Power Kite Forum - HQ Neo II 14 metre- who has one?

HQ Neo II 14 metre- who has one?

bribe36 - 31-1-2010 at 08:13 PM

I picked up the 8m Neo II a month ago and I'm luv'n it. Now it's time to get the 14m. Anyone out there have one and want to share their thoughts?

power - 31-1-2010 at 09:11 PM

Just letting you know you might want to consider the 11m. A friend of mine was buggying with it in less than 10 knots, the 14 might be overpowering in much more than that depending on your weight.

csa_deadon - 31-1-2010 at 11:58 PM

Angus, this sounds like it is need of your input.

macboy - 1-2-2010 at 12:07 AM

I'd say for your size and our winds you should definitely hit up the 14 but you'll find an 11 kicking around one day too. Your 8 will wind up your high wind rig ultimately but you'll get far more rideable days out of the 14 for the craptastic stuff we fly in.

macboy - 1-2-2010 at 12:09 AM

Might want to check into the difference between the Neo I and the Neo II. There's an 11 for sale on here (Neo I) and seems nicely priced. You could hide both kites in one bag so nobody'd have to be the wiser :evil:

WIllardTheGrey - 1-2-2010 at 03:11 AM

here is a demo 14m neo I @ Powerkite Place he has it marked down 30%

acampbell - 1-2-2010 at 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell

I have not flown the 14. I don't know how much or if the lower end is extended from the 6-8 mph of the 11m, but it would not be much lower with that weight. I think a 14 would be fine for a big rider on water but a bit much for the bug. My comfort with the 11m tops out at about 18mph of wind speed, when I start feeling a draft under my 210 lb. arse.

Oh, yeah, the original question!
I tried to answer with the comment above, but I'm afraid my further comments about the the Neo 1 stirred the pot and contributed to a hijack. My bad.

I have since spoken to Craig at HQ about this after Frathouse asked me a similar question. Craig confirmed my thoughts above. The 14m Neo is suitable for the heavy rider, 200 lb +, needing more grunt on the water but would be too much on land. What surprised me was that he thought it would be too much on snow as well (like I know a lot about snow here in GA). While the 14m Neo 2 is will turn faster - Craig could downloop it without dragging a tip- The agility of the 11m would make up for the grunt the 14m offered on land and be much more useful.

I hope that helps some.

Edit: I just accidentally deleted most of my post here by hitting "edit" instead of "quote" in efforts to respond to his original question. (see response below dated 2/10) I did not mean to alter the thread and take anything back or cover my tracks.

DAKITEZ - 1-2-2010 at 10:39 AM

land or water?

If using the 14m neo 1 on land its a beast. If you have enough wind to inflate the kite then you are almost overpowered. You can use some systems talked about on the forum to pre inflate the 14m then you will have a useable range from about 5 - 10 or 12mph. if mainly use for land I would recommend the 11m or go with a ram air like the montana.

maybe the 14m neo2 will be better since its suppose to turn faster and inflate easier????

_thephantom_ - 1-2-2010 at 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell

I have concluded that the only safe way to put a Neo 1 down in higher winds is with a helper at the edge of the window. Or maybe if you have a pole to back it on to.

The only safe way to land a NEO 1 is to have left it in the bag to begin with.

If you think landing an 11 is tricky - try a 14.

Sadly as i have said before in a couple of posts, these NEO 1's with supplied Bar and systems are dangerous. The NEO 2's seem to have had the wrinkles ironed out.

Unfortunately the poor soul's who have been carted around the beaches using these kites and are now stuck with them have just been the experimental Guinea pigs for HQ.

Not good enough HQ. What are you going to do about it?

The upgrades should be offered to current NEO 1 owners as a matter of safety and principle.

Buyer beware until then

acampbell - 1-2-2010 at 02:33 PM

That's a bit harsh.
It's a delightful buggy and landboard engine up to about 15 mph when it becomes hard to put down without help or a real solid stake.
Of course that IS a problem of limited use since that is about when things light up for water and snow.

_thephantom_ - 1-2-2010 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell

Of course that IS a problem of limited use since that is about when things light up for water and snow.

