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Arcs auto zenith

power - 1-11-2009 at 08:45 PM

I know that PL twinskins have auto zenith, but do LEI's have that too?

Kamikuza - 1-11-2009 at 08:55 PM

No not really

macboy - 1-11-2009 at 10:11 PM

Although some do claim it. I think even Flysurfer uses that term don't they?

Either way - if you've never experienced the auto-zenith first hand you may be led to believe that others have some semblance of it but really, I think arcs are one of the only power kites you can "trust" eyes off (not that you should do that......but you know what I mean).

Bail a trick, blow a jump, lose your footing........just let go of the bar and when you come to a stop look up 'cuz that's where the kite will be...waiting patiently (sometimes mockingly) for you to shake it off and try again.

WolfWolfee - 1-11-2009 at 10:30 PM

preach to the faithful for I am a believer...lol

macboy - 1-11-2009 at 10:36 PM

hehehehe

It's a beautiful thing, ain't it? Still haven't quite got used to the amount of wind you can put these things up in but hoping for big things once the snow flies here. We'll have to hit Slave Lake this winter maybe - we have access to a cabin in Kinuso which is on a leeward shore in NW winds. Damn near kite to the door. Just build up speed and autozenith before you get to the road so you clear the trees :lol:

ripsessionkites - 2-11-2009 at 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by macboy
Bail a trick, blow a jump, lose your footing........just let go of the bar and when you come to a stop look up 'cuz that's where the kite will be...waiting patiently (sometimes mockingly) for you to shake it off and try again.

very true!
over the weekend in our muddy park eye witnesses saw me slide out from my landing. I flipped over forward on the board and slid on my back. The first thing I did was let go of the bar and worried more about my rolling / dragging backwards into a huge wet pond. I moved about 5 feet as the Syn was finding zenith but i felt safe the whole experience. Knowing that your kite will always head back up even with no hands, gives you some freedom to worry about other things.

it was a WET day.

power - 2-11-2009 at 07:27 AM

But if you let go of everything with an LEI, will it just crash or kind of float and rise up?

Kamikuza - 2-11-2009 at 07:31 AM

Crash. It'll just keep going wherever it feels like.
Don't forget, arcs don't Hindenburg (stall) either ... well, not really - quick tug on the front lines keeps it real.
I recall a particularly fun afternoon spent under a 16m C-kite that nosedived 4 times on me then got trapped under the waves at the shore break. I ended up kicking and dragging it down the beach in a foul mood and giving up.

ragden - 2-11-2009 at 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
Crash. It'll just keep going wherever it feels like. ...

This is absolutely correct. An LEI will almost always crash if you let go of it. The one exception being if you are flying unhooked and have a suicide leash setup. In that case, it might fly back towards zenith (seen this in some videos), but it isnt a gauranteed thing. Better to expect it to crash into the water, and hard...

If things go bad with an LEI you either let it crash, or grab the bar right in the middle and hold on until it goes back up to zenith. This is not a bad default position as it will typically keep the kite up in the air and heading towards zenith. But you have to have your hands right in the middle of the bar for this to work.

trancein1 - 2-11-2009 at 09:35 AM

Cant wait to try the Guerilla 18m to do that...

snobdr - 2-11-2009 at 09:37 AM

A C kite will stayed powered untill it crashes, A bow will depower and head to the side of the window. Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted.

BeamerBob - 2-11-2009 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
A C kite will stayed powered untill it crashes, A bow will depower and head to the side of the window. Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted.

What kind of kite stays powered when you turn loose of the bar AND heads to zenith?

snobdr - 2-11-2009 at 10:39 AM

An Arc

acampbell - 2-11-2009 at 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
A C kite will stayed powered untill it crashes, A bow will depower and head to the side of the window.

I'm surprised you were the first to point this out. Modern bows will sit and bob at the edge on the window, de-powered and waiting for you. Guys on our beach will self launch and land all the time this way. Just put the chicken loop on a good anchor, set the kite on a wingtip at the edge of the window and leave it floating a foot or two off the ground while you walk leisurely back the the bar. Landing just as easy, in reverse.

Quote:

Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted.

So wrong. Like your modern bow, let go and the ARC de-powers, but in this case slowly drifts to the zenith. If I let go of the bar with my ARCs at park-and-ride-speed in the buggy, it will de-power and drift up without swooping or lofting.

The only way the kite could stay powered or loft you is (possibly) if you had it way out proper trim in the first place.

Just ask any number of ARC fliers that tie the kite off to a log, trailer hitch, or fence-post while they go have lunch.

Maven454 - 2-11-2009 at 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted.

But it's not 100% depower!!! Only Hitler had that.

snobdr - 2-11-2009 at 10:47 AM

I hung onto a 16M scorp in decent winds, It would pick me up off the ground in gusts and it was in depowered position. They depower but not like a modern bow. There is still power in the kite. Ive seen vids of Carl getting dragged 30Ft or so after bailing. If you wipeout with the kite in the meat of the power zone with an arc you are getting dragged.

action jackson - 2-11-2009 at 10:53 AM

Snobdr, I dont think 5 min of experience you have any input in this conversation.You will not get tea baged with an arc like a lei! Just let go of the bar! I have 1000's of hr experience with arcs...............aj

BeamerBob - 2-11-2009 at 11:03 AM

In my first few sessions learning to kitesurf, I crashed myself many times and went completely under water in the process. Every time I would consciously push the bar away and when I floated back to the surface (stationary) the Synergy was sitting there waiting on me. My phantom is the same way. Not 100% depower of course, but not enough power to roll me faster than walking speed (on hard sand) in the buggy either. Getting dragged or lofted by a depowered arc would require a kite that is being used above its recommended wind range. I imagine the videos of Carl might have him in this situation and I would think he might take out a larger kite for conditions than your average non-company rider. Or possibly momentum of his body might be a factor.

Discussing this stuff with you snobdr is much like talking politics with friends and family that are further away from the aisle than I am on the other side. They take a telescopic view of a situation and expand it out as if its regular and common, when in fact its a pinpoint situation and not representative at all of what one would normally find or expect.

snobdr - 2-11-2009 at 11:07 AM

Yea your right AJ. I have no experence. The kite picking me off my feet must be from inexperence. Watching vids of carl getting dragged just must be i dont know what im looking at.

snobdr - 2-11-2009 at 11:25 AM

I was always taught to keep the kite low, launch grab your gear and get riding. Keeping the kite over your head was how you get lofted.
The arc dosent have the depower of a modern bow. Even with the kite depowered there is still the ability to loft. When you crash, the kite still has to fly to get to zenith, if you dumped it in the power zone its still there untill it flys out of it. Even with the bar out there is alot of power there.

acampbell - 2-11-2009 at 11:34 AM

Trim the kite right and trim the right kite.

BeamerBob - 2-11-2009 at 11:38 AM

There must be a forum somewhere that is biased towards inflatable kites.

action jackson - 2-11-2009 at 11:51 AM

The kitecat weight is 75 lbs! The kite is depowered and will stay at the zeinth till the wind drops below 7mph. ........aj

kitecat resize.jpg - 26kB

bigkahuna - 2-11-2009 at 12:33 PM

I flew Arcs for 6 years and it wasn't until bows that LEI's had as much depower as an Arc. I now fly SLE's and teach using bows. If you were getting dragged down the beach with an arc "fully depowered" then:

a. You had way too much kite in the air, or
b. Your kite wasn't trimmed to fully depower

macboy - 2-11-2009 at 01:45 PM

Lofted no, but you will get dragged - especially if you crashed just as you were turning up from the down swing of a sine. If the kite's pointed to the zenith already it'll be pretty powered in transit - pretty sure that's how I got submarined but all the while I knew it would end and if not I was ready on the pin to cut loose.

ripsessionkites - 2-11-2009 at 02:03 PM

here is something to add to the mix some lei(s) like the delta shaped ones now have "self / auto relaunch"

i've seen a bandit drift to the side of the window on its own and relaunch.

technology keeps getting better and safer. :wee:

***stated before I use no PL Safety only the Suicide Leash*** I've never had to pull the Red Hat or use the Bar Leash.

snobdr - 2-11-2009 at 02:19 PM

About being dragged,

Kahuna says it cant happen unless you have the wrong kite

Macboy says it can and does happen "thats how he got submarined"
BeamerBob also stated he crashed and "went completely under the water"
I also heard first hand from a kiter of this happening with arcs.

Who is right here?

Maven454 - 2-11-2009 at 02:25 PM

I'd have to say (from my very limited experience) that if it's in the power zone you're likely to get dragged, but only for a very short period of time.

PHREERIDER - 2-11-2009 at 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by power
I know that PL twinskins have auto zenith,

wind dependent only ..absolute

quote]Originally posted by power
but do LEI's have that too?

only in the hands of competent operator with aleast one hand, and one eye and appreciable mass and the absence of mind that PL ARCS exist

bigkahuna - 2-11-2009 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

About being dragged, Kahuna says it cant happen unless you have the wrong kite Macboy says it can and does happen "thats how he got submarined" BeamerBob also stated he crashed and "went completely under the water" I also heard first hand from a kiter of this happening with arcs. Who is right here?

You're misquoting me and we were talking about different things. Believe what you want.

carltb - 2-11-2009 at 03:09 PM

yes i do get dragged when i wipe out, but as people have already stated, i do tend to fly my arcs at the top end of their range or above. (today was a good example, vid on its way)
if you are flying with your bar and kite set up properly then the flying position for the bar is 1/3 the way in so if or when you do wipe out you loose all back line tension and the kite goes to zenith at drastically redused power.
arcs arebuilt around the single line kite princible. and that is the reason why it will alway find zenith.
if you took both tips of an arc and fastened them together to make a circle you would be able to fly it on a single line.

carltb - 2-11-2009 at 03:14 PM

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=11433&p...

YOU HAVE TO WAIT TIL THE END

markite - 2-11-2009 at 03:42 PM

Quote:

I also heard first hand from a kiter of this happening with arcs. Who is right here?

Keep in mind it also depends on how you have it set up on your bar. With the standard PL bars (not long throw), if you had the strap adjusted for max power and then you are flying at the higher end of the wind range then yes there is still some power as the kite moves through the window when you let go of the bar. If there is any rear line tension you'll get power. If it's set lighter, or flying in wind not as high or flying with a longer throw then the kite will depower way more.
We have so many days in the winter out at Keswick in high gusty winds and white out when we are having a great day out using the Arcs and many LEI guys are talking about just surviving. I use both for different reasons but get out on a wild day and even though some guys are doing okay with whatever kite they chose, we are often out the entire day while the others go in spurts. Two years ago one Toronto seller was boasting the total safety aspects of using Ozone foils in the - three really good injuries all with Frenzies that winter. All gear has it's ups and downs depending on how you use it.
It's all what you are used to - spend a lot of time learning your kite inside out and every nuance and you'll have a great time with whatever you use and have the right instincts for that kite when sh*t happens.

macboy - 2-11-2009 at 04:24 PM

For me, being dragged is the skill I decided to perfect before I move on. I almost have it dialed in. Hopefully I can get it before NABX so I can really get a feel for the Playa :lol:

BeamerBob - 2-11-2009 at 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkahuna

Quote:

You're misquoting me and we were talking about different things. Believe what you want.

My words were twisted too. I went underwater not because of the kite but because my board stopped supporting my weight because I fell. The kite had nothing to do with me being under water except it had pulled me to the deep water ON MY BOARD with a smile on my face.

carltb - 2-11-2009 at 04:34 PM

ok hears a question for snob. whilst kiting in waves, and you wipe out, would you prefer a kite that goes to the edge of the window and loses all power or a kite thats there waiting for you when you come out of the washing machine!!!

snobdr - 2-11-2009 at 04:49 PM

In waves i want a kite that holds its shape if i happen to go right at it.
But your point well taken carl.
My kites depower completly weather im in the mid low or high end of the kite

Kamikuza - 2-11-2009 at 05:55 PM

Oh ... is there a law that we must fly the kite with the most de-power?
I musta missed that one ... in that case, who wants to buy a bunch of Peter Lynn arcs?

macboy - 2-11-2009 at 09:11 PM

Shipping's too expensive from Japan ; )

Kamikuza - 2-11-2009 at 11:59 PM

No it's not - it's just too far :lol:

bigkahuna - 3-11-2009 at 01:18 AM

Quote:

In waves i want a kite that holds its shape if i happen to go right at it...

Yup. If you go down a face right towards an Arc and the lines go limp, the Arc's tips will "flare" and the kite will slowly float downwind until you take tension on the lines again. It's similar to how my SLE's fly, except the "wing tip flare" bit. If I got crunched in a wave, I would let go of the bar until I got back to the surface and re-oriented. The kite would invariably be sitting there just about where I left it. The autozenith tendency is something that happens very -slowly-, the kite doesn't "shoot" up to the zenith. The only Arc I've flown that had a bit stronger autozenith was the Bomba, which tended to always head to the zenith unless you consciously steered it back down. The Guerillas, GII's, Phantoms and Venoms all had pretty light auto-zenith tendencies. Just like comparing my old C LEI's versus my newer SLE's. My old C kites would just about drop out of the sky if I didn't constantly give it some upward input, whereas my SLE's sort of hover a bit and slowly head to the ground.

Kamikuza - 3-11-2009 at 05:09 AM

So in an emergency you recommend letting go of the bar, when flying arcs?

bigkahuna - 3-11-2009 at 05:23 AM

Quote:

So in an emergency you recommend letting go of the bar, when flying arcs?

No, I didn't say that. When I get crunched in a wave (the wave closes out on top of me, or I pearl down a face) and go underwater, spun around and disoriented, rather than trying to remember which way was -up- and flying the kite up in that direction, I would let go of the bar and when I finally surfaced, the kite was always still up in the air. With inflatos, I don't have that convenience and have to try to remember which way is up and continue to steer the kite while being spun around underwater.

What you should do in an emergency depends on what that emergency is. Getting crunched in a wave, to me at least, isn't an emergency, it's just something that happens while surfing. (And hopefully doesn't happen very often!)

carltb - 3-11-2009 at 06:10 AM

just what i was gunna say.

its always best to keep hold of the bar and put the kite where you want it, but in those times were you dont know which way is up, or if you've been spun around afew time, or have spun the bar the wrong way and think you're gunna grab the wrong end of the bar, then just let go of the bar and it will set back to default!

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 06:36 AM

Lazy mans kite skills

carltb - 3-11-2009 at 06:44 AM

i dont quite think im a lazy kiter or that my skill level is anything but professional! and i take your comment as a direct insult.

Bladerunner - 3-11-2009 at 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Lazy mans kite skills

That wasn't called for SNOB

I have been wondering why I NEVER see any of your amazing kite skills. If you are so friggin great why don't you show us a vid ?

Pictures speak a 1,000 words .[ Edit do to misunderstanding.]

You have driven many members away from this forum with your Snobbery. I'm tired of it and miss those people who wouldn't put up with you.

We aren't supposed to suggest other forumss but there must be another one out there where people appreciate your attitude?

action jackson - 3-11-2009 at 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Lazy mans kite skills

That wasn't called for SNOB

I have been wondering why I NEVER see any of your amazing kite skills. If you are so friggin great why don't you show us a vid ?

Pictures speak a 1,000 words . I saw you trying to teach your wife ( still ) in a picture and one word came to mind, LARGE !

You have driven many members away from this forum with your Snobbery. I'm tired of it and miss those people who wouldn't put up with you.

We aren't supposed to suggest other forumss but there must be another one out there where people appreciate your attitude?

Ditto!

Maven454 - 3-11-2009 at 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
Pictures speak a 1,000 words . I saw you trying to teach your wife ( still ) in a picture and one word came to mind, LARGE !

Speaking of not called for... :ticking:

I have to say, I have met Dr. Snob in person and he's a great guy. On the forum though, I'll agree that he's a bit... trollish.

BeamerBob - 3-11-2009 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maven454
........ On the forum though, I'll agree that he's a bit... trollish.

That's dressing it up about as nice as you can. :rolleyes:

bigkahuna - 3-11-2009 at 08:10 AM

I usually do solitary down winders so I don't have a lot of photos, but here's a still from a video my wife took a couple weeks ago. It was a small wave (about 4-5 foot), lightwind (about 15-20mph) day, but I had fun. That's my monster Waroo 20m I'm flying.

Picture 1.jpg - 84kB

cheezycheese - 3-11-2009 at 08:45 AM

guys, take it easy... argueing on the internet is like the special olympics....... no matter who wins you're still retarded!! :lol:

OK, please forgive me for that one. i couldn't resist- no offense to anyone :crazy:

BeamerBob - 3-11-2009 at 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheezycheese
guys, take it easy... argueing on the internet is like the special olympics....... no matter who wins you're still retarted!! :lol:

OK, please forgive me for that one. i couldn't resist- no offense to anyone :crazy:

Cheezy there must be a special message there when you spell "retarded" wrong. :embarrased::duh::D

cheezycheese - 3-11-2009 at 08:50 AM

oooops...:embarrased::embarrased:

i had nothing useful to contribute and was feeling left out...:saint:

Maven454 - 3-11-2009 at 09:01 AM

That's okay, he spelled arguing incorrectly as well :lol:

ragden - 3-11-2009 at 09:06 AM

Wow... this thread spun way off course...

Maven454 - 3-11-2009 at 09:07 AM

Yeah, after we answered his question (more or less), we just kinda stole it. I should start a new, more appropriately titled thread for the discussion.

cheezycheese - 3-11-2009 at 09:08 AM

boy, teach me to mind my own business why don't 'cha.....:embarrased:
let the arguing continue then...

Maven454 - 3-11-2009 at 09:13 AM

It's cool cheesy, we love ya anyway. If only for that ridiculously big, fluorescent pink, two line PL Peel.

lad - 3-11-2009 at 09:43 AM

I think the correct quote and attribution is to
Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog who once said:

“Criticizing these reporters is like booing at the Special Olympics.”

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 10:19 AM

OK!
Lazy mans kite skills was not ment as an insult. Just saying the fact the kite will goto zenith without help.

For one Carls skill are way beyond mine at this point and i admire him.

Bladerunner you have crossed the line. For your sake you better hope i dont run into you at any meets.
You havent like me since i came here. You just cant handle someone with a different opinion.

You have to sink so low as to insult my wife. Your nothing more then a piece of trash!

action jackson - 3-11-2009 at 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
OK!
Lazy mans kite skills was not ment as an insult. Just saying the fact the kite will goto zenith without help.

For one Carls skill are way beyond mine at this point and i admire him.

Bladerunner you have crossed the line. For your sake you better hope i dont run into you at any meets.
You havent like me since i came here. You just cant handle someone with a different opinion.

You have to sink so low as to insult my wife. Your nothing more then a piece of trash!

Hey snobre, you got your own thread! Why don't you just hang out there!.......aj

Image-AF67CC76A33811D9.jpg - 98kB

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 10:43 AM

Because now i really do have a reason to be ignorant!

Kamikuza - 3-11-2009 at 04:27 PM

Ok so better to let go the bar then yank on it and power up the kite again ... gotcha.

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Lazy mans kite skills

... so what's letting go of the bar on a bow kite when you get in trouble then eh? :lol:

...

Y'know, y'all are far too touchy and in need of some Insensitivity Training ...
"You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny"

macboy - 3-11-2009 at 04:32 PM

Mommy....I'm scared. What happened to this place?

Bladerunner - 3-11-2009 at 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Bladerunner you have crossed the line. For your sake you better hope i dont run into you at any meets.
You havent like me since i came here. You just cant handle someone with a different opinion.

You have to sink so low as to insult my wife. Your nothing more then a piece of trash!

Please don't think for a minute that I had anything to say about your wife. I don't even know the lady.

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 05:08 PM

Want to explain then? Your comments?

Maven454 - 3-11-2009 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner

Quote:

Please don't think for a minute that I had anything to say about your wife. I don't even know the lady.

Bladerunner, it may not be what you meant, but it was what your comment sounded like.

And guys, this is what the thread that I made was for. So that this discussion could be removed from the auto zenith thread.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=11438

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 05:09 PM

Kamikuza - 3-11-2009 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr

Ooh can I fill in the blanks?
"Well your wife is ugly and her mother dresses her funny and my daddy is a policeman"

Jeez come on people! :ticking:

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 06:10 PM

Lets get off Wifes as i just got off yours......

Fill in as you wish Kamikuza.

Quote:

... so what's letting go of the bar on a bow kite when you get in trouble then eh?

On a bow ,depending on which one, will depower almost completely and fall to the water/ground, then wait for you to do something or goto the edge of the window.
An ARC will "fly itself to zenith" if you let go of the bar.
Maybe Lazy mans power steering would have been a better way to put it? No?

bigkahuna - 3-11-2009 at 06:25 PM

I don't understand how a kite's flying tendency has anything to do with being lazy or not.

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 06:30 PM

It dosent! Dont take it so literally! Just means it will kinda fly itself if u let go.

Kamikuza - 3-11-2009 at 06:32 PM

I had to roll over twice, but I'm finally off your wife ... zing! :evil:

So what you're saying is, bows and arcs have lazy man's skills - just not the same skill set? :lol:

snobdr - 3-11-2009 at 08:18 PM

The bow has no skills.

Kamikuza - 3-11-2009 at 09:49 PM

Very zen :cool2: "If a kite falls in the ocean and no one is there to hear it - does it make a sound?"

Ok require then ... you're not a doctor of English are you? :wee: