for this.

tubes are ultra easy and very safe to use even for the green rider.

but some folks can just detect the "mechanical" flinty feel they produce and prefer a softer feel, not less power, just the rate upon entry into the power band.

my street rod is pure power but my neck has had it! i much prefer my Bentley GT
both very powerful units just the delivery is different.

forum is in an up roar folks everybody jump in ... fun with opinions

domdino - 21-7-2009 at 10:01 AM

FINE!!!! Here are my opinions on these and i'll give my own score :)

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
hmmmm lets see
Stability...no comments


Peter lynns win i'm sorry, i used to fly my 10m venom in 35mph gusty as crap wind and it was very nice. Flysurfers lose flat out for gusty strong winds. Modern LEIs have fantastic stability as well, but this has only really come to be since 2007 IMO.
1 point ARCS
1 point LEIs
0 points Flysurfer


Quote:
Top end..... a few agreed LEI better

Yup, LEIs and ARCS wind, this is the same as gusty wind UNDER say 15mph i would vote for my flysurfer or an arc as they stay up in the air much easier. The problem i have with flysurfers in high winds is the gusts make the kite really flop around quite a lot because it's shape isn't solid and i've had them fall out of the sky a lot, but never in lower wind.

Quote:
Low end... i think we all agree on this Foil

Yup. And they aren't that expensive, since you cant buy them in most shops you never really pay retail price.

Quote:
Depower... no comments... oh wait link to lame comparison at one speed no kite sizes.

The fact is flysurfer have more depower than any other kite out there. When fully depowered they feel a bit crappy apart from the psycho4 which actually gets better when depowered. Out of all the kites i've tried the psycho4 definitely wins for depower by a pretty large margin, however, i don't like the kite itself :)


Quote:
Wind range.... no comments... except saying foils work in light wind
Safety....no comments

Everyone knows the safety on flysurfers is excellent, and the self rescue i think is excellent as well, i just swim to the kite and then grab the two wingtips and it pulls me to shore.
WIND RANGE... i keep going on about the speed2 but i use this thing all the time so to me that means it has the best wind range. I won't even consider getting out my LEIs till 20mph, the most usable windrange for where i live definitely goes to flysurfer. I use them in 5-25mph which is 90% of the wind i get here.

Quote:
Turning speed... one comment that foils are slow turning
Inflation... we all know this answer.. foils

10m psycho4 turned faster than my 10m naish helix in 20mph of wind and about the same as a 13m fuel 2008, that's all i say there as generally i agree, foils are much slower. Whether you think that is a bad thing or not is entirely your own preference...

So adding up...

ARCS: 4 points
LEIS: 4 points
FLYSURFERS: 4 points

Have fun :)

Maven454 - 21-7-2009 at 10:02 AM

Round and round we go, where we stop... HAH, that'd imply that it'll ever stop... :flaming:

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 10:03 AM

Quote:

Snobdr: you must have missed powerzone's post where he posted the link for a scientific analysis of a C-kite, Bow kite and Speed 2.

You mean the lame comparison at one speed, no kite sizes listed? Was a super review...


Quote:

umm alright first of all that is like comparing apples and oranges.
MSRP SA vs used 07 Cabrinha price? c'mon man... were smarter then that.


HMMM.. 09 Cab 16M $2139 09 SA 15M $2550 both 09 both new, isnt that apples to apples?
I just stated what you can get an 07 Cab for.

Never said you were stupid

Bladerunner - 21-7-2009 at 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr

Why do those on this site try to jam foils down your throat?

"Its all the same, just different."


I have only ever felt like one person on this forum was EVER been trying to jam something down my throat.

Your constant negative attidude is so out of place here.

Bloah, Dom, Tridude and a few others opinions are ones I feel I can respect. I have followed them as they tried and gave honest feedback about there experience. These people have enriched this forum . Like a friend. Friends I can and have bought gear from.

Your attidude is what is wrong with LIE's on this forum. Otherwise LEI's are the leader by a long shot !

kiteNH - 21-7-2009 at 10:14 AM

Raspberries are better than strawberries. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and possibly stupid and maybe a liar. But I still like strawberries an awful lot too.

And flying kites is a lot of fun also.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 10:16 AM

Now we are getting somewhere
Thanks Domdino....
On depower My 9m Caution answer, and my Ozone 13M depower totally. well we will say 99% depower. And thats not pulling a safety.
A Cab also depowers totally but the crappy link posted implied that it dosent. Just crashes while still pulling. OK.......

Maven454 - 21-7-2009 at 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kiteNH
Raspberries are better than strawberries. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and possibly stupid and maybe a liar. But I still like strawberries an awful lot too.

And flying kites is a lot of fun also.


HERETIC!!! Not that it's that important, because blueberries are better than both! And kites are important! Not FUN! ...wait, umm... What?!? :smilegrin::P

domdino - 21-7-2009 at 10:24 AM

You guys obviously haven't tried Kiwi!

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 10:25 AM

Blade you just take it as negative..

"Its all the same, just different" is negative hmmmm?

Ive seen foils pushed on new kiteboarders when they are not the best choice. Why?

I have no attitude, You just dont like me.

I just want peoples opinions, on what was put out there. Answer the questions, ya know.


MMMMMMMMMMMM Kiwiiiii..

I could care less if your a foil guy and thats all you will ever ride, more power to you. Ill still ride with ya.
Its all the same right?

Bladerunner - 21-7-2009 at 10:26 AM

I like them ALL

Just not as JAM !!!!!
:bigok:

Bladerunner - 21-7-2009 at 10:29 AM

While we are at it !

