I am looking to buy a de-power kite initially and primarily for kite landboarding, but would also like the cross-over abilities to use it on water for
kitesurfing at a later date.
Q1. Why would you choose a Ram air foil such as the PL charger, over a LEI SLE kite such as the Best Waroo, or vicea versa?
Q2. What would a 12m kite do for you that a 15 or 19M kite wouldn't, and vicea versa?
Q3. What are your opinions of the two kites mentioned above?
PT1905Houston AirHead - 18-12-2009 at 01:08 PM
i landboard with a 12 meter LEI. 2008 Havoc, Liquid Force. Even when the wind is low at the coast on a SE wind which lets me ride both ways on the
shore, for example on a 4-8 knot wind i can hit speeds 15-20mph.
and in 10-15 knots i hit speeds of 30-35 with ease on land
Ask any one those are low wind conditions. I also use it in wind speeds up to a sustained 30mph.(on water) Basically if you have the cash for a PL
then your going to get one. I got my kite package complete for 330 bucks brandnew basically, it had one repair professionally done. To be honest i
thought i wanted a charger but if i have that kind of cash for a foil hybrid im just going to get the New Speed 3 15m. I also have landboarded with
oher peoples large LEI like 16m and 19m, in about 5 knot winds. So much freakin fun.acampbell - 18-12-2009 at 01:25 PM
Q1: Charger is not a ram-air foil in the sense the term is normally used. It is a Twinskin inflatable. It does have ram air vents but they are
one-way. Twinskins are pre-inflated on the ground the same as LEI's but with the wind via scoops, not with pumps (usually), but pumps or blowers can
be used to speed things up in light wind.
I do not ride on water, and the Twinskins are better on land since they will not burst or deflate if punctured. they can survive a good rip of a few
inches and still fly. Your LEI get one tiny puncture in the bladder and you done. I like the auto zenith. Modern bows have something like it where
they will wait for you at the edge of the window and can be self launched that way. But I do not think you a can tie off a (flying) bow to a fence
and go have lunch like you can an ARC/ Twinskin
Q2: Just a question of wind range.
Q3: See Q1 answer but note that I am biased, riding land only.PT1905 - 18-12-2009 at 02:19 PM
So the differences are:-
Twinskins inflate via wind via pockets
Twinskins are not prone to puncture
Twinskins are better for auto zenith
What about flying characteristics? would any of these be better for certain area's such as lift, freestyle, freeride, hangtime, turning speed...etc
etc?
What is the difference in wind range between the two styles of kite?power - 18-12-2009 at 03:09 PM
Twinskins are just as prone to puncture, its just that if they do get a little hole in them, they will still function but should be repaired. The
difference between LEIs/SLEs and twinskins is basically the difference between a basketball and a moonbounce. You inflate a basketball, and you're
done. It holds its air, but if its punctured, it goes completely flat. A moonbounce isn't a 100% perfect seal, so it has a constant feed of air
feeding into it from a pump/blower. This is how the wind works with twinskins, it is constantly keeping the kite at max inflation as the air flows in
through the vents in the front. All of this said having never flown a twinskin. LEIs were originally designed for water use, but I use mine on land
and it works fine, just make sure you don't pound that leading edge into the ground or you might blow a bladder. The only thing that is a total pain
is relaunching from the leading edge down position, but I have an older C-kite, and I've heard that the modern bow kites are easier to relaunch. Like
I said, I've never flown a twinskin so I can't put my opinion in for that. I say, try before you buy, and see what you like more. I think the auto
zenith feature will be very nice for learning, and you'll probably end up spending more time with the kite in the air as apposed to an LEI, but that
also depends on your skill level, your winds and the type of LEI you get. Above 12m, the kite is usually for a bigger person as apposed to lower wind
speeds.tridude - 18-12-2009 at 06:52 PM
Is this another stir the pot thread?.............................:duh:Houston AirHead - 18-12-2009 at 07:50 PM
peace love and crabs
social studies is a interesting subjecttridude - 18-12-2009 at 08:08 PM
socialist, actually Im a 26 yr veteran that has made it possible for you to express yourself freely and in this case unwisely............I would
suggest in the future you choose you battles more wisely son...........................syuzhak - 18-12-2009 at 08:14 PM
Airhead I don't think you understand when people are attacking you directly or just making a remark. Before you attacked tridude maybe for one you
should have looked at the smiles...
