Power Kite Forum

Synergys vs. Scorpions

power - 9-12-2009 at 07:16 PM

Just wondering how the synergys compare to the scorpions. Lift, steering, gust munching, auto-zenith, lift, handling, lift, set-up, lift, lift, etc.:singing:

brplatz - 9-12-2009 at 07:35 PM

I dont know, but I love my Syn, even though I accidentally ripped her.... sorry babe. :D

Brian

WolfWolfee - 9-12-2009 at 07:41 PM

I think the big thing was Scorpion's were land based and Syn water. I've never flown the Syn's but love my Scorpion.

tridude - 9-12-2009 at 07:49 PM

Scorps and Phannys both work on water and relaunch too but yes the Scorps are primarily land kites. Owned a 16 scorp/15 Syn.......................I give the 16 Scorp turn speed by a hair but the rest goes to the 15 Syn.....lift, stability, launch, relaunch........................................ all arcs auto zenith............

power - 9-12-2009 at 07:57 PM

How often do the arcs even touch the ground during a flying session? I've heard that you can fly em for months and never have them touch the ground except for on takeoff and landing because of the autozenith...
Also, how bad is the scorp for relaunch on water?

BeamerBob - 9-12-2009 at 07:57 PM

tridude, its good to see you owning a Synergy again. And good that you haven't become a flysurfer only type guy. It's always about the kites with you. :thumbup:

tridude - 9-12-2009 at 08:07 PM

how often they're on the ground depends on you..................auto zenith is not auto pilot.....Scorps come off the water but have a tendency to twist with their high AR (5.5 I believe) easier to get a Syn to taco off the leading edge, tug the main lines and shes off...................Ill always have an Arc in the quiver..........had the 10m Syn on the water Tues in 19 to 21 kts ,139x40 board and the kite did very well considering this is the bottom end of her power band...................

power - 9-12-2009 at 08:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tridude
easier to get a Syn to taco off the leading edge, tug the main lines and shes off

What do you mean by this?

furbowski - 9-12-2009 at 08:32 PM

leading edge down relaunch, it's in the manual but i haven't made it work for me yet on the water, land only (with helpers LOL). pull the upwind rear line, it folds in half (taco) and falls over, pull the other rear line to open it up again and relaunch.

flyjump - 9-12-2009 at 08:35 PM

I flew my scorpion 16 for 3 strait hours and it didn't even touch the ground once. Stability is amazing

power - 9-12-2009 at 08:49 PM

What were the conditions like? Gusty? How well does auto zenith perform in gusty conditions and does it overfly and then fall out of the sky?

Kamikuza - 9-12-2009 at 08:58 PM

Have a look on youtube, there's as many (if not more) Scorpions on the water as there are on land. I think it's only the high AR that gives them the 'land only' reputation ... apparently, they're well loved on the water :)

The Phantom has a higher AR at 6 IIRC

power - 9-12-2009 at 09:20 PM

Kami-What do you think of your 13?

flyjump - 9-12-2009 at 09:22 PM

they don't tend to overshoot and fall out of the sky. The autozenith works well. They are great at eating up those gusts. soaking up the gusts while you are riding fast on land is awesome too. It doesn't allow you to get pulled over your board and on your face

power - 9-12-2009 at 09:24 PM

Damn that sounds nice. What do you think is the wind range on land for the 16m?

macboy - 9-12-2009 at 09:27 PM

I hear an arcumcision coming! :lol:

Kamikuza - 9-12-2009 at 09:29 PM

It just arrived last night ... I got it in the box in the car, I'm going to bugger off from work for a couple of hours and open it up and have a look :D

flyjump - 9-12-2009 at 09:29 PM

I'm 174pounds and I can get rolling at 12mph and have ridden up to 20 or 21 mph and that is without depowering down the internal straps

power - 9-12-2009 at 09:31 PM

Wow that's like a one kite quiver. How is it like in the 20's?

brplatz - 9-12-2009 at 09:54 PM

I'm telling yah get the 15m Syn, There are 2 in the for sale section.

I hear they are much better at the launch then the scorps, IIRC which seem to be harder.

Brian

flyjump - 9-12-2009 at 11:06 PM

Awesome in the 20s but very powerful. I usually keep it tame if the winds get up that high. I tend to get out the 13 scorpion in those winds, but sometimes you don't want setup another kite. It'll take you so fast and high in the 20s, gotta be careful though. I've been lofted around 12 feet on accident in big gusts. Try to keep it mild till you get used to it. They have tons of depower though

Kamikuza - 10-12-2009 at 02:36 AM

... what do you make the extensions out of? And how thick?

ripsessionkites - 10-12-2009 at 04:39 AM

my review from before:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=10058&p...

tridude - 10-12-2009 at 06:32 AM

I use 1/8" amsteel.............steering line leaders, pigtails off an inflato, etc......................If you cant get Amsteel over there shoot me your address and Ill send you a couple feet..............:lol::lol::duh::duh:

f0rgiv3n - 10-12-2009 at 08:34 AM

I've owned both a 16m scorpion and a 15m synergy. The only way I could really describe the difference between the two is "polish". The scorpion to me seems like a kite that they tried to throw as much lift into one kite that it ended up being a bit "twitchy". The scorpion doesn't absorb gusts as well but it still absorbs them like an Arc should just not as well as the synergy. Weirdest thing is my 15m synergy is faster than the 16m scorpion. I thought the scorpion was a fast kite for its size but then i got the synergy!! DANG :P .

