Power Kite Forum - Kite Killers or no??

Kite Killers or no??

Tonka - 28-8-2009 at 07:07 AM

Looking for the general concensus.....should one fly with kite killers or no?? I'm new to big 4 line foils having only flown 1.2 and 1.5 meter 2 lines...i have aquired a 4.5m and wondering if its a good idea to fly[purchase] a set of killers?

f0rgiv3n - 28-8-2009 at 07:14 AM

Is the sky blue :dunno: .... :lol:

Tonka - 28-8-2009 at 07:19 AM

So i guess the answer is NO because it's low clouds and 30mph winds here....lol

Seriously...i've read pros and cons of both and want opinions [good or bad]

BeamerBob - 28-8-2009 at 07:27 AM

This can be a heated topic, and everyone is committed to their position. I wear them except on the rare docile situation where I KNOW nothing surprising is going to happen. Ironically, this is when the wind is low and I have one of my largest fixed bridles up. Smaller kites with less predictable winds dictate them for me. Gusty winds where a smaller safer kite won't have me powered at all in the lower winds make me get a larger size out which could put me over the edge if the gust is unusually heavy for observed conditions. The kite killers let me have the confidence that my kite won't drift away for hundreds of yards into a roadway or power lines. I don't fly close to these things but close enough that a drifting kite could make it that far. Others say you should be able to fly your way out of problems and either they are much better pilots than I am or don't have conditions as bad as I can get or both. They might not want to be as powered up as I like. So there's one opinion for you.

bigkid - 28-8-2009 at 07:33 AM

YES, use KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s and as you learn and get more educated in kites and especially in the area of "hurt" and "I didn't think it was that windy", you will be appreciative of the fact that you are a member of the "I'm glad I had my KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s on" group. Better safe than sorry. Not only is it better and safer for you, but the other people around and down wind of you.
Just my opinion.

f0rgiv3n - 28-8-2009 at 07:39 AM

I have never ran into a person who was against using them? Maybe i missed the posts. I've seen them used, and have used them many-a-time. You know yourself, and if you plan to take yourself to the limits, and expect crashing every once in awhile (which you should) then you will be using the killers. Without the killers you will be chasing down the kite as it flies downwind, with nothing attached but handles.

Tonka - 28-8-2009 at 08:04 AM

True that....never thought about chasing the kite, not my idea of fun... :lol:

Drewculous - 28-8-2009 at 08:10 AM

just use them... period!

About the time your kite takes off and a few miles away an blankets some poor sap's window and you cause a 52 car pile-up and the world you know ends!... lol sorry too much coffee this morning.. haha run-ons, lol

They are cheap, and they'll save you a lot of headaches... the only time some guys dont use them are in the buggy, or on the board... but even then, something can be rigged up to save your kite in the event of a bail

Tonka - 28-8-2009 at 08:37 AM

The dumb part is i can't find a set for sale here in Ontario, Canada so i can fly on the weekend..... :mad:

f0rgiv3n - 28-8-2009 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tonka
The dumb part is i can't find a set for sale here in Ontario, Canada so i can fly on the weekend..... :mad:

make a set! :wee:

Krohn1999 - 28-8-2009 at 08:59 AM

Imagine this:

You are out flying your kite on the beach enjoying the day with your kite killers on. Your doing loops and really getting into it You loop the kite don't get it all the way around and it hits the ground........right in front of someone in a buggy doing about 35mph. your kite gets snagged on the buggy he tries to stop but is having a little problem because your kite is all over him. now comes the important part. If you don't have kite killers on you let go of the kite, or better said the handles get torn out of your hands. you both yell at each other about whos fault it is, and the you buy a new kite.

Or

You have kit killers on and start to realize that you are about to go for a ride. The lines get tight your wrists start to get pulled out of thier sockets and you do a superman (this of course happens in about 1/10 of a second)
If your like the guy that I saw this happen to, the ambulance comes they pack your very swollen wrists in ice and rush you off to the next hospital and you don't even get to yell at the other guy about whos fault it was.
IMO you should never attach yourself to a kite without a proper safetly that can be released with one hand in a very short time.
I know if this guy had been wearing a harness he probably would have also not had time to pull the safety but I'll take a yank from a harness over a yank on my wrists anytime.

Drewculous - 28-8-2009 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999
Imagine this:
etc...

That is so small of a chance... my kite killers get used about once a week... you have control over where your kite goes (for the most part)

You dont have control over a nasty gust... id rather be able to dump the power of my kite in an instant... To me it just seems very wreckless not to wear killers...

Scudley - 28-8-2009 at 09:51 AM

Nobody in Vancouver BC uses kitekillers. They are not a safety device for you or bystanders. They are a device to retain your kite if you let go of the handles. If you think you might not be able hang on to your kite, do not launch it. Set up a smaller kite or say "I'll wait for things to calm down a bit."
People say they give them confidence to fly larger kites. Shots of tequila give me more confidence, does this make them a safety device?
I used to love 'em, then I learned the ways kite killers are dangerous.
S

indigo_wolf - 28-8-2009 at 09:58 AM

>>I used to love 'em, then I learned the ways kite killers are dangerous.

Please elaborate or were you referring to a false sense of security?

ATB,
Sam

revpaul - 28-8-2009 at 10:05 AM

how does the thought of watching your kite flying/floating/rolling/drifting towards/across/onto/over a roadway make you feel?
how about snagging a barbwire fence or tree or house or powerline or telephone pole or soccer/football goal or whatever?
how about having the handles torn from your hand in unexpected gust and smashing into someones teeth at about 80-90 mp/h?
i've seen most of these things happen or nearly happen.
i started wearing them after watching my handles leave my hands (i held on as long as i could trying to 'save it' so they were super loaded) like bullets and covering quite a distance. lucky no-one was on target path.
i'm sure there can be occasions where KKs may be little more than a PIA but i'm sure the ratio is heavily in favor of wearing KKs especially when new to the sport.
like others have said, if really calm, and when i'm flying solo, i may not fret if i pull a kite out that doesn't have them already attached.
if others are around i prefer they wear KKs so i don't eat their handles or try on their kite's lines for fit.
*whenever i do not wear them i always have a "hope i don't snag(have to fix or replace) a kite today. not fully concentrating on task at hand
@#$t happens, i'v seen it.

i 'was' a crotch-rocketeer a time ago. i started with some good gear but always had a voice in head playing "hope i don't lay down here and leave a pound or two of skin with it".
i got some one piece race leathers and riding immediately got way more fun and less voices in back of mind.
comes down to your own peace of mind and what it's worth to you.

Drewculous - 28-8-2009 at 10:13 AM

wow i guess there is an argument here lol! I always just thought everyone wore them, always...

I can see both sides i guess... but man... i'd never fly without 'em

Krohn1999 - 28-8-2009 at 10:29 AM

Try just letting go of one handle if you cannot control your kite. It will flag out right away and you only have to get the tangles out if one side.

I believe if you only feel confident wearing Kite Killers you should really think about what you are doing, because in the back of your mind you know it's not right!

Scudley - 28-8-2009 at 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf
>>I used to love 'em, then I learned the ways kite killers are dangerous.

Please elaborate or were you referring to a false sense of security?

ATB,
Sam

It is a very long story but I nearly took a stunt kiter's head off. If I had not been wearing killers my handles would have flown past him harmlessly. Because I had killers on he was trapped in the bite of the line and about ten feet of line sawed at his neck. (For those who think they can turn their buggy fast enough to avoid such an incident remember that at 22 mph you will travel the length of your lines in less than 3 seconds.)
Fortunately, for me and every other Vancouver powerkiter, a bunch of other stunt kiters saw him trying to set up the "accident" and told him to quit being stupid.
Revpaul's points are almost all about your kite being saved. Flying handles are a bit of a problem, but the slow down pretty fast. They are way more of a problem if you have a snatch block and Witchard shackle attached.
Getting hit by a lose foil might scare you, but they are unlikely to scar you.
I suggest that new kiters tend to think they are a good idea. Long time kiters tend to think they are a very bad idea.
There are times when kite killers do not depower your kite. To be attached to an uncontrolled kite by your wrists is not fun. Somewhere on youtube there is a video demonstrating this point.
A video demonstrating why not to loop straps around your wrists.

Tonka save your money.
S

Bladerunner - 28-8-2009 at 11:00 AM

I grew out of mine once I learned how to fly a kite ! :bigok:

Don't let the fact you don't have kite killers stop you. If you have the right location picked out you should have enough space downwind to let go , if you HAVE to.

furbowski - 28-8-2009 at 11:41 AM

location is key.

you need a bit of room downwind, like 50-100m or so at first, more later. also more, maybe much more if there are obstacles down wind, ranging from taller trees to powerlines.

you need to have a lot of room around you that's easy to move around on. people who don't fly are worse than obstacles.

ALSO you need to be aware of everything around you while you're flying. don't focus on the kite too much, and check behind often. If you have really good hearing that helps, mine is cr@p and so i have to use my eyes.

with those two things you won't need them

it is true they can give beginners confidence in the beginning, and that some continue to use them, but the bigger the forces and speeds involved the riskier it is to be connected to the kite.

the scenarios above which invoke the more risk with kite killers involve buggies, for static flying they are more useful.

I would say get them, try them, judge for yourself. you should be able to make them easily. that way by the time you get your skills up to where KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be a liablity, you'll be able to make your own decision.

revpaul - 28-8-2009 at 12:12 PM

It's possible that I have outgrown KKs. I now have plenty of kites to cover any wind range and haven't let go of a kite in a long, long time. I had only let go two or three times anyhow. I just feel weird initially as I unroll a kite that doesn't have them attached. Like I left the house with no pants on. I feel as though I might as well put KKs on to kill one less distraction.
So I guess I really do not have a side on this issue. Sorry:wee:

kind'a like training wheel issue i guess :spin:

i'm old and still have them on all of my bikes
Paul

Drewculous - 28-8-2009 at 12:44 PM

i was actually comparing this discussion to seatbelts in my head over lunch... lol

Those videos are interesting... both were doing something stupid anyway... the girl: too high of winds, too big of kite, and she looked like she had no clue what was going on ... killers or not, that situation had a bad ending anyway (lol see Peter lynn's blog posted at buggy beach! haha sorry)

The guy in the creek, same deal, too many bad factors going for him... too much power, and lots of things downwind from him... a creek, a bridge, a headache... and in the end he was attatched to the 'fly' lines, and not brake lines... and yes that is very stupid...it was kinda funny tho

If you are flying in the right/reccommended conditions, a kite, solely being flown on the brake lines... ie killed... doesnot produce enough pull to take you out... ive dumped my twister in winds 10mph over the rated range, and have had no problems getting it down safetly and not painfully, only being connected by the wrists...

That is your kite's only safety, why not use it? Same deal as seatbelts, they may cause the occasional incident... but for me the benefit outweighs the cons.... I've had zero instances where my killers would have hurt me, or anyone around me... tons of times, where if i lost the kite, many people would be affected... and to top it off, i'd rather suffer thru a wrist injury than cause a wreck downwind, put my kite in power lines, or affect anyone but me and give this sport a bad name around here...

f0rgiv3n - 28-8-2009 at 01:12 PM

Adding above... plus the one with the girl she was only wearing one killer, and obviously not far enough up the line for only one killer. Either two killers close to you or one killer far enough up the line to flag out the kite.

Those videos don't portray how kite killers fail, they portray how people fail at kite killers.

Tonka - 28-8-2009 at 01:16 PM

Ok I get the picture...maybe it might be safer to use them when flying a new kite or in high traffic areas. In an open field with no obstructions one could do without.

Someone mentioned making a set..what would be the simplest way to do it. Just want to be safe until I know how this kite behaves...I will be flying it in the proper areas and wind conditions but things can happen and I really like my life the way it is....lol

furbowski - 28-8-2009 at 01:26 PM

something strong and comfortable to go around your wrists. a bit of padding is good, but not too much.

then bungee to the brake lines a couple inches up from the handle. but not too floppy a bungee. you can use cord. don't use too much, just enough so you have full ruange of movement.

when you deploy, the handles will pop out of your hands, the more powered you are the harder the pop. there's a tiny bit of stretch in the lines and it releases very quickly.

you can get a decent yank on your arms, which why the padding is good. the killers go around the knuckly bit at your wrists, it's not the best place to take a hard sharp compression load, one of the reasons KK are not good for all occasions.

with 4.5 you should be safeas you deploy, unless you're really insane about the winds.

search for KK threads, you might have to make sure to go back a while, there are a couple threads back there with detailed instructions on where to place the KKs on the brakes, which is critical.

you need to set-up and deploy them a couple times, and possibly fine-tune them, but do deploy them a couple times until you're comfy with them and confident that they will work for you when used "in anger".

revpaul - 28-8-2009 at 01:38 PM

Yes, I agree. my opinon of KKs is mostly in favor of possibly saving a kite from damage.
i have only one decently sized area so:
i buggy in gusty/nasty/inland/gusty/gusty/gusty/nasty/ever changing direction winds.
i buggy too close to soccer/football/rugby goalposts/bleachers/grandstands/trees/houses/trees and football practice apparatus.
probably would be prudent not to buggy at all for me here but that isn't going to happen.
i did not use them at the start. it took a near miss incident to make me start using KKs. maybe it'll take something along the same lines to stop using them.

Paul

Krohn1999 - 28-8-2009 at 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by revpaul
i buggy in gusty/nasty/inland/gusty/gusty/gusty/nasty/ever changing direction winds.
i buggy too close to soccer/football/rugby goalposts/bleachers/grandstands/trees/houses/trees and football practice apparatus.
probably would be prudent not to buggy at all for me here but that isn't going to happen.
i did not use them at the start. it took a near miss incident to make me start using KKs. maybe it'll take something along the same lines to stop using them.

Paul

Sorry but that is exactly not the time to be using them, that is the time to be flying a kite that you have full control of or be looking for another spot.
Kite killers are not there to make bad conditions good!!

I wonder what it would be like to get yanked out the back of a buggy by my wrists because my kite got a little to close to the goal posts???

revpaul - 28-8-2009 at 03:18 PM

"Sorry but that is exactly not the time to be using them, that is the time to be flying a kite that you have full control of or be looking for another spot."
nothing to be sorry about, you're right but there is no other spot until crops are off so it's get used to it or stay home. wait, i do have an assortment of kites now.
coastal winds are 10 hours drive straight west.
"Kite killers are not there to make bad conditions good!!"
yep, KKs just there to keep money in my pocket. I don't like to $end kite away for repair$ or replace someone else's kite.
"I wonder what it would be like to get yanked out the back of a buggy by my wrists because my kite got a little to close to the goal posts???
i wonder too cuz it hasn't happened yet

miracle?

Drewculous - 28-8-2009 at 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999
I wonder what it would be like to get yanked out the back of a buggy by my wrists because my kite got a little to close to the goal posts???

lol, dude.. you do know killers go on the brake lines? I've never had a killed kite generate enough power to even make me take a step forward...(see above post about killing my twister in high winds) let alone get dragged or pulled out of a buggy?

i can see not wanting to dump a kite on a crowded beach when you are going 30mph... but then again you shouldnt be going 30 down a crowded beach... i can see all these negatives about killers, but if you take out at least one part of stupid out of any scenario.. the killers become way more effective... in every situation ive heard about killers.. someone was doing something they shouldnt...

Bottom line the sport we are in is dangerous... killers or no, we are at the mercy of the wind... and if the wind has it in for me on a given day, i'd take the wrath of the wind, and suffer the pain, over saving my a$$ to jepordize someone elses.... Noob or not, im not going to endanger anyone else, simply because i dont want to "wear my seatbelt."

I sell power tools... and i always smile just a little when a guy comes in, buys an electric grinder... and tells me how worthless the guards are. How they always get in your way. How anyone that uses a grinder more than a day will take the guard off. They cause more problems then they fix. yada yada yada... And as he leaves, he waves at me, and hes a few fingers shy of a full wave.... lousy safety features... lmao!

I use guards, and killers... And i'm really happy i do!

kitejumper - 28-8-2009 at 04:31 PM

beamer bob was right --this is a heated topic--i figured everyone would be in favor of kks.......they have allowed me to let go without worrying about losing my kite and letting go has saved me MANY injuries.....so for me they are a kind of safety device--these stories of people getting hurt--some of them sound so stupid,i mean if youre flying that close to other people and objects,youre asking for an injury---some people have little if any common sense--i prefer to fly slightly overpowered and i havent ever come close to any issues with my kite killers--i suppose they could get caught in the buggy wheels........

Bladerunner - 28-8-2009 at 04:49 PM

One of my major problems with killers is that they are constantly in the way. That or I have looped the kiteand want to flip back but must loop or live with twisted killers.
I think my main motivator in not using them is avoiding the agro.

Am I the only one who finds them a proper pain in the :moon:

furbowski - 28-8-2009 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner

Am I the only one who finds them a proper pain in the :moon:

I do too... but I still find them useful once in a while...

maybe I haven't quite outgrown them yet!! :no:

kitejumper - 28-8-2009 at 05:47 PM

well, at least we can all happily agree to disagree!

DAKITEZ - 28-8-2009 at 06:03 PM

This is why everyone should be flying de-powers ... the most safeties in the sport ;-)

Just thought I would throw some gas on the fire :lol:

Kamikuza - 28-8-2009 at 06:30 PM

I have no problems with letting go of a kite if I'm getting scared ... but I don't like the idea of chasing the bugger downwind, that's why I wear KKs. Had to do it once, nearly gave me a heart attack chasing my Rebble as it gently floating downwind, the distance of 2 football fields - long ways :lol:

And what's more, I think it's irresponsible to NOT wear them or at leash a leash of some kind - who knows where the kite could end up and what trouble it could cause for the public? In the story above, the Reb was heading towards a fairly major road with HT power lines just on the other side :eek: in my defense, that was before I knew such things as leashes or KKs existed ...

I have more problems with KKs when packing & unpacking than I do with them when I'm flying ... although if I put them on too tight they pinch the nerves or blood supply or something and my hands go numb. Apparently I have thick wrists cos they only JUST fit and are difficult to put on one handed

Scudley - 28-8-2009 at 06:43 PM

Anybody notice that depowers have two releases: one to release the powerlines; one to jettison the kite? I wonder why they do that.
For all of you who swear by kite killers, may your change of mind not include hurting someone else.
Good luck.
S
P.S. Kitejumper the Reflex is not designed for the use of killers: they may work, they may not.

speleopower - 28-8-2009 at 07:18 PM

I don't use them. Never have never will. To dangerous.
Here is some kiteflying rules: Don't fly in overpowered conditions, don't fly with highways down wind, don't fly with powerlines downwind, don't fly with people down wind. If you don't have an area that meets those conditions don't fly. :spin:

Pretty simple.
Power kite flying is a very dangerous sport
Guess I am getting to old and set in my ways after nearly 12 years of continous power kite flying with no serious injuries or problems.

Scott

jsp2564 (Medium).jpg - 41kB

Scudley - 28-8-2009 at 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drewculous
i was actually comparing this discussion to seatbelts in my head over lunch... lol

Rather than seat belts in a car I think the analogy is more like tying your wrists to the handlebars of your motorcycle. :wee: Do think this would be a good safety feature?
S

Krohn1999 - 28-8-2009 at 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Originally posted by Drewculous
i was actually comparing this discussion to seatbelts in my head over lunch... lol

Rather than seat belts in a car I think the analogy is more like tying your wrists to the handlebars of your motorcycle. :wee: Do think this would be a good safety feature?
S

well said!! :thumbup:

Krohn1999 - 28-8-2009 at 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drewculous

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999
I wonder what it would be like to get yanked out the back of a buggy by my wrists because my kite got a little to close to the goal posts???

lol, dude.. you do know killers go on the brake lines? I've never had a killed kite generate enough power to even make me take a step forward

I don't know what kind of KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s you use but I have never seen a set with built in brakes for the buggy.

Trust me if you are crusing along in your buggy wearing KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-S any your kite snags a tree or a fence or a GOAL POST. you are in danger of being yanked out by your wrists.

paulcoleman - 29-8-2009 at 02:36 AM

I feel as an impartial beginner I should inject some views here. I can see both sides of the argument, and power kiting is dangerous with or without KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s if done improperly/stupidly. I'm reading this thread as a beginner looking for advice, but all I'm getting from it is there are a group who use them and think its dangerous not to, and a group who don't use them and think its dangerous to use them. Both parties seem to be bordering on the classic arrogance of "I'm right, your wrong, so shut it!". I've seen many arguments, on many forums, or differing subjects (photography, cars etc) end like this, and its less than helpful for those looking for info.

Everyone will have different opinions, but nobody is right or wrong. With regards to KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, I can see the dangers they may cause, and the dangers they may prevent.

So, based on what I've read here's what I intend to do when I pick up my first 4-line foil (most likely the rage 3.5). The field I have found 10 minutes away from my home is very open in the middle of a valley with very clean wind. It has a public right of way along side the low speed local railway lines across the top it. So far on every trip there wind has been blowing away from the path/railway eliminating that as a danger, the only thing down wind are fences mores fields and some trees here and there. So with the only real danger being me losing/damaging my first kite I will wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for peace of mind until I have a bit of experience and confidence flying the kite. If I travel to any other location before my confidence and control skills are up I will have to evaluate the situation and make a sensible decision on whether they should be used, or if I should even fly, depending on the factors at the time.

I will then, in time, make my own decision on whether to use them or not. I will also advise other newbies the same, if you can find a location like the one above where the only danger is losing the kite, then use common sense with the wind speed and KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s to stop the kite getting away. At a cost around £12-15 for a pair, I think any newbie with a big-ish kite should pick a pair up and use them (in the right situation) and make up their own mind on them, then bang them on eBay if they don't like them!

Just my 2p worth, as a viewing newbie. Common sense is the biggest safety feature any kiter can have, anything else is additional. The next biggest thing a newbie can have is sensible and impartial advice from experienced kiters.

So how about for the noobs like me, instead of another argument we simply compile a list of possible ups and downs of using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in different locations/situations.

How about we start with these:

When buggying on a beach with several other buggyers KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be very dangerous.

When static flying in an open field with no others around you KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s will most likely stop your kite blowing away if you loose your grip.

Rant over, hope you are still reading

Paul

BeamerBob - 29-8-2009 at 04:03 AM

I'm not saying the non wearers are wrong but most of the scenarios used to illustrate why not to wear them border on the fringe of absurd. I'm not going to be going 35mph (I've been 34.8 in wide open spaces) with any immovable or live object under my lines. I would feel another buggier doing the same was being extremely reckless. I'm not going to be going fast enough past a soccer goal post that I can't see things going awry enough in advance to not be able to stop the buggy. If I stuck to flying at places where my released kite couldn't land in a road, powerline, or barbed wire fence, I'd have to drive 45 minutes for a quickie flight which means I would just think about kiting instead. Situations allow me to "live on the edge" from time to time and not use them but I feel uncomfortable not having them on.

furbowski - 29-8-2009 at 04:35 AM

all these strong opinions mean the KK issue is getting its best workout ever!

well done...

my 2 cents this time around: yes, it's an individual issue. Going through the pros and cons systematically might be worth doing, if only so people can make better informed decisions for themselves.

I think we would all agree that trying to lay down the law one side or the other would be a bit absurd.

Scudley - 29-8-2009 at 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by paulcoleman

When buggying on a beach with several other buggyers KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be very dangerous.

When static flying in an open field with no others around you KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s will most likely stop your kite blowing away if you loose your grip.

Rant over, hope you are still reading

Paul

I think you summed up what kite killers do very well. They will save a kite but very little else. To my mind that is not a safety feature. About all they will save you from is: losing or damaging your kite and tangled lines.
It really p1sses me off that people present them to newbies as a something that will make you or anyone else safer. I think it is damned irresponsible.
S

Bladerunner - 29-8-2009 at 07:05 AM

I think KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s have a place in the sport. I just don't think it is as black and white as some do.

I think they are O.K. for beginers so they will feel free to let go at 1st. The problem begins when you start to consider them a safety to fly beyond your skill level.

I was taught to be in control ( or re-gain control ) of the kite as my 1st and best option. Almost ALL of the people I look up to in this sport have learned to fly without. I don't think I have had to let go of a kite once a year since I started and not at all in the last couple. ( I am mostly on depower now )

Add to all this the way they get tangled up and are often in the way and I don't miss them.

BeamerBob - 29-8-2009 at 10:59 AM

My angle for hooking a newbie in with kite killers is to "encourage" them to turn loose if they get in trouble so they dont get hurt because they are reluctant to turn loose of the kite you just mentioned cost $600. If they hang on AND don't have the necessary skills to fly out of trouble then they leave skin behind and that isn't necessary. I can't remember the last time I went to kite killers but I guarantee you it was because of gusts that weren't of the level I observed when picking my kite out of the bag. Maybe their best benefit IS to save the kite if all else fails and you turn loose/get the handles ripped from your fingers. I've never felt endangered by having them on though and can't see myself getting into any of the scenarios mentioned against wearing them. This discussion has made me more likely to allow myself to fly without them if conditions allow though.

Krohn1999 - 29-8-2009 at 03:58 PM

I think it really interessting that no one comments on my idea!! Just let one handle go and the problem is over!!! I guess there is nothing to say against it!! COOL Krohn1999 had a good Idea!!!! this is the way I teach here, If you have a problem let one go. and normally after 1 hour my students are wearing a harness anyway and then there is no need to think about KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.

I would like to change the name of them from"Kite Killers" to "kiter killers"

shehatesmyhobbies - 29-8-2009 at 04:24 PM

krohn, your idea would work in theory, but there are still the times like beamer said when the kite can plain just get ripped from your hands. Mother nature has her moments, and when she does I hope I have my kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s on!

This argument will go on till the end of time. So for now we all just have to accept that some like them, some do not.

Jack1988 - 29-8-2009 at 08:17 PM

if its a safe wind, not gusty and chilled then im sure that you could fly without but if ianything else.. strap em up, even if not for your own safetey lol, it stops the kite flying away lol, i always wear killers, common sense.

When i started flying i didnt use or know what killers were lol, im glad i use them now though.

tdmc96 - 29-8-2009 at 09:06 PM

I don't use them either.
I kind of wonder if its demographically the same in certain areas?
I know our group up here at Garry Point don't use them and I havn't seen newbies wearing them either.

Ken(K3)

furbowski - 29-8-2009 at 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999
Just let one handle go and the problem is over!!! I guess there is nothing to say against it!!

I would like to change the name of them from"Kite Killers" to "kiter killers"

you never have something like this happen? kite doesn't flag out but instead powers up around one power line and starts doing a spin that keeps it in the air and pulling...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3_TDZUO2QA

Something similar happened to me once with a 6.5, a power line got sliced and the whole kite started spinning, it came down but slowly and the only thing I could do was dig in my feet and hang on to the other handle. (too many trees downwind, didn't want to let go)

I'm not trying to make the argument come down on one side or the other, but I do associate letting go of one handle with this "death spiral" kite behavior.

just wondering what your take is on this...

:thumbup:

Krohn1999 - 29-8-2009 at 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski
you never have something like this happen? kite doesn't flag out but instead powers up around one power line and starts doing a spin that keeps it in the air and pulling...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3_TDZUO2QA

a death spiral can only happen if you have unequal tension to both sides of the kite. In the video I bet they were using handles with a stroop connecting them and they lost one handle. BUGGY RULE NUMBER (I cant remember the number)
If you don't wear a harness don't have a stroop hanging between your handles!
If you let one side go then you have no tension on one side and the kite will flag out.
If you loose a main line like you said you still have tension on the brake line and then away she spins.

furbowski - 30-8-2009 at 12:34 AM

thanks... that's very clear.

the strop between the handles is the part i didn't get earlier, and possibly what's going on with the video above. it has not happened to me yet. now maybe it won't.:D

and yes that's exactly what happened with the 6.5, it wasn't all that powered, but the wind wasn't really doing its thing well.

I reckon the unequal tension on the handles thing is what's making this bowtie so difficult:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpEwZV1EV1U

(have to wait a bit for it though on this video.)

what do you think?

My ace 8 likes to bowtie more than any other kite I've got. I've never had this kind of trouble with it. but I don't fly it in those winds, either.

I had to let go a handle once while jumping my 6.5, I messed up doing a redirect and got yanked sideways, lost my balance between the handles,
and dropped a handle so I could use my arm to protect my ribs. I have it on video actually :thumbup:

The kite flagged out yes with no pull, I always thought the reason it didn't spiral was because it was close to the edge of the window and pretty much almost stalled out by the time I let go.

but now i think the complete tension on one line and full flag out of the kite also made it work without problems...

I've always felt jumping on handles without kite killers is safest, but when the winds are gusty strong enough to be edgy AND there are trees downwind, then the kitekillers come out. Another location would be safer but my choices are limited here in hong kong.

WIllardTheGrey - 30-8-2009 at 12:49 AM

You can also get a spin if your kite has a cross bridal too keep the other side powered up.

furbowski - 30-8-2009 at 01:04 AM

yeah, that happens with my HQ symphonies, it's how I get my tightest spins out of them.

Kamikuza - 30-8-2009 at 07:14 AM

... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs?

Bladerunner - 30-8-2009 at 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs?

In Vancouver it is pretty much everybody . Not strictly buggy people. Here we teach people to control the kite as their 1st option.

BeamerBob - 30-8-2009 at 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs?

In Vancouver it is pretty much everybody . Not strictly buggy people. Here we teach people to control the kite as their 1st option.

I feel a little talked down to when stuff like that is said. Maybe deservingly so but nevertheless. I take some pride in my kite handling and have been complimented more than once. But you can't control a kite if a rogue gust comes along and rips the handles out of your hands before you knew what happened. I fly my handles in my fingertips to allow longer sessions. Every handgrip sport I've been involved in dictated that you keep light hands instead of a deathgrip. Consequently, an overpowering gust can and has ripped the handles out of my hands without me making a conscious decision to do so.

I toyed with certain disaster yesterday and flew my Blurr without KKs for an hour and a half static. It was manageable winds the whole time so no releases. I was getting car work done and my field was only a half mile away so I hiked over and had a big time with it fiddling with AOA settings.

acampbell - 30-8-2009 at 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs?

Hmmm... I like to buggy and I use KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s since I run in public, shared-use environments. Yeah, I will be the first to say that they are a real pain in the ass. But... .. nevermind.

Kamikuza - 30-8-2009 at 08:46 AM

Quote:

I fly my handles in my fingertips to allow longer sessions.

Ditto. I've had handles ripped out of my hands on a launch, even when I was ready for it. No KK? See Spot run. RUN Spot RU-UUUUUN!
Happens very rarely, but then isn't that what safety gear is for - those rare occasions?

revpaul - 30-8-2009 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
One of my major problems with killers is that they are constantly in the way. That or I have looped the kiteand want to flip back but must loop or live with twisted killers.
I think my main motivator in not using them is avoiding the agro.

Am I the only one who finds them a proper pain in the :moon:

other than simply putting them on/off at the start of session I can't recall why they are a PIA.
Yes,
if i "manage" to "land" the kite in a manner that i can not simply relaunch without walking to kite in order to re-set (walk of shame?) than yes, another dawning and doffing of the KKs is required.
If one is a decent flyer, flying proper kite size in proper condition, one would very rarely ever find him/herself doing the "walk of shame".
So why are KKs a PIA?
Paul

revpaul - 30-8-2009 at 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Originally posted by Drewculous
i was actually comparing this discussion to seatbelts in my head over lunch... lol

Rather than seat belts in a car I think the analogy is more like tying your wrists to the handlebars of your motorcycle. :wee: Do think this would be a good safety feature?
S

a girlfriend of mine explained to me why she went to physio- therapy so often.
(when she was a child) she was in the back of a car which was rear ended hard enough to force the seat to break away from it's mounts. had she been wearing her seat belt she would have likely been killed. the lap belt would have nearly cut her in half as the seat was driven forward.
knowing this i do not advocate to people not to use seat belts. i'd bet if there were not law$ against it many people would choose not to wear them, especially old timers. i'd also bet that many choose not to wear seatbelts contrary to law$.

the motorcycle analogy is just silly.
no KKs i know of are breakproof tethers. KKs break away. I had one break away from me as I stumbled getting into my buggy and the kite looped around hard. I seen one breakaway as it wrapped around buggy axle.

Maven454 - 30-8-2009 at 12:09 PM

And much like seatbelts, one can argue their points forever, but is unlikely to manage to convince everybody. :dunno:

Kamikuza - 30-8-2009 at 04:25 PM

I don't ever wear a helmet.

Scudley - 30-8-2009 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by revpaul

the motorcycle analogy is just silly.

Why? You are strapped to something powerful by your wrists. Kite killers do not restrain you in structure that is engineered to protect its occupants as are seat belts, (so the analogy to seat belts is also silly). They merely secure you to a something that has a great deal of kinetic energy that is going to be dissipated by you body. I think the motorcycle analogy is far more apt than seat belts in a car.
A great deal of thought goes into the design of a car body and the passenger restraint system. Years of statistical evidence was available to prove seat belt efficacy. If you can find any evidence that the same went into kite killers, let us all know.

S

Jack1988 - 30-8-2009 at 05:35 PM

You should wear kks in wind that you are not fully sure that you can keep hold of the kite FACT

On land i fail to see the cons that kks bring.

In a chilled or apparent wind then you dont need them but they are your friend.

If your kite is let go without kks fook kno.. this shizzle aint even worth justyfying, the FACT is.. all noobs must where kks

kitejumper - 30-8-2009 at 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley
Anybody notice that depowers have two releases: one to release the powerlines; one to jettison the kite? I wonder why they do that.
For all of you who swear by kite killers, may your change of mind not include hurting someone else.
Good luck.
S
P.S. Kitejumper the Reflex is not designed for the use of killers: they may work, they may not.

thank you for that info,i'll xperiment and find something that suits my style

kitejumper - 30-8-2009 at 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by paulcoleman
I feel as an impartial beginner I should inject some views here. I can see both sides of the argument, and power kiting is dangerous with or without KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s if done improperly/stupidly. I'm reading this thread as a beginner looking for advice, but all I'm getting from it is there are a group who use them and think its dangerous not to, and a group who don't use them and think its dangerous to use them. Both parties seem to be bordering on the classic arrogance of "I'm right, your wrong, so shut it!". I've seen many arguments, on many forums, or differing subjects (photography, cars etc) end like this, and its less than helpful for those looking for info.

Everyone will have different opinions, but nobody is right or wrong. With regards to KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, I can see the dangers they may cause, and the dangers they may prevent.

So, based on what I've read here's what I intend to do when I pick up my first 4-line foil (most likely the rage 3.5). The field I have found 10 minutes away from my home is very open in the middle of a valley with very clean wind. It has a public right of way along side the low speed local railway lines across the top it. So far on every trip there wind has been blowing away from the path/railway eliminating that as a danger, the only thing down wind are fences mores fields and some trees here and there. So with the only real danger being me losing/damaging my first kite I will wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for peace of mind until I have a bit of experience and confidence flying the kite. If I travel to any other location before my confidence and control skills are up I will have to evaluate the situation and make a sensible decision on whether they should be used, or if I should even fly, depending on the factors at the time.

I will then, in time, make my own decision on whether to use them or not. I will also advise other newbies the same, if you can find a location like the one above where the only danger is losing the kite, then use common sense with the wind speed and KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s to stop the kite getting away. At a cost around £12-15 for a pair, I think any newbie with a big-ish kite should pick a pair up and use them (in the right situation) and make up their own mind on them, then bang them on eBay if they don't like them!

Just my 2p worth, as a viewing newbie. Common sense is the biggest safety feature any kiter can have, anything else is additional. The next biggest thing a newbie can have is sensible and impartial advice from experienced kiters.

So how about for the noobs like me, instead of another argument we simply compile a list of possible ups and downs of using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in different locations/situations.

How about we start with these:

When buggying on a beach with several other buggyers KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be very dangerous.

When static flying in an open field with no others around you KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s will most likely stop your kite blowing away if you loose your grip.

Rant over, hope you are still reading

Paul

interesting points you make--my view on kks is--ive had them work well for me and thats just great--everyone has their own preferences--as you can see--there are many ways to fly power kites--who cares what methods you use as long as your flying safe and having fun--i guess there are always going to be a few purists out there that feel things must be done a certain way

Kamikuza - 30-8-2009 at 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Originally posted by revpaul

the motorcycle analogy is just silly.

They're BOTH silly analogies ...

Seat belts in cars function to arrest your movement within the vehicle in the event of a crash, to prevent Newton's First Law from making you a smear on the windshield or a gear-stick kebab or otherwise biting you in the arse AND keeping you within the protective shell of the cabin.