That's why this is the power kite forum not the one where PMU and his boys hang out.Houston AirHead - 18-12-2009 at 08:31 PM
huh?:frog:
why do you have a warning tridude?
OH ok i understand now....acampbell - 19-12-2009 at 05:40 AM
Our work here is done...PT1905 - 19-12-2009 at 08:12 AM
Um......
Did I miss something here? Stir the pot thread? social studies? I was just asking for some beginners kite advice, how and why has this turned into a
slanging match?!Maven454 - 19-12-2009 at 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by PT1905
Um......
Did I miss something here? Stir the pot thread? social studies? I was just asking for some beginners kite advice, how and why has this turned into a
slanging match?!
It's undoubtably safer and easier to just ignore it. Once in a while people get... touchy. It wasn't anything you said.soccerflyer - 19-12-2009 at 09:33 AM
I have only flown 3-4 different types of 4 line fixed bridle kites till I got my LEI. I was waiting for a PL twinskin, but jumped at a good buy from
a guy around here who let me try my Waroo first. I love it so far!! I have been land boarding on it and it works great. The guys in my area
kite-surf mostly, but land board a lot too. They all have Best Waroos which is an LEI. I still haven't flown a twin skin to compare and I would love
to. I may own one someday. So I can't say which is better, but I can say that a good LEI will definitely do that trick.acampbell - 19-12-2009 at 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by PT1905
What about flying characteristics? would any of these be better for certain area's such as lift, freestyle, freeride, hangtime, turning speed...etc
etc?
The answer to this can only be dictated by personal, preference, riding style and so forth.
Earlier ARC's (Twinskins) were slower than most LEI's but that gap has just about closed with the modern kites (Synergy, Charger).
Quote:
What is the difference in wind range between the two styles of kite?
Again largely subjective. Arcs are well known for their ability to munch gusts well, however.
Sorry; the thread looked like troll bait for a minute.. :-)Bladerunner - 19-12-2009 at 09:50 AM
There is nothing that says you can't use your LEI on land.
Obviously you can pop a bladder and a popped bladder can end your sesion. For this reason it is better to learn with a ram air foil. Pumping is
another obvious issue but really only take minutes away from your session.
The newer Bow and SLE kites have as much depower as any other kites. Waroos are popular and pretty cheap .
I love my arcs and like auto zenith but was very close to going to Waroos at one point.
Try Before You Buy is always the best possible choice. It is ALL about what works for YOU !!!!tridude - 19-12-2009 at 06:25 PM
sorry about that PT.........you can use either and as always try before you buy if possible.................tridude - 19-12-2009 at 06:35 PM
yep Waroos and OR Rise are 2 of the best tubes Ive flown..................................PT1905 - 20-12-2009 at 05:04 AM
Quote:
I am looking to buy a de-power kite initially and primarily for kite landboarding, but would also like the cross-over abilities to use it on water for
kitesurfing at a later date.
So would choose what if your choices were :-
Peter Lynn Charger
Best Waroo
I have my lesson in one hour, and am hoping he will bring along the waroo to let me try it out. It's a 2 hr lesson - I expect the lesson will be
mostly basics but am hoping to have enough info at the end to decide which kite to buy and these two are at the top of my list at the moment. Will let
you know how the lesson goes.
PT1905Bladerunner - 20-12-2009 at 08:59 AM
Good news about the lesson.
I only suggested Best's Waroo because the can be bought used for cheap.
It is best NOT to spend TOO much on your 1st kite. You will be very hard on it so buying new is not your best money.
Ask the instructor what has been working for the locals.markite - 20-12-2009 at 09:34 AM
here's an awesome vid from a jam session at Redcar England - landboarding and buggy freestyle. Check the height and rotations on these guys - almost
all LEI on the landboards.
I'd have to say in the last few years the whole puncture bladder thing vs foils isn't quite as much of an issue. There are a huge amount of LEI's used
here all winter and you see kites hit the ground all the time. Open cell foils take the most abuse with least damage, and probably closed cell foils
have more blown cells than popped bladders.
But in terms of repair I'd rather repair the foil damage over the cost and time on a bladder if it blew out the leading the edge.
Both work and it it all depends on how you fly and how well you take of your gear. You get used to what you have and make it work to it's full
potential because you gain familiarity with it.
Anyway check out the video - mad skills.PT1905 - 20-12-2009 at 10:07 AM
Ok...
Had the lesson. First started on a small 2M LEI on bar, wind at start was 8-12 knots. we went through:-
He said I quickly got the hang of the small kite and I was doing figure 8's and dipping it into the power zone to get the feel of the kite. It was a
very nippy, and I was surprised at the amount of power it was generating for such a small kite.
Next we setup the 7m Waroo, and he went through the safety setup and the differences between the two setups. By this time the wind was very gusty and
was up and down alot. He explained that the bigger kite was much slower and that you have to wait longer for it to react. Up it went, and the first
couple of times the kite totally luffed, and fell out the sky. Third time, it went up and I think there must have been a sudden gust, combined with me
being too aggressive on the turning of the kite right in the heart of the power zone...I bet you can guess what happened eh!? SPANKED!
This knocked my confidence alot, and afterwards we relaunched it with me sat on the ground to get more of a feel for the power of the kite. Although I
did get the kite back up and flying, I didn't quite get the hang of the turning the kite and felt reasonably out of control and pretty worried about
getting spanked again!
By this time it was time to pack up, and the instructor said that the wind was not very easy to learn in because one minute you were struggling to
keep it in the sky and the next minute it was powered up.
One thing for sure is that it has made me realise just how much power these kites can generate (the hard way!) and I think now my initial thoughts of
a 10/12/15m are out of the window. He suggested that a 7m would be the right size LEI for me to start with.
He also went on to suggest that if I was not thinking about getting on the water in the near future (which I'm not) then it might be worth starting on
a 3.5m foil on handles - easier to setup and learn on for landboarding, and then once I was really pushing the kite to get the most out of it, then I
could move on to LEI's or bigger foils.
Question: If its a bar setup that I think I will end up using, Is it not better to go with a bar from the off, rather than starting with handles and
swapping later?
He said that he didn't think I was ready to go out and buy an LEI and suggested that I needed another hour or two to gain my confidence with the
Waroo. Trouble is these lessons are expensive!
Bladerunner, I totally agree now and think second hand would be the best way to go if I were to go the LEI route. Question is....Foil or LEI!
PT1905syuzhak - 20-12-2009 at 10:31 AM
Was this lesson inland or on the beach?PT1905 - 20-12-2009 at 10:35 AM
The lesson was inland about 6 miles from the coast.furbowski - 20-12-2009 at 10:35 AM
bar / handles: easy to switch back and forth, imho. learning the one will not mess up the other. handles offer more control options over the bar.
Are your winds always that gusty? You'll definitely want to go for a gust-resistant depower in the long term if so, and yes that would mean a bar.
the nice thing about a small foil on handles is really quick setup and take down, great for when you are learning as you can fly a wide variety of
winds and sites on your own, and you'll need that as a solid base for your skills. No substitute for hours and hours spent flying.
also 2-3 hours of lessons = cost of small foil and then you can get in lots of flying hours, the best thing you can do at this point.Bladerunner - 20-12-2009 at 01:23 PM
It is SO TRUE that having a trusty foil to play with is great money spent.
Quick and convenient for short sessions. Great for introducing the sport to friends .
If you get a harness and hook in you can learn a LOT about what a Depower does by immitating it on the handles. Doing brake turns and stalling the
speed etc. 3 - 4 m is a good size.
There is a 7m Pulse on sale here that would be a pretty good place to start on depower. It is a "Closed Cell " foil so you can take it out on the
water later. It flies a lot like an LEI so changing over would be easy in the future. I'm very fond of mine !PT1905 - 20-12-2009 at 03:10 PM
Quote:
the nice thing about a small foil on handles is you can fly a wide variety of winds and sites on your own
Furbowski, what I was told was that when you fly a depower such as a waroo, it covers a bigger wind range and gets you out more times in different
conditions, whereas with foils you need 3 or 4 different foils to cover the same wind range.
If I were to opt for say a 4m foil, would this get me out enough? what sort of wind ranges would I be able to use such a kite in?
I'm starting to think that I should opt for a second hand 4m foil option, to properly learn the ropes. Once confident, move on to LEI or Pulse or
something...
By the way, I really appreciate all of your advice.
PT1905Bladerunner - 20-12-2009 at 05:34 PM
There is no such thing as a one kite quiver.
What you say about depower is correct.
Only having a 4m fixed bridle will restrict your days but having ONLY a 7 or 9m Waroo or 7m Pulse would also not cover all winds. My 7m Pulse does
work from about 12mph on land to Almost 30mph. Not bad!
The trick is to get a good size for learning THEN the most useful size for your area.Kamikuza - 20-12-2009 at 06:19 PM
One kite quiver - depends on how consistent your winds are or how fussy you are about going out. 90% of the kitesurfers in my area here have a one
kite quiver and they just stop riding if they're over or underpowered
IMHO a 4 - 5m FB will cover a wide range of wind for riding landboards, when you're learning. Then get a nice depower of some sort ... that's for land
though.stetson05 - 20-12-2009 at 07:35 PM
I agree that a 4 or 5 m that is not too lifty would cover a large range. Lower winds require more aggressive flying while in a little higher winds
you can park and ride. Be careful though, I have been lifted and carried as far by my 3m FB as I have with my 11m Neo. It all depends on conditions
and gusts. I think you can get more out of a fixed bridle if you use handles than you can with a bar IMO.krumly - 20-12-2009 at 09:09 PM
I have way too many kites, and none of them are the latest models, but I've flown them enough to have preferences and more-or-less understand why they
work the way they do:
PL Arcs -at least the Guerilla I & II's and the Venom I I have flown - are good at absorbing gusts, having 'autostability' or positive fore-aft
stability. If hit by a gust at the zenith, they don't overfly much and they settle back into the window on their own without you paying attention to
them. I surmise this is due to the combination of foil sections ( they use reflex sections in the shoulders and tips, and sometimes in the center of
the kite), combined with twist distribution and location of the center of pressure of the individual cells.
Additionally, Arcs generally autozenith, or have positive lateral stability, such that they seek the zenith if the bar is released. This is because
their center of lateral resistance is ahead of their center of gravity enough to steer them back to the center of the window if they are falling off
to the side. They don't hit the ground often, but they are harder to roll over than my LEI bows, and they don't reverse launch like a foil, fixed
bridle or depower.
My LEI bows have even better depower range than the aforementioned arcs, but they aren't autostable - you can dump the pull & power in an instant,
even ripping across the window to just barely enough to keep the kite aloft, but you have to pay attention to the kite. It won't settle itself down
automatically in gusts.
As Angus mentioned, LEI bows will just sit on the ground at the edge of the window. Not a good place to leave them because of where and lines on the
ground, but they behave well there. But that same trait also means they won't autozenith. Their center of lateral resistance is behind the center of
gravity enough that the it means the kite will keep falling off to the side if you don't give steering input. In MN, we get gusty inland winds and
cold winters. I don't think pumping them up is that big a deal, and mine don't even have single point inflation.
I'll admit I usually go for the foils or Arcs if it's below zero (F, not C) out. And same for the buggy, but I've beat my bows quite a bit on icy
lakes and grass fields and not popped a bladder yet. I don't landboard, but will say switching from handles to abr is not a big deal - handles are
nice on fixed bridles.
krumlyPT1905 - 21-12-2009 at 01:53 PM
Thanks for all your advice
I have decided to opt for a foil for my first kite. I will be looking for a kite that is useable on handles (to start) and a bar a bit later on. I was
advised by my instructor that I should look at the rage, or the blurr (something that is not too lifty, even though I am really looking forward to
getting some air!). I am 6ft 3" and weigh 195lbs / 14 st.
I think I have narrowed my favourites to these five:-
Flexi Rage
Flexi Blurr (I read that this was primarily for buggying?)
Flexi blade (too lifty in 4m?)
Ozone Flow
PL Twister II
I was told previously that the Twister II works very well with a controll bar setup. The Ozone kites look to be very good quality, and I must say that
these two are probably my fav's of the bunch. The Rage is also a very good kite according to some reviews I read.
What are your opinions on these kites?
Bladerunner, you mentioned that a new kite would not be your best money, does this apply to foils as well? Really feel like just ordering something
now!
PT1905tobytobsen - 21-12-2009 at 02:16 PM
Add the HQ Powerkites Scout to that list. Agus started me on that as my first powerkite - it comes ready to fly with a 4 line bar (no depower) and flies
really quick for a bar fixed bridle.
I really love it and still use it for high wind days now. I have the 4m, which workes for the little windier days on the coast for boarding and almost
always for static flying. For a little less windier spots you might have to go for the 5m, I weight around 210lbs and ride a landboard.
The bar comes with a d-loop which you can hook into a harness when you learned how to fly it, this then saves you a lot of pain after long sessions
:-)acampbell - 21-12-2009 at 02:28 PM
The Rage and Blurr are both low-lift buggy engines by design, but there is nothing stopping you from using them on a land board. I have not flown the
Blurr on a bar and don;t know how it will do there, but the Rage flies fine on a bar. The Blurr is more recent and much higher performance than the
Rage. Still easy to fly; just more refined.
The Blade's aggressiveness might be a distraction on a land board while learning. Imagine someone literally jerking you around at every gust while
learning to balance.
Twister II is much more smooth on power build-up than the Blade and a fine high lift kite. I was however disappointed in how it flew on a bar. You
really have to play with brake tension just right and even then I found myself giving up more finesse and turning speed than I am used to when
switching to a bar. I had a customer (new flier) return a Twister on a bar thinking there was something wrong with it. That guy is now VERY happy
with a Rage on handles that he traded up to.
Edit: Ooops, forgot the Flow. The Flow is nice and I bet would do well on a bar. I have low time on mine but it is a nice kite for all-around rec.
flying. Not real high lift.
Remember that you do not have to use a bar on a land-board. It is common but not a rule.acampbell - 21-12-2009 at 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by tobytobsen
Add the HQ Powerkites Scout to that list. Agus started me on that as my first powerkite - it comes ready to fly with a 4 line bar (no depower) and flies
really quick for a bar fixed bridle.
I really love it and still use it for high wind days now. I have the 4m, which workes for the little windier days on the coast for boarding and almost
always for static flying. For a little less windier spots you might have to go for the 5m, I weight around 210lbs and ride a landboard.
The bar comes with a d-loop which you can hook into a harness when you learned how to fly it, this then saves you a lot of pain after long sessions
:-)
Good call Toby, thanks. 'Been a long day and I forgot. The Scout is really purpose built for land boarding and is also a great all around rec. kite.PT1905 - 21-12-2009 at 02:49 PM
Quote:
The Flow is nice and I bet would do well on a bar. I have low time on mine but it is a nice kite for all-around rec. flying. Not real high lift.
So as this does not have high lift, it would probably fit my criteria as a landboard begginner, and also be of a similar comparison to the Blurr?Maven454 - 21-12-2009 at 02:58 PM
I love my Flow, I think it's a great kite. Assuming that you order it with handles, it will come with a strop which will let you hook in if you have
a harness. The bar that comes with the Flow comes with a CL to hook into.acampbell - 21-12-2009 at 03:08 PM
The Flow is an all around recreational kite and the Blurr is purpose built as a go fast buggy engine and will reach upwind betterPT1905 - 21-12-2009 at 03:12 PM
Just wanted to mention that I found the Blurr to have quite a bit of lift as well (probably from it's speed) but lift just the same...It was also very
stable as well and fast.
Rage was really good but definitely not as powerful as the Blurr.
Blade is great but too much lift when you're just starting out.
Liked the Twister II but too slow on the re-direct for me...but that might not be a bad thing and that might improve in higher winds..not sure.
Haven't tried the Flow but I love the Cult!
IMHO and in your situation, I'd go with the Blurr or Twister II...Kamikuza - 21-12-2009 at 06:29 PM
IMHO again the taller and bigger you are, the more the kite will hand you your arse I reckon it's something to do with leverage and moment of inertia :D
Pick your wind carefully when you're beginning ...krumly - 21-12-2009 at 10:06 PM
PT -
If you are flying inland in gusty winds, I also highly recommend PKD Brooza's, especially the 3 and 4m. They are soemtimes considered an
'intermediate' kite, a bit higher aspect and faster, but they aren't bad to learn on.
Build quality is excellent - comparable to Ozone -and they are quite forgiving in gusts. Small inlets let you hot launch more easily, since the kite
takes a bit longer to fill when it leaves the ground. It also helps them keep their shape in gusts or when they overfly so the don't collapse so fast.
New models come with bridle trim adjusters that let you tune the angle of attack.
They don't have much market share - bigkid on this forum sells them out in Washington (no affiliation - he's just the only dealer I know of in US)
krumlyPT1905 - 23-12-2009 at 11:01 AM
Hi
I've finally made the order! I've opted for a 3.5M Rage in rasta colourway on handles. Should be with me in the first week of January. Good Times!
I asked my instructor:
Quote:
You mentioned that I was not ready to go out and buy a LEI, but do you think I would be able to go out on a small foil to learn more in my own time?
His reply:
Quote:
Virtually nothing that we did today on the LEI applies. With the LEI you control the kite totally differently to the foil. That said your
understanding of the wind window seemed good, and you picked up the control of the smaller kite well so I think just a 1hr lesson, covering the
difference in set up safety and flying technique would be sufficient.
Would you say it's necessary to take this lesson or should I save the money and take it to the local field to start learning by myself?
Have I made a good choice by ordering the Rage ? Hope so, because it's too late now!
PT1905furbowski - 23-12-2009 at 11:32 AM
I wouldn't bother with the lessons for a small FB. The lessons are far more relevant when you're talking big LEI's than small foils. Besides, you
have your respect for the wind now after being spanked by the 7m, once you have the correct respect then just take things slowly and think them
through. Take it to the local field and starting getting to know the kite. The two main issues for folks just starting out with small FBs are line
management (avoiding tangles) and proper brake usage with the 4 line handle setup (watch your brake lines carefully, and pay real close attention to
how it flies with those lines tight or loose, on one side or both).
btw, I mentioned something about wide wind range with the 3-4 m fixed bridle much earlier in this thread... The small fixed bridle will be flyable in
a wide range of winds, but will only be powered up in the upper part of its wind range. With a bigger depower you will have a wider wind range when
powered up, but you'll lose a significant amount of low-wind flyability NOT powered up over the small FB, if that makes sense. In other words, the
small FB will allow you to fly a wide range of winds from almost nothing up to around 20-25 mph, but you'll only be powered up starting around 12-15
mph. However, the kite will fly (but not pull much) starting around 4-6 mph, which allows you to start developing your skills in a wide range of
winds. Part of the confusion is from using the words "wind range" two different ways -- just being able to fly the kite static as opposed to having
enough power to get moving "powered up".
Putting in lots of hours static until you're on top of the Rage in a wide range of winds and conditions -- that's your goal now, eh?
I've flown a couple bullets (pre-rage from flexi) and judging from those you'll be in great shape with the rage.
Enjoy the new kite!!! But after this buy used, unless you're rich.... acampbell - 23-12-2009 at 01:04 PM
Great choice! Take that puppy out in 7-10 mph at first and don't look back. Go to lessons again when back to the LEI.
Later you can fly the Rage 3.5 in 20-25 if you want. You will know when.tridude - 23-12-2009 at 04:45 PM
Flexi is alwayz a good choice...................:duh::duh:Chicagokitejumping - 31-12-2009 at 03:27 PM
I do kitelandboarding and like Acampbell say
The answer to this can only be dictated by personal, preference, riding style and so forth.
I dont like pumps and i like to be able to re-launched the kite by myself then i used NEO's from HQ , very easy .
The Peter Lynn Charger looks Great too ! is diferent that the neo but a perfect crossover and No pumps and Not Bridges Great reviews
The best time for me kitelandboarding have been with the Ozone flow 5.0 (Small kite with no Depower)
i saw a lot people with Ozone Access into kitelandboard but you cant go to the water with this kite , the perfert crossover for my is the Peter Lynn
and NEO's
:duh:
