Power Kite Forum - Controlled Hanging

Controlled Hanging

Stan-TheMan - 17-11-2009 at 05:09 AM

No joke, I'm a 60 year old who'd like to learn how to master getting controlled air/hang time. :wee: I can't do the spins, toe-touches on the landboards, or hit the waves in 20 mph gusts, and I can't lift buggies out of vehicles like you younger aces, but I'm asking for anyone who has mastered the controlled glide to help me get started. I've seen the Synergy 15m video of a fellow doing exactly what I'd like to learn to do, though I envy those who can do more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuoCZZkiqRw&feature=relat...

Of course, at my age, I'm not exactly wanting to break body parts, thank you. Can anyone offer any suggestions on how to get started with this. The largest kite I currently own is a Beamer IV 4m. If you think this is a major accident looking to happen, please let me know that, too.

I'm not near a beach, so soft sand is not an option. Just green grass and flat landscape. I might be able to find water, but we're talking cold, and that's not fun for me. I'd do the hang-glide thing, but a lot of those people hit the ground hard, and that's not fun, either.

Thanks very much, to all, in advance.

power - 17-11-2009 at 05:16 AM

You might want to look into paragliding.

flyjump - 17-11-2009 at 06:48 AM

A 4m Beamer isn't going to give you floaty jumps. It is a good kite to start practicing with. Kite jumping is fun, and "can" be safe but you need experience and the right equipment to do so. There is a video somewhere of a guy who got lifted 40 feet into the air with a 5 meter kite. He came down hard and broke his hip and punctured his lung. I'll find it and post it when I get home. Just know that there is lots of risk. Is there anybody you can fly with that likes to kite jump? Try and find some local kiters an get advice and watch them (if there are any locals anyway) do lots of research and talk to as many kiters as possible. It's not a good idea to rush into jumping, because if you jump there will be those times where you could crash hard. I wouldn't advise it at your age, but I don't know you an your abilities. Be safe. And reasearch!

brplatz - 17-11-2009 at 06:59 AM

I went from a 3m HQ Beamer to a 4.1m PL Twister II, which gave me some jumps, but not floaty as you suggest.

Now I recently got a Synergy 15m, same as the video, and my jumps are smooth and soft. Some people may say this jump was too much; But I find that the 15m Syn has plenty of depower to get me through interesting situations.

Also I'm 18 and 140lbs :lol:

Brian

Bladerunner - 17-11-2009 at 07:23 AM

This guy is dune soaring.

Taking advntage of the rising wind above the dunes. That + the ground dropping away are what give him added time.

Any place with a natural updraft like that will work.

Are you near water ? Big safe jumps are easiest on old bones in water.

PHREERIDER - 17-11-2009 at 07:48 AM

core strength to remove a buggy from a vehicle is high but controlling a jump or air is higher

dylanj423 - 17-11-2009 at 09:14 AM

ditto for paragliding... i think that would be more what you are after than kiting

Reply

Stan-TheMan - 18-11-2009 at 04:57 AM

I very much appreciated the comments, thus far. This fellow is doing a risky extreme version of what I'd like to do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzOCEDm73tM&feature=fvw

What kind of kite is this fellow flying? And his bar? His bar assembly looks clean.

I'm grateful for the cautions and hints on how and how not to proceed from all.

I checked out paragliding YouTubes. I sized it up as one definitely having to know how to keep lift in the billows or it's 'good night'. And even lift doesn't guarantee one's tush will land softly or not on someone's fence post, or maybe a tree. Some of those dudes really get into dangerous scenes, and canopies seem to be able to fail any time. Too high up for me at this stage of my life.

I'm just interested in land skimming or floating a couple of feet up. I agree, water is best for bones, but the water is not easily accessible or practical for me. I'll just watch the parasailers do their thing. Perhaps a rolling hill golf course may do the trick. The dunes are a good suggestion, too. Motor assist is nice, but too loud for me. I think gentle [rolling hill] slope will be my choice.

Bladerunner, you look cool on your wheels -- something I'd like to try if they work on grass. Thanks, too, for describing the lift factor of the dunes. I've flown RC gliders and know of such lift, and the downside of turning with the wind. Maybe a Synergy 15m or 19m is my aim? [thx brplatz] Or a Neo? I've heard Synergy 15m's are being discontinued. Regardless I'm going to have to try the the depower.

I'm 205 lbs, so I could lose some to help out the situation or I may leave craters. Again, good input -- thanks to everyone.

carltb - 18-11-2009 at 05:08 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3MtHy-v3ZE

bobalooie57 - 18-11-2009 at 06:57 AM

Hey Stan, great to hear you are going into this venture with thought and research. I think if you've been flying that Beamer regularly, you are probably stronger than you realise, and strength here is the key. You need those strong muscles to take up the shock of landing, especially when it is not as floaty as you would like. I say all this without having the experience of purposefully(?) jumping with my kites,(caught some air "accidentally" a time or three). I don't think I've progressed that far yet, in my 2 yrs. of powerkiting. (I don't have any really lifty kites, and I'm 52) I know I'm now in much better shape than when I started this, and 50 lbs lighter too, and jumping, especially in the snow, will happen when I get my board skills down a bit better(and a lifty kite or two). The guy that got me in to this sport is 58 or 59, has been snowkiting for 9 years now, and is nuts about getting air with his bigger Frenzy's and Manta's, so conditioning, not age, is the biggest factor here. Heck, I met an 84 yr. old guy out on skis with his kite last winter. He wasn't getting air, but was cruising along at a respectable clip!

Bladerunner - 18-11-2009 at 07:30 AM

I'm too busy to lnk you but maybe you should search Speed kiting or something. It is a cross between paraglide and snowkiting.
someone post the Eiger speed kiting link and hook this Dude !

bobalooie57 - 18-11-2009 at 07:50 AM

Stan, the 2nd vid you posted was Alex Petersen, flying a Best LEI. That cliff soaring looks kind of scary, but the wind was a steady BFT 4-5, onshore, so the chance for a lull was minimal. Wouldn't even think of trying something like that with inland winds.

