Power Kite Forum - ? to those who dislike kite killers

? to those who dislike kite killers

DAKITEZ - 28-8-2009 at 08:42 PM

I didn't want to hijack the other kite killer thread so I started this new one.

I am asking this question of those who do not like to use kite killers. I jokingly commented to fly de-powers for the added safety and Scudley responded with :

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley
Anybody notice that depowers have two releases: one to release the powerlines; one to jettison the kite? I wonder why they do that.

This got me thinking. Would those of you who oppose using kite killers feel better about others using them if there was a second release to release the kite killers from the pilot. Here is a rough example: lets say the pilot is wearing a harness and the kite killers connect to wichard or chicken loop on the harness .... Pilot gets in trouble and lets go of the handles ... kite killers take over. If there is still danger the pilot can pull the chicken loop release or wichard and complete disconnect from the kite. I hope I'm making sense.

What do you all think about this?

Scudley - 28-8-2009 at 09:26 PM

I think that would be better than not being able to release the kite. I hope the shackle stays with the pilot. ( I am not keen on the strop releases that leave the shackle and block attached to the strop adding to the mass of a set of flying handles.)
I still think it is a bad idea for novice kiters to attach themselves to a kite and have the confidence to fly kites they may not be able to control. It is very hard to think as you are doing a superman. These things happen very fast

S

bigkid - 28-8-2009 at 10:00 PM

To be or not to be that is the question.Whether it is safe to be tied to the kite or free.
As long as each person has the right to make their own decision, we will all disagree to some point.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this an extreme sport? As long as we keep pushing the envelope with tricks and stunts and faster speeds we will continue to do things our own way.
I left common sense at home the other day and now I have broken ribs to show for it, stuff happens and will continue to happen, all that aside nobody want to see anyone hurt and if they listen to all the horror stories only the crazy's will fill the skys with kites.

What I'm trying to say is each to their own, and we can take the advice of others or leave it. Only my wife has to suffer with my bad decisions as I groan with agony all night long. I use kite killers from time to time and I use a captive system from time to time. Not all systems are 100% all the time, but thats my decision to make, right?

Krohn1999 - 28-8-2009 at 10:38 PM

I guess I don't understand what you mean. If Im wearing a harness and the handles slip out of my hands Kit killers won't help at all because your main lines are attached to your harness. In order for you to make the KK work the main line has to go slack.

I did see someone toying with the idea to use a KK attached to the release on his snappy(witchard) I went over and talked to him about this and showed him that in order for it to work the KK needs to be so short that he would be in danger of releasing the kite while doing normal flying. or he would have to make it so long thathis arm wouldn't be long enough to release it anyway.

Someone else had a system where a type of KK was attached to the buggy and If you started getting lifted out would release, Problem Kites normally lift you up and out meaning the kite is above you so when the thing released it was getting caught on peoples helmet,.jaw nose, Imagine a snappy ramming into you jaw because the system released.

Scudley - 29-8-2009 at 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
To be or not to be that is the question.Whether it is safe to be tied to the kite or free.
As long as each person has the right to make their own decision, we will all disagree to some point.

What I'm trying to say is each to their own, and we can take the advice of others or leave it. Only my wife has to suffer with my bad decisions as I groan with agony all night long. I use kite killers from time to time and I use a captive system from time to time. Not all systems are 100% all the time, but thats my decision to make, right?

Not quite true as your/my decision (poor judgment?) may result in someone else injuries.
S

bigkid - 29-8-2009 at 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Not quite true as your/my decision (poor judgment?) may result in someone else injuries.
S

Your right, thats my point.
Neither you or I can tell anyone how to do it right, and make sure they do it right so they dont screw up. All we can do is try to educate the ones that want to know and hope the rest of them listen.

DAKITEZ - 29-8-2009 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999
I guess I don't understand what you mean. If Im wearing a harness and the handles slip out of my hands Kit killers won't help at all because your main lines are attached to your harness. In order for you to make the KK work the main line has to go slack.

sorry I was no clearer. I used the harness example as just a place to hook the quick release to. Not saying you were harnessed in to the kite. That is another whole topic on its own.
Another example would be no harness just have the quick release hooked to your belt loop. I know your belt loop probably is not strong enough, but I take the harness out of the equation.
Let me try again maybe even easier to get my point across. Instead of the kite killers being attached to your wrist they attach to a quick release and the quick release attaches to the pilot somehow. Pilot gets in trouble they can let go of the handles and it would act the same as if the kite killers were attached to their wrist. If for some reason the pilot needs to ditch the kite completely then they can pull the quick release.

krumly - 29-8-2009 at 08:23 AM

I usually use a Wichard #2673 shackle attched to the top of my spreader bar as a release for my depower kites (clipped to a Loos continous thimble instead of a chicken loop) or with a block on a strop when flying hooked in with handles. My leash clips to a 1/2 loop TIG welded to the side of the Wichard.

I made a KK adaption that is basically a strop across the brake leaders near the handles with a short bungee leash. The leash is larksheaded to a Ronstan kite pulley. The other end has a typical pin safety at the Wichard. The trick is to have enough length in the strop combined with a stretchy leash (I use polyurethane bungee inside a tubular web, so the web takes the strain at the limit when the bungee is fully stretched). Getting this to a length where it works but there isn't so much hanging down that you can tangle or trip over it is a challenge. Also, in light winds, just the weight of the strop on the brake leaders can pre-brake the kite. If your kite brakes fine with just the length of your handles, you can fasten the 'killer strop' to the handles and that isn't an issue.

Maybe it'll go to the beach this week for some more testing. Still no substitute for having control of your kite...

krumly

Bladerunner - 29-8-2009 at 08:34 AM

This is sort of how my JoJo trainer was set up.

It was a 3 line on a bar. The wrist strap's safety had a simple pin Q.R. . When I used my harness with it I could connect the wrist strap to my spreader beside the hook.

One time I let go. The brakes hit so hard the leash broke :shocked2: If it had been on my wrist I might have been sorry ?

krumly - 29-8-2009 at 08:25 PM

Yeah -

I have several 2004 or 2005 Airush bars that were an excellent buy, and they came with the left rear line wrist leash - old school. That got changed real quick.

krumly

Scudley - 30-8-2009 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
Neither you or I can tell anyone how to do it right, and make sure they do it right so they dont screw up. All we can do is try to educate the ones that want to know and hope the rest of them listen.

Exactly true. People keep telling me killers are a safety device. To my mind this is malarkey as there is no evidence they increase the safety of the pilot or bystanders. Tell people they are a kite retention device and I have no problem with them. I have a real problem with someone telling beginners kite killers will make it safer to fly a bigger kite.
S

BeamerBob - 30-8-2009 at 07:27 PM

Yep, much better that they hold on after losing control because they are afraid to turn loose of the kite out of embarrasment or fear of kite damage/loss. :rolleyes:

It's not that it makes it safer to fly a bigger kite, but safer for them to turn loose rather than "tough it out" if they lose control.