Anecdotal evidence of "If he/she was wearing a seatbelt, they'd have been killed" are right up there with such fantasies as "If I win the Lotto, I'll buy a Ferrari" - he/she isn't dead so you can't test that claim one way or the other.
99.9% of the time, the seat belts function to save lives and NOT wearing a seatbelt would result in death. Simple.

Being strapped to a motorcycle is just retarded!
Notice how when racers bail, they slide gently across the tarmac and are usually standing up watching as the bike canons down the track into the wall, over the fence and just keeps on going?

I'm sure if the science guys chime in and pick up on the 'kinetic energy' argument, that'd get mashed too - I'd guess that the kE of the kite and rider (or bike and rider) can be considered as separate systems.

As for the KK themselves - what is their function? To flag the kite by taking power out of the power lines, destroying the kites ability to produce power by altering it's profile.
Apples and oranges to the actual mechanics of seat belts and bikes.

Comparing the devices as functions for safety though ... perhaps the seatbelt analogy has merit.

Occasions I could see as being dangerous to be attached to a de-powered kite is when it gets hooked in something else ie. an external source of motivation - passing boat, plane, car etc or is heading for power lines. With due care by the kiter those could be reduced to as close to nil as to be disregarded in reality.

However, the kite getting yanked out of your hands and causing trouble downwind - much higher likelihood.
Next time you're riding, look downwind and imagine what would happen if your kite got lose. Then imagine what would happen if you dumped to KKs and it flagged to the ground.

... if you're anti-KKs, do you fly SLE/LEI without a leash?

Scudley - 30-8-2009 at 07:56 PM

Do you fly SLE or LEI with a leash that does not have an emergency release?
S

Kamikuza - 30-8-2009 at 08:04 PM

Yes but the leash is secured to my harness way more securely than a silly wrist wrap :karate:
And the KKs are PRIMARILY performing the same function as the safety release, not the leash itself.

How many times have you needed to release your leash to complete detach yourself from the kite?

revpaul - 31-8-2009 at 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Originally posted by revpaul

the motorcycle analogy is just silly.

you know of any KKs that are as strong as seatbelts?
so you're 'for' seatbelts?
"A great deal of thought goes into the design of a car body and the passenger restraint system. Years of statistical evidence was available to prove seat belt efficacy. "

i already stated that KKs are not seatbelts. i already agreed to your point that KKs save kites not lives. seatbelts save lives not kites.

funny/strange that so many people procrastinate/refuse to wear seat belts simply because they should or have to (law$).
motorcycle analogy is silly...
you wouldn't really have me believe that a kite, once free of pilot and under the affective contol of KKs, has the same energy of a 400-1000 lb motorcycle that one has just jumped/fell/exited off of? no way dude!
*i am a very good rider of both on/off road motorcycles. I wouldn't be bothered by a set of KKs to bars. It wouldn't be dangerous/helpful/added fun (to me or any other "good" rider). It would simply be a waste of time so I call it silly.
*I would not tether a beginner rider to his/her on/off road motorcycle handlebars. That would be dangerous to do and I call it silly.

i'm sure I do 'not' know more about the making of kites and kite accessories than those who make. so why then do kite makers make KKs if KKs are not nessessary and downright dangerous?
you should really be campaigning against KKs to the kite makers and not me and those who use them.
as i have said I can, and sometimes do, get by without KKs.
it is nice to be free of KKs on those occaisions but i still feel as though i left the house with no pants on when i launch one without a set.
I have seen untethered kites drift far and wide and i have had no negative experiences with KKs therefor I am 'for' KKs. Also, and more importantly, to me, my kites are often used by folks with little/less/no experience. So I like to have KKs on most of the kites to save time playing the "find a set of KKs" game and save me from wearing/running over/repairing an untethered kite. i also choose to lead by example and prefer to not be a "do as i say not as i do" type.
________________________________________________
there is group of people who use KKs and a group that doesn't. both have thier reasons. it is up to the OP to decide which group he/she more closely fits and go from there.
Paul

Kamikuza - 8-9-2009 at 07:37 PM

Plus one more save for KKs ...

Last night after work, when for a bit of a tutu ... not enough wind to keep the kitewing moving (I was trying out riding toeside for the first time and I can control the 'wing easier) so I went for the 4.5 Bullet.
Wind gets real gusty in my little area, especially when it's driven by the passing pressure system - I could see the swirling clouds to the north. Good constant drive though, predictable once you got moving.
Trying to land the kite to stake it and take a break though - bugger wouldn't go down nicely. Kept collapsing halfway down then powering up again. A gust caught me off balance and pulled me forwards ...

If I'd hung on to the kite, it would have pulled me over face first. Yes I was wearing pads and even a helmet :D but it would have hurt and would have been undignified, and you can't control a kite with your nose in the dirt. And if I'd let go, it probably would have blown down the park, up the stop-bank, across the road into the power lines ... maybe

I let go the handles before I totally over-balanced and left the kite to the KKs. Kite dropped to the ground, I recovered my balance then picked the handles up. The kite was only another 3m downwind of where I let go, leashed to me but totally de-powered and under control ... sorta :lol:

when I recovered the handles, the Bullet had bowtied through one set of lines so it was a total mess. I parked it, untangled the lines and kept riding

Would have been a different story if I had just released the kite without KKs ...