Correct, I will qualify my previous post then

if you plan to use a NEO 1 in sizes of 11 or 14 on the water [or snow] in winds over 15mph then you will not be able to self land safely.

sorry if my earlier posts appear harsh.

acampbell - 1-2-2010 at 03:00 PM

I'm going to look into a retro install for a center bridle- sew some bridle loops into the center cell- prolly get in through the deflate zip to do the stitch work.

WolfWolfee - 1-2-2010 at 06:43 PM

I have to agree with Phantom, if companies make a huge blunder like this they should step up to the plate and make it right. I had the same problem with Flexi and the Sabre, they handed out the fix for free in the UK and wanted me to pay nearly $400 for shipping etc to do the same thing. I did get the modification from a mate in the UK and it makes a big difference. I will never purchase another Flexi product over this issue.
Angus I know how hard you work in promoting the sport but this issue is going to harm our sport IMHO.

DAKITEZ - 1-2-2010 at 08:29 PM

I understand that some people are having troubles with higher wind self landings with the neo1. Is this to say that the kite is a horrible kite? I just can't say that ... if you are in high winds have someone help you land it. What is the difference with that vs. a inflatable?

I understand Phantom had other issues with the bar. i am just addressing the landing "isssue". I didn't have a problem with the landing, but i was always on land in these type conditions and i weigh 240lbs so I make a pretty good kite stake. In the water I could see this could be a different situation. So maybe its best to say the kite is good on land, but not quite up to water standards??

As for being upset about no fix for the neo1 I understand the frustration. but think of it this way .. do you expect a computer company to give you a new upgraded model when they come out with a new model 3 weeks after you bought your new computer? if that was the case we would all be getting new computers on a weekly basis ;-) Again hopefully the issues addressed towards the neo1 are taken care of now.

_thephantom_ - 2-2-2010 at 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ
I understand that some people are having troubles with higher wind self landings with the neo1. Is this to say that the kite is a horrible kite? I just can't say that ... if you are in high winds have someone help you land it. What is the difference with that vs. a inflatable?

Yes this is a very poor design and is unsafe.

Further more it is known to be unsafe.

The kite is published with a wind range of useability. The kite becomes unsafe to land at the lower published wind range. It was sold and marketed as per this generic "blurb" as found on most websites selling kites. May I quote...

"In cooperation with Tom Bourdeau, HQ Powerkites has launched a true crossover kite that will revolutionize the sport. An innovative closed cell design and bridle system allows riders to use the NEO on terra firma or water with the ability to launch and land in areas never before possible. "

In fact this is the exact "speil' on your website.

I purchased this kite because i was assured that self landing was in fact a positive point that made a NEO preferable to inflatibles.

The fact they have changed to the flysurfer method is testimony to the fact that this is a widespread problem.

I have flown ARC's and self landed in all conditions, safely. I have never had a problem self landing an inflatable in conditions that do not exceed its rated wind range. I do not kite unsafely.
Are you saying that my expectations of the NEO are far to high? and that I am unrealistic to self land a kite safely within the published wind range?. I did not see any marketing that suggested to me that buyer should be aware that to use this kite in the middle of the wind range you need to bring a friend.
How many kites are sold with the fine print that says kite safely bring a friend.

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ understand Phantom had other issues with the bar. i am just addressing the landing "isssue". I didn't have a problem with the landing, but i was always on land in these type conditions and i weigh 240lbs so I make a pretty good kite stake. In the water I could see this could be a different situation. So maybe its best to say the kite is good on land, but not quite up to water standards??

Maybe it is the best to say that it should not be used on water, it is interesting to me that you never see any advertising which showed the 11 or 14 metre kites being used on the water, its always the 8.

If that is the case, i am entitled to my money back, given that I only purchased these kites last August?

Will you be changeing your website to reflect this revelation?

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZAs for being upset about no fix for the neo1 I understand the frustration. but think of it this way .. do you expect a computer company to give you a new upgraded model when they come out with a new model 3 weeks after you bought your new computer? if that was the case we would all be getting new computers on a weekly basis Again hopefully the issues addressed towards the neo1 are taken care of now.

No i expect a responsible company to acknowledge they got it wrong and publish ways to retrofit safety systems that actualy work..In other words protect the consumer.
Flysurfer do this, you can upgrade older kites to FDS.

Your computer analogy is laughable, i do not expect my computer will subject me to near death experiences - so if you brought a toyota and it had a dangerous fuel system that under certain circumstances could leak catch fire and kill you, and two weeks later they introduced a new model that cured this problem ... i take it your response would be?

So you sell a kite knowingly with a fault that could under certain circumstances lead to death or serious injury [even unknowingly] you would do nothing?
You would simply say the new model fixes that, too bad you have the old model.

Computers yes, Kites No.

Insect0man - 2-2-2010 at 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by _thephantom_
i do not expect my computer will subject me to near death experiences

Never used Windoze 3.0 ehh? :spin:

Quote:

Originally posted by _thephantom_
so if you brought a toyota and it had a dangerous fuel system that under certain circumstances could leak catch fire and kill you, and two weeks later they introduced a new model that cured this problem

The present Toyota recall with the "stuck" accelerator pedal is probably more analogous. From what you and Angus describe, it sounds like when the Neo 1's safety system fails at higher winds, the kite is essentially stuck on.

Curious - for self landing in a controlled manner, have you tried landing the Neo 1 upside down? With the kite inverted on the surface it shouldn't relaunch yes?.... does this work in practice? Of course, even if it did - that would not resolve the safety system failure... for uncontrolled landings.

I like my NeoII 11m, Hydra 350, and Scout 5.0 - my experience with the HQ lineup has been a good one and I'm presently considering adding the NeoII 8m.

It's unfortunate HQ is slow to resolve/respond to this issue - especially as the Neo 1 was marketed as a higher level beginner kite. Seems reasonable to offer some kind of discounted upgrade or at least a retrofit.

Seems to me these used 11's and 14's beginning to floating around the resale market, with no retrofit available, are time bombs waiting to go off; and when they do go off, it will damage HQ's reputation and have a negative impact upon the development of the sport.

But this is avoidable - if HQ is smart and proactive.

DAKITEZ - 2-2-2010 at 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by _thephantom_

So you sell a kite knowingly with a fault that could under certain circumstances lead to death or serious injury [even unknowingly] you would do nothing?
You would simply say the new model fixes that, too bad you have the old model.

This could go on forever, so I am going to quit the hijack on this thread. But before I do I will address the above statement. If I felt a kite was extremely dangerous because of a defect I WOULD NOT SELL IT! I like to pride myself that I do the best I can to make this sport as safe as I can. If someone was in a life or death situation with this kite they can simply pull the chickenloop safety and be released from the kite. Sure you may lose a kite, but you will live to kite another day. Because of this safety I do not feel the kite is a death trap. I have to deal with the fact everyday that a kite I sell could under certain circumstances lead to death or serious injury. this is why I try my best to put the correct kite in peoples hands.

Insect0man - 2-2-2010 at 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bribe36
Now it's time to get the 14m. Anyone out there have one and want to share their thoughts?

I think it depends on your wind conditions and usage context.

I've been learning the 11m Neo2 in low winds typically 3 gusting to 15. While the 11m does "fly" in winds averaging in the advertised 4mph range, I'm finding that reverse launching in those low winds is impossible. It appears the weight of the kite is simply too much for a 3/4mph wind to allow the kite to lift off and upright itself. (maybe some pilot skill factors there...)

This is in comparison to the Hydra 350 and Scout 5m - both of which easily reverse launch in those conditions.

I think the weight factor would apply even more to the 14m. Probably worth keeping in mind...

acampbell - 2-2-2010 at 08:39 AM

Just to clarify, there is no problem with the current Neo i's relaunching when the safety is deployed. It is fully stalled and will stay on the ground but just stays erect on the ground, creating raw drag that would overpower the average stake in higher winds.

Landing it on its nose will accelerate it into the ground and cause it to bounce around like an angry child throwing a tantrum

No time bomb. just a pain in the ass and unfortunate in a day when dumping to safety on the average kite will turn it into falling laundry on a string.

Insect0man - 2-2-2010 at 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ
Sure you may lose a kite, but you will live to kite another day. Because of this safety I do not feel the kite is a death trap.

That'd be a nogo on a lake like 11 mile reservoir with ice fishermen doting the surface. Just cutting the thing loose would be a serious liability.

Again, not an issue for the Neo2's - but the responsiveness of HQ and its dealer network to this issue for existing customers is worth consideration by those pondering an investment in HQ product... given there are alternatives on the market.

Insect0man - 2-2-2010 at 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
No time bomb.

If joe beginner buys a used Neo1 11m, deploys it in gusty inland winds - and then relies upon the nonfunctional "safety" system to flag the kite, they (and whoever might be downwind of them) are going to be in for a nasty surprise.

I've utilized the Neo2's safety on several occasions. It does what it's supposed to - it kills the kite when I'm digging a trench with my nose while still strapped into my ATB.

From what I'm reading, the Neo1 would yield an entirely different result. That's not acceptable.

And for dealers to just say, well #@%$#! - you can just cut the kite loose. That's a big NO-GO.

Insect0man - 2-2-2010 at 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Landing it on its nose will accelerate it into the ground and cause it to bounce around like an angry child throwing a tantrum

I've found I can "land" the Neo2 11m on it's nose by flying it to the edge of the window, touching down the wingtip, and then gently rolling it over.

Quite controlled and no tantrum; and done intentionally to practice reverse launching... which, in the lower 4mph "flying" range, is thus far a real PITA - and likely an even bigger PITA for a 14m NeoII in the same conditions.

rocfighter - 2-2-2010 at 12:11 PM

I just read this whole thread. It starts off asking about the NeoII and turns into a dispute about NeoI's I hope something becomes of a retro or something. I do not own one of these kites but I suppose alot of people do. I bet HQ has this info and is considering a retro. But I could be wrong. Lets hope they do.
OK all done.

HQkiter - 3-2-2010 at 01:44 PM

As with any product there are always enhancements and improvements with each new production model. Since we live in the age of liability it is very difficult for a manufacturer to recommend after market modifications to their product when they have no control over how the modification is done. Any of us that have flown the past generations of Foil kites know that there is constant dialogue among flyers about what modifications can be done to the kite and how to upgrade older models as new versions come out. This is a user driven dialogue and allows flyers to discuss modifications and share tips without involving the actual manufacturer. Modifying an existing Neo to use the TDS line would be possible but would require adding bridle points in the center of the kite, and reinforcing those bridle points, and yes the new bar works with the old kite but there is nothing to attach the flagging line to at the kite end. Any bar works with either kite; I fly all my kites foil or LEI with a switchblade 3 bar just because that is what my brain is used to in an emergency situation, twice this year that has saved me from disaster when a newbie wrapped my lines with their kite. Ejecting is second nature as it should be for everyone…if you have not done it practice it.
I have to say this never ending tirade about the Neo 1 confusing. The Neo is a unique kite that should be looked at as a new design that requires the flyer to get used to it just like any other kite. Do we all not remember the Flysurfer Psycho? They didn’t perfect that till Gen 4. Gen 1-3 had various flying and flagging issues that we all discussed in the forums and chose which mods made the most sense for our particular use. Never did anyone ask FS to recall it or anything else? We as users just made it better and 3 years later they caught on. Cabrinha with the Switchblade 1, plagued with relaunch ,tuning and flagging issues, did we ask for a recall? No we thought it was amazing ,but knew it could be better.We learned from each other made suggestions and 14 months later Switchblade 2 was a big improvement. I could go on and since I watched the development cycle of many kites as a retailer for 15 years. If the Neo 1 should be called unsafe then you have to apply that label to every LEI out there prior to 2009. None of them had flagging lines that worked to 100% depower the kite. Thats why we all use someone to assist in launching and landing. Sure I can self launch or land any kite out there but its not a bright idea when at most kiteboarding locations there is usually someone to help you launch and land. Any flyer who does a self landing when there is someone there to catch the kite has bigger issues.
I logged over 200 hours last year flying Neo 1s. I am 145lbs and flew all the sizes including the 14m. Never did I find the kite unsafe. Yes it is different to land than an LEI, it is NOT an Lei. Yes its lands differently than an open cell foil…it is not one of those either. You pull the safety the kite flys down in reverse and rests on the ground. You pull one side line in grab the loop in the line where it attaches to the flying line,release the bar ,walk toward the kite and the kite flags out and lays there like an air mattress, just like every peter lynn and flysurfer used too. If you don’t want to grab the line and pull on it then hook your safety leash too it. If you wanna get high tech put a metal ring on the end of one of the outer lines to hook to. Another note , Neo1 and 2 will reverse relaunch at the bottom of their wind range you just have to reach out further on the steering lines the lighter the wind gets and pull in slowly instead of jerking it. The NEO 2 14m is much faster and will downloop on transition nicely without dragging the tip like a Neo 1. I have been the only one out flying at 8mph while all the flysurfers and Oz ultralights could not get their kites in the air. It’s a new tool with its own set of rules and its own set of skills, learn how it works and it will open up many locations that you have been unable to access with an LEI due to worries about puncturing bladders and figuring out what to do with your pump when you are launching that epic downwinder. Its not a beginner kite..there is no such thing. Thats what trainer kites are for. As a PASA and IKO instructor who has taught 100s of students i can tell you no one is ready for what a full size kite can do until they spend the time practicing with a trainer and hopefully with an instructor.

WolfWolfee - 3-2-2010 at 02:26 PM

Nice speech but the reality in the world of land use there is no recognized training available to my knowledge in North America. We fly fixed bridle and de-powers not LEI's etc although some do. I agree they are different than anything I had flown before and as you state every kite is different. Modifications shouldn't be an issue if we got some of our great shops out there certified to do the work. Making a product better with the help of flyers you would think would be a plus.

Just my two cents worth.

Insect0man - 3-2-2010 at 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HQkiter
only one out flying at 8mph while all the flysurfers

But the advertised wind range for the Neo 8,11, and 14 goes down to 4mph.

While the Hydra 350 and Scout 5m both easily reverse launch at 4mph, as advertised - my experience is the Neo 11m does not. I generally have to resort to dragging one tip of the kite in order to reposition and relaunch. It's a real PITA.

Got any video of folks boarding with one at 4mph? Or reverse launching?

Wouldn't 8mph be a little more honest? It does reverse launch at that wind speed.

_thephantom_ - 4-2-2010 at 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HQkiterAs with any product there are always enhancements and improvements with each new production model. Since we live in the age of liability it is very difficult for a manufacturer to recommend after market modifications to their product when they have no control over how the modification is done.

Flysurfer publish exactly this information for free and how about offering an upgrade service, it helps everybody. The NEO2 is an update to correct an obvious failure in the NEO1, thats not merely an improvement its a mandatory safety upgrade.

Quote:

Originally posted by HQkiter
I have to say this never ending tirade about the Neo 1 confusing. The Neo is a unique kite that should be looked at as a new design that requires the flyer to get used to it just like any other kite. Do we all not remember the Flysurfer Psycho? They didn’t perfect that till Gen 4. Gen 1-3 had various flying and flagging issues that we all discussed in the forums and chose which mods made the most sense for our particular use. Never did anyone ask FS to recall it or anything else? We as users just made it better and 3 years later they caught on.

The NEO is hardly a new kite its a closed cell foil, much the same as a pulse.
As such. HQ in there wisdom made the NEO1 with the same systems as first seen on the psycho 1, in other words allowing the kite to land using the brake. The problem exhibited by the NEO 1 is exactly what was on the psycho 1 and subsequently modified and refined . Is it not a given that the buying public expect that a 2009 model kite is up to date with modern safety safety systems and is not a throwback to 1994. Thats bull#@%$#!, HQ copied the OZONE system and now are copying the FLYSURFER System, its not up to the buying public to give the feedback, we are purchasing the cumulative knowledge of what has gone before. Buyer beware indeed, HQ must think we are all stupid. FLYSURFER has issued modifications and updates to kites when a safety issue has been found, even to the point of free repair and modification.. How about it HQ?

Quote:

Originally posted by HQkiterCabrinha with the Switchblade 1, plagued with relaunch ,tuning and flagging issues, did we ask for a recall? No we thought it was amazing ,but knew it could be better.We learned from each other made suggestions and 14 months later Switchblade 2 was a big improvement. I could go on and since I watched the development cycle of many kites as a retailer for 15 years. If the Neo 1 should be called unsafe then you have to apply that label to every LEI out there prior to 2009. None of them had flagging lines that worked to 100% depower the kite. Thats why we all use someone to assist in launching and landing. Sure I can self launch or land any kite out there but its not a bright idea when at most kiteboarding locations there is usually someone to help you launch and land. Any flyer who does a self landing when there is someone there to catch the kite has bigger issues.

Again you are talking crap, i did not buy a 1994 kite , I brought a modern 2009 model kite which is ranked amongst its peers.
Further more I note that you have logged in this forum under several names, however the post that sticks in my mind was the one made under the name Kter Guy on the 9-3-2008 i which you wrote a glowing review, so much so that this influenced me to purchase an 11 and a 14. Such is the power of positive reviews.

In this post I quote what YOU had to say

"For the first time I can show up alone at any location self launch my kite safely, ride for hours then land the kite anywhere I need to."

and

"a fail safe safety system that brings the kite down under control and in a smooth controllable manner with out all the flapping and spinning associated with many companies flagging systems."

Clearly you have changed your mind in the intervening time.

Lets face it Craig, the NEO1 is a great kite, with an appalling methodology around safe usage.
It is poorly designed, poorly thought out and it is a lemon. A 14m lemon.
HQ built a kite with safety systems exactly like a kite made in 1993 and whilst it flys well it is as safe as any kite made in 1993, unfortunately its the year 2009 and the kite buying public, who are influenced heavily by manufactures claims and reviews deserve better.

If its not a beginner kite and we have to learn an entire new methodology around landing safely, just what was your target market? Not Flysurfer, they are light years ahead it seems, not open cell foil users, at least the safety system works on those due to design, cant possibly have been modern LEI users nor ARC users, why would they compromise there standards? HQ built a kite to compete head on with the best of 2009, unfortunately they fell short and equalled the best that 1993 could produce. Realizing their mistake, HQ have abandoned the OZONE and copied the FLYSURFER, maybe we should all just wait a few more years for HQ to get it right.

And thanks for all your landing tips, maybe it would go a long way to publish these in your manuals, pull this attach that, find a friend

HQ answer is simply, oh well buy the new model, we have done better this time, silly me.
Shame on you and tell me why do you use at least 4 alias to post on here? with your pro HQ rhetoric. People like me tend to believe you.

Insect0man - 4-2-2010 at 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by _thephantom_
however the post that sticks in my mind was the one made under the name Kter Guy on the 9-3-2008 i which you wrote a glowing review, so much so that this influenced me to purchase an 11 and a 14. Such is the power of positive reviews.

Yep. I was influenced the same way by that review. I'm just glad I was able to see the threads here and elsewhere discussing the Neo1 safety issues and held out for a Neo2.

I was also influenced by the HQ claim of a 4mph low end specified operational wind speed for the 8, 11, and 14m neos - and frankly, 4mph seems to be marketing BS. In the threads here on PKF regarding depower kite operation, the general consensus seems to be that 8mph is the speed at which depower kites become functionally usable.

I like rooting for the underdog, and that's one of the reasons I went HQ - but if I knew then what I know now regarding the pattern of dishonesty exhibited by Craig logging in, NOT IDENTIFYING HIMSELF AS THE U.S.A. HQ DISTRIBUTOR, and posting his "reviews", I would have given HQ second thoughts.

The internet enables consumers to stick together and fight back.

C'mon HQ you can dooo it!

pigryder - 4-2-2010 at 10:21 AM

:eureka: thephantom why dont you just sell the kite for 100 bucks and be done with it? I know I'm tired of hearing about it.......

Insect0man - 4-2-2010 at 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pigryder
:eureka: thephantom why dont you just sell the kite for 100 bucks and be done with it?

Why should he have to eat a loss on a product that does not perform as advertised?

The Neo 11m is advertised as having specified usable wind range of between 4 and 27mph.

One of the Neo's advertised product features is landing without assistance; and multiple users have reported the product is not safely landable without assistance on the upper end of that range.

If I wrote software that similarly failed to perform to spec - I wouldn't be writing software for very long.

Bullshyte is better for hiding behind than standing upon, HQ; so stop the shuck and jive dance and act like a mature vendor who takes responsibility for their faux pas.

pigryder - 4-2-2010 at 10:41 AM

You buy anything new as soon as its in your possesion its worth considerably less, I dont want to be part of the argument but if I had something I didn't like or didn't work for me I get the hell rid of it :kiss:

Insect0man - 4-2-2010 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pigryder
You buy anything new as soon as its in your possesion its worth considerably less

Yes, especially when the product does not perform up to specification.

Especially when the shortfall is safety related.

Maybe HQ would prefer the industry be regulated by a gooberment agency such as the NTSB with mandatory safety recalls?

All it will take is one serious, highly publicized, equipment failure related accident.

If industry vendors can't regulate themselves, then gooberment bureaucrats are always happy to oblige and fill the regulatory void.

_thephantom_ - 4-2-2010 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pigryder
:eureka: thephantom why dont you just sell the kite for 100 bucks and be done with it? I know I'm tired of hearing about it.......

sure you want it?, i see your in the market for one...... just kidding, i would not sell it even to you.

If you are tired of hearing about it... it means its does not apply to you, so.... this is a forum .. right?

If feedback improves the product, raises the standards and informs the consumer, i would far rather say so, its my right - and yours to ignore me.

HQkiter - 4-2-2010 at 03:14 PM

What information are you talking about? As a Psycho 1, 2 and 3 registered owner I sure didnt get anything. I looked through all the service archives and documents on the flysurfer site and couldnt find what you mentioned.The only upgrade I have seen offered is when they make a line or connector available that has been shown to break in real world use. I do remember a specific dealer offering upgrades because i had them convert my P3 but that was not through Flysurfer the company. There is no failure in the Neo1 , there are 100s of happy users who still have the kite. I still personally buggy with my 8m. I have seen newbies fly the kite successfully after a day of training with a trainer kite. Sure everything improves as a model changes.It will again next year I am sure. We at HQ are very open to all input both positive and negative and want to hear it all so that the products can develop and improve.

What 4 Aliases are you talking about ? Prior to July of 2009 I did not work for HQ and was Kter Guy on the forum. When i started working for the company I changed it to HQkiter and have stated in several previous posts that I work for HQ. Am i supposed to take out a full page ad in the New York Times?I have listed my phone,name and email contacts several times . Phantom

Finally , yes wolf it would be a great market for repair facilities to offer an upgrade service just like they did for flysurfer. Again that was a dealer not the manufacturer that offered that service. Since the demand seems to be there, go for it.
I am confused that you have never heard of IKO in terms of land based kite training. They just finished an instructor training course in CO for snowkiting and will be holding another at the Superfly Open at Powder Mountain in march. They also so have specific guidelines and skill level certification for landkiting that have been in place for years. Every PASA certified school in the country must teach powerkite training as their first lesson. Most schools finish up that training session with a demonstration of how to use those new skills in the buggy or on the landboard. I know that all my students get in a buggy and on a landboard before they get near the water. The skills you learn on land make learning on water much easier.

Anyone who recommends a beginner get a depower foil as their first kite instead of a trainer kite confuses me. Over and over again I have seen student progress safely by practicing with a trainer kite even to the point of riding a buggy, landboard,snowboard or skis on ground or packed snow with that 3M trainer without the issues involved with strapping on a harness and hooking in. Learn to walk before you run and you will avoid all the common mistakes. To all the forum users who have contacted me about how great their Neo1 was and are confused by this thread , thank you.

WolfWolfee - 4-2-2010 at 05:37 PM

I didn't say I did not hear about them but admit I have not looked at their site in years. When I did visit their site there is nothing still really available in Canada other than Quebec. They like most seem to be more water based but did see the basic ground course (very basic) they offer and snow kiting