Power Kite Forum

PL Arcs vs Flysurfers?

f0rgiv3n - 11-8-2009 at 01:24 PM

I know this is against all D'arc side rules but i'm beginning to look and see if there is a better kite to handle the fickle idaho winds.... I'm actually wondering about the Flysurfer outlaw specifically but also curious about the pulses... how do they handle in the lower wind range? Anyone with outlaws(or pulses) have Arc experience as well? Just curious how the two compare with stability, etc...

I tend to lean towards "it's more expensive? oh it MUST be better!" idea, which isn't always true. That's why i'm truly curious about how the two compare.

ragden - 11-8-2009 at 01:34 PM

I have two Outlaws, and friends with Arcs, but I have not had much time to fly them. Been meaning to give them a shot, just not something I have done yet...

However, if you are looking for low wind performance, I would lean more towards the Speeds just because of the sheer grunt power they posess. I love to fly my 12m Outlaw in 10-15 mph winds, and its great on land in those winds, but if it drops under 10mph, it can be a real pain to get off the ground. Now, if you had it made out of Silver Arrow fabric, might be a different story... I'd still lean towards the Speeds though... That is their strongest feature...

f0rgiv3n - 11-8-2009 at 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ragden
I'd still lean towards the Speeds though... That is their strongest feature...


Yeah, i'd look into the speeds if I didn't have to live in a house and could just live right out of my car. At that price it's a house or an SA... I could use the SA as shelter right? ehh... on the otherhand the wife wouldn't appreciate that. :moon:

BeamerBob - 11-8-2009 at 01:48 PM

Flysurfers really suck.... Just kidding. :embarrased: This thread was started without any inflammatory position so we might be able to actually talk about strengths and weaknesses here without ruffling feathers. I've been talking to tridude about this very subject but I still have more questions than answers. The handful of guys that know both type kites will help us assimilate all the facts. I love quality friendly threads like this btw. Lots of us are going to learn something.

nwsurfwakeskate - 11-8-2009 at 01:52 PM

there's a very nice 8m Speed 2 up on ebay right now. the seller is a PKF member. that'd make an excellent kite for either low winds or smooth winds.

flysurfers turn gusts into power so if you have sharp abrupt gusts at the site you are thinking of... those gusts will feel painful on a flysurfer where as an arc will just blob around and soak them up instead. I guess sometimes there is such a thing as TOO efficient :P

DenisLaMenace - 11-8-2009 at 02:15 PM

look what you need.

do you need to get on water, then the Outlaw is for a great price an awesome kite. I had a demo 10m with me last winter, and I will for sure try to get some next winter

ease of use, turn fast, nice jumping

IMO the outlaw has a bit better low end than the Pulse2 but they are practically the same kite.

nwsurfwakeskate - 11-8-2009 at 02:21 PM

Denis,

I'm not sure if I'm hearing you correctly? are you suggesting the outlaw as a good water kite?

f0rgiv3n - 11-8-2009 at 03:00 PM

So gusts aren't handled very well by the flysurfers is what i've heard in the past as well. But what about lulls? Or holes in the window?

nwsurfwakeskate - 11-8-2009 at 03:25 PM

arrow's do really well with lulls...they tend to just float through them.

all the other flysurfers I've ever flown would float for a second maybe 2 before they do one of the following collapse/invert/fall backwards

thats assuming were talking about lulls so light the kite is no longer flying.

I've always liked flysurfers for there lightwind lowend/hangtime/vert/light bar pressure/easy relaunch/fast setup/minimal preinflation

when I say light bar pressure I should mention its adjustable so you can have so light you can fly the kite on 2 fingers all the way up to having medium pressure so you can feel the kite even when you're not watching it.

FloRider - 11-8-2009 at 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DenisLaMenace

IMO the outlaw has a bit better low end than the Pulse2 but they are practically the same kite.


You might be confusing the outlaw with another kite. The real difference is the Outlaw is an open cell kite, it works for land and snow but not water.

domdino - 11-8-2009 at 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by live2hover
Quote:
Originally posted by DenisLaMenace

IMO the outlaw has a bit better low end than the Pulse2 but they are practically the same kite.


You might be confusing the outlaw with another kite. The real difference is the Outlaw is an open cell kite, it works for land and snow but not water.


Actually DenisLaMenace is right, the outlaw is almost identical in everyway to the pulse with the exception that it is open celled... Very similar feel to them.

FloRider - 11-8-2009 at 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by domdino

Actually DenisLaMenace is right, the outlaw is almost identical in everyway to the pulse with the exception that it is open celled... Very similar feel to them.


Thanks, you may be right. I was commenting more on this statement I guess.

Quote:
Originally posted by DenisLaMenace
do you need to get on water, then the Outlaw is for a great price an awesome kite. I had a demo 10m with me last winter, and I will for sure try to get some next winter


I've never used a flysurfer, but sure would like to own one some day. What I know of flysurfers is through the research I have done while looking to purchase my own.

nwsurfwakeskate - 11-8-2009 at 04:19 PM

outlaw = land specific

pulse 2 = all terrain


same basic shape and line plan. Outlaw is open Cell. Pulse 2 is closed cell with 2 intakes


hope that clears things up

DenisLaMenace - 11-8-2009 at 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate
Denis,

I'm not sure if I'm hearing you correctly? are you suggesting the outlaw as a good water kite?


I just reread my self and sometimes the keyboard plays me tricks

what I meant is if dont need to go to water

:-)

DenisLaMenace - 11-8-2009 at 05:41 PM

Last year I helped the local dealer for a snowkite demo day where we had some outlaws 6m, 10m, and I also let some riders tried the P4 and Pulse2 I had.

some 6-7 riders who were frenzy or Manta riders all felt in love with the outlaw. no exception.

2 of them have then tried the Pulse2 8m and the P4 10m in same conditions. I asked what about.

They really preferred the outlaw. I still don't know why but I think it's because they were not accustomed to closed cell kites.

One of the ozone riders told me the Outlaw was the only cell kite he tried in his life where he had a close feeling to an inflatable: smooth, fluid, stable, powerful and turn fast at same time.

IMO the pulse2 does it too

I kept the outlaw 10m for the rest of the winter, and I had fun with it. The only thing I think of is because of being an open cell kite, it could have a bit less drag and be more efficient. But I am still perplex about it.

Anyway the outlaw is great.

DenisLaMenace - 11-8-2009 at 05:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate
same basic shape and line plan. Outlaw is open Cell. Pulse 2 is closed cell with 2 intakes


I suppose the Pulse 2 10m with 3 intakes that PZ modded must feel good.

kitejumper - 11-8-2009 at 05:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate
there's a very nice 8m Speed 2 up on ebay right now. the seller is a PKF member. that'd make an excellent kite for either low winds or smooth winds.

flysurfers turn gusts into power so if you have sharp abrupt gusts at the site you are thinking of... those gusts will feel painful on a flysurfer where as an arc will just blob around and soak them up instead. I guess sometimes there is such a thing as TOO efficient :P


thats good to know as i'm new to these depowers and i thought a flysurfer would eat up gusts--now that i know they dont i'll watch my winds..... is a pl bomba considered an arc?

edk442 - 11-8-2009 at 06:55 PM

here are some things that I've expeienced:

The FS pulse2 has LONG bridles! much longer than my Frenzy. They say pulse2 has shorter bridles than the pulse1. If that's true, i'd hate to see the bridles on a pulse1. bridle lines is one reason i'll be switching to arcs

comparing packing methods of a closed cell to an open cell, i find packing an open cell much easier

preinflating a closed cell isn't that bad, but if you don't need the kite for water, i'd go with an open cell for faster launches

i found closed cells handled lulls better than open cells, since it has that internal pressure to help keep the shape longer

i found open cells to eat up strong gusts better than closed cells. seems to be the concensus that arcs are gust munchers

imo if you don't need the water capability i'd go with an open cell kite, probably the outlaw over others

flexiblade - 11-8-2009 at 08:22 PM

For kitejumper: yeah, a PL Bomba is an arc.

Just curious - f0rgiv3n are you looking for a low wind engine because the wind conditions in your area are consistently low or are you trying to get out every day no matter what the conditions?

I ask this because I have been there, in the low wind all the time conditions. When all you have is nothing it might be worth getting something that can move you in a bird fart. But be careful on what you spend - in the end cruising at 10 mph in a bug is not worth a $1200 kite, you're better off having someone tow you in a truck for free.

If your thinking of gettting another rather expensive kite to get every bit out of a season that's already pretty good I wouldn't bother - be thankful for what you get and take a rest when the wind abates to a whisper, besides if you're already used to good winds you'll be nothing but frustrated at trying to fly a giant kite in low winds and getting little to nowhere slowly.

Oh -- and I have yet to try the flysurfers but when it blows in these parts you need something that can eat the gusts and the PL's do that job superbly.

edk442 - 11-8-2009 at 09:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flexiblade
be thankful for what you get and take a rest when the wind abates to a whisper, besides if you're already used to good winds you'll be nothing but frustrated at trying to fly a giant kite in low winds and getting little to nowhere slowly


here here! I have two kites, one for riding and one for static jumping for days when the wind isn't enough for riding. anything less or more than what my two kites cover isn't a wind i want to fly in anyways

f0rgiv3n - 11-8-2009 at 10:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flexiblade
For kitejumper: yeah, a PL Bomba is an arc.

Just curious - f0rgiv3n are you looking for a low wind engine because the wind conditions in your area are consistently low or are you trying to get out every day no matter what the conditions?

I ask this because I have been there, in the low wind all the time conditions. When all you have is nothing it might be worth getting something that can move you in a bird fart. But be careful on what you spend - in the end cruising at 10 mph in a bug is not worth a $1200 kite, you're better off having someone tow you in a truck for free.

If your thinking of gettting another rather expensive kite to get every bit out of a season that's already pretty good I wouldn't bother - be thankful for what you get and take a rest when the wind abates to a whisper, besides if you're already used to good winds you'll be nothing but frustrated at trying to fly a giant kite in low winds and getting little to nowhere slowly.

Oh -- and I have yet to try the flysurfers but when it blows in these parts you need something that can eat the gusts and the PL's do that job superbly.


hey flexi,

Wow that was probably some of the best advice i've ever received. You nailed it spot on too. I guess i have been frustrated with the low/crappy winds around here and have been grasping at whatever i can...

Thanks for the information too on the flysurfers and the PLs! It's quite interesting.

macboy - 11-8-2009 at 11:08 PM

Well said Flexiblade. I share the same feelings towards those nuking wind days when sure, I could set up the 1.5 meter but it still would be more hairy than fun so better to just enjoy tinkering in the garage or hanging out at home that day.

(FYI - I bought the 17m P3 for those days when there was wind but not enough to get an arc off the ground - just one step above the gnat fart...about 7-10mph)

BeamerBob - 12-8-2009 at 04:16 AM

I've never really grasped what activities we were trying to power here but I can't say enough about the PL Reactors. I have an 8.3 and it has been my most reached for kite this summer. It needs about 5mph if its steady and that will get you 15 mph or more in the buggy. My next kite will be the 10.8m Reactor II. It only needs about 3-3.5 mph and you are rolling. It is good for 4 times wind speed and you can hold it up to about 7-8 mph. Strops recommended for this big boy.

acampbell - 12-8-2009 at 06:03 AM

True, F0rgiv3n never defined "fickle" or "low wind". From what I've seen on our beach, the Flysurfers will have it over the ARC's, and a big open cell will have it over all (wind 1-7). Now I am talking about slim margins here. My 18m Phantom will fly in 4 and buggy in 5. Kitedog will get his big Flysurfer SA (that's an SA right, Greg?) up and rolling at about the same or maybe 1-2 less. I can put my Reactor 10.8 up and roll in 3-4 and move the bug at 16mph and keep about 10 mph in winds of 2-3, while rolling through the occasional 0-1 lull.

Sure I enjoy a good blow (you know what I mean) but I also enjoy chasing those bird farts that Flexiblade speaks of. It is really gratifying to maintain 15+ mph in 4 mph of wind, using every trick you can to keep it going. It's just as cool to roll by buggy camp and see the streamers on my little wind mast sitting perfectly still.

When I first got the big Reactor, I was skeptical of the value of a $600 kite with a practical usable wind range range of about 6mph (1-7). But if you look at "wind range" as a function of time (much of the summer) as opposed to pure velocity, many will see the value.

Now the Reactor 10.8 is like a phantom limb. I keep reaching for it but is is not there; I keep forgetting that it is on loan.

dylanj423 - 12-8-2009 at 06:47 AM

both flysurfers and arcs are great kites, they just handle differently... if i remember correcly, you do a lot of mountainboarding, right?? probably snowkiting, too...

for all my mountainboarding needs, i pull out an arc... very smooth power delivery, and can be tamed down where a flysurfer cant be... flysurfers are a little more punchy, and more powerful per square meter... i live in texas, so no snowkiting experience here...

flysurfers launch and pack up easier, but there can be bridle hassles, these will diminish on snow.... arcs are a little different to launch, but much more stable than flysurfers.... flysurfers have an easier relaunch....

they are both good kites.... i guess you just need to see which one feels better to you

ragden - 12-8-2009 at 09:45 AM

Best advice I can offer, go fly them and see what you like. :)

f0rgiv3n - 12-8-2009 at 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ragden
Best advice I can offer, go fly them and see what you like. :)


If only i could :D .

Bladerunner - 12-8-2009 at 05:17 PM

I'm very much enjoying my arcxperience !

Trying to compare arcs to my Flysurfers is difficult. So much is different.

There are things about arcs I wish were better. I'm waiting to get a shot at a 19 and 24 but my 15 needs more wind than we often get around here.8 mph is enough to pull a decent buggy ride out of it but not enough for powered riding / jumping. It is frustrating. I have also managed to do more damage to this kite than my Flysurfers. I bent a spar and also got my 1st ever rip ( while flying ). The Spar was my fault , do to poor flying but the way the kite drags on launch is how I think the rip happened? My Flysurfers stood up to my terrible habits well. I think the arc needs just a bit more care.

I think what I like most about arcs so far is the fact that it is a huge kite with a low but very change-abe projected area. My 15 flies and turns like a 7 or 10 Flysurfer but floats better than my 13m PsychoIII did ( because I would blow the redirect ). This has been a huge help with jumps. I found it strange enjoying a 15m kite when others had 2m and tandem buggies but now I feel more safe with the Syn than a twitchy 2m fixed bridle or even my beloved 7m Pulse in high winds!

Try to fly BOTH !!!! Both are good.

Drewculous - 12-8-2009 at 08:17 PM

NOOOOOOO!!!!
Second guessing the D'arc Side?!?!?!?!
*the force trembles*

Phantom graphic > Outlaw graphic

lol!!

IDK... looks like an interesting topic... if you do get a chance to try both, let us know... flysurfers carry a great rep... i dont know if better is the right word, but im sure they're great kites none the less

(Whats the flysurfer side? The Ewok Side? maybe west tatooine si-eede, represent!!... lol sorry, long day.. not all there)

FloRider - 12-8-2009 at 10:58 PM

Drewculous I am your father. Nooooooooooooooooo!

When 900 years old your Flysurfer Outlaw becomes, look as good as a Peter Lynn Phantom, it will not.

nwsurfwakeskate - 13-8-2009 at 09:42 AM

talk to powerzone as well.

he is a dealer for both brands

he rides exclusively flysurfer for water and flysurfer/peterlynn for landboarding

FloRider - 13-8-2009 at 10:02 AM

I just had fix one of my kites, so I know he is a Jedi Master. But what side of the force does Powerzone use?

Are you saying he is a switch hitter? He uses the light side on water and D'arc side on land? Amazing.

nwsurfwakeskate - 13-8-2009 at 10:30 AM

yeah he tends to favor the light side but definitely uses both.

I have a 12m phanny too so I'm technically a switch hitter as well ;)

tridude - 15-8-2009 at 05:55 PM

this will be touchy so dont take this wrong.......with auto zenith the Lynns are awesome for board, buggy, or landboard starts.........the kite flies itself and your learning curve will be on the fastest track. FSer albeit user friendly are not beginner depower foils IMO (at least for me). I say this because my intro to depower was with FSer and in all honesty, I wasnt ready for them. The Lynns gave me confidence and skillz improved fast. My re entry with FSer has been so enjoyable due mainly from my time spent on arcs. I still have two (Arcs) and will probably keep one for land/water use.....both are true quality and a pleasure to fly.......................

flexiblade - 15-8-2009 at 07:58 PM

Just watched a couple of videos that outlined the need for good safety equipment - relevance to this thread is that they are of a PL Synergy and a Flysurfer (I'm sure someone here will know exactly what kind) demonstrating how they can be misused. The Flysurfer clip looks like the pilot had some difficulty relaunching and continued to mess with it when he should have called it in the wind conditions he was attempting to fly in. The PL vid shows that as much as the PL's are gust eaters, they are not perfect. He should have ejected after the first uncontrolled high "pop".

Peter Lynn
http://www.vimeo.com/5726203

Flysurfer
http://www.vimeo.com/3058467

nwsurfwakeskate - 16-8-2009 at 12:31 AM

keeping a little bit of backstall tuned into your sheeting range is useful for those powered flysurfer hot launches.

I never really get yarded anymore when i relaunch now that i have started keeping the bar in right on the limit of backstall to slowly let the kite rise off the water.

its amazing how little power a stalled out Speed 2 has even when its right in the powerzone

Bladerunner - 16-8-2009 at 08:29 AM

I picked up on the backstall method of keeping things calm about the time I got my 7m Pulse. I have been doing pretty much the same with my fixed bridles for a long time.

I think that my 10m Psycho II was too technical a kite for my flying skill when I got it but at the same time I think that my 7m Pulse was a fantastic beginers depower ?

I have had a similar crash to the Flysurfer vid right down to pulling just before a fence like that but on snow. I haven't been lofted like that but somehow think I would prefer it ????

Trying to compare these 2 is constant contradiction in my own mind. One thing is for sure . BOTH are great fun to fly!!!

nwsurfwakeskate - 16-8-2009 at 12:43 PM

haha yeah it is hard to compare the two....

at least we arent trying to talk about inflatables in the same threead :singing:

FloRider - 16-8-2009 at 01:59 PM

What kind of kite was flying in the background? I couldn't quite tell but it looked like a Peter Lynn to me. I it was it sure is Ironic considering the topic being discussed.

I have only used Peter Lynn, but I like what flysurfer has to offer and will buy one someday. I think they are both great brands. I LOVE how user friendly the synergy has been to learn on.

Bladerunner - 16-8-2009 at 06:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by live2hover
I think they are both great brands. I LOVE how user friendly the synergy has been to learn on.


I think I can say the same about my Syn. It has turned my jumps in to the ones I have been striving for.

For me , it was sort of ......... My 13m was slow on the redirect and my 7 was short on float . Now I have it better dialed I'm sure I can go back to Flyurfer and jump a lot better .( It is important to note that I have been a bit wimpy with my jump attempts until lately. )The Syn sort of turns and feels like the 7 and floats like the 13 for me ???????????

PHREERIDER - 16-8-2009 at 07:15 PM

i had an old FS with a depower mod titan , which i know much newer stuff with better handling and range out there.

but a couple of back to back session on PL venom and FS .

after about 20 hours on the FS and a handful of collapses which improved over time . very powerful but a narrow band of performance and the collapse thing just makes for a uneasy feel on the water and brutal on land . very tedious attention was needed to run it, relaunch was easy and quick, very snatchy in and out of sweet spot . when kept in the sweet spot it had ton of power and as you picked up speed felt solid . but that seemed about it. 15-20mph may have been too much timing and input just different from c-kites and PL. different shape of the sweet spot in the FS powerzone. for me this made the edge more vague and smaller. adjusting wasn't gonna happen and jumped back to PL. i would jump at the chance to try a pulse / speed 2.

gusty winds are challenging to begin with and would only consider a PL.
tedious launch but its worth it for that flying comfort

f0rgiv3n - 17-8-2009 at 07:24 PM




Some good Arc fun from over the weekend... i didn't want to open another thread just for this pic so I put it on the first thread i could find with ARC in the title

BeamerBob - 18-8-2009 at 03:33 AM

So its a 15m Phantom and your scorp?

Jolt - 22-9-2009 at 08:51 PM

So what im hearing is that speed 2's and silver arrows are better in the low wind range, but cost an arm and a leg... maybe one of my ribs too.:(

Maven454 - 23-9-2009 at 03:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
So its a 15m Phantom and your scorp?


I hope that's not his Scorp. Since I've got "his" Scorp sitting in my closet.

BeamerBob - 23-9-2009 at 03:37 AM

It looks like a Scorpion in the pic and he had one in his sig when he posted the pic back mid July. What? Someone sold a kite. HERESY!

Maven454 - 23-9-2009 at 03:41 AM

I'll agree though, it does look like a Scorpion in the bottom right.