Has anyone noticed how ( just like on snow ) . 50% + of the riders in Carl' videos from G.B. are flying inflatos on land :yes:

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 10:43 AM

I was in NY and VT on snow 50/50
Buggy club 90 foil/ 10 LEI
Hatteras 99 LEI
But this adds nothing to the mix
So whats your point Blade?
Do you have anything on topic to add?

domdino - 21-7-2009 at 10:47 AM

Bladerunner is Powerkiteforum's mr. positive :D i think he's been through more kites than most of us...
You do come off a little antagonistic snobdr, probably just your typing tone :)
Simply saying "Because in general LEI is a better all around kite." , "Some here are one sided, all foil, cant see outside the box." will obviously annoy some people, especially as most of the people here have extensively ridden both based on what i've seen them talk about and what i've seen them sell to me and me sell to them :D

funny conversation :D

Bladerunner - 21-7-2009 at 10:51 AM

That other than in the buggy world LEI's are flown by more than 1/2 of the riders .

When I showed up at the Montana Snowkite Rodeo my 1st winter on land in 06 I found out I was almost alone flying Fixed Bridle kites. I also learned why !

Still I had my 1st full on snowkite experience and had a blast with my 3m trainer in 26mph winds.

The Waroos and Instinct kites ruled ! The Frenzies and Phantoms and Speeds all amazed me . I learned a LOT that trip. I woke up to the fact LEI's had arrived on land , now that they could be easily relaunched. That the local land crew could stick with handles for their buggies but I wanted something different.
I also learned that like the founder of the Rodeo, I wanted to ride + fly everything and do everything I can to spread the spark he set in me !

Where is that car I'm waiting for ?

I have been stuck with my Mother right at the wild fire line that is happening in British Columbia. I have been dreading wind for 3 days. Now I am home and am jonesing BAaaaaad !!!!

I'm SURE I can get the Syn filled in this wind :ticking::ticking:

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 11:00 AM

Quote:

most of the people here have extensively ridden both


I want to hear from those people, On the points that Bloah started, and other points about flying a specific kind of kite. Something that will add to the thread.
Not that the people in G.B fly foils, or He said it flys better. Thats not adding to anything. Just pointless.

I want to hear real experences people have had.

I like my kites because of the super depower, I like my kites because they relaunch quickly after eating it. I have used them Kiteboarding, Snowkiting, Kitelandboarding, and even in a buggy. Ive had bladders blow out, ive also fixed them, Ive helped my buds untangle their FS after a failed launch. Ive flown a few foils. ive flown lots of LEIS.
I try to add my experences

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 11:08 AM

alright so people keep mentioning price....

so here's how I see it.

being in the business of producing foils is a bad business to be in when compared to selling LEI's

here's why:

LEI's. most of the design work and patents done with LEI's including Hybrids C-kites and Bows were all done by the same people. those designs are sold to the manufacturers and then they tweak there individual products to perform differently. this keeps there research and development department small and costs down low. LEI's are also WAY cheaper to manufacture so there is a higher profit margin again.

Company's like Flysurfer and PeterLynn end up doing there own research which is very expensive. almost a labor of love you might say. the kites are also more expensive to manufacture 1 because there is more material and 2 because there is more assembly required. in addition peter lynn and flysurfer are both very small company's. Cabrinha is the worlds largest kiteboarding manufacturer. They are so big that a lot of other brands actually have there gear made through Cabrinha's factory's. This gives them what I like to call the Walmart price point advantage simply because there volumes are so much larger they are able to sell at a lower price point.

now to use the walmart analogy again.

would you buy a wallyworld schwinn bike for $350 that will work "okay" in all conditions or would you buy a Specialized for $2000 at your local bike shop?

most people will buy the wallyworld schwinn because it will do enough for them and they aren't serious enough about the sport to justify the larger purchase. but those who want the best will tend to pay the extra dollar for the better rig.

My strategy is buy the 2 year old Specialized that someone paid full price for and never used for the cost of the new wallyworld bike

just my 2 cents.

dylanj423 - 21-7-2009 at 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate

My strategy is buy the 2 year old Specialized that someone paid full price for and never used for the cost of the new wallyworld bike




INDEED ! I have not paid full msrp for any kite. I will this year, but only because I know what I want, and it aint available used.

BTW.... I like foils, i dont care what anybody says. I also like my suzuki hatchback, my eggs over easy, red plum jam, and ever-so-slightly underdone brownies.

But you will never catch me telling you that these things are better than yours, even if thats what i genuinely think.

Too much talking.... too little flying.

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
Quote:

most of the people here have extensively ridden both


I want to hear from those people, On the points that Bloah started, and other points about flying a specific kind of kite. Something that will add to the thread.
Not that the people in G.B fly foils, or He said it flys better. Thats not adding to anything. Just pointless.

I want to hear real experences people have had.

I like my kites because of the super depower, I like my kites because they relaunch quickly after eating it. I have used them Kiteboarding, Snowkiting, Kitelandboarding, and even in a buggy. Ive had bladders blow out, ive also fixed them, Ive helped my buds untangle their FS after a failed launch. Ive flown a few foils. ive flown lots of LEIS.
I try to add my experences


Alright here's a list of what I have flown:

04 Cabrinha Access 12m
04 Slingshot Fuel 17m
04 North Toro 10m
09 Ocean Rodeo Rise 12m
09 Ocean Rodeo Rise 8m
08 Eclipse Thruster 10m
07 Best Waroo 7m
03 Flysurfer Warrior 7m
07 Flysurfer Silverarrow 1.5 17m
08 Flysurfer Pulse 2 12m
09 Flysurfer Psycho 4 10m
09 Flysurfer Psycho 4 15m
08 Flysurfer Speed 2 12m
08 Flysurfer Silver Arrow 2 19m
05 Peterlynn Phantom 12m
08 Peterlynn Synergy 10m

With the Flysurfers. Something I have learned over time is that they CAN fly like crap or they can be the best kite I have ever laid hands on depending on if they are kept in tune or not.

if you aren't going to bother keeping your kite tuned then you are probably better off flying ARC's or LEI's

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 11:21 AM

But dylanj i want to hear why yours is better! Have you had experences with both?

macboy - 21-7-2009 at 11:23 AM

Sold the LEIs because I couldn't self launch them as easily, safely and reliably as my foils. The PL self launch is a bit of a compromise between the two but I'm OK with it since it still lets me do what I could never do alone with an LEI.

I saw relaunch mentioned here but not self launch. AND to be fair, I did see a BOW / SLE flier self launch impressively this past winter in strong winds but ultimately I don't wanna carry a pump around. It's enough that I unhook the lines from the PLs.:lol:

My 2¢ - why I fly what I fly. My take - I could care less what you're flying. Don't judge me by what I'm flying and I bet we can share a cool one afterwards. Who knows....we might even try each other's gear out!

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 11:24 AM

Nw you make a point. Someone said they never had a bridal streTch. But this is what happens when a kite goes out of tune correct.?

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 11:24 AM

btw I should mention I think these threads are great!.....best free entertainment I can get :bouncy:

let the opinions run wild!

Yeah bridles definitely stretch.

especially when a kite is new or after you get yarded really bad.

it seems like they hold a tune for quite awhile after everything has bedded in properly though.

my speed 2 needed the mixer adjusted after having the mixer lines replaced though. other then that things seem to be holding there place well.

most people see the mixer on a kite and thing omg that looks complicated. and yes it is when you compare it to an SLE bridal. I used to be afraid of touching it until I read through a manual and did it once and then it got easier and easier after that. I can now do on the spot mixer tests and adjustments without even really thinking about it.

Bladerunner - 21-7-2009 at 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskateIf u aren't going to bother keeping your kite tuned then you are probably better off flying ARC's or LEI's


This is very true!

For me bridle stretch wasn't as much an issue as being lazy about checking + maintaining all my lines / pulleys.

A part of what I am attracted to in arcs is the simplicity .

dylanj423 - 21-7-2009 at 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
But dylanj i want to hear why yours is better! Have you had experences with both?


flown a couple... dont like them... thanks for asking... :moon:

more than anything i just wanted to make the point that for you to tell me flat out that one is better than the other is snobbish and rude

but... SNOBdr, i wouldnt expect anything less from you.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 11:53 AM

dylanj what didnt you like? what did you fly?

Ive converted a fixed to a depower so know all about mixers. In general theres a bit more upkeep on foils then a LEI. Gives us an idea how intensive tuning i kite is? time involved.

carltb - 21-7-2009 at 12:15 PM

interesting read but i think ill still stick to my arcs.

ps you dont make many friends do you snob.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 12:22 PM

I guess not on here LOL.
Carl you have any experences on LEIs?
Your an arc man, what do u like about them?

acampbell - 21-7-2009 at 12:26 PM

I wonder how the new Peter Lynn Chargers will fall into this mix. They are said to have the turning speed of a C kite or LEI. From Peter Lynn...

"Another group of riders the Charger is targeting are all those riders that prefer a really fast turning speed and great power. The Charger in this respect performs similar to an LEI C-shape and adds features such as the unique Twinskin stability and Auto-zenith as well as a very smooth flying behaviour and comfortable feel while riding. "

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 01:14 PM

Acampbell or carl. Say im ripping along on the water,nicely powered, i pull some shifty move and wipe out. With the auto-zenith how likely am i to get lofted or dragged downwind. Is the kites trip to the zenith slow or does it run right up there?

acampbell - 21-7-2009 at 01:38 PM

In the buggy I am of course not as aggressive as someone flying on the water is going to be, but if I was sining the kite and say, I wiped out on the upstroke and let go of the bar, it would not race to the top enough to loft me and would be largely de-powered anyway. Let a water kiter say what would happen if you wiped out setting up for a kiteloop. Wish AJ was on this thread.

The fastest I've pushed my Synergy 15 is 30-something and I feel I might get a draft under my butt but not really lofted if I let go. I've had the Phantom 18m up to 27 mph and felt the same.

macboy - 21-7-2009 at 01:39 PM

It's pretty slow in my experience but it does depend on the wind and where the kite was and what it was doing (speed, sheeting etc) at the time. I dare say there are occasions that the Autozenith won't kick in - like if it's screaming straight down to the deck when you lose it...but if that's the case then you've got bigger concerns. If you're well powered then you'll likely never need to put an Arc in these "really shouldn't be here" positions in the window.

The main thing it that it doesn't turn itself in the direction it's going, it creeps up the edge, facing into the wind as it goes. I'm sure that's why it doesn't overspeed on it's way.

2 more ¢

carltb - 21-7-2009 at 01:55 PM

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=10208

this might answer your question

burritobandit - 21-7-2009 at 01:58 PM

Carl, I was going to post that video as an example of AutoZenith kicking in but I didn't wanna step on any toes... Glad to see YOU posted it. :thumbup:

acampbell - 21-7-2009 at 01:59 PM

Carl, how was the x-ray?

carltb - 21-7-2009 at 02:03 PM

nothing broken just soft tissue damage. wont stop me kiting though. just hurts like hell when i flex my wrist back.

oh yeah, the kite was on an upwards loop when i was getting dragged.

bloah - 21-7-2009 at 02:08 PM

My problem with foils that I haven't discussed yet:

before I begin, I owned the following ones:

FS Psycho 2 10
HQ Montana 2 7
FS Pulse 10
FS Pulse 2 12
FS Speed 17
FS Psycho 4 12
PL Venom 10

Problem # 1 -Self Launching and Self Landing
are not possible where I fly as the beach has no sand. Since I carry all my gear on a bike, I can't carry any sand bags.
Self Launching P4 in 25 knots scared that #@%$#! out of me. Self landing was nearly impossible with 5 th line as the kite became a one liner 20 meters up in the air. On other hand I landed 12 meter Cabrinha Omega in same 25 knots by myself without a problem. Bottom line, I think it easier to self lunch foil but it is easier to self land an inflatable (you can always hook up a bow kite to a pole, and kite will sit on ground)

Problem # 2
Countless times I had bowties after crashing a kite after wipe outed tricks. Bowtie with FS and PL you are pretty much done. Bowties were in all cases due to waves! It was nice swimming. Never had any invertions on LEI's. EVER! Also relunching a peter lynn in waves lead to numerous bow ties.

Of course LEI's have problems too, leaking bladders and tiring pumping, but after considering the pluses and minuses I cam to conclusion that for WATER use, LEI's are better after all.

If I was rich, I would of still kept all my foils for winter!


REGARDING SILVER ARROW:
Me and my friend compared one to Switchblade 16. We were equipped with 136 board, spleene 59 and a windmeter.
Following were the estimated results from a number of sessions.
Make your own conclusion

Me 150 Lbs
FS Speed 17 & door 59 6-G7 knots, choppy water. Going back and forth barely.
FS SPeed 17 & door 59 8 knots - well powered, upwinding like crazy
Switchblade 16 & door 8 knots - well powered, staying upwind.
FS P4 12 & door 59 9 knots - staying upwind
FS Speed 17 & 136 9-10 knots - going upwind 10 kilometers
Switchblade 16 & 140x42 Airush board 180 pounds friend - going upwind 5 kilometers at same time as I was 10 km out.
FS Speed 17 1.5 Silver arrow. Going downwind in 10 knots! WTF?

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 02:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bloah
REGARDING SILVER ARROW:
Me and my friend compared one to Switchblade 16. We were equipped with 136 board, spleene 59 and a windmeter.
Following were the estimated results from a number of sessions.
Make your own conclusion

Me 150 Lbs
FS Speed 17 & door 59 6-G7 knots, choppy water. Going back and forth barely.
FS SPeed 17 & door 59 8 knots - well powered, upwinding like crazy
Switchblade 16 & door 8 knots - well powered, staying upwind.
FS P4 12 & door 59 9 knots - staying upwind
FS Speed 17 & 136 9-10 knots - going upwind 10 kilometers
Switchblade 16 & 140x42 Airush board 180 pounds friend - going upwind 5 kilometers at same time as I was 10 km out.
FS Speed 17 1.5 Silver arrow. Going downwind in 10 knots! WTF?


interesting....

how was the arrow tuned?

I went through about a half a dozen different mixer/fds/main line length settings before I got my P4's tuned the way I like them.

I'll admit. my P4's flew like crap when I first got them. the 10m would fly backwards with the trim strap pulled half way and the bar pulled all the way in. WTF is right, but I looked at the mixer. shortened the mains and now it flies great.

bloah - 21-7-2009 at 03:24 PM

it was tuned by powerzone, then we made a mixer test 6.2.1 and it still flew like crap. Did the nickwax mode so it doesn't leak air, but still flew like crap. Restored it to original mixer, still flew like crap! By crap I mean low end on 1.5 is worse then on original speed 17. Yes it turns faster, but it doesnt pull. Yes it has more depower, but still the low end was horrible compared to stock :(
Dunno, maybe we did something wrong, but when we even bought originally from powerzone, it didn't had the low end compared to original, although it flew better before

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 03:50 PM

strange....I have never flown a speed 1 before so I haven't experienced the difference you're talking about.

Powerzone is very good at tuning kites and tends to be a perfectionist when it comes to repairs and mods.

I always thought the 1.5 mod was supposed to extend the top end of the Speed1 and make the kite turn faster with the expense of 1 maybe 2 knots of low end. If it is done right you can probably still get moving in the same amount of light wind by working the kite a little more with the gained turning speed. Did you ever try adding line extensions?

I'm not sure what the nickwax mode is you're talking about.

domdino - 21-7-2009 at 04:06 PM

You have too flown a speed 1 christian, i sold you my SA a few years ago!! :)
I personally didn't notice any difference in the bottom end on my 17m sa when john did the 1.5 upgrade, i was happily cruising upwind in 6 knots. However, i think it's very much to do with your light wind technique which i seem have nailed without knowing how or why, i handed my sa215m to a friend on the beach a couple of weeks ago and he could barely stand up let alone go upwind using my board (mako140) in about 9mph wind. He weighed a tiny bit more than me but really not much in it, i took the kite back and i could cruise upwind and pull off jumps no problem.
I think you have to be really light on your feet and having the correct posture is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY important to successful light wind riding.

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 04:11 PM

I thought of another good foil vs LEI analogy.

LEI is to Windows Vista as Foil is to Linux

Sure windows vista is what everyone uses. it has the most support and people who don't know what they are talking about think its great for lack of knowing what else is available. its pretty/shiny advertised everywhere but incredibly inefficient and limited. Windows users may even try linux and get frustrated with it because they don't know how to use it properly. But for the people that put in the time to truely learn how to use it, they will swear by linux as the only way to fully utilize a PC :P

tridude - 21-7-2009 at 04:16 PM

Im very pleased with my 17m SA 1.5.....................my son (170lbs/2 months experience) was out today in easterly 8 to 10 kts, with our 145x48 Crazy Fly allrounder cruising up and down Folly Beach................he said he couldnt stop grinning and had the water all to himself. The depower on the SA is awesome, distinct but nit bar pressure, and very very stable throughout the whole window. It turns slow but hey its a light wind design...............Ive had ir our 2 times in 12 to 15 kts and was in complete control and AMAZEMENT!!

bloah - 21-7-2009 at 04:17 PM

nickwax mod is a solution which u can get at mac, and you pretty much rub it all over your kite so it makes it water proof and doesnt leak water in and air out. After we applied twice, kite weighted a bit more and by touch felt like condom. It flew a bit better, but the bridles must be the problem :(

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 04:25 PM

Sorry to hear that bloah.

sounds like you put in a good effort on that kite. I can understand that sometimes its just best to start clean with something new. It sounds like that's what you're doing with inflatables. hope they work out better for you.

bloah - 21-7-2009 at 04:32 PM

the Silver Arrow was not mine and I had no issues with my speed 17 besides it being very slow. Sold them as LEI's just better at jumping I find, and another thing is that I fly in places where there is no beach and in offshore conditions, and LEI's are better for self rescue.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 04:43 PM

How about this analogy
Foil= bus pulls alot of weight but is slow and cumbersome
LEI= Ferrari quick powerful and handles like a dream

we could do this all day
Why not post why you like what you fly and why you didnt like the other type

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 05:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr

we could do this all day
Why not post why you like what you fly and why you didnt like the other type


haha, I'm pretty sure I already did that. relax man I can tell you're getting stressed out. this is just a fun subject. nothing personal, no hard feelings.

We get light wind here and so you end up seeing lots of big kites and people on doors and surfboards. I feel like riding strapless is what people do when they don't have enough wind to jump. with foils I always have enough wind to jump. my issue is I like jumping more then anything. its why I got into kitesurfing. therefore I fly kites with maximum lift and float. I find foils have that....all the other advantages I listed earlier are just added bonuses.

all big kites fly like busses. try a 20m slingshot machine sometime and you'll know what I'm talking about. that is if you don't have a heart attack trying to pump it first ;-) good luck relaunching one of those things too.

powerzone - 21-7-2009 at 05:07 PM

well after reading thru all this i think you guys have convinced me.....

I've been duped.... all my experiences must be false and flying these air matresses has made me crazy and too blind to see the truth.

thats it, i'm gonna sell all my foils, quit the business, convert myself to all Blimp kites and join the crowd of negativity. i can't wait !

thanks for helping me see the light !

lol.

snobdr - 21-7-2009 at 05:18 PM

Stressed out? Lol

bloah - 21-7-2009 at 05:20 PM

with no offense powerzone, if you are in business of selling kites, you have to fly what you sell, thats what local pbk told me ones. And I completely understand that. That is the only way to make business grow.

Also what negativity? It sounds then whenever someone starts saying things about foils, foil men start calling them pessimists and other names. I used to be like that too. As far as I am concerned foils are great kites, and so are lei. Judging but what is important to me, stability, turning speed, depower, safety, I made a decision to switch to LEI's.

There is no reason in selling your business or saying that you see a light. I understand the sarcasm. But I owe a toyota, and I know a ferrari is better? But do I need a ferrari? No i dont?
So is with LEI's they are better at certain characteristics, which I didn't needed before, so I had foils. Now I need the extra performance so I choose LEI's.

It is a fact, some kites are better in one thing and #@%$#!tier in another.

The purpose of this thread initiation by me was to show that LEI's are better overall for water. No one really challanged that. In sum I believe that performance (Stability, Depower, Turning) wise in medium to strong winds LEI's excell foils.
In low wind I believe that Silver Arrow is still the ultimate kite. Yet, it wins only a couple of knots difference.

Bladerunner - 21-7-2009 at 05:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by powerzone
well after reading thru all this i think you guys have convinced me.....

I've been duped.... all my experiences must be false and flying these air matresses has made me crazy and too blind to see the truth.

thats it, i'm gonna sell all my foils, quit the business, convert myself to all Blimp kites and join the crowd of negativity. i can't wait !

thanks for helping me see the light !

lol.


No need for BIG changes !
Just move over to the " ARC Side " of your product line ! :wee:

But I would keep my SA for low winds ! Today was a bummer. Not enough wind for the 15m Syn but enough to tease me.:megan:

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 05:36 PM

um...

I thought I challenged your statement pretty good...

what i didn't do was say foils are better. Because that is a personal preference and cannot be generalized or made factual like your original statement was claiming.

funny thing about facts.....it is nearly impossible to prove something. More often then not, one can only hope to disprove what has already been done. If he/she does indeed disprove something it is nearly impossible again for that correlation based on a repeatable experiment to develop into a proven fact.

Sorry my engineering background has made me a bit of a wishy washy non-committal douche when it comes to people making claims :lol:

Can you tell I hate statistics?....They are responsible for things like the global warming myth, kites causing plovers to go extinct, drugs on TV that claim to "enhance" certain areas of the body, etc. etc.

DenisLaMenace - 21-7-2009 at 05:43 PM

If any of you have time to loose, you are welcome to read this, but only if you have nothing else to do, and there is no wind outside.

This is the traditional post PMU (Pump Me Up) sends to another popular kitesurf forum whenever the same debate occurs.



Quote:

Inflatables are vastly superior to ram airs. I've summarised the reasons for the superiority of inflatables:

1: Lift to drag ration (L/D)
- Rams have a HUGE drag ("D") coefficient compared to inflatables, making them more inefficient. This is reflected in their poorer jumping ability and inability to fly as close to the window's edge as inflatables. Large rams can pull steadily enough, but will ALWAYS lack the jumping ability of a large, quality inflatables.

2: Inertia
- Because large ram airs contain a much larger mass of air compared to inflatables (within their pockets), their inertia is HUGE. It is very difficult to move this mass of air across the sky to generate sudden power spikes and therefore lift. Apart from poor jumping, the inertia and slow turning makes kiteloops unnecessarily difficult. Large ram air kites contain OVER 11kg of air in their cells vs 2-3 kg for inflatables.

3: Rigidity & Stability
- Semi-rigidity improves consistency, stability, turning, and precision in handling. It also enables these kites to withstand gusty conditions. Kite makers are always looking for ways to make kites more internally rigid, eg by joining the struts firmly to the leading edge, adding fifth lines, and bridles.
- For stability problems in ram airs stemming from lack of internal rigidity, see: http://www.foilzone.com/phpBB2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

4: Turning
- Far from being a hindrance, the tips of inflatable act as rudders, enabling faster, more controlled turns (and therefore larger more controlled power spikes)
- Rigidity facilitates turning. Bar input TWISTS the WHOLE kite, causing a rudder effect at the wing tips to accelerate turns. Lack of internal rigidity means that rams can't twist as aerodynamically as inflatos, meaning their turning and feedback is sloppier and less precise.

5: Foil shape
- Inflatables have a consistent foil shape because they are semi rigid. Rams deform and change their foil shape which causes an inconsistent aerodynamic profile.

6: Luff curve
- Luff curves vary extensively. Inflatables with flat luff curves sit forward in the window whereas inflatables with deeper luff curves sit further back in the window. It is the same principle as sailing: If you want more "bottom" end with a sail, you deepen the luff curve (eg letting out the outhaul on a sailboard). If you want more "high" end, you make the luff curve shallower (eg sheeting in the outhaul on a sailboard). There is a lot of difference amongst luff curves on kites; this determines a lot of handling differences. It's a matter of trying different inflatables until you find one you like.
- The excessive drag and inertia of ram airs causes them to sit further back in the window compared to inflatables. Hence, there is less scope for ram designers to modify the luff curve.
- Because of the semi-rigid structure inherent to inflatables the luff curve is much easier to standardise and maintain. Semi rigidity actually enables variables like the luff curve to be really optimised. Ram airs don't have this capacity.

7: Relaunch
- Ram lovers make a big issue of this. It isn't a big issue. Beginners find relaunching inflatables easy after a few sesssions. Yes, some rams can reverse launch, but so what... a lot of inflatables can reverse launch. Rams can launch directly downwind in the water, but so what... so can a lot of inflatables. Anyway, downwind launches are dangerous for beginners because of the risk of being flung or carted downwind. For intermediates and above, relaunching should not even be considered in the equation because a) they won't be dropping the kite much anyway and b) Relaunching inflatables is EASY. Commonly, ram airs will not relaunch properly because of twisting, bridle tangles, or waterlogging. These aren't such big problems with inflatables.

8: Safety
Inflatables are safer than ram airs because:
a) Downwind launches are bloody SCARY for a beginner
b) Because they lack internal rigidity, rams deform, twist, wineglass, and jellfish in the middle of the power zone etc when they are downwind of obstacles, in rotors, and in VERY gusty conditions. This is VERY dangerous. Some of the most frightening kitemares seen have involved ram users walking along beaches in cross-offshore conditions - their kites have been virtually uncontrollable and have endangered both the rider and other beach users.
c) Wind dropouts and gear failure
--Everyone invariably experience a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. If you are a fair way offshore, you can use the inflatable as a "sail" to get back in. Alternatively you can just use the inflatable structure to support your weight.
--All ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged after 45 minutes - unlaunchable and certainly unable to support your body weight. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569
d) Surf conditions
-- While it is always a gamble if your kite gets caught by a wave, at least you've got a fighting chance if it is an inflatable. If it is a ram air, it's all over.
e) Bridle tangles and failures
-- These occur surprisingly frequently. They can be expensive (US $500 plus) (eg see the thread titled "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding:" phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4612 ) They can be very dangerous; a number of riders have reported how their ram airs caught seaweed in their bridles, causing their kites to wineglass and spin out of control.

9: Bridle tangles
Bridle tangles are disturbingly common with ram airs. Check this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2354115&start=30
In particular, note the statement by "schmoe" that goes: "A bridle tangle on flysurfer can mean that you do not go out... For me I had many lost hours where the wind is cranking because of the bridles. I rather inflate 5 tubes and know that the setup time is exactly 10 minutes, no more no less, than have setup time that is 70% 5 minutes and 30% an hour. And now with one pump, the setup time of a tube is less, so it is not an advantage of the foil anymore."

10 Pre-inflating
- Ram users struggle to pre-inflate their kites in a lot of situations eg cross- offshore conditions. I once witnessed a Flysurfer lover trying to launch at a point break in cross offshore conditions. He had to get a friend (inflatable rider) to grab one tip while he grabbed the other tip and they both ran up and down the narrow strip of beach, trying to pre-inflate - to no avail. He had to pack up and go home while the inflatable riders were able to do drift launches. Without pre-inflation, ram users find it very difficult to drift launch. This skill is often required eg Promontory/headland launches.

11: Resale
- Contrary to the propaganda of ram lovers, ram airs and inflatos have similar lifespans. The major determinant of lifespan is obsolescence. In 2-3 years, whatever you're using now won't be worth much and will have been superseded.

12: Repairs
- Ram air repairs are generally a LOT more expensive. For example, this guy phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4612 required a PARACHUTE repairer to fix his kite, costing well over $1000. It is interesting to note that Flysurfer refused to honor their warranty, even though the kite was less than a year old.

13: Competition
Ram lovers frequently make ridiculous claims about upcoming competitions that they will "dominate." They then go on to get blown out of the water. For example, they said that various kites from Flysurfer (Psycho, Silver Arrow, Warrior, Voodoo, Titan, Insert Name Here..... etc) would dominate the pro kitesurfing circuit. It hasn't happened. No ram riders have ever made it into the top 20 on the PKRA. Ram lovers said ram airs would dominate the Cabo Verde Wave event... They didn't. They said ram airs would dominate the "low-wind" showdown in San Diego - They didn't. The top pro riders ALL ride inflatables because of their superior aerodynamic properties. It's interesting that ALL the world records in hang-time, as well as unofficial records like Eric EcS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s crazy jump, are held by inflatables. Ram airs aren't even on the same page.

14: Land and Snow
Check out this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2355153 Not only are inflatables superior on water (because of better aerodynamic performance, jumping, stability, and safety), they are also superior on snow and land for the same reasons.

15: Light Winds
Ram airs are inferior light wind kites because they:
1 Have excessive drag (bridles, lack of internal rigidity), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio
2 Turn VERY slowly
3 Have incredible inertia. The Speed 2 19 contains over 11kg of air in its pockets, compared to about 3kg in the largest inflatables.
4 Have problems with bridle failure and tangling
5: In wind dropouts, you're much better off with an inflatable. If you choose to go out in light winds, you will occasionally experience full dropouts. No kite, inflato or ram, will stay up in these conditions. It is better to have an inflatable in drop-outs because at least you can support your weight and try to get back to the beach. All ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged and unwieldy after about 45mins and absolutely impossible to water relaunch. Ram airs are just plain dangerous in wind dropouts.
Despite what anybody tells you, you won't really have fun on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over about 8 knots. This is the starting point for BOTH ram airs and inflatables, but because of the reasons I've outlined above, inflatables are vastly superior. And this is just the starting point. You won't really be having fun until it hits about 10 knots on an inflatable OR a ram air.
A variety of kites were tested in light wind conditions in San Diego a few years ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2319439&hilit=ram+airs+crash+in+san+diego . Despite the ridiculous over-hyped claims from Flysurfer reps like Ted Bautista, Flysurfer ram air kites crashed and burned in Kiteboarder Mag's light-wind showdown in San Diego. The overall consensus was that Flysurfer ram air kites are ok in light wind, but they turn VERY SLOWLY. The overall impression was that there are much better inflatables. It's interesting that a lot of the ram air guys who were excited about this showdown were remarkably SILENT afterwards, in particular, Ted Bautista, the U.S. rep for Flysurfer. His alpha-male chest-beating rants in the lead up to this showdown almost defied belief.
For an example of the LIES that ram lovers tell about their kites, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2350141&p=539227#p539227

16: Geeks and Cameraderie
Amongst inflatable riders, there is a certain amount of collegiality. Inflatable riders tend to hang out together and help each other on the beach and on the water. If you fly a ram air, you'll always be a bit on the outside; regarded as a bit weird and not really part of the group. Part of this is because you will always be in a minority on the beach, part of it is because ram airs are so rare that inflatable riders are a scared/unsure of ram airs, and part of it is because, as a group, ram rides ARE a bit weird/nerdy. Anyway, one of the problems with being part of a weird minority on the beach is that it can be very difficult to find people to help launch and land your kite, eg http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topi ... C_ID=51465


Ignore the ram air propaganda. Ignore the lies. Ram airs are aerodynamically inferior to LEIs and nothing can change this.

DenisLaMenace - 21-7-2009 at 05:48 PM

A site than do gear reviews I like much is http://kiteworldmag.com/

they usually are more objective than other mags I feel

these guys mostly ride LEI only but they did review the P4 10m this year

nice quote from a LEI rider

Quote:
FX: If I had to cross the Atlantic with a kite I'd choose this.


read it at http://kiteworldmag.com/2009-kite-tests/flysurfer-psycho-4-1...

bloah - 21-7-2009 at 05:50 PM

Quote:
Upwind ability (Pulse 2 and P4 seem to be on pair with an SLE for upwind but get on a Speed 2 and you'll be finding yourself jumping and riding toeside to keep from getting too far upwind of the pack)

Hangtime (Pulse 2 and P4 both act a lot like SLE's in this catagory but I have found they sit at zenith better when you're hanging where as SLE's have to be worked back n forth to keep them over your head and keep from dropping you like a rock. Speed 2 feels like a glider when you leave the water. super stable and hangs you up there for awhile :))

Lightwind lift (I can start jumping earlier and bigger then other riders on equivalently sized LEI's)

Lightwind/windshadowed relaunch (Flysurfers can relaunch in lighter conditions then any LEI I've seen on the market)

Durability

No pumping (no big deal on small kites but try pumping a 17m sometime. that's a work out!)

Pack smaller (most of the beaches I ride at require a bit of a walk to get to. its nice to be able to carry 2 kites in one bag and not worry about my pump breaking or getting lost. Also this is great for traveling with a golf bag)

Versatility (water,snow,land)


nwsurfwakeskate

What I said is that LEI's are better in medium to high winds and that they are better after all in those winds for water use.

You agreed with me on nuking winds that you need an LEI:

Now to your above commens.

Hangtime: true that speed has an amazing hangtime, but so does many of LEI kites, To name a few: Crossbow and Rhino 07
of course the bigger the kite, the more hang time you have. Hangtime can be good in both kites, so lets leave it out of the picture.

Lightwind lift: I agree that in low wind foils excel, but I am talking about medium to high wind.

Lightwind/windshadowed relaunch: well again, this is out of the discussion, foils are better in low wind.

Durability: well, while it has nothing to do with performance (turning, depower, stability). Foils are no better then LEI's. Foils have bridle problems, and LEI's have bladder problems. Both need maintance. So again durability out of discussion.

No pumping: again nothing to do with flying characteristics. Nevertheless, Sometimes I would prefer to pump then to run ten times trying to inflate the kite when the wind is doming.

Pack smaller: true and I love that about foils. again nothing to do with flying characteristics.

Versatility: true, but again nothing to do with performance. Although You can use LEI's in snow and land aswell, only inconvinience is to pump.

so nwsurfwakeskate you haven't really challenged any of the flying charectiristics I described originally. Turning, Depower, Stability. This is why I say that no one challanged that in flight performance of LEI's in decent wind is better then foils.

Again foils are great kites, all I am saying that if you want to progress into more tricks and jumps I honestly believe that LEI's are better after all.

Cheers

Yuri

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-7-2009 at 07:40 PM

With regards to powerzone,

I would say He chose to sell the kites that he enjoyed most. I'm sure he could easily start selling SLE's if he felt the desire to do so.

:yawn:

I'm starting to lose interest in this debate.


I would say the following is my opinion that I "challenge" you with.

Speed 2 has the best hang time in all conditions.
Speed 2 has best upwind in all conditions.
Psycho 4 has equal if not better turning speed then an SLE in all conditions
Any Foil will generate more power in the turns then any SLE
Any Foil will have smoother power delivery then an SLE
Any PeterLynn Arc is better at handling surging or lulling winds then an SLE.
All SLE's have on/off power which means you can switch it off when a gust hits. theoretically making it better for handling gusts then a flysurfer as long as you sheet the bar like a ninja:ninja:.
Any kite can invert, yard you or fall out of the sky without warning if the wind decides to make that happen.

I wil say SLE's have the best assisted launch and landing and the easiest relaunch granted you're not in light winds. I count secured chicken loop self launching and landing as assisted.

SLE's are cheaper

SLE's are cooler

SLE's are more popular

fast turning does make it easier to get higher at the cost of a more tricky landing less forgiving ride less float and less low end.

speed 2 has 9:1 depower. that is higher then any other kite on the market.

do NOT leave hangtime out of the picture. you quickly disregard that and I'm not really sure why. when I refer to hang time I refer to it regardless of kite size. 12m vs 12m or 12m vs whatever the equivalent LEI is in terms of wind range.

This is my last post on this thread.

bigsteve - 21-7-2009 at 07:53 PM

I hate my kites. They are crap. They always make me jump so big and float so far. They've ruined grabs for me. I get bored just sitting there holding my tweaked out indy. Now I have to grab all variations of the board on one jump, then what am I to do. I've just used up all my tricks on one jump. Stupid flysurfer, why wouldnt they make their kites crappy and less efficient, now I am forced to progress learn new things cus the norm got normal. Ooo, and it REALLY ticks me off when the red devil flies and rides up wind before anyone else on the beach. Do you know how lonely I get out there? Seriously, its so quiet and calm on that flat calm water all by myself, sooo spooky. Not to mention i broke a finger on a flysurfer!

Thats it. im out. expect to see my gear up for sale. I can't be apart of this group within the group, that pack of guys that seems to be shouting louder and jumping higher.

Ima get me one of those sigma kites cus the leading edge looks cool! Anyone know where I can get a deal on a pump? Powerzone, you carry those right
?

tridude - 21-7-2009 at 07:59 PM

unpack, launch, land, packout---Flysurfer/Lynns (no kite monkeys required)
gusty conditions--ARC
low winds--big Silverarrows/Speed 2s/Speeds
durability--FSer/Lynns
depower--FSer
ease of board starts--Lynns
resale value--FSer
camn make it thru at least one season--FSer/Lynns
turn speed--of course SLE BUT your flying an 11 or 12 while Im on a 15 (duh)
safety system-FSer/Lynns

thats 9 out of 10 for foils

tridude - 21-7-2009 at 08:01 PM

have to say for turns, the 13m Venom is fast.........Im looking forward ro flying BBobs 12m Syn

snobdr - 22-7-2009 at 05:23 AM

Packing unpacking foil wins
gusty winds LEI are almost on par with a lynn but handle lulls way better
durability is about the same, bladders that leak , bridals that stretch, and there seems to be much more to tuning a foil and getting to fly right, and some dont even fly right when they are brand new? Just spent all that money and it dont fly right?
Depower most new bow/sle kites depower 100%
Most of my kites are on their second or third season. My wife slammed one kite down on a frozen lake and split the kite right down the middle, sewed it back together and it finished the winter and is halfway through the summer and no bladder problems.
Turn speed your on a 15 and im on a 12? Enuff said there.
Foils are trying to match LEI performance that should say it all there.
 Pages:  1    3