Launching between the two the Synergy wins, hands down. This is where the problems existed for me and the scorpion, i had too many sessions where it wouldn't launch. It would either bowtie... invert... or a combo of the two lol. But once int he air it was fine, just launching is a learned art with the scorpion. I haven't had any issues with the synergy launching.

Lift -- the scorpion is a tad slower than the synergy but has the same amount of lift. The scorpion is extremely lifty but the synergy is faster so it makes up for it in speed :). OH, and to me, the lift from the synergy is much smoother.

Ok, that's my 2 cents and my bias towards the synergy. :ninja:

power - 10-12-2009 at 10:23 AM

Problem is, $.

Kamikuza - 10-12-2009 at 06:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tridude
I use 1/8" amsteel.............steering line leaders, pigtails off an inflato, etc......................If you cant get Amsteel over there shoot me your address and Ill send you a couple feet..............:lol::lol::duh::duh:

Cheers dude :lol:

If we do, it'll be called some special Japanese name and measured in metric or worse some special Japanese method :rant: tried to buy 10 gauge wire for power mod to the bike once ... :no:

Actually, the kite club has rolls of ... stuff ... that may be suitable. Problem is, now it's winter, coordinating a time when the shop will be open :(

tridude - 10-12-2009 at 07:11 PM

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

let me know I can send some over..........above is the link with Scorp pigtail info............

Kamikuza - 10-12-2009 at 11:00 PM

I should just leave that page open in a tab and lock it :lol: I always seem to end up skimming through that ...

Kamikuza - 10-12-2009 at 11:07 PM

Quote:
My Scorpion stalls what is the problem/fix ?
Answer: To stop the kite from stalling you need to add 20cm rear pigtail extensions when using the Zero7 or Zero4 bar set to the default settings. You then adjust the settings to the required rear line length depending on the wind speed you are flying in.



Says 20cm but the diagram shows 12 inches with is more like 30cm ... typo?

ripsessionkites - 11-12-2009 at 04:21 AM

i was lazy so i just tied a knot in the top bridle about 3"

tridude - 11-12-2009 at 08:03 AM

prob a typo...........I used to 6" knot on my 16 and worked fine for me throughout its windrange.............anything beyond that youve got the trim strap..................

acampbell - 11-12-2009 at 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
How often do the arcs even touch the ground during a flying session? I've heard that you can fly em for months and never have them touch the ground except for on takeoff and landing because of the autozenith...
Also, how bad is the scorp for relaunch on water?


I made some snide remark some time back about "how could you crash an ARC?"... then I had my ass justly handed to me shortly thereafter. Two scenarios come to mind...

1) you are flying at the low end of the wind range and then the wind just stops for a moment. Flying at speed, you could get through this with momentum and apparent wind, but one day I was putting the kite down so it was slow. The wind died and the kite inverted and started t o fall. Then a puff came up. I pulled the safety to slack the lines and just dump it. the line tension was not enough to free the Velcro on the landing handle (and I did not reach fast enough to free it) but the tension was strong enough to power the kite into the ground inverted and inside out. the sticks cut through the plastic tips and the front of the pockets. Lesson: In light winds dumping the kite, free the Velcro on the landing handles by hand first.

2) Sometimes it is easy to get mixed up, maybe in a turn gone bad or evasive action, get the bar spun around and then grab the wrong end of the bar, sending it into the ground instead of the other way before you notice and recover. I've done this and always been able to recover in time, but I can see it happening and ending badly if it's already close to the ground.

But these aside, they are rock stable and predictable.

power - 11-12-2009 at 06:14 PM

Can they be reverse launched?

action jackson - 11-12-2009 at 06:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
Can they be reverse launched?

No.....aj

power - 11-12-2009 at 06:33 PM

How do you relaunch if they land leading edge down?

furbowski - 11-12-2009 at 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
How do you relaunch if they land leading edge down?


the "taco" thing much earlier in this thread....

power - 11-12-2009 at 08:01 PM

O ya that's right. Basically it seems like the synergy is an overall better kite than the scorp, but I guess it comes down to money really.

furbowski - 12-12-2009 at 01:25 AM

the synergy was the most recent arc 'til the charger came on the scene.

the scorpion is a bit older than the synergy, which was a big jump up from the Venom II.

scorp is land-based, fwiw, so it sits outside the progression of PL's water kites a bit.

i beleive the charger is meant to bring the land-based lines and the water-based lines back together again in a single range of arcs??? idk tho... phantom AR with charger profile would be interesting....

acampbell - 12-12-2009 at 05:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
How do you relaunch if they land leading edge down?

if it is that way because it inverted / turned inside out, you can walk towards it and hope it flips right side out.

tridude - 12-12-2009 at 06:32 AM

good call AC that one works........................:lol::lol::duh::duh:

power - 14-12-2009 at 09:54 AM

Where do you attach the pigtail extensions? Where can I get the rope for them?

Maven454 - 14-12-2009 at 10:03 AM

They attach to the rear leaders on the kite.

acampbell - 14-12-2009 at 10:06 AM

Rear Bridle Attachments- where the rear lines attach.
I go to the marine store and get some running line, preferably Dyneema or Spectra, about 1/8".
Double it over and tie figure eight knots at intervals. that leaves a loop at one end to larkshead to the bridle.

indigo_wolf - 14-12-2009 at 10:08 AM

If you are looking for 1/8" Amsteel, you can pick it up from West Marine, Defender, your boating/marine supply store of choice.

If you have problems getting give me a holler.... the West Marine is about 20-30 minutes from me unless traffic is hosed and I still have a fair supply of it. :rolleyes:

ATB,
Sam

power - 14-12-2009 at 10:10 AM

So its basically an extension from the flying lines to the kite? Can you send me some of the line?

power - 14-12-2009 at 10:22 AM

Is this the stuff in 1/8"?
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte...
I might get some if no one can ship it out.

acampbell - 14-12-2009 at 10:26 AM

And this is cheaper...
http://tinyurl.com/y8nz8pv

power - 14-12-2009 at 12:43 PM

How much of this do I need to make the pigtail extensions for the 16m scorpion? How much of a difference do the pigtails make in performance of flight?

zero gee - 14-12-2009 at 01:38 PM

It can make all the differance in the world. The kite will stall earlier than it normally would with properly trimmed lines. If your lines are not tuned to the proper length then you have to compensate for it with your trim strap. Doing this will reduce the amount of depower available with the trim. Once you run out of trimstrap you run out of the available depower there.

indigo_wolf - 14-12-2009 at 01:41 PM

Power....

Good to talk to you. Here are the West Marines in your neck of the woods.

http://snipurl.com/tordt

Let me know how things go on your end.

ATB,
Sam

power - 14-12-2009 at 01:54 PM

None of the stores have the stuff Angus suggested. But the store in alexandria has 1/8" amsteel, and I can probably go pick that up tomorow. Will that work just as well?

acampbell - 14-12-2009 at 01:56 PM

Size your pieces long enough to be doubled over but allow more extra length for the knots than you would think. At that diameter, an overhand knot will eat up a couple of inches and a figure-eight knot a lot more, so if you are going to have knots every 2 inches or so to experiment with, you will need twice the length of the pigtail (times 2 doubled up.)
Make one out of scrap cheap line first and see how much it takes before you cut the good stuff.

power - 14-12-2009 at 01:57 PM

So how much should I buy for both pigtails?

indigo_wolf - 14-12-2009 at 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
None of the stores have the stuff Angus suggested. But the store in alexandria has 1/8" amsteel, and I can probably go pick that up tomorow. Will that work just as well?


It'll work. Angus was just pointing you to the dyneema line because it's about $0.30 cheaper a foot. and still has a breaking strength sufficient to hold back a small herd of antelopes. ;) Of course, depending on where you fly, antelopes might not be a concern. :smilegrin:

ATB,
Sam

power - 14-12-2009 at 02:03 PM

Great. I like amsteel in general more than dyneema anyway. But how much should I buy?

acampbell - 14-12-2009 at 02:32 PM

OK, back from the garage with some scrap. 3 1/2' doubled over will yield one 9" tail with knots at 2,4,6,8" spots, plus a little extra to trim off neat. plenty of room to play with.
Make the first knot farther than 2" from the loop end to allow the room the larkshead takes up. So about 7' should do ya. My test cord was thicker than 1/8" so my measurements will be generous in your favor since my thicker cord ate up more length in the knots.

power - 14-12-2009 at 02:56 PM

Ok correct me if I'm wrong, 7 feet total cord (3.5 feet for each pigtail), knots at 2,4,6 and 8" + a little extra from the larks head knot so the first knot will really be at around 3" and the 8" inch knot will be at 9" from the end of the loop, the loop end connects to the trailing edge bridles and the other end connects to the flying lines? I think that's right. What knot do you think I should attach the flying lines to? What kind of knot would be the best stopper knot for this purpose? This last thing may sound dumb, but what is the best way to tie the knots so that both pigtails have knots at the exact same spots?

Maven454 - 14-12-2009 at 03:24 PM

Figure eight knot is a good stopper knot. I can help you with that one, since I'll be there with the kite.

acampbell - 14-12-2009 at 03:45 PM

A figure 8 knot will be very bulky on that line doubled over and will eat up another 2-3" per knot. An overhead knot reduces breaking strength more, but at 2100+ lbs, you have room even if it cuts strength by 1/2 which I doubt when doubled

here are both knots...
http://www.coastalwindsports.com/FigureOfEightKnotTutorial.h...