Power Kite Forum - Foils Vs Inflatables

Foils Vs Inflatables

PaulGl - 15-11-2009 at 10:37 AM

Hi all. Am new to the forum & landboarding and would appreciate some advice. Currently am getting to grips with a Rage 3.5 on a flexifoil board which are great. Intention is to start kitesurfing next year too so am looking at an inflatable.

Question is what size of inflatable would typically equate to a 3.5m rage as I get the feeling that there is not 100% equivalency and i'd like to understand this before settling on a size. By understanding this I can then get a feel for the likely pull. Am 6ft and about 90Kg and would like an inflatable that is a step up from the 3.5 but could either work okay for me on the water or one of our kids

Thanks in advance

Paul

DenisLaMenace - 15-11-2009 at 10:54 AM

Hi Paul

welcome to PKF.

You can't just pick an inflatable that equals in term of power to your 3.5m rage. First you are trying to compare peaches and apples.

First LEIs use depower systems, so you need bigger size. Then foils tend to be more powerful per size, so again you need bigger. Riding on water takes bigger size in general than land or snow.

Also other factors to consider includes the average wind in your area, your skill level, your board (type and size), the water conditions (chops, waves, flat), and etc.

There are also different LEI types and shapes such as Bow, hybrid, C shape, Delta which all have different performances chateristics.

So there is no such conversion from landboarding with a small fixed bridle foil versus a LEI.

The best advice is to go with a lesson on the water if you can (for safety reasons, and speed up learning), Then your coach/teacher can help you pick the right gear for you (too many brands and models). Always best to hang out with other kitesurfers in your area if possible and see what they ride.

Here on PKF many kitesurfers also ride foils on water. I have been riding foils and LEIs on water. I tend now to prefer foils for the ride and lighter winds, and LEI for strong gusty and sh.tty winds.

what size ?? if you intend to ride a lot on water, then 2 or 3 kites will be needed. The average size for the average guy that tends to be most popular is 12m, but in strong winds a 9m will be best and in light winds you'll see a lot of 15-16m.

Bladerunner - 15-11-2009 at 12:50 PM

Do you have a local spot that you will go for the water ?
Can you hang out there and pick the locals brains about what is working for them ? Very often someone will have the right gear for sale because they are updating so you can avoid shipping +" try before you buy "!
Your best choice is to get at least 1 lesson in before buying. The instructor may be the best person to help you with the choice.

Kites of the same size can have very different power delivery depending on their shape + control systems.

You may want to go second hand for your 1st kite. You will crash a lot and so odds of wrecking it are up there.

Some people swear by the value of " auto zenith " that arcs offer for learning ? I know I struggled with the kite while trying to get in to my board and it slowed my progression a lot. The arcs forgiving nature definately helped me with my jumps.

The locals are your best bet but we can try to help you on here as well. Don't rush into this one and you will make a good choice.

Kamikuza - 15-11-2009 at 10:52 PM

Welcome to PKF!

I think get some lessons first, use their gear the borrow someone's LEI, bow/hybrid and arc and see what you like. I like arcs cos they're cheap and easy to fly ... each to their own.the

acampbell - 16-11-2009 at 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PaulGl

Question is what size of inflatable would typically equate to a 3.5m rage as I get the feeling that there is not 100% equivalency and i'd like to understand this before settling on a size.

Paul

This is hard because the comparison is not just "apples to oranges" but apples to elephants.

the best way to approach the question is to leave the Rage out of the equation and ask, "what is a good de-power kite that can be used for cross-over work (land and water)" .

By most accounts (but not all) the LEI's are left out of the mix for land use because the high pressure bladders are more vulnerable to damage on land.

That would leave the Peter Lynn ARC's/ Twinskins, the HQ Neo and the Flysurfers

I agree that the best way to approach this is with lessons, but bear in mind that many instructors tend to be LEI- centric which is OK, but ask you instructor if they are familiar with the other types so that they can advise you for cross-over work.

PaulGl - 16-11-2009 at 12:41 PM

Thanks guys, advice is appreciated. Certainly intended going down the Instruction route - just wanted to get a feel for things so thanks

Regards

Paul

snobdr - 16-11-2009 at 02:08 PM

LEIs are the best all around kite. They perform well everywhere. Dont let these guys shy you away from them. This forum tends to be biased against LEIS. They will work fine on land.

carltb - 16-11-2009 at 02:54 PM

lost interest

snobdr - 16-11-2009 at 02:56 PM

Loosing points carl. If you dont like my opinion dont read it.
I would say your post was more trollish then mine.

carltb - 16-11-2009 at 03:08 PM

lost interest

snobdr - 16-11-2009 at 05:15 PM

I say what i think and dont have to post in caps to get my point across. Other then a c kite all other LEIs are basicly the same with close to the same performance characteristics. Good low wind ability, good gust handeling, easy relaunch, easy setup, simple bridle, good high wind, good depower range, holds its shape, all around workhorse.
If i were on this forum posting the same about foils or arcs i wouldnt have heard one word from anyone. Because i ride inflatables i take the most abuse on here out of anyone. And you know what. I dont care. Dosent bother me one bit. And i will co tinue to voice my opinion, loud and clear for all to read. Ive had people u2u me and tell me that ive helped them and they feel the same about LEIs as i do.
Grow a set OK

carltb - 16-11-2009 at 05:40 PM

lost interest

snobdr - 16-11-2009 at 05:59 PM

In my quiver right now i have
7m best tempest, 9m caution answer, 11m best tempest, 12m north rebel,
13m ozone sport, 14m north rhino, 16m best bfk, 16m caution answer, 18m best bfk
21m best yarga
i said generally LEIs are the same just as peter lynn arcs are generally the same. As fixed bridal foils are generally the same......

snobdr - 16-11-2009 at 06:02 PM

Talk about trolling. Envoking me to respond then backing out.

Kamikuza - 16-11-2009 at 06:15 PM

lost interest = the lolz :lol:

I guess the infatos are fine on the land - so long as you don't crash into stuff. Perhaps for a more advanced pilot like yourself, they are great but for the newbs ... maybe no.

My score so far - holes in inflatuo LEI/SLE = 2 and rendered unusable for the rest of the day. Nose dived into the shore and hit a tree and the other dragged across the shore to relaunch holed on something.
Holes in foils or arcs = 0 ... well zero that I know about - they're all still flying anyway :lol:

In my limited experience of kitesurfing - that's a pretty horrific rate of let down ... luckily they were rentals :lol:

flyjump - 16-11-2009 at 06:19 PM

lol Rentals!!!!! I'm guessing you didn't have to pay for the damage

snobdr - 16-11-2009 at 06:21 PM

Ive seen foils have sells blown out in inexperenced hands.

Kamikuza - 16-11-2009 at 06:24 PM

Just talking about personal experience ... and I've heard a foil with a blown cell will still fly

I paid for the damage to one out of a sense of duty :lol:

cos it was a kind of friend doing me a favour loaning me a school kite when I wasn't really having a lesson ...

snobdr - 16-11-2009 at 06:39 PM

Ive seen a foil fly with a blown cell, and tear out 2 more cells. Ive flown the 11m with a strut bladder flat with no worries of more damage.

Kamikuza - 17-11-2009 at 12:05 AM

I think when people talk about LEIs deflating and ruining a day's kiting, we're talking about leading edges ...

snobdr - 17-11-2009 at 06:23 AM

Yea everytime a bladder goes flat its always the leading edge. None of the other bladders ever go flat. These bladders are so sensitive if you look at them wrong they go flat.

BeamerBob - 17-11-2009 at 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
LEIs are the best all around kite. They perform well everywhere. Dont let these guys shy you away from them. This forum tends to be biased against LEIS. They will work fine on land.

Snobdr, the issue isn't that you prefer LEIs. It is that you state your opinion as if it were fact. Go back and read Angus's post and see how balanced it is without getting opinions involved. You say LEIs are best, but that isn't an objective statement and many others would disagree with you. State why you like LEIs without putting other equipment down (Again, go look at Angus's post for a how to). I promised myself I would just ignore you from now on when you do your troll move every time this stuff comes up, but I failed miserably.

flyjump - 17-11-2009 at 11:49 AM

If you like really snappy power, then you lean towards LEI. They can be a beast and aren't as quite as forfiving as foil de-power kites. The power boost from them can be intense though. Kite loops are probably easier on LEI's but i've never done one while riding so i guess i can't really comment on that aspect.

Closed foil kites such as flysurfers and peter lynns are nice on land because they tend to be a little bit more forgiving while learning and beyond. They have a smoother power build up and aren't quite as snappy (insane power though). They have really good float down compared to LEIs. I"m not saying that LEIs drop you like a rock either. Plus some brands of closed foils such as Peter Lynn have the autozenith which makes learning how to ride a little bit easier and quicker because you focus on riding and not so much about your kite/equipment.

I've ridden both styles on land. Both can take you fast and high, but it's more of your preference
Hope that is helpful

_thephantom_ - 17-11-2009 at 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carltb
lost interest

as a Peter Lynn Team rider i was expecting perhaps a more enlightened post to help the newbie. Or, sometimes its just best to say nothing if you have nothing to say.

For me, if i had my time over again, i would definitely concentrate on inflatables.
They perform incredibly well, safe, user friendly, the most popular, therefore there are always people around who can help you. [foils are sometimes a bit of a struggle for the SLE/LEI users].

This said as a person who has both foils and inflatables and has the luxury to afford both. I can choose when to use them under what conditions and circumstances.

If you budget is limited then stick with inflatables, they will not generally disappoint.

To actually answer the question, I am teaching my daughter who is nine on an old slingshot fuel 9metre, but on 5metre lines which is a blast and very safe.

If you purchase or seek out the method kite teaching material, it will do a good job on explaing line lengths and safety.

f0rgiv3n - 17-11-2009 at 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by _thephantom_

Quote:

Originally posted by carltb
lost interest

as a Peter Lynn Team rider i was expecting perhaps a more enlightened post to help the newbie. Or, sometimes its just best to say nothing if you have nothing to say.

He wasn't saying he lost interest in the question... it's a matter of not opening yet another snobdr brand can of worms...

carltb - 17-11-2009 at 01:33 PM

If paul needs any advice from me then i will gladly give it to him via u2u. im not going to get drawn into another silly conversation with "the snob". ive heard all that hes got to say over and over again an it just bores me now

kteguru - 17-11-2009 at 02:09 PM

Not to move this off topic more than it already is but I feel compelled to put in my 2 cents. I've been in this sport for more than 15 years now and have been to all the forums etc. etc.. When opinions and advice turns into a pissing match for whatever reason we're only doing a dis-service to ourselves. Promote the sport, try to give helpful advice, promote safety as much as can be expected but END IT with the bantering sh_t. It benefits no one. It would certainly be nice if there was less crap to be had on the forums since I hate trudging through it but more importantly those new and old alike will more likely participate due to a better forum environment. Forums have the opportunity to be a great resource for new people and pro's alike. Few participate in it though for this very reason. Myself included.

Ride hard
Good winds
Dean

snobdr - 17-11-2009 at 02:49 PM

Whatever if i stated that ARCs were the best all around kite probably more then half of you would agree with me.

Carl baits me then backs out "lost interest" Then why bait me.

I post my opinion and get attacked.

What a Joke.

Kamikuza - 17-11-2009 at 06:23 PM

Nah I wouldn't agree you :lol:

And you know what - you don't have to take the bait :D

snobdr - 17-11-2009 at 07:22 PM

When im attacked i respond.

f0rgiv3n - 17-11-2009 at 09:40 PM

Lol... anyways PaulGL. Welcome!! Sorry that there was an argument in your thread!!! as you can see, it's a hot topic

Kamikuza - 17-11-2009 at 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
When im attacked i respond.

But you don't have to - it's your choice ... someone expressing an opinion that differs to yours is not an attack unless YOU interpret it that way and then you have to accept the consequences of rising to the bait. You can't cry foul if you jump on comments people make, then they refuse to play!
Me, I can do this all day :lol:

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 05:57 AM

It was an attack but since he removed all of his posts you can not see that.

Kamikuza - 18-11-2009 at 06:07 AM

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 06:35 AM

Thats funny as i posted that same line and everyone flipped out and i got a warning. I think this forum should heed choppers advice

Bladerunner - 18-11-2009 at 07:21 AM

To quote YOU SNOB when you gave me the same treatment you so hate after I answered your repeated baiting.

WHATEVER !!!!!!!!!

Way to kill the thrill for yet another beginer ! :duh:

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 08:57 AM

As i said you should all heed some of Choppers advice.

action jackson - 18-11-2009 at 09:31 AM

Are you enjoying killing a community? Its getting real old, quick. Yes you had people coming to your defense but I am sure they are getting tired of it quickly too................aj

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 10:16 AM

No the people who came to my defence know me. They know that that way people on this forum react is a big joke. Everyone take a chill. Its typing on a computer, no reason to fly off the handle. I help as many people on here as the rest of you. You just cant take that im proud of what i ride and voice my opinion as such. If i rode arcs or foils it would be a non issue. I could say they were the best in the world and no one would say any different.

BeamerBob - 18-11-2009 at 10:39 AM

Quote:

snob, your issue is not starting your post with "I think". Then skip the part where you dismiss everyone else on the forum. If you could come down from your tower where you think you are the only enlightened one on the forum, it would be great for you to add some depth to the forum as a proponent of LEIs. Just stick to sharing your experiences, and the attributes of LEIs that you like and why. I personally LOVE information like that. I would consider getting an LEI someday when my skills increase but nothing you've ever said about them helps me understand why you like them. If you are such a nice guy on the beach with other guys, how can you be such an a$$ here on the forum? If you said the exact words face to face with me standing on the beach, I would take exception there as well. Get the chip off your shoulder, quit putting the rest of us down and add something to the forum instead of thinking you have to "fight the fight" everytime you post. I've seen some great posts from you its just posts like I quoted that start these flame wars here. These didn't exist here before you except for the old FISLY rules issues. Think about that.

carltb - 18-11-2009 at 10:47 AM

yea BB that was the post that wound me up too.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SARCASM ALERT<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

we all know arcs are the only kite in the world and if you dont fly them then you are an idiot and should be removed from the gene pool.

can of worms.jpg - 16kB

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 11:00 AM

Saying people on this forum are biased against LEIs is not a put down.

BeamerBob - 18-11-2009 at 11:10 AM

no, not by itself. But coming right after you say LEI's are best changes the way it reads. "I've found", "I think", "You might find", "others have observed". These are some ways to indicate your opinion without picking a fight and offending the others that don't have the same views. Your opinions could be valued and appreciated here, but just because some don't have the same bias as you doesn't make them any more wrong than you are for having your LEI bias. Can't we all just get along and be friends? They are all kites and we love flying them. Let's go with that.

carltb - 18-11-2009 at 11:46 AM

the only way to know what kite is right for you is to fly as many different kites as possible. i have been lucky to fly most kites from all different styles and for all the disciplines, fixed bridals, lei's, sle's, hybrids, depower foils and arcs. but for what i do and the way i ride, i have found that arcs and in particular the synergy and phantom, have been the kites that have helped me get what i want from this sport. i enjoyed flying these kites so much that i actually sort sponsorship from the manufacturer as i believed in the product so much. if people see me at the beach or on video and like my style then i have no problem with recommending these kites, but i an not a salesman and would not tell anybody to parts with their money until they find the kite that is right for them.
i dont only landboard. i buggy, surf and snowkite aswell so i think my knowledge of the different discipline is based on fact and not just guess work

domdino - 18-11-2009 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carltb
the only way to know what kite is right for you is to fly as many different kites as possible. i have been lucky to fly most kites from all different styles and for all the disciplines, fixed bridals, lei's, sle's, hybrids, depower foils and arcs. but for what i do and the way i ride, i have found that arcs and in particular the synergy and phantom, have been the kites that have helped me get what i want from this sport. i enjoyed flying these kites so much that i actually sort sponsorship from the manufacturer as i believed in the product so much. if people see me at the beach or on video and like my style then i have no problem with recommending these kites, but i an not a salesman and would not tell anybody to parts with their money until they find the kite that is right for them.
i dont only landboard. i buggy, surf and snowkite aswell so i think my knowledge of the different discipline is based on fact and not just guess work

Well said

I personally can't ride Arcs on the water, but i think they are one of the best landboarding kites i've used (i landboarded for 4 years in England before moving to california, using guerillas/venoms/frenzys)

Having started on foils it made me appreciate LEIs and then eventually return to foils again for the water. Friends who have only ever ridden LEIs don't get on well at all with flysurfers, yet they see me out there seemingly having a great time, so it's really just all about what you're used to.

All kites are great, there is no way to do a Foils VS Inflatables debate for me anymore because you just end up stuck...

Here's what i think having very extensively ridden both Foils and Inflatables on water since 2006.

Modern Inflatables:
1. Slightly faster turning for size
2. Slightly more stable that closed cell foils, (about the same with peter lynns but without the autozenith)
3. Nicer if you're totally screwed and need a flotation device. (i've never needed personally, but the idea is nice)
4. You don't get treated like a freak.

Modern Foils:
1. Much much much faster pack up and unpacking times. Takes me about 3 minutes from opening bag to being on the water.
2. Much smaller, easier to travel with, no pumps.
3. I personally think they jump easier/higher and HANGTIME is definitely better.
4. You get treated like a freak.

Equals:
1. relaunch is equal for me (apart from C-Kites which i find harder)

DenisLaMenace - 18-11-2009 at 01:21 PM

googling "foil versus inflatables" reports more than half millions links, and yet the debate has still not been resolved.

there is no ONE better kite, but different ones that fits different needs.

even among LEIs they are too many differences.

for me, some are good and some are not at all.

But as a kitesurfer/snowkiter who rides both LEIs' and foil, the ones I have much enjoyed to OWN are still Flysurfers, even if in some conditions one of my LEI fits better my need.

kiteNH - 18-11-2009 at 01:29 PM

The funny thing is that the original poster didn't even ask about foils vs. inflatables (even though that's what he titled his post) for kite surfing. He just wanted to know what size LEI would be equivalent in power to his 3.5m rage. His questions were all answered and the thread was ready to fade on down the list and then.....well you know.

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 02:34 PM

Yea then someone posted

"By most accounts (but not all) the LEI's are left out of the mix for land use because the high pressure bladders are more vulnerable to damage on land."

By most accounts??? 90% of the kiters in my area also ride LEIs on snow. And i would venture to say that at least 75% of kiters that use LEIs on water also yous them on land if the ride land.

Quote:

If i rode arcs or foils it would be a non issue. I could say they were the best in the world and no one would say any different

Funny how no one refutes this statment.

awindofchange - 18-11-2009 at 03:43 PM

Well Snobdr, because nobody seems to refute your above statement on this particular forum, you may find it best by moving over to Kiteforum.com where there are so many other users there that share you love affair with the LEI kites and blatant hatred of foils.

f0rgiv3n - 18-11-2009 at 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Yea then someone posted

"By most accounts (but not all) the LEI's are left out of the mix for land use because the high pressure bladders are more vulnerable to damage on land."

By most accounts??? 90% of the kiters in my area also ride LEIs on snow. And i would venture to say that at least 75% of kiters that use LEIs on water also yous them on land if the ride land.

Quote:

If i rode arcs or foils it would be a non issue. I could say they were the best in the world and no one would say any different

Funny how no one refutes this statment.

Now you're just getting annoying.

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 04:06 PM

LOL

carltb - 18-11-2009 at 04:08 PM

jog on

Bladerunner - 18-11-2009 at 05:22 PM

I'm still waiting for ONE person to stand up for your skills other than you ?

Your Friends say you are a Dip online even if you are O.K. on the Beach NO ONE said this guy has skills that match his mouth ? No one has even said you have skills. I have never seen anything to make me respect you ?
:rolleyes:

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 05:31 PM

I dont care if you respect me or not. I have no respect for you blade.

carltb - 18-11-2009 at 05:34 PM

do i take it that you are just a keyboard kiter then.

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 05:36 PM

Must be if no one has seen me ride.

acampbell - 18-11-2009 at 05:37 PM

I feel badly for PaulGl

This thread has become so toxic. I have stayed away for days but checked back in when I saw Ken just jump on. Can't we all just walk away and stop feeding the trolls? Carl, you have been sucker punched; let's leave it.

I know it's like a train wreck and you want to look, but it's better to walk away instead of post. (well here I am, but I hope you know what I mean)

I don't want to see this forum get hosed and drive away members.

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 05:42 PM

LOL

Bladerunner - 18-11-2009 at 05:48 PM

Sorry ALL,

I keep promising not to go there . Then I do ? It's like an OCD ? :embarrased:

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 05:50 PM

You brought this all on yourselfs.

Bladerunner - 18-11-2009 at 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
Do you have a local spot that you will go for the water ?
Can you hang out there and pick the locals brains about what is working for them ? Very often someone will have the right gear for sale because they are updating so you can avoid shipping +" try before you buy "!
Your best choice is to get at least 1 lesson in before buying. The instructor may be the best person to help you with the choice.

Kites of the same size can have very different power delivery depending on their shape + control systems.

You may want to go second hand for your 1st kite. You will crash a lot and so odds of wrecking it are up there.

Some people swear by the value of " auto zenith " that arcs offer for learning ? I know I struggled with the kite while trying to get in to my board and it slowed my progression a lot. The arcs forgiving nature definately helped me with my jumps.

The locals are your best bet but we can try to help you on here as well. Don't rush into this one and you will make a good choice.

???????

Kamikuza - 18-11-2009 at 06:16 PM

[img]http://www.post#@%$#!.biz/albums/userpics/11553/lostinterest_2.jpg[/img]

brplatz - 18-11-2009 at 07:14 PM

Kami, your sig is the greatest. :lol:

Simply a fact

Brian

snobdr - 18-11-2009 at 07:22 PM

LOL

Once again making my point.

f0rgiv3n - 18-11-2009 at 08:04 PM

hey snobdr... it seems like u always need the last word....

LAST WORD.

(hehe, i win).

Kamikuza - 18-11-2009 at 08:33 PM

Last!!!

f0rgiv3n - 18-11-2009 at 09:17 PM

damn you!!!!

(last)

Kamikuza - 18-11-2009 at 11:55 PM

Last plus inifinty plus 1 :bigok:

pkf - 19-11-2009 at 01:25 AM

I don't often say things like this but I am rather disappointed in those who have participated in this tit-for-tat bickering. It is clearly stated in our rules and previous threads that the best way of dealing with forum abuse is to report the post (report button located at top-right of each post) and allow the site admins to address the issue in accordance to our forum rules. These self-serving arguments are a huge turnoff for those seeking information and support. My apologies to PaulGl and others who have had their threads hijacked in such a manner.

We are an intelligent community. Let's try to address opposing opinion with constructive feedback. Let's deal with trolling by clicking the report button.