I was flying my old Crossfire 5m once in 5-6 mph winds. My dad decided he wanted some of the peaceful easy feeling I was having. For some reason, I didn't have the kite killers on but I had been flying it 3 feet off the ground all the way across the power zone so I say "Oh well, it is barely staying in the sky at all anyway". He thinks a big gust came along but he just sent it a little lower in the power zone and then couldn't do the Crossfire 2-step fast enough. He got dragged over and skinned up his elbows and bruised his ribs because he was inclined to not lose or tear up my nice kite. He still has a scar on his left elbow. I've never let him fly one of my kites again without kks in place and reassured him that it was fine to let go if he felt overpowered. So yeah, in this case, it is a safety device, but yet for me it would be more accurate to call it a kite retention device. "Kite Killer" is just easier to say.

I can't say my same points any different so I'm over and out on this one.

Kamikuza - 30-8-2009 at 07:28 PM

Scudley - any studies been done to investigate whether they are or aren't? :D
Common sense suggests that if you're over-powered suddenly and can dump the kite's power instantly through the KKs, then that's safer than being dragged downwind out of control ...

Perhaps there's a level of experience that you can arrive at, when you know you whether can ride it out or not and react accordingly. However, training noobs to trust their safety gear and drilling them in the use of it switches the process from conscious decision to reflex.
... where would Kevin Kearney be now if he'd just popped the safety the first time he got yanked?

Drewculous - 2-9-2009 at 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
I can't say my same points any different so I'm over and out on this one.

lol ditto

ripsessionkites - 2-9-2009 at 06:51 AM

i probably said this many times.

I perfer NOT to use KKs because

had to learn without them 10+ years ago, we never had them. i guess someone just came up with the idea and it stuck

i've learned other methods to take down a kite when in trouble that are safe if not safter than relying on a system
- control brake landing
- pulling both brake leaders with one had (from harness)
- flying kite to the extreme outside of the wind window and letting the kite collapse
- a simple running forward
- the aways "let go" it releases all tension and the kite comes into a ball

may i would use KK years ago if they had them. however i see more kitebuggiers without them. on the flip side i do see a lot of them used when static.

rudeboysaude - 2-9-2009 at 07:51 AM

I have to admit I don't have much experience with fixed bridal kites and kite killers, but why couldn't you develop a handle that had a sort of leash like a depower that had a second safety to release the kite.

So the leash would hook to just one of the brake lines that was allowed to slide up the handle when you let go of both handles. A sort of hole in the handle that the line could move through. That leash could be attached to your wrist. Then the kite would flag out attached by only only line and allow you a free hand to hit the wrist leash safety to disconnect from the kite if you landed it onto a car moving down the highway and you're being drug by it.

Maybe I'm not considering some variable, but it seems like it would work in my head at least.

Maven454 - 2-9-2009 at 07:54 AM

PKD kitekillers have a loop on the velcro of the wrist strap that would allow you to easily undo the strap.

lad - 2-9-2009 at 07:58 AM

Rude, this is just what I thought of doing with a single KK, (or my Ozone Access wrist/arm leash), on the sliding brake line of my HQ Ultra Handles.

edit: - Dakitz - maybe a strop on the brakes attached to a quick-release, kite-surfer bungee leash would be the ticket.

USA_Eli_A - 2-9-2009 at 09:52 AM

kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s might put the pilot at risk, but it keeps the PUBLIC SAFE! that's the point.

KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are easy to release, they are for me anyways.

DAKITES if you come up with something sweet please share pics.

awindofchange - 2-9-2009 at 11:49 AM

I have been staying out of this and the other thread because it can be such a heated debate.

I will go ahead and put my neck on the line and say the following:

Kite Killers are indeed safety devices but only when used and set up properly for the right sized kite in the right conditions AND are constructed in a way that they can be removed easily and quickly in an emergency situation.

Now, before everyone jumps onto their keyboard and starts the flaming - I want to clarify a little. I said when setup properly - meaning that when you release the handles the kite killers "Kill" the kite. I am constantly amazed at how many people do not set up their killers properly, by either attaching them close to the handles or attaching them behind the flying lines so that when deployed the killer runs down to the handles. The kite killers must be hooked up on the brake line leaders far enough so that when the handle is released, the kite loses power and collapses. The killer also needs to be attached in a way that it won't move or slide along the leader lines when deployed.

Now - it doesn't matter what type of kite killers or where you attach them if you are flying a kite that is to large for the conditions and you don't have the proper skills to control the kite in those conditions. This is the exact same thing in that using a helmet on a motorcycle is not going to save your life if you are screaming down the freeway over 100 mph doing wheelies and happen to crash! If you put yourself in a dangerous situation, the safety features are not going to be nearly as effective and your chances of getting injured or even killed are greatly increased....period! Kite killers are safety devices - not special magical items that will allow you to fly a super huge kite beyond its recommended wind range or beyond your own abilities. If you take an 8 meter kite out in 25 mph winds, don't expect the kite killers to save your butt! Chances are your gonna get hurt regardless if you use killers or not....and in this case, it would probably be better if you weren't using them cuz your not going to be able to hold the kite down anyways and its going to yank you around like a rag doll.

Personally - I encourage any new pilot to use kite killers. I also explain and strongly encourage that a new pilot does not take a kite out in winds that are beyond the kites rated range...and to be extremely careful if flying the kite in the upper ends of the rated wind range. The reason is that a new pilot does not understand the wind window and also does not have the necessary skills to safely control the kite in all situations. Most new pilots will get the kite launched and then drop the kite directly into the power window and won't be ready for it. If the kite killers are set up properly and the handles get yanked from their hands - or if they are yanked onto their face and the handles POP out of their hands (this is usually what happens) the kite will get killed and 80-90% of all power is released.

As a pilot's skills improve, they will be more aware of the wind window, the power the kites produce and how to control them. A skilled pilot can then decide if they want to use the killers or not. Most of the time I do not use killers. If the winds are screaming 30+ and I am bugging with a small foil (2 meter or smaller) I will usually use killers because if I get nailed by a gust or if something else happens, I can dump the kite easily and quickly without having to then chase the kite down (Ok, maybe I am just lazy that way) but it works.

So, there's my opinion on the subject. As long as everyone takes the responsibility of their actions and flies within their limits and the limits of the kites, we should be able to keep the injuries to a minimum and have less chances of areas being shut down because of liability issues or injuries. We will also be able to maintain a better image of kite flyers and hopefully be more accepted by the general public.

Happy Winds!
Kent

furbowski - 2-9-2009 at 12:33 PM

:thumbup:

-mj- - 2-9-2009 at 01:32 PM

Not much to add to Kent´s post but I thought to share my thoughts.

KK´s are specifically meant for kiteflying WITHOUT hooking yourself into a harness.
Any kite that comes with kite killers (should have) 2 handles WITHOUT a harnessloop.
Looking at kites of the bigger manufacturers you´ll see just that, reason for this is simple, learn to fly your kite first (in light to moderate winds) on handles with the KK´s to ensure (some!) safety.
the second you change handles or place a line between ´em and "hook in" the KK´s lose their functionality.
(sure there are ways around that but these are not as intended by manufacturers (at least not the ones I know of and talk to))
When looking at kites aimed towards intermediate and pro riders you´ll see that in most common cases these kites don´t come with KK´s and are equiped with handles with a harnessloop, pilots who fly these usually have some sort of release on their harness/spreaderbar to jettison the kite when trouble arises.
Personally I don´t care much for KK´s and after the first couple of sessions you should be able to fly without having to use them.
AS Ripsesh said, we learned to fly without the luxury(?)
KK´s are just there to help the beginning kiteflyer out of the trouble he or she is going to encounter along the way, but as all beginners should, begin in easy winds!

RonH - 2-9-2009 at 05:43 PM

Couple of things...

no strop = no need for kite killers (let go of 1 handle)
strop + harness = almost useless kite killers (obe has already happened before you can release)

I think we know why manufactures include them but some people abuse the good intentions of trying to make an extreme sport a little safer.

Education is the answer!

Kamikuza - 2-9-2009 at 06:31 PM

People learned to kitesurf on Wipika flying diapers with wrist leashes way back when ... should we continue to do so cos "Hey I didn't learn to fly with the luxury of bow-kites and full depower systems" ...? Of course not, we adapt and move on and hopefully up

Like Kent said and I guess those of us 'pro-kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- are assuming - they're set up correctly and being used without a strop & harness. Right tool for the job - used correctly and all that.

... I learned to fly without a helmet too :D

revpaul - 2-9-2009 at 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites
i probably said this many times.

I perfer NOT to use KKs because

had to learn without them 10+ years ago, we never had them. i guess someone just came up with the idea and it stuck

i've learned other methods to take down a kite when in trouble that are safe if not safter than relying on a system
- control brake landing
- pulling both brake leaders with one had (from harness)
- flying kite to the extreme outside of the wind window and letting the kite collapse
- a simple running forward
- the aways "let go" it releases all tension and the kite comes into a ball

may i would use KK years ago if they had them. however i see more kitebuggiers without them. on the flip side i do see a lot of them used when static.

- control brake landing
- pulling both brake leaders with one had (from harness)
- flying kite to the extreme outside of the wind window and
letting the kite collapse
- a simple running forward
- the always "let go" it releases all tension and the kite comes into a ball
very good points and all of those techniques are what everyone, noobs especially, should know down pat before asking/learning how to jump and other stuff.

Paul

Scudley - 2-9-2009 at 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by -mj-
Any kite that comes with kite killers (should have) 2 handles WITHOUT a harnessloop.
Looking at kites of the bigger manufacturers you´ll see just that, reason for this is simple, learn to fly your kite first (in light to moderate winds) on handles with the KK´s to ensure (some!) safety.
the second you change handles or place a line between ´em and "hook in" the KK´s lose their functionality.
(sure there are ways around that but these are not as intended by manufacturers (at least not the ones I know of and talk to))
When looking at kites aimed towards intermediate and pro riders you´ll see that in most common cases these kites don´t come with KK´s and are equiped with handles with a harnessloop,

-mj-
It appears much of the confusion that RonH says education is required to remove is the caused by the manufacturers and distributors.
As a distributor of Ozone kites I assume that you know of and talk to them. Their land kite manual, available online at flyozone.com, states that kite killers are mandatory. Ozone Pro Handles are sold with a strop that would require dismantling the leaders to remove. Kite killers are included with them and connot be purchased without killers. There appears to be a discrepancy between Ozone and your company as you say killers should never be used with a strop.
I am sure you can see why I and many others are confused as to correct use of kite killers. I am looking forward to your assistance in clearing up our confusion.
S

I might be wrong about the uselessness of kite killers but at least I am consistent.

stetson05 - 2-9-2009 at 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RonH
Couple of things...

no strop = no need for kite killers (let go of 1 handle)
strop + harness = almost useless kite killers (obe has already happened before you can release)

I think we know why manufactures include them but some people abuse the good intentions of trying to make an extreme sport a little safer.

Education is the answer!

letting go of one handle is safe for you but not the public. My son was hit from over 40 yards away by a flying handle.

Kamikuza - 3-9-2009 at 12:19 AM

+1 what stetson said - boing!

Last time I let go of a kite, it didn't ball up - in fact, it held its shape quite well, as it floated down wind towards the road, powerlines etc.

... getting pretty hard to deny KKs, when used correctly, are a necessary safety item, eh - like a helmet :D

WIllardTheGrey - 3-9-2009 at 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
... getting pretty hard to deny KKs, when used correctly, are a necessary safety item, eh - like a helmet :D

You just like throwing the gas don't ya?:evil:

Kamikuza - 3-9-2009 at 12:41 AM

Throwing the gas on never hurt anyone ... oh wait a minute ...
:D

awindofchange - 3-9-2009 at 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Actually, you can remove the strop off of any Ozone handle without dismantling the handle/leaders. You need to open the loop on the strop on one handle and pass the entire handle through the loop of the strop, its a tight fit but can be done pretty easily. Once one side is off you can simply undo the larks head on the other side and the strop is off. I have done this many times myself for newbies that aren't planning on using a harness. The strop just gets in the way. I have used kite killers with a strop and as long as you release both handles and the killers are hooked up properly, it works fine but if you only release one handle it can be a serious issue.

As far as the mandatory manual...Ozone headquarters is based out of France where they require by law that kite killers are included with all beginner to intermediate kites sold with handles. They also require control bars / lines on all surf and snow kites to be able to hold a certain amount of weight to be acceptable for use. I believe this is the reason that their manual states they are mandatory. Ozone may be best at answering this and what I have heard above is just that...what I have heard over time. Unfortunately I can not back up these statements at this time....I will try to contact Ozone on this in the next bit to see if I can clarify what I have heard.

Either way, they are not mandatory in the U.S. and as far as I know, not in the UK either.

Scudley - 3-9-2009 at 06:15 AM

Kent,
If it is required by law that beginner and intermediate kites come with killers, it is odd that the pro handles come with killers while the standard handles do not. Source for this information is your web site.
To add to my confusion, commercial regulations such as product safety are the responsibility of the European Union not individual nations, see "EU Certification" or "CE Certification". It was done to stop countries from putting up 'artificial' consumer safety regulations that act as trade restrictions. So, if they were mandatory in France, it's mandatory across the EU.
S
now I am even more confused.

Kamikuza - 3-9-2009 at 07:29 AM

Since when do laws make sense?

Scudley - 3-9-2009 at 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
Since when do laws make sense?

Far more rational thought and discussion went into the writing of these laws than went into the design of kite killers.
S

acampbell - 3-9-2009 at 10:56 AM

Like Kent, I've been staying away from this one, but since cooler heads have chimed in within the past few days, I'll risk tripping over a troll...

Kite killers are among the biggest pain in the ass of all kite accessories I can think of and cause me frequent headaches. But I wear them all the time.

I feel confident enough flying that I don't think I'll put myself in a position to have to drop the handles, but it could happen in the rare event that I flip the bug. If that happens in an breeze blowing on-shore, I lose the kite to the dunes where there are nettles and nasty brush. If the wind blows the other way, I lose the kite to the ocean.

I kite in a shared-use environment and there are frequently people down wind of me. I try to promote the sport, so when a concerned member of the public asks me about safety, I like to point out the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.

I frequently hand my kites to strangers who have never seen one before- even my Reactor 8.3 (if the winds are perfectly gentle for the circumstance). I like being able to tell them to just let go if they feel the need.

And I fly KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s with a strop, as I 'm usually un-hooked on a downwind leg. For upwind work, I am working on a new QR for the strop similar to what Ken posted here sometime back.

If I flew on private land with no hazards on the perimeter, I probably would not wear them.

Scudley - 3-9-2009 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Like Kent, I've been staying away from this one, but since cooler heads have chimed in within the past few days, I'll risk tripping over a troll...

Angus, at the risk of being called a troll, I am going to reply to your points one at time as I respect your opinion but feel that like many of the supporters of kite killers you have been misinformed and continue to spread this disinformation to the detriment of a sport we both love.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
I feel confident enough flying that I don't think I'll put myself in a position to have to drop the handles, but it could happen in the rare event that I flip the bug. If that happens in an breeze blowing on-shore, I lose the kite to the dunes where there are nettles and nasty brush. If the wind blows the other way, I lose the kite to the ocean.

This just restates that kite killers prevent damage to or loss of your kite from if you release it. No one is disputing this. What we are discussing is whether kite killers make you or bystanders safer.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
I kite in a shared-use environment and there are frequently people down wind of me. I try to promote the sport, so when a concerned member of the public asks me about safety, I like to point out the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.

Does this increase their safety or just make them feel better?

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
I frequently hand my kites to strangers who have never seen one before- even my Reactor 8.3 (if the winds are perfectly gentle for the circumstance). I like being able to tell them to just let go if they feel the need.

I also frequently hand my kites to strangers, even my ten meter Reflex, but only if the conditions are such that if they let it go it will not result in: the loss of or damage to my kite; a hazard to anyone downwind. I also tell them to let go if they feel the need, but I do not endanger them by strapping them to my kite.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
And I fly KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s with a strop, as I 'm usually un-hooked on a downwind leg. For upwind work, I am working on a new QR for the strop similar to what Ken posted here sometime back.

-mj-, as the representative of PL, tells us that flying with killers and a strop is definitely not safe. I hope that you will take the advice of your supplier and stop this practice. In the event of an accident which occurred while you were doing so could result in your being liable for damages as you have knowingly engaged in practice the manufacturer has warned you against.
I hope that you will take this not as a troll or flame but as a genuine effort on my part to end what I believe is a practice that may endanger people.
Regards
S

acampbell - 3-9-2009 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

-mj-, as the representative of PL, tells us that flying with killers and a strop is definitely not safe.

Ummmm... no. He questioned the functionality of KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s when hooked in, and I would agree. Hence my mention of a QR, following Ken's great idea. Additionally, in the rare event I take a rough and tumble out of the bug, there is a good chance of being unhooked.

...and as stated I'm usually un-hooked on the downwind leg when there is little tension on the lines and the added maneuverability from being un-hooked is welcome

I will let Marijn correct me if I misunderstood him

awindofchange - 3-9-2009 at 03:55 PM

Scudly.

On the second and third quotes of your post, you question the safety of the kite killers and "Does this increase their safety or just make them feel better? "

On Angus's behalf, I will answer and please correct me if I am wrong Angus....I don't mean to speak for you.

Again I must say (IMO) YES to both quotes!, kite killers are not only safer for the pilot but also safer for the non-kiting people around you while you fly. As I have stated in my earlier post, using a kite beyond your own ability or beyond the recommended wind range of the kite will greatly reduce the safety of any safety device!

Most every surf kite comes with two complete and totally independent safety systems - both of which can be deployed at any time, one safety system to kill the kite, the other to totally release the kite from your person. Still, as most everyone saw on all of the forums, a kite flyer down in Florida flying on the beach before the coming hurricane got lofted off the beach, slammed down on the ground, and then got lofted once again, launched over a road and slammed into the side of a building. He was very lucky to survive. So going along the same lines as you seem to be implementing - the safety systems did not work and did not make the kite or the people around the pilot any safer....and could be constructed in such a way as to say the whole chicken loop safety setup was actually more dangerous and was the main cause for him getting hurt in the first place. Had he not been leashed or hooked in, the kite would have just ripped out of his hands and all would have been fine (except the other moron kiter that was down wind from him - he may have gotten blasted by the kite as it blew away --- ever been hit by an LEI?).

So does this mean that we should boycott all types of safety systems on all kites, including surfing kites? Should we boycott all harness's? By referring to any form of safety system on a kite, are we implementing that no matter what you do you will be perfectly safe? It goes back to the old saying - "If you make something idiot proof, someone will come along and design a better idiot!"

Obviously this is a far fetched extreme but I will still stand by my previous post in that "IF" a kite is flown in its recommended wind range, and "IF" the kite killers are properly installed, and "IF" the killers are deployed in the proper way - it does make it safer for both the pilot as well as any other innocent bystanders in the area. Kite killers work, I have used them myself, I have seen others use them, I have personally witnessed numerous times where a new buggier was saved from being ripped from the buggy by kite killers. I have never once seen someone injured because of the use of the kite killers. Again if you are flying beyond your abilities or in winds that are just to strong - your gonna get hurt regardless of any safety system - kite killers or otherwise.

If you take a kite out in winds that are way stronger than the recommended wind range or fly beyond your own ability, the kite killers are not going to save you and you take a huge risk in getting hurt. Kite killers DO NOT replace common sense and are not a "save all" gimmick.

Anyways, thats my opinion on it. I am not in any way trying to convince (or force) anyone that you should or should not use kite killers. That is something that is probably best decided by you as the pilot and master of your own domain or flying field. Again these are ONLY my personal opinions and nothing more!!! I am only sharing them as such. I don't mean to try and change the way others fly or the way they feel about this subject - but more to give different experiences and insights on other peoples perspectives so they will be able to make the best decision possible.

Hope that helps.

acampbell - 3-9-2009 at 06:01 PM

Thanks Kent for getting my back; I just did not have the energy.

Kamikuza - 3-9-2009 at 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
Since when do laws make sense?

Far more rational thought and discussion went into the writing of these laws than went into the design of kite killers.
S

What, like the helmet laws in the US, Prohibition, legalized tobacco addiction and that Act that protects random animals and plots of land cos the tree huggers get all upset? Go on, pull the other one :lol:

WELDNGOD - 3-9-2009 at 06:19 PM

:wow: I have been flying fixed bridle parafoils for 4+ yrs.now. Nobody here where I live to teach me jack ,so I have learned alot the hard way. I have always used KKs, and still do. And I bet I use them about once every time I am out flyin' in decent wind, or I wasn't havin fun. I never thought of them as a safety device( except so you don't get dragged after a superman) but more like a kite saving device. And they work every time! :ninja:

LeonR - 4-9-2009 at 02:38 AM

I'm not sure if I even qualify to speak my opinion in this topic, i've only flown my kite about 5 times!

My kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are quite comfy and don't seem to get in the way, saying that I have only flown without buggys or boards so i'm not sure if they contribute anything.

Assuming they always work as expected, the only reason you would not wear them is because your scared your kite could get tangled up in something else when your are cruising along?

On my first flying experience a gust of wind really tugged the handles and I was a little scared of the power, so I let go... the kite fell to the ground. If I didn't wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s would it of just flown off across the field and got stuck somewhere?

I feel a little inexperienced to comment really but was just saying my thoughts.

I ask myself, why would you 'not' wear them?

Maven454 - 4-9-2009 at 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
Since when do laws make sense?

Far more rational thought and discussion went into the writing of these laws than went into the design of kite killers.
S

I've got to go with Kamikuza, if you think laws are carefully thought out, you have a much higher opinion of political committees than I do. The problem is that laws are usually thought out by a few people to further some aim and are then bent, broken, and mutilated by committee until they don't even resemble the original.

BeamerBob - 4-9-2009 at 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeonR
I'm not sure if I even qualify to speak my opinion in this topic, i've only flown my kite about 5 times!

My kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are quite comfy and don't seem to get in the way, saying that I have only flown without buggys or boards so i'm not sure if they contribute anything.

Assuming they always work as expected, the only reason you would not wear them is because your scared your kite could get tangled up in something else when your are cruising along?

On my first flying experience a gust of wind really tugged the handles and I was a little scared of the power, so I let go... the kite fell to the ground. If I didn't wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s would it of just flown off across the field and got stuck somewhere?

I feel a little inexperienced to comment really but was just saying my thoughts.

I ask myself, why would you 'not' wear them?

Leon, even in your kiting youth you agree with me and probably half of those that have years of experience. I agree with you completely even at the risk of being looked down upon by the other half as one that must not "know how to fly kites" or "hasn't grown out of them yet". You keep on doing what you're doing and do it the way you feel safest and most in control.

Scudley - 4-9-2009 at 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeonR
Assuming they always work as expected, the only reason you would not wear them is because your scared your kite could get tangled up in something else when your are cruising along?

Assuming they always work may not be a good assumption. See the video of the girl getting dragged.

Quote:

Originally posted by LeonR
On my first flying experience a gust of wind really tugged the handles and I was a little scared of the power, so I let go... the kite fell to the ground. If I didn't wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s would it of just flown off across the field and got stuck somewhere?

Or as Ripsession contends it would have gone into a ball and gently fell to the ground and you would have to untangle your lines. Unless the area where you are flying has a lot of rotor, gravity will bring your kite to the ground pretty fast.

Quote:

Originally posted by LeonR
I feel a little inexperienced to comment really but was just saying my thoughts.

I ask myself, why would you 'not' wear them?

"your kite could get tangled up in something else when your are cruising along?" It is not your kite that is dangerous. It is the lines. Getting hit by a powered foil is startling, but it does not hurt, (I have been hit by a 7m bullet). Getting snagged by lines and having them drag across you is another thing all together.

Maven454 - 4-9-2009 at 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

Assuming they always work may not be a good assumption. See the video of the girl getting dragged.

I think that sentence needs corrected, it should read "See the video of the girl being stupid." Most videos that I have seen where something horrible happens to someone while kiting is because they are using the kite in horrible conditions. And then people blame the safety gear for failing. Safety gear is never as useful when it is being outside of it's intended parameters.

And I think I am now done even reading any thread about kite killers. It's a "discussion" that will never end.

Scudley - 4-9-2009 at 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange
Scudly.

On the second and third quotes of your post, you question the safety of the kite killers and "Does this increase their safety or just make them feel better? "

Again I must say (IMO) YES to both quotes!, kite killers are not only safer for the pilot but also safer for the non-kiting people around you while you fly.

Please state how they make things safer. It is hard to have a rational discussion if one person just quotes dogma.

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange
Most every surf kite comes with two complete and totally independent safety systems - both of which can be deployed at any time, one safety system to kill the kite, the other to totally release the kite from your person.

Sorry to cut out most of that paragraph but it had nothing to do with foils or kite killers. Seeing as my main complaint with kite killers is that there is no complete release thanks for backing my point. As an aside never been hit by an LEI, but I have been hit by a foil. It did not hurt.

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange
So does this mean that we should boycott all types of safety systems on all kites, including surfing kites?

No, just the ones that will not allow you to completely release the kite.

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange
"IF" the killers are deployed in the proper way

like air bags kite killers are a passive system how do you properly deploy them?

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchangeI have personally witnessed numerous times where a new buggier was saved from being ripped from the buggy by kite killers.

If they did not have kite killers on, the kite would have been ripped from their hands and they would be left sitting in the buggy. How would they have been ripped from the buggy after the kite was ripped from their hands?

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange
I have never once seen someone injured because of the use of the kite killers.

I guess I am way up on you there because not only have I seen it, but I have injured someone because of the use of kite killers.

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange
Again if you are flying beyond your abilities or in winds that are just to strong - your gonna get hurt regardless of any safety system - kite killers or otherwise.
If you take a kite out in winds that are way stronger than the recommended wind range or fly beyond your own ability, the kite killers are not going to save you and you take a huge risk in getting hurt. Kite killers DO NOT replace common sense and are not a "save all" gimmick.

Anyways, thats my opinion on it. I am not in any way trying to convince (or force) anyone that you should or should not use kite killers. That is something that is probably best decided by you as the pilot and master of your own domain or flying field. Again these are ONLY my personal opinions and nothing more!!! I am only sharing them as such. I don't mean to try and change the way others fly or the way they feel about this subject - but more to give different experiences and insights on other peoples perspectives so they will be able to make the best decision possible.

Hope that helps.

Same here. I have to say it really pysses me off when someone invents a fact, such as the French Law argument in a previous post, or spouts some other malarkey in favour of their view point. It is intellectually dishonest and may result in someone getting hurt.
S

Kamikuza - 4-9-2009 at 08:27 AM

Used correctly, they make things safer by totally de-powering the kite when you let go of the handles and then they stop the kite flying downwind and wrapping around powerlines, passing cars, kids on bikes etc. Safety for the user and safety for the public.
Especially in good winds - I'll tell my story again cos this is what I'm basing my 'dogma' on ... when I was learning and without KKs, I got hit by a gust and dumped my Rebble 5.0's handles - the kite floated on the wind like a parachute, still mostly inflated, downwind with the handles dragging on the ground while I ran after it - I caught it after a football field or so and it would have made it's way onto the road and still been airborn. It was a good wind that day and the kite didn't ball up.
Fast-forward to this year ... I had KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s on, I launched the 4.5 Bullet in gusty conditions and on the way off the ground, the handles got ripped out of my grip - the kite fluttered straight down, I picked the handles up and relaunched. If it had done the same thing my Rebble had done, it would have gone into powerlines, across a road ...
I've had my Kitewing ripped out of my hands in a gust too - I got pulled off my kite board and the leash got ripped from my wrist. If something is going to pull that hard, the velcro will give way long before you get dragged ... probably

don't do 'em up so tight if you're worried about it!

What are the options if you don't have KKs on? Let go one handle - catapult it around your field. Let go two handles - lose control of the kite. Hold on and try to ride it out - god knows what'd happen - nose dive and worse probably ...

archkiter - 4-9-2009 at 08:46 AM

Scudley, have you seen the Ozone kitekillers? it seems these ones do allow you to have a quick release. They each have a big d-loop that you pull and off they come.

Personally I do see a place for kite killers (unhooked, learning, away from other kiters) and I do see a place for not using kite killers.

I don't use them any more, but I did get some good use out of them while learning. Only stopped using them when I started hooking in in the buggy- then they become dangerous in my opinion cause they can accidently get snagged in the spreader hook and send the kite in to a death spiral. Also, as pointed out, they don't work when they you are hooked in unless you can unhook- for me in this case, grabbing a handful of the break lines works just as well.

awindofchange - 4-9-2009 at 01:41 PM

I have purposly deleted my full reply as I just don't have time to nit-pick every little word of every post or try to justify my comments that have been taken out of context.

Instead I will just stand by my origional statement and leave it at that.

Kite killers are safe when used responsibly.

I think that any information regarding this topic has been hashed, re-hashed and then regurgitated up and rehashed again - so - I don't feel there is any more need to continue or post any more.

Scudley, you have reminded me once again of why I originally chose to stay out of this post.

Now I am off to fly this weekend with some dear friends, give demo's and training... and I may even use kite killers. :)

Kamikuza - 4-9-2009 at 06:08 PM

Can I get zippers in my kite killers? That'd make me happy. :D

WELDNGOD - 5-9-2009 at 06:21 AM

I have 2 kinds of KKs, flexifoil and HQ. Neither of them could drag me anywhere. I have already ripped 1 set to pieces in an OBE. Those litte bungee cords aren't sewn on that good. What kind does everybody else got?
I don't see the "unsafeness"in it. If you let go of the handles, the kite lays backwards . Being pulled by the brake lines only. At which point the kite is not a kite anymore but rather some ball of nylon flappin,around like a pigeon was caught in it. I have had the wind blowing enough that it just stayed in the air ,flappin around twisting the lineset all to crap. But it never had enough power to even slightly pull

I still use mine and anybody I teach to fly will wear em, at least while they are flying MY gear.

shehatesmyhobbies - 5-9-2009 at 07:45 AM

Weldngod, I use the flexifoil ones and they are comfortable,reliable (so far) and worn every time I fly a fixed bridle. I also fly at public use fields most of the time and they have always saved me and my kite from certain trouble when it arrives unexpectedly.

I had the field mainly to myself one day and a car pulled up and the couple got out to walk their dog. I was down field at the time and made a turn to come back up field. I saw the couple as well as the dog and they were plenty out of my way. As I got closer out of nowhere the dog bolted out into the field to intercept me and my buggy, I had no time to make any counter maneuvers so I let go of the handles to instantly depower my kite and the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s kept my kite from heading directly into the tree line ahead of me. Not a life saving situation, just a kite saving situation. I was able to miss the dog, stop my kite and buggy safely, and continue by merely grabbing my handles again. Maybe if the dog had kite killers on (leash) I wouldn't have had to let go. Just one of those situations.

I like the fact that I can let go of my handles in a less than desirable situation and know that my kite, lines and handles are not going to interrupt someone elses day.

DAKITEZ - 5-9-2009 at 10:13 AM

what a good discussion ... this is going better than a I love or hate pansh discussion :lol:

It has got steered off course a bit. I am going to try and throw it back on course. So my question goes out to those of you against kite killers ... would you reconsider the use of kite killers for others safer and more user friendly if they had a secondary safety release?

It kinda sounds like Ozone is on the right track, but I feel it would be safer if you only needed to pull one safety instead of having to pull the safety on both hands. JMHO

I'm simply trying to come up with a better kite killer idea so maybe if we can come up with a better kite killer we could all agree that they are a good idea to wear and end this debate. :thumbup:

Scudley - 5-9-2009 at 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ
would you reconsider the use of kite killers for others safer and more user friendly if they had a secondary safety release?

It kinda sounds like Ozone is on the right track, but I feel it would be safer if you only needed to pull one safety instead of having to pull the safety on both hands. JMHO

I'm simply trying to come up with a better kite killer idea so maybe if we can come up with a better kite killer we could all agree that they are a good idea to wear and end this debate. :thumbup:

Secondary release would go along to removing the hazards that I see. Ozone killers are certainly easier to remove than the flexifoil killers.

For those who think that the Velcro straps are not very strong, I tried a couple of experiments: using of ratcheting tie down straps to see if I could pull the Velcro apart on FF kite killer wrist cuff from a 2.5 steel pipe; see if the one cuff would support my body weight. I realize these are tests of static load, not dynamic but the cuff did not release loaded with my body weight or tightening the ratchet on the tie strap until I could not tighten it anymore. I think it indicates that the velcro cuff is not likely to release until loaded beyond the load required to dislocate a shoulder.

revpaul - 5-9-2009 at 10:50 AM

Quote:

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

-I've been teaching friends and family for years, years, and years how to fly kites.-
Always used 'my' kites to teach with and always, always instructed/explained and demonstrated how letting go is the best policy(of course there is no one in harms way). Even with hard framed kites.
-I've been shaking my head for just as long-
because not one of any of them has ever "let go if they feel they need to" until long after they learn how to handle a kite. no amount of hollering "let go, let go", or "run ahead, run ahead", or "just keep the kite high in air for now" ever works until the kites have suffered a few hard crashes.
there is always thudding booms of a foil and/or cracking of framed kites involved in teaching.
maybe i'm just a bad teacher?
Paul
PS you really should just except the simple fact that some people prefer to use KKS (whether they need to or not)?

Scudley - 5-9-2009 at 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by revpaul

PS you really should just except the simple fact that some people prefer to use KKS (whether they need to or not)?

I do not mind if people decide to use killers if they are making an informed decision. My sense from the replies submitted when I asked this question last year was that the decision was based on misinformation. Misinformation such as "I was not pulled out of the buggy because I had killers on." ( It is not the killers that prevented the OBE, but that you let go of the handles.) Making an informed decision requires the information you make the decision on to be correct. There is more BS about what kks do and do not do, such the one cited above, that makes for poor decision making.
How about :

Kite killers work as required 99% of the time, but you may be in serious trouble when they do not.
Kite killers are not a reason for flying a kite in winds you would otherwise think are beyond your ability.
Kite killers will not save you from being dragged. It is letting go the handles. (Remember your first instinct is going to be to hold on
Kite killers should not be used with a strop (if one killer released the kite may power up and be completely out of control.
Kite killers are not to be used as a factor in deciding what kite you should fly.
In rare event that kite killers fail to depower your kite. Getting the cuffs off is not going to be easy or fast expect to be dragged for some distance.
Kite killers can prevent damage to your kite from things beyond the length of your kite lines.
Kite killers bring objects within the length of your lines into are in danger. The is especially true if there is relative motion between these objects and the kite or pilot.
Kite killers are less likely to depower a kite in turbulent conditions. A tangled bridal can cause your to suddenly be surprisingly efficient at flying backwards.
Kite killers can prevent someone from being struck by a flying handle.
Kite killers are not to be used as a factor in your decision as to the suitability of a flying location. If you would not fly there with out kite killers, you probably should not be flying there.

Feel free to add to that list or criticize what is there.
Someone pointed out that there are no studies of kite killers. I suggest there by topic for kite incidents so that we may review the information. It could a set of topics of its own: How I let go of my kite; My OBE; etc. Then we could have our own study on how to keep our sport safe are what are safe practices.
S

furbowski - 5-9-2009 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley
Then we could have our own study on how to keep our sport safe are what are safe practices.
S

ummm...

one assumption here, that you're working towards a set of safe practices for all kite flyers...

if so, a couple of problems.

1) every kite flyer flies with a different set of skills in a different location with different etc, and KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be appropriate in some of those situations because they can reduce the risks or the consequences of the risks.

2) every kite flyer ultimately takes the consequences for the risks they take. It's a very individual thing, really. So they should make their own decisions, with best facts possible at hand to refer to.

So I guess the best outcome in a way is for a resource from which people can decide for themselves, imho.

kinda the same as what you're saying?:puzzled:

Kamikuza - 5-9-2009 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Kite killers will not save you from being dragged. It is letting go the handles. (Remember your first instinct is going to be to hold on)

And this is a big part of the problem with kite accidents that I can see - the situations that have me thinking "Why didn't he just let go?" With $2000 on the end of the lines, people don't like to let go and release the kite, they'll try to ride it out or fly it back under control - even if that's not a conscious decision.
KKs and leashes give me the confidence to just dump the kite - my first instinct is to let go

You've made a number of statements in that list that need to be backed up ... who says KKs work 99% of the time and you'll be in trouble if they don't? Who has said they use KKs to fly overpowered in locations and conditions they wouldn't fly without them? Who says KKs are less likely to depower in turbulent conditions?

speleopower - 7-9-2009 at 09:06 AM

This website has really gotten bad. I'm pretty much done.

Yes we learned to fly a long time ago with Wipika kites. But noone that I know of was trying to launch huge jumps or fly in crazy conditions right after getting a kite. No one knew you could do giant jumps, flips, ride huge waves etc. We flew responsibily. Did not exceed our skill levels and we flew when there was no chance of hitting something or someone down wind. Heck I never even crashed my Wipika kite.

It's an extreme sport and should be treated as such. Use whatever gear you want to but always fly within your skill level.

Scott

furbowski - 7-9-2009 at 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by speleopower
This website has really gotten bad. I'm pretty much done.

It's sad to hear that, you're one of the folks i look up to most on here.

Kamikuza - 8-9-2009 at 07:18 PM

Gosh this isn't close to being contentious ... a healthy discussion sure, but nothing like the drama that goes on at ooh I dunno say kiteforum.com :lol:

check out the helmet thread there!

acampbell - 9-9-2009 at 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by speleopower
This website has really gotten bad. I'm pretty much done.
Scott

Just ignore a thread when the Trolls show up. OK, I peeked here but it's like looking at a car wreck.

BeamerBob - 9-9-2009 at 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Kite killers are not to be used as a factor in your decision as to the suitability of a flying location. If you would not fly there with out kite killers, you probably should not be flying there.

S

I haven't even looked at these threads for almost a week but saw that Angus posted and decided that reason had gained a foothold. Alas I was dragged in just like Angus was when he peeked in.

I disagree with this one item Scudley but can actually agree almost completely with the others. I have a site that is perfectly suitable to fly in as long as I'm in control of my kite's destiny. I can fly and even let go of my handles and not be within 2-3 line lengths from trees, powerlines, or a roadway. If I let my kite go without kite killers, it is probably trashed by getting caught up in trees. If I'm flying a kite that is well powered, I can't imagine coming to the conclusion that:
A. I'm better off not flying there than flying with kite killers.
B. I'm better off without the kite killers, spelling almost certain doom for my kite and at the least inconvenience and annoyance for the lacrosse players that usually play right beside the treeline in the event something unusual happened that caused me to have to let go of the handles. Unless I'm underpowered and constantly working the kite to get enough power to roll about, I wouldn't consider riding there or much of anywhere else without my helmet and kite killers (unless flying depower which makes the helmet automatic).

furbowski

10-9-2009 at 06:26 AM

I like the possibility of sharing opinions and situations in a civilized way that this forum represents, and I know for darn sure following this argument has sharpened my usage of KKs, so I'm going to drop something in here before it disappears off today's posts.

Those who think this discussion is troll-ridden and useless should head over to Yahoo news and check out the mudslinging and ubertrollish behavior mutually engaged in by birthers and liberals on any thread to do with obama, now that's futile stuff.

(and I'm uncomfortable bringing politics on here yes, but that's all I'm going to say, it seemed like too good an example to pass up, go have a look (if you are so lucky as to be unaware of it, you might want to just take my word for it) and you will see what I mean)

Anyway, enough opinion.

On to the situation:

I used kitekillers today to help me fly a kite at and well beyond the edge of my abilities, an HQ crossfire 3.2 in typhoon winds gusting to 22-23 knots at first, gusting possibly 30 knots by the end. There were tall trees 50m downwind of the beach, and I was on 27m lines. I weigh 160 pounds and I've been flying kites static for two years, so I is still a bit of a noob...

I put the kite up once without kite killers, did a little figure eight up top, and got lofted slightly so I slid the kite back and forth across the edge of the window, collapsed the kite in a lull, recovered deep in the window in a gust, got pulled into an almost superman morphing into a loft, redirected in time, and landed the kite as soon as I was back on my feet. If I had been lofted again before getting back upwind, I don't think I could have kept the kite out of the trees. As it happens, I was lucky to land the thing. It was my last successful landing of the session.

I put the kitekillers on, launched again, and felt confident I could keep the kite out of the trees, and so I played around a bit with gentle jumps and semi-loftings. But I was having to work the gusts and they were coming through fast, so I couldn't really set up for a full-on pendulum. It was obvious I was overpowered, as I was getting lofted a bit with most of the stronger gusts. Holding the kite at the edge of the window wasn't an option, the wind was too wiggly and recovering from the collapses seemed riskier with this kite than floating out a landing. When I went to a landing, the kite just got too twitchy to land on brakes about 20 degrees off the ground. I tried a few things, ending up in a pinwheel that was gaining altitude after twisting the lines too much for me to have control. So I went to the killers, not much of a yank, with the tension off the powers the twisted lines loosened enough so the kite was able to flag out on the brakes.

So after ten minutes I decided to have one last try, I knew I was already past the "I'm not going to fly this wind with this kite again" decision, but it seemed to be educational while still survivable, sort of a semi-darwin opportunity TBH, so I went to the handles again. The crossfire 3.2 is a pretty safe kite to hot-launch at the top of its wind range. It inflates slowly, so if I keep a little brake on it until it gets to the edge, it doesn't ever inflate enough to get full power. Then one pass to zenith and it gets the speed and pops alive and I'm getting a loft.

anyways, it was a short session, a few passes and the russian roulette buzz was getting a bit too loud, so I went for a landing, tried my best, just couldn't get it down, it turned into an epic, I was determined to get it down without going to the killers, i even tried landing it at the edge and letting it roll in a tangle around to downwind, but got into the deadly pinwheel again and went to the killers. As soon as it broke, the kite flagged out on brake line and gently drifted to the ground. When I got home and checked the nearest wind station I found the gusts had been hitting 55 km/h. Divide by 1.8 and I get 30 knots.

So I'll never fly that wind again with that kite. I could have always let go, but the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in this case allowed me to manage the risk of my kite getting caught in the trees, and so I was glad to have them...

So there you go, one more opinion and one more situation to add to this thread, which I still have high hopes for. Maybe the opinion I present isn't relevant to kiting, but for sure it represents a situation where people can't learn from each other.

:wee:

:frog:

Kamikuza

10-9-2009 at 07:07 AM

Yes but did you have a helmet on? :D

furbowski

10-9-2009 at 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
Yes but did you have a helmet on? :D

No but I was flying on soft loose sand and not trying to get air unless I was under some control...

With 500m of room downwind and the room to send it, well yes helmet and everything else, but then I'd be tempted to fly my 5m ace or something stupid like that in winds gusting 30 knots by the end of the session....:o:o:o:puzzled: :no:

In other words, I had already been tempted to put up the ace 5 in those winds, if I had the extra safety protection maybe I would have, but would the safety protection keep me safe with 40% more angry ripstop yanking about on the end of my lines? I'm not sure.

The soft loose sand I fly on makes all the difference. On hard-pack or wet grass I would have had to be happy flying my DP power 2.5, which is actually a jumpable kite in the conditions I had today

I wish I had video.... I wasn't wearing a helmet but I only lost my balance a couple times in the gusts, and only went to my knees even then. It was the upwards, not the downwards, that was making me nervous.

hmmm

kiterider

11-9-2009 at 10:44 PM

well well well.....

this thread has me shakin my head.

( i will admit up front that i have not read this thread word for word but my take is that it is mostly a pros/ cons kite killers.)

and hears what you all should know.

if you use kk in strong enough wind(without a qr) they will not make you or anyone around you safer.
(im starting to think that alot of people here kite in 10 knots or less!)

this is what i know from personal experience.
if you let go of your kite in strong enough winds when using kk it is not a garuntee that your kite will fall nicely to the ground and land gently on the traling edge.

NOOOOOOOOO!! far from it your kite will start to turn(wichever direction it decides)
and now your kite is facing tail edge into the wind and wants to fly itself to the edge of the window( for discussions sake lets say at half power)

off the back lines( it does not matter how far up the back lines you put your attachment point for kk)

and start to do some funky undulations as it comes back into the window and flys itself back to the edge.....

at the side of the window or at zenith....

or fold up and reopen(that one is my personal fave)...

your kite will decide because you will have absolutely no controll over what your kite is doing right now.PREIOD.

so here is when you get to start to think with that little voice inside your head that calm clear and concise one .......

gee sure is a nice day to day...

mmmm sure is nice and windy .....

glad i have my helmet on...

i wonder if i should try and tear theese to two wristcuffs off.....

i knew i should have run these kk directly to my harness with a qr.....

(which is what i have done for when and only when i think that by letting go of my kite i will lose it :P... eg kiting on ice or snow covered lake )...

or should i try and get back to the handles and try to regain controll...

gee i wonder if there are any people downwind of me i cant see because i am too busy trying to get this outa controll kite off a me

that said i do not use kk 99 % of the time.

i also own a sabre 1 ok kite it has the saftey on to the two back lines with a common leash with a qr ok saftey system...but not good and certainly not great...

apperantly it received a few comlaints
and as we all know(or not i guess) :smilegrin:

5 th line safety is the only safe system for a foil kite (and a tube kite for that matter)

and flexi foil went to a 5th line safety for the sabre 2 (CORRECT me if im wrong :shocked2: )

wow it feels like i just wrote a 1000 word essay .... i think i should go back to school haha

i guess the main point of this post is if your gonna use kk use a qr

kapiche ;-)

cheers

Kamikuza

12-9-2009 at 04:59 AM

Are you only using one KK or only letting go one hand or something?

dgkid78

12-9-2009 at 06:27 PM

I hate to beat a dead horse. and i don't know if anyone brought this up or not cause i refuse to read 3 pages of going back and forth, but rather than start a new can of worms on a new post i would figure i would post here.

Many are against KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, and thats fine. I could care less since i don't play with them :tumble:

BUT

What about the depowerable kites with leashes? your still attached to the kite? no?
is anyone against this for the Peter Lynn arcs? Because I am really interested in these kites and am accustomed to leashless safety systems from HQ

I look at KK and A Leash as the same. they both flag out the kite, right? while attached

Keep in mind people I am avoiding to be called a troll. :saint:

Scudley

13-9-2009 at 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dgkid78
What about the depowerable kites with leashes? your still attached to the kite? no?
is anyone against this for the Peter Lynn arcs? Because I am really interested in these kites and am accustomed to leashless safety systems from HQ
I look at KK and A Leash as the same. they both flag out the kite, right? while attached

All the leashes I have seen have a quick release. With kite killers there is no quick release.
Leashes are not attached to your wrist, Killers are attached to both wrists. If you are being dragged by your wrists, I think you would find very hard to use your hands to remove the cuffs.
A leash is a single line attached to the kite with an emergency release. Killers are two lines attached to the kite and there is no emergency release.
Do you look at Porches and and Pintos as the same. They both do the same thing. I think you will agree with me that doing the same thing does not make things the same. Try getting a date because you own a Pinto.

S

Kamikuza

13-9-2009 at 06:55 PM

Just for you Scudders my dear, I'm going to do some Mythbusters tests with my KKs cos I don't believe that the velcro would be strong enough to pull me around ... :lol:

... how pimped out is your Pinto though?

dgkid78

13-9-2009 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley

Quote:

I was just simply asking thats all. as I don't have much experience with leashes or KKs. I just own leashless depowers. and only had KKs for a few months with my crossfires before moving to depower. I am only furthering my knowledge of different kites and different safety systems. There is no need to be talking down to me just because of a simple couple of questions. :moon: I didn't mean for the questions to sound rude. my mind was just racing while i was typing.

I understand people can be passionate about the sport but dammmmmm calm down man.