WolfWolfee - 18-11-2009 at 01:19 PM

Well being in the advanced ages of life, I too am an air freak. Nothing better than sailing across the ground in the buggy getting every little ounce of power out of the wind. I now use mostly Pl's, Scorpion 16M and a 18M Guerilla. The Scorpion might be too much for you but the Guerilla is an amazing gentle giant with incredible float. I recently had my nephew just hovering above my head for over a minute(he swears it was 2 or 3..lol). Start off learning to do bunny hops, learn about feet placement on landing and how to transfer the downward motion into forward movement. First thing is to gear up, I use a 661 body armor suit, bomber shorts and full length leg protection and of course a helmet. I am on my second set of 661 gear, hit so hard one time literally tore the one arm right off and walked away from it but shaken up pretty good. IM me and we can talk about bunny hops.

macboy - 18-11-2009 at 02:10 PM

macboy - 18-11-2009 at 02:14 PM

cheezycheese - 18-11-2009 at 02:29 PM

Speed Gliding is Hooj.... :Ange09::Ange09::Ange09:

Bladerunner - 18-11-2009 at 06:04 PM

Alex is an accomplished Paraglider and kiter. He has skills that we won't ever get at 50 and 60 years old.

He is one of my Heros though !

Here is the Eiger Vid.

Watch it full screen up close !!!!!!!:wow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut1kGmOhzWQ

macboy - 18-11-2009 at 09:50 PM

THAT'S the one Bladerunner! Amazing.......you think you could get away with stuff like that at Whistler/Sunshine etc.?

Now, Can anyone remember that vid of the dude in the dunes with the Flysurfer - the one where he sets up the camera and then seems to take forever to "walk" away from the camera to the top of the far dune and then takes flight?

Another Question re Low Level Dune Gliding

Stan-TheMan - 19-11-2009 at 12:10 AM

Okay,... another puzzling question for y'all... if low-level dune skimming/soaring/jumping is the goal, which foil/sail system is the more efficient??? Is it better to use a kite, parakite, paraglider, parafoil, parasail, parashoes, or what... from mound height??? Height of the flight at any given time [for my purposes] not to exceed about 3 feet to max ground impact potential.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxUT3pwc_n4&feature=fvsr

What system offers the easiest controlled launch and low level soar, with maximum control and safety (max lift, min stall/collapse/c & b [crash & burn]...) It seems there is a fine line between a kite, paraglider, parasail, and the other relative terms.

:Ange09:

...A passing thought when writing this -- is there some kite/soaring/flight dictionary available to help us all agree on the various equipment terms? Would creating one make a helpful post? [I authored an onsight dictionary of terms for RC flyers which consisted of input from many experienced flyers, like you.]

bobalooie57 - 19-11-2009 at 05:54 AM

If you read Stan's posts closely, I think he's probably not looking to do any speed gliding, more like a controlled hover. The only problem I have with this is a kite lifty enough to allow hovering 3 feet off the ground likely will have lift enough to pick you up and slam you in a gust. So the best question I can come up with is, how are your winds, Stan? Are they clean and steady, like onshore, or gusty and bumpy inland winds?

lad - 19-11-2009 at 06:25 AM

I'm not ~quite 60 yet :cool2: but still getting quite breakable. I'd like to try more of the beach hang time stuff too (but all the dunes around here are fenced off). Paragliding and hang gliding is a little more expensive and involved than I'd want to go for at this time.

The most affordable option is a larger arc kite - the earlier ones would do since you're after stability more than speed. The other hang-time vids I've seen use Flysurfers or tube kites.

On anything harder than soft sand, you'll need reinforcements, wraps and padding. I have several kinds of sorbothane ("impact gel") insoles, high-top shoes, and even bought some surplus paratrooper ankle support braces off eBay. You might want to wrap your knees for better support as well as wear hard-shelled pads on the outside.

And remember, all the padding in the world doesn't prevent injury if you land wrong or get pulled enough to twist, bend or torque your limbs. just ask me- I'm still limping a little from a month ago! :sniff:

Now, just to feel better, I'm posting my dream video for the umpteenth time!

BigMikesKites - 19-11-2009 at 06:38 AM

To answer the wind question, Stan and I fly together....We live in the Dallas area. Winds are inland, sometimes gusty depending on where we fly. There are areas near lakes we can fly to get fairly clean air.....or on those lakes if he goes with a water capable kite.

My fairest assumption of our conversations is he really wants the 'airborne' feeling. That feeling can come with a few inches to a foot off the ground and I think he would be happy....chime in Stan if I'm wrong. I know his wife would be happy with the limited height :yes:

Long float times skimming just above the surface would be ideal.

To accomplish this, I'm not sure if a 12m arc would fit the bill or would he need to go smaller or even bigger? Hes' at 205 medium build and in pretty good shape.

Winds during the summer months (Jun-Sep) are 5-10 usually and winter 8-17 on a guestimated average from experience.

I couldn't give him all his answers with my limited arc experience, so I sent him here to you guys. Great input so far by the way. Thanks

Bladerunner - 19-11-2009 at 07:30 AM

The Paragliders do exacty what you describe as their ground handling practice.

I haven't seen a single bad thing happen with 100's of hours flying around them as the " Kite " there paraglider.

It almost sounds like you want a Paraglider. You can get one used pretty cheap but it won't be one you want to use to do a true paragliding flight.

macboy - 19-11-2009 at 10:04 AM

Found it (but it's really not the intended use of these things ; )

And another:

All in all I'd agree with BR - a paraglider training canopy would be the ticket. I'd be willing to bet that you'd be looking at about the same cost to go that route as you would to pick up a big kite to play with? Might be a bit cheaper on the kite side but just because the used market is probably larger.

Now...tell me more about these "parashoes"? :lol:

Emotional Conflict...

Stan-TheMan - 19-11-2009 at 01:07 PM

Posting for the benefit of lost souls pondering similar ideas, or just taking pity... My problem is that Texas is a lot of private land -- flat, hard ground, with a lot of snakes and wild hogs. I want to keep my tush close enough to the ground to minimize impact and maximize control to stay within Texas.

Kites offer the ability to fly whenever and wherever there's wind. The gliding canopy, on-the-other-hand, would seem to require more specialized conditions, such as slopes, to even consider having any fun. Who actually goes to their local flat park to fly their gliding canopy? How many Texas parks have gentle slopes? Haven't seen any, yet. A primary fact to live for, the farther out I truck, the greater wait on medical if I should need it. Sorry, Aces, but the older one gets, the more important that factor becomes.

Mixed emotions and fused...

Stan:megan:

WELDNGOD - 19-11-2009 at 03:47 PM

Stan,I think what the guys are sayin is ..... There is not a kite out there that can pick you up and just hover. it's not that easy. And A kite that can pick you up like that ,can and will hurt you eventually.
Is there anyone here that can say they have not been taught a lesson or two.
At 60 ,lessons will probably come at high cost. I'm not sure you can handle that,remember you can't get a 50 lb. buggy out of a vehicle.

doneski - 19-11-2009 at 04:50 PM

For the best in hanging out at low altitude, check this out. Paragliding over dunes in France.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_-CpO2uZ2I

Trying to Avoid the Slam-Bam in TX

Stan-TheMan - 19-11-2009 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bobalooie57
If you read Stan's posts closely, I think he's probably not looking to do any speed gliding, more like a controlled hover. The only problem I have with this is a kite lifty enough to allow hovering 3 feet off the ground likely will have lift enough to pick you up and slam you in a gust. So the best question I can come up with is, how are your winds, Stan? Are they clean and steady, like onshore, or gusty and bumpy inland winds?

*****************************
Nice accurate description of my intent, Bob. You're right, I'm not out for speed gliding. The "controlled hover" is one accurate term for my goal. Height and speed are not in the picture.

In answer to your question, I have to say, when we get winds in excess of about 7 or 8 mph, they typically include unpredictable gusts up to about 15 mph, or even more. I would want to tie myself to a tree as a climber being belayed, especially in gusty wind.

Questions:
1. Can a training paraglider canopy be flown as a kite if necessary?
2. What wind speed does the typical paraglider have to attain over its canopy to assume flight for a 200-lb man?
3. How much area does the typical canopy occupy in comparison to a kite? 15m? 20m? More?

-- Stan

Stan-TheMan - 19-11-2009 at 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akulakat
To answer the wind question, Stan and I fly together....We live in the Dallas area. Winds are inland, sometimes gusty depending on where we fly. There are areas near lakes we can fly to get fairly clean air.....or on those lakes if he goes with a water capable kite.

My fairest assumption of our conversations is he really wants the 'airborne' feeling. That feeling can come with a few inches to a foot off the ground and I think he would be happy....chime in Stan if I'm wrong. I know his wife would be happy with the limited height :yes:

*********************

I couldn't have said it better, Mike. Thanks. Thanks, too, for saying I'm a medium build. You're too kind.

I have to add my thanks to Mike for putting me onto this website. So far, everyone has been very helpful and friendly. My sincere thanks to Mike and all of you who have contributed. I have to add that if it wasn't for Mike offering demo flights, I wouldn't have the experience to be inquiring about air time or would I be flying the kites I am. I've received, and continue to receive a great deal of enjoyment from kite flying. It's a great way for me to keep calories off, too.

PHREERIDER - 19-11-2009 at 07:09 PM

considerable power is needed by canopy size or wind speed or apparent speed .

sustained lift in low wind under 10mph with out the benefit of elevation ?

thats a lot of energy .

with out exposure to high wind or speed ? tough folks for a kite and the balance and strength to control a huge low wind beast would be feat for sure . just to get it going with a few jumps, the effort would be huge without wind or elevation, wow. a couple laps with a 24m something would be an Olympic effort for a 3sec. hop. after 20mins. thats about the time you become exhausted and get hurt.

sustained floats... best i have done on a flat beach , maybe 10sec a foot or two high , venom 16 in 35mph + tedious indeed, NOT recommended this was farting around during a water session.
paragliding maybe be more the ticket , but piloting with a powered unit still has risk and some serious physical demands .

Reply to WELDNGOD

Stan-TheMan - 19-11-2009 at 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD
Stan,I think what the guys are sayin is ..... There is not a kite out there that can pick you up and just hover. it's not that easy. And A kite that can pick you up like that ,can and will hurt you eventually.
Is there anyone here that can say they have not been taught a lesson or two.
At 60 ,lessons will probably come at high cost. I'm not sure you can handle that,remember you can't get a 50 lb. buggy out of a vehicle.

*******************
I always welcome cautionary reasoning and logic to challenge my thinking about this endeavor as you've stated. Let me say that I'm approaching kite flying and all flying with the concept of JuJitsu. You're probably familiar with that martial art's strategy which is to use the opponent's own energy against himself or herself. That's how I'm approaching this endeavor. I can lift 50-lbs, but I know that since I'm older, the risk factor of pulling muscles or getting a hernia is that much more, so I'm choosing to avoid the excessive strains of labor that are known to likely cause injury, and I'm choosing to let the wind do the work when possible, or I'll find some alternative.

Buggying, as I see it, requires a lot of space and having the kite at odd angles (angles of strain) to the driver-pilot. To keep injury out of consideration from awkward pulling, I don't want to subject myself to excessive odd-angle straining, so I'd have to buggy according to the restrictions I've established for myself.

I am looking for the kite to do my lifting for me, and I believe this is possible. The Synergy 15m appears to be such a kite, and I've been told a Guerilla is much the same. I know better than to try to maintain a wrestling match with a gusty wind in any kite over 3m simply because I'm going to lose in a short time. I would rather fly a smaller kite, say a 2m, in a high wind than try to fly a larger kite and have to quit early. I get more flight time that way. A lot of younger Aces go for the maximum muscle power they can use... I prefer sustaining the fun over a longer period of time by limiting my exertion.

The times when I've had any close calls is when I've known the wind to be excessive, as I'm sure most of us have done at different times. Younger guys and gals tend to get headstrong and try what they shouldn't, and that's how people get into trouble. Yes, I'm human, too, and that's how I know these things. In my approach to air, I do not want to assume questionable conditions -- not saying I wouldn't be tempted at various times, but it's my objective to try to avoid such risk. I think that can be done. Balloonists have a way of knowing when their conditions are right for their flying. The successful hang-gliders know their limitations, too. I think prudence in any activity is a matter of personal determination, skill, and self-discipline. In my reasoning, there's no reason why we kite flyers and paragliders can't exercise the same restraints as [the] more disciplined characters.

I am grateful for your input and open to any rebuttal.

Video that Hits the Nail

Stan-TheMan - 19-11-2009 at 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by doneski
For the best in hanging out at low altitude, check this out. Paragliding over dunes in France.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_-CpO2uZ2I

**************
My very sincere thanks for this video. You've hit the nail. This is exactly what I'm hoping to do. Now I just have to make it happen. Again, thank you very much!!!!

I will use this video to communicate to others what I'm striving to do. Now you're famous!

Bladerunner - 19-11-2009 at 08:06 PM

I think you are part right. With my 15m Synergy I can just stand there , swing it from 11 to 2 and back. Pull in the bar and I'm up for a nice float but it includes a good downwind ride most often. It means a relatively safe running landing but is potentialy dangerous.

I still tend to think you would get that gentle float with less potential for it to all go wrong kiting a paraglider ? When training these folks run upwind and leap up using a park bench. The combo can give them 5 ++ seconds of free float ! :Ange09:

stetson05 - 19-11-2009 at 09:18 PM

I have a paraglider and several kites. When the winds are low enough to kite the paraglider it produces some very safe lift. I don't know if the pic will work but flying in 8mph or less I could lift my feet up and hang for a few second in the park near my house. I don't remember how windy it was but I think maybe around 5mph. I think if you are going to do this you will need a large kite and low wind. Higher winds with smaller kites to me seem like they might be too much danger. Good Luck!

This was like doing a pull up and I floated down after about 2 seconds

doneski - 20-11-2009 at 08:42 AM

More fun stuff for Stan the Man:
More para dune flying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_snguy_cu4
Paraglider used as snow kite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Dt-TSlv80
Ozone para video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33nP5Rm0cu8&feature=relat...

cheezycheese - 20-11-2009 at 08:59 AM

any idea on how much one of those para-gliding rigs costs...? looks like something i'd like to try as well..?

Bladerunner - 20-11-2009 at 05:29 PM

I came to thinking today that depending on where you are in Texas you may not have the nice smooth winds that you absolutely NEED to pull off the kind of stuff you want !

Inland winds aren't usually smooth and can really screw you . :bouncing:

Back to the Synergy ! :dunno:

If you shop around and find one , a non flyable ( repaired ) paraglider can be pretty cheap. Flyable ones .... not so much !

stetson05 - 21-11-2009 at 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheezycheese
any idea on how much one of those para-gliding rigs costs...? looks like something i'd like to try as well..?

Sorry, I walked into a special deal and don't know what one would normaly cost. BR is right and try and get a repaired one but don't jump off a building with it.:o I think I have seen them on ebay new for about $3500

Stan-TheMan - 21-11-2009 at 12:01 PM

I have recently replied privately to two cherished colleagues who have offered their honesty for my benefit regarding my enigma of hanging air via kiting vs. paragliding. All of your opinions have meant a great deal to me. I thought I would post my current reflections to what has been offered thus far to open these points up for discussion.

I sincerely hope no one will be offended by a differing opinion, as it is not, or ever will be my intent, to embarrass anyone or put anyone down. I would hope we are all are here to learn. It is my belief the better input will prevail and we all benefit. I credit those pilots who are willing to assume high risk as most of do during our youthful days, but as we all gain experience, we typically yield at some point to the saying, "The more we play, we pay."

[Beginning]
I've been weighing some other realisms, comparing 'hanging air' by kite vs. paraglider. See if you agree with my points below:

Pros and Cons:

1. Kiting is more easily accessible than paragliding in that paragliding would require finding cushy hills with gentle slopes or dunes. This would require far more travel to remote regions to enjoy the sport and it is limited by available location far more that kiting. Kite hanging, I believe, can be accomplished in parks or anywhere in the world where there's wind, at any time. Paragliding would require far more coordination.

2. Practicing paragliding in more remote areas would be higher risk, being higher off the ground, and medical relief would typically be much farther away. Injury would be far more complicated in a remote region than in a local park.

3. Paragliding requires return to the point of origin to retrieve the car, or return transportation would have to be coordinated with colleagues.

4. Kiting can be practiced alone, whereas paragliding would best be performed with other people to provide a safety factor.

5. Motorized paragliding, while preferred by some to gain and maintain altitude, is noisy and would not appeal to my appreciation for serenity while enjoying flying. Additionally, I would guess that the noise could eventually impair one's hearing. My hearing depletion due to my aging doesn't need any assistance, thank you. I know I don't want to depend on having to maintain an engine to fly, or the expense.

6. Having recently sold my parachute, I know chutes require frequent periodic inspections. I would guess that paragliding equipment, and gliding, itself, would have far more regulatory restrictions and certification requirements than kiting. In other words, "The Hassle Factor" would likely be far greater pursuing paragliding than kiting as there would definitely be a higher emphasis on equipment maintenance. [I hope I'm wrong, here, but Idon't think so.]

7. I am not open to wanting to be off the ground higher than I want to incur and survive impact. I've determined my max to be two to three feet, unless over water. Then, again, height can play a major role in recovery. I know some aces can glide and flare, landing upright on their feet, but sometimes they land in trees or other undesirable locations, even falling farther to the ground without gliding!

8. It has been pointed out to me that it is likely that paragliding would be more expensive to pursue than kite hanging. Based on the need for personal instruction and likely certification, I would predict this is true. I have not seen paraglider pilots wearing the same amount of protective gear as you've purchased and worn, so I'm not sure about the comparison of expense, here.

9. Paragliding has one major advantage in that steering a paraglider is much easier and probably a lot more effective than a kite. Some of the newer kites do have an auto-zero-zenith construction factor, meaning they can fly themselves when the center line has been tied down to a fixed object. This was possible with the PL Synergy and also now available with their new Charger model. I would think this to be a major control plus for kiting.

10. As you mentioned, air time with a kite can be obtained by waiting for a gust rather than trying to run down a slope. I'm a little timid leaping out into the air any more simply because I've enjoyed and endured as many rough landings as I care to have, even though I'm sure I'm destined for more.

[Regarding #10, getting air time with a kite on level ground appears to be questionable and debatable. My current synopsis is that enough wind to get airborne is enough wind to blow a flyer of larger kites into danger. I am taking this point seriously into consideration and hope we can expound on opinions, here. I think the question I must now post is: "Can air time via kite be obtained and controlled safely." Perhaps this would make a good topic on its own. Correct me otherwise, please, but I believe lift is obtained by obtaining sufficient air flow over and into a kite or canopy similar to the dynamics of an airplane wing. If wind-bobbing or floating is a desired goal, can a kite pilot maintain sufficient steering to enjoy moments of loft and gentle landings toward the fulfillment of one's pursuit of kite flying? Obviously, I've discovered many of you who pursue paragliding think otherwise, but it won't hurt to rehash this in consideration of the above points. I fully respect those of you who, at this point, would like to tell me "why don't you just shut up and fly to find out." Yes, I agree, that is what I could do, and probably should. I'm hoping, however, to save as many bucks and bruises as I can, so I hope you will appreciate my persistence. Thank you.]

I'd like to know your comparison of the new PL Charger, Vapor, or large Twister vs. the Guerilla or Synergy regarding lift capability. (I've been told the Twister and Neo are kites with a lot of lift. If you think of a better kite to try, please offer it.)

Another important question, can I purchase and fly a paraglider canopy as I would a kite without formal certification or regulatory cr-p? (I'm not discounting getting some instruction.) I know the controls are different, but maybe someone can suggest improvisation, if necessary. I've seen internet pictures of motor paraglider pilots who first train to control their canopies by keeping them upright, as if flying them as kites (without motor). It looks to me to be the same as kite flying! They may not do the aerobatic maneuvers as kite flyers with their canopies at ground level, but maybe this might be an answer for me -- like "having one's cake and eating it, too".

I'll be looking forward to your replies.

Again, thanks for your time, effort, and sharing your input.

Stan

Bladerunner - 21-11-2009 at 05:12 PM

I am talking about KITING your paraglider . NOT even going off of a hill but simply running in to the wind . Having a friend add a push or stepping up + off of a bench adds seconds to the float . The most hang time possible in the conditions you describe , it would seem? You don't need a big wind to kite a paraglider so things aren't likely to go as bad.

Paragliding is expensive. Picking up a non flyable paraglider and learning how to ground handle it isn't near as expensive.

I think kites are the Bees Knees but I think you are looking to kite a paraglider ? Much less chance of hurting yourself doing what you want to do! + ( I maybe wrong here ) a shorter learning curve . ( to learn ground handling only ) ? You don't just pick up a 15m Synergy and jump. It takes a few steps to reach that point. If you are going that route you NEED to learn kite control on a smaller kite 1st!

Sustained lift ain't happening around your place unfortunately.

Stan-TheMan - 22-11-2009 at 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lad
I'm not ~quite 60 yet :cool2: but still getting quite breakable. I'd like to try more of the beach hang time stuff too (but all the dunes around here are fenced off). Paragliding and hang gliding is a little more expensive and involved than I'd want to go for at this time.

The most affordable option is a larger arc kite - the earlier ones would do since you're after stability more than speed. The other hang-time vids I've seen use Flysurfers or tube kites.

On anything harder than soft sand, you'll need reinforcements, wraps and padding. I have several kinds of sorbothane ("impact gel") insoles, high-top shoes, and even bought some surplus paratrooper ankle support braces off eBay. You might want to wrap your knees for better support as well as wear hard-shelled pads on the outside.

And remember, all the padding in the world doesn't prevent injury if you land wrong or get pulled enough to twist, bend or torque your limbs. just ask me- I'm still limping a little from a month ago! :sniff:

Now, just to feel better, I'm posting my dream video for the umpteenth time!

*******************
Thanks very much for your feedback.

I'm in the same boat with the expense of paragliding. Check out the Wagas Festival in France via Google. The dune jumping/gliding at low level is all I want and various bunny hops, i.e. walking on air. I plan to only fly in minimum wind with whatever I go with -- the kind of flights similar to the first of the Wright Bros. I don't want to fly by surprise.

Thus far, the Charger, Synergy and Guerilla have been recommended, especially the Guerilla. The Charger and Synergy have the auto-zenith feature. I'm not sure if the Guerilla is an auto-zenith model. I'm hesitant, however, to invest in an older kite that could have a lot of wear or age problems.

Any report you get on the Charger will be appreciated. I've been told the arc kites are typically fast kites. I need more information before making the decision. I'm very leery about all of this because safety is primary. I'm after lift and control, not power, so the paragliding canopy is still a consideration if the price is right.

Again, thanks.

Stan

Bladerunner - 22-11-2009 at 08:10 PM

My #1 issue with my 15m Syn is that it NEEDS a pretty strong wind to do what it is intended to do.

Look in to the Flysurfer Speed in Silver Arrow form. It is the undisputed winner in the low wind lift race for kites.

brplatz - 22-11-2009 at 08:35 PM

Gotta agree with BR on this one, my 15 syn will fly in sub 10mph, but only 15mph plus and I start getting some float without having to crank it through the power zone.

Brian

brplatz - 24-11-2009 at 10:45 PM

Hey Just found this video...

Seems like what your looking for

Stan-TheMan - 25-11-2009 at 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brplatz
Hey Just found this video...

Seems like what your looking for

(Video of kiting paragliders.)

********************************

Thanks very much for offering the video. I have now viewed a number of paragliding videos and some are conservative enough for me, and others, I'm glad I'm on the ground. I've seen enough to realize that while some paragliders offer what I am hoping to do, the risk factor and expense of paragliding is beyond me at this point.

Also, it seems that some pilots can make paragliding look easy, but many YouTube videos show a different story. There seems to be a wide discrepancy of pilot common sense. For now, I'm going to stick with learning how to handle depower and I'll just keep an open mind... and out of trees and rocks, plus, remain in one piece. I just purchased a 12m Synergy to learn depower skills. If I get any air time, I'll report back.

I sincerely thank you for thinking of me.

Stan

stetson05 - 25-11-2009 at 09:22 AM

good luck:wee:

Hanging Equipment

Stan-TheMan - 27-11-2009 at 11:06 AM

Just purchased a 12m to get started with depower. The equipment will hopefully be used for air time, perhaps eventually with a larger kite. :wow:

What are the favorites out there? :o

Helmet: :ninja:

Harness:

Protective Gear: :rolleyes:

Bar Arrangement:

Bladerunner - 27-11-2009 at 06:03 PM

Helmet - something comfortable and tight.

Harness - Mystic

Protective gear - 661

Bar arrangement - I'm not a drinker. Someplace not too loud ? :smug: ( get a long throw bar with a stopper if you plan on using the same bar for more kites )

acampbell - 28-11-2009 at 07:23 AM

Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone.

Flying static with a de-power is like putting a screen door in a submarine to keep the fish out; it will work but lead to other problems and not realize its potential.

No amount of typing will change the fact that what you seek is not attainable without a paraglider, especially in your conditions and terrain, and you have already ruled that out.

Bladerunner - 28-11-2009 at 10:13 AM

I understand what you are saying. Stan seems pretty logical and safe.

If I am keeping up to speed with his thinking I am pretty sure that Stan' plans to use the 12m to get a feel for the depower control . NOT for jumping the way he is hoping. He knows he needs to trade up , probably to a Flysurfer SA to get anything like he is working towards. Going straight to a huge SA would be a bigger mistake ?

What you say about the re-sale is very valuable. It is true how often you can buy and older kite , lines and bar for about the price of a bar and lines .

Stan-TheMan - 29-11-2009 at 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone.

Flying static with a de-power is like putting a screen door in a submarine to keep the fish out; it will work but lead to other problems and not realize its potential.

No amount of typing will change the fact that what you seek is not attainable without a paraglider, especially in your conditions and terrain, and you have already ruled that out.

********************

As with any challenge, I have learned to live within my means. As Bladerunner says, I'm using using the 12m to learn depower, not expecting any air time with it. Paragliding appears to be a journey which would easily tempt me to want more and more air. I've managed to live 60 years without breaking any bones. I believe that impact, at this point, is my worst enemy simply because it can destroy my ability to even kite fly. I know I lack a lot of experience in this overall area, and I believe the safest way is to approach this entire concept of "air time" is on a gradual basis, learning much by the opinions of many, such as you.

If paragliding is the way to go, then I will pursue it as my ability to finance my endeavor becomes available and I am convinced that I have pursued all the alternatives available that help me gain a thorough perspective and confidence in my effort. I'm not out for any speed or performance records, so time is not of the essence, or is breaking my neck. I will, however, hope to maintain a steady pace of skill improvement toward my kite flying ability, which I hope leads me to fulfilling my tentative ambitions, if possible.

I appreciated hearing your perspective. I will keep your opinion in mind as I continue moving forward.

Stan

Guerilla

WolfWolfee - 29-11-2009 at 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone.

Well I would have to agree with that one. The Guerilla is a great kite with endless possibilities. I static jump with it lots, and many people have cut their teeth on it. One instructor I met for the Caribbean said they use it too teach kite surfing. He claims its one of the best and they buy any they can find (tried to buy mine). I can't see ever getting rid of my kite, great low wind engine and gentle giant..IMHO

Flying G Zeus - 29-11-2009 at 07:18 PM

I strongly recommend you do not use a Flysurfer Speed 2 (any size) for hovering/gliding - as seen in the videos posted by Macboy. The speed 2 requires nice steady winds (ie. gusts not more than 4 knots above the average) which are not likely what you'll get inland. The Speed 2 15m is my favorite kite, but it's a #@%$#! in gusty wind.

Really important to know which kite suits your conditions. Its a bit of homework, but you'll be glad you did it!

P.S. You're lucky to be getting so much good advice!

Stan-TheMan - 30-11-2009 at 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WolfWolfee

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone.

Well I would have to agree with that one. The Guerilla is a great kite with endless possibilities. I static jump with it lots, and many people have cut their teeth on it. One instructor I met for the Caribbean said they use it too teach kite surfing. He claims its one of the best and they buy any they can find (tried to buy mine). I can't see ever getting rid of my kite, great low wind engine and gentle giant..IMHO

**************************

Thanks for the ditto. Point taken!!!! I feel a sudden urge to look for bananas. : )

Stan-TheMan - 30-11-2009 at 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Flying G Zeus
I strongly recommend you do not use a Flysurfer Speed 2 (any size) for hovering/gliding - as seen in the videos posted by Macboy. The speed 2 requires nice steady winds (ie. gusts not more than 4 knots above the average) which are not likely what you'll get inland. The Speed 2 15m is my favorite kite, but it's a #@%$#! in gusty wind.

Really important to know which kite suits your conditions. Its a bit of homework, but you'll be glad you did it!

P.S. You're lucky to be getting so much good advice!

**************************

Thanks very much for this input. You're right -- I'm grateful to everyone for their posts. I sense that everyone is offering out of sincerity. Very much appreciated.

Now I'll share an experience in return... a little embarrassing, but better to know what can happen...

Two nights ago (flying at night with the moonlight), I flew a two-line PL 2.6 Vibe in gusty wind. In landing, I thought I had secured the bar to retrieve my downed kite. A sudden gust (~12 mph) caught the kite, the bar flew up and hit me, and in the process, my ankle became wrapped in the string -- and then another gust caught the kite. I thought I was going to lose my ankle the way that string was cutting into me. Talk about a wake-up call. From now on, I will never fly without wearing some outside knife or pair of scissors that can cut that string in a heartbeat. Had the wind been more severe, I could have been seriously hurt. Though I had a good flight afterwards, I went home with humility. Oh, one other lesson -- my string broke in the gusty wind. I now believe in using max strength line. Maybe I'd be safer in a balloon.

acampbell - 30-11-2009 at 06:24 AM

two suggestions...

1. line knife for kites. Safe to carry around. see below
2. Sailing gloves. Reinforced palms and fingers for safely grabbing lines under load. Fingertips are open for working on knots, etc.

knife_386.jpg - 10kB

Line Knife

Stan-TheMan - 1-12-2009 at 07:58 PM

That knife looks like a winner. I will definitely order several.

Thanks very much for the idea, and picture. I have some cycle
gloves matching your description. I haven't had much of line burn problem
unless it's with single line, but I thought I was beyond getting my ankle
garroted. I sincerely want that to be a one-time experience.

Hope others of you will wear one before you get in my predicament.

BeamerBob - 1-12-2009 at 08:40 PM

bike gloves have shorter fingers in my experience. West Marine has some great 3/4 finger gloves that give you tactile finger tips but plenty of finger protection as well. You want the gloves to give chafe protection where the fingers meet the handle/bar.

acampbell - 2-12-2009 at 05:52 AM

Yeah, while better than nothing, bike and weight lifting gloves offer chafe protection for broad round objects like handlebars and such. Sailing gloves have extra heavy leather (even if artificial) to protect from a smaller and and textured line zipping through your hand under tension. About $8-10 at West Marine and mine last about 2 years.

furbowski - 2-12-2009 at 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stan-TheMan
I went home with humility. Oh, one other lesson -- my string broke in the gusty wind. I now believe in using max strength line. Maybe I'd be safer in a balloon.

kites have a way of handing you your ego all broken up nice on a platter once in a while... On the other hand sometimes approaching the kite with humility can be the entry to an awesomely ego-boosting session, so go figure.

it's likely your kite line was cut by something on the ground, as kite lines cut really easily under tension and it sounds like your kite was mostly on the ground...

Well, comparing balloons to kites? bit of apples vs oranges there...

Good luck to ya...

:thumbup:

Stan-TheMan - 2-12-2009 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
bike gloves have shorter fingers in my experience. West Marine has some great 3/4 finger gloves that give you tactile finger tips but plenty of finger protection as well. You want the gloves to give chafe protection where the fingers meet the handle/bar.

****************************
Wow, where did I go to school? They didn't teach this stuff!!!!!! :wow:

Thanks!

Feeling El Dummo

Stan-TheMan - 2-12-2009 at 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Yeah, while better than nothing, bike and weight lifting gloves offer chafe protection for broad round objects like handlebars and such. Sailing gloves have extra heavy leather (even if artificial) to protect from a smaller and and textured line zipping through your hand under tension. About $8-10 at West Marine and mine last about 2 years.

************************
I know about the line zip... had a single-line kite hit a gust and the wallet I used to take the heat suffered a severe radial dissection. Could have been my hand!!!! :wow:

Point well-taken!!!!

Ego vs. Senior Agility

Stan-TheMan - 2-12-2009 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski

Quote:

Originally posted by Stan-TheMan
I went home with humility. Oh, one other lesson -- my string broke in the gusty wind. I now believe in using max strength line. Maybe I'd be safer in a balloon.

***************************
My kite didn't really have anything on the ground to cut the string as it was a grass playing field, but one thing I've discovered about kite string -- if there is a way for it to get snagged or cut, it will find it. Probably something I didn't even notice such as a buckle, ring, or something like that...

The snag around my ankle was nothing but sheer senior or novice clutz. I knew better, but it just couldn't happen to me because I am too smart!!!!! Doesn't everyone know that????

The icing was getting hit by the flying bar as the gust took the kite -- not enough to think about having my ankle cut to the bone. Pardon me, I want to hide somewhere.

Thanks for the post... and luck? Well, perhaps more brains would help. Better yet, I should eat those apples and oranges. Maybe it's my diet.

furbowski - 2-12-2009 at 06:51 PM

ankle cut to the bone? that sounds worse than I'd thought. wouldn't take much in the right spot, though... But yes it's the sort of mistake most folks don't make more than once or twice, just be really careful to stay upwind of stuff in the future... Two-line kites don't actually sit on the ground at all well, they NEED to be weighted down really. I fly mine into a volleyball net on the beach when I need to land them in fast and bumpy winds.

"senior or novice klutz ???" just take your time... next time out in high winds will go better. 4 lines also better.

I like doing things my own way, so I've been following this thread with interest. I reckon a lot of the guys here recognize a kindred spirit in you.

But it's essential to take your time if you do it your way tho... Without instruction / hints / help you'll have to figure it out on your own, esp. these surprises like ground handling a big 2-line safely in big winds...

If you get your viper back on four lines it will have more to teach you and be safer to fly. Save learning the bar until you have a kite with float and depower, imho...

is your injury bad enough to keep you off the field for a while?

also have you figured out how to fix your lines yet? You can re-tie things pretty quick, but a quality repair can be a bit more complicated.

keep flying!

:bigok:

Stan-TheMan - 3-12-2009 at 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski
ankle cut to the bone? that sounds worse than I'd thought. wouldn't take much in the right spot, though... But yes it's the sort of mistake most folks don't make more than once or twice, just be really careful to stay upwind of stuff in the future... Two-line kites don't actually sit on the ground at all well, they NEED to be weighted down really. I fly mine into a volleyball net on the beach when I need to land them in fast and bumpy winds.

"senior or novice klutz ???" just take your time... next time out in high winds will go better. 4 lines also better.

I like doing things my own way, so I've been following this thread with interest. I reckon a lot of the guys here recognize a kindred spirit in you.

But it's essential to take your time if you do it your way tho... Without instruction / hints / help you'll have to figure it out on your own, esp. these surprises like ground handling a big 2-line safely in big winds...

If you get your viper back on four lines it will have more to teach you and be safer to fly. Save learning the bar until you have a kite with float and depower, imho...

is your injury bad enough to keep you off the field for a while?

also have you figured out how to fix your lines yet? You can re-tie things pretty quick, but a quality repair can be a bit more complicated.

keep flying!

:bigok:

******************************************
As thin as my 2-line string is, it cuts through flesh without a problem. I could tell you to try it for yourself, but I don't recommend going there -- trust me. The garrote with thin wire has been a long-time weapon used to behead people throughout history. Remember the first 007 movie? (Okay, how about Rome about 300 B.C.?) Thin string having a 300-lb pull can do a number -- especially if up against only thin socks!

My reaction was quick to use my other foot to try to keep the string and kite grounded, but when that failed, I used the long sleeve of my sweatshirt to pull the string back toward me to get slack in the line so I could untangle my foot. I had to dance around a minute on one foot as I couldn't see the string in the dark to untangle my other foot. Fortunately, the gusty wind had died for moment so I could get free. I felt like that fisherman in the movie "The Big Storm" (I think that's the title) where he gets caught by a fishhook and is pulled overboard.

I really didn't sustain any broken skin, but the string was at a point of tension where it was getting ready to do so, and THAT had my attention, especially as the thought of how deep it could cut entered my mind -- and that I couldn't really stop it from happening if done quickly.

Without question, I now have a new respect for braking systems. Amen to the safety factor of 4-liners.

I do weigh my kites down -- before and after flying, but there are times when the best of kite flyers have to confess to losing control and eating ground. I had placed my bar down behind two imbedded screwdrivers to go secure the kite. The gust then hit the kite, the bar flew up and hit my anklebone, and in my reaction, I stepped into my lines.

The injury to my line was a break just before the sewn-covered end.

I don't know that there's enough kite instruction out there to cover all situations before a flyer gets started. Situations like mine are typical of learning the hard way. I'm willing to bet most of the audience reading this thread, as you noticed, has been there, too. That's why they know what gloves to buy -- and where. ; )

Thanks for your interest and post.

Take care,

Stan

furbowski - 3-12-2009 at 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stan-TheMan

Thanks for your interest and post.

Stan

no worries...

...and here's a wee bit of float to whet your appetite, the first 30 secs are best...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVUApkKLD6M

cheers... :thumbup:

Stan-TheMan - 3-12-2009 at 11:42 PM

Quote:

no worries...

...and here's a wee bit of float to whet your appetite, the first 30 secs are best...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVUApkKLD6M

cheers... :thumbup:

******************************
Floating? How do you know this fellow isn't praying? I know THAT'S what I would be doing!!!

My replay tends to skip frames. I played it several times. Did I see a gash just below the knee of the fellow (in blue) jumping over a dune just in front of the camera?

Hope these guys don't need medical. Seems like a long trip for help -- and being stuck in sand doesn't add much confidence. Someone needs to inform the driver that SUV's don't surf well.

Thanks for thinking of me, but you have some infatuation about my style and ability. Remember? I'm the guy who got tangled in his string! Can you imagine doing that 50 feet up? Yeh, right.

Give me a week or two to catch up. I'm going back to praying.

Smiles,

Stan

furbowski - 3-12-2009 at 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stan-TheMan

Thanks for thinking of me, but you have some infatuation about my style and ability.

Stan

no infatuation at all.... just no sense posting on here from my limited experience til you started the long walk up the learning curve.... untangling lines is just the beginning... I'm curious to see where your interest takes you as you get into the nitty-gritty of kites...

:thumbup:

Stan-TheMan - 5-12-2009 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

******************************
Well, I have to say, two of the most impressive aspects I've discovered about kite-flying is the cordial, yet adventurous personalities connected with the sport. Everyone online has been extremely helpful... and they could be taking some good shots at me.
I know a lot these contributors are guys who are doing the 50 foot jumps that would make any hair still left on my head stand on edge.

The other is the amazingly rewarding feeling one gets from flying these crazy things. I have to admit I got started as a curiosity watching some parents fly a kite for their child. I thought that it might be a fun thing to do since we have a lot of wind in Texas. Then I recalled an experience I had in Fairbanks, Alaska, where I watched a power kiter try to hold onto his 3m kite as it was pulling him across the field. What a challenge! I'm kind of funny in that I have fun trying new things... I guess it's the "kid" in me.

I have to watch my UV exposure as I'm riding the edge with it, and Melanoma is the next step if I'm not careful. Otherwise, I'd be out on the dunes or in some water. I used to sail a lot, and the reflection off the water acts like a reflective oven on the skin. With sunscreen, one never knows how much UV still seeps through. I see other kiters in beach pictures trying to guard themselves against sun exposure, too. That's my reason for flying in a lot of moonlight. Putting various lights on kites can give a neat effect.

I think Bladerunner has a cool concept of flying with the rollerblades. I can't imagine what objects I'd take out trying those. The neighborhood would get a real show. :roll:

Others may jeer, but I have a new warmth for 4-line kites due to their braking ability, and I'm cautiously anxious to try the Syn 12m -- my first depower. Depower with rollerblades and I'll be ready for Barnum & Bailey. I see you have a 12m Syn. Any experience is welcome.

Well, the wind is up, and I have honey-do's to get done to qualify to fly.

Take care, and thanks for the encouragement.

Later...

Stan-TheMan - 5-12-2009 at 11:37 AM

Any readers going to South Padre Island (Texas) AKA Kite Festival this January? I've never been to one of these, so I'd appreciate any prep advice. I have visited B & S Kites, who sponsor the activity and they had photos of a lot of people attending -- and I mean A LOT. They're expecting some world-class flyers coming to this.

Another positive note, I became a member of AKA, which, I guess, now says I'm AKC registered.

Lookout!!!!!! Rest easy, I won't be in any competition.

TheMan

Bladerunner - 6-12-2009 at 09:41 AM

You should probably get a good knife with your harness , stock ? I carry 2.

I keep a knife in my helmet and NEVER fly without a helmet. It is easy to access and always there.

The one in my harness isn't as easy to reach. I know of people who got in to trouble because they couldn't get at the one in their harness.

Knife is a safety necessity...

Stan-TheMan - 8-12-2009 at 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
You should probably get a good knife with your harness , stock ? I carry 2.

I keep a knife in my helmet and NEVER fly without a helmet. It is easy to access and always there.

The one in my harness isn't as easy to reach. I know of people who got in to trouble because they couldn't get at the one in their harness.

*************************
Without question, I'm sold on the need for a blade when flying. Thanks for the reassurance, but after getting my ankle in a noose, no argument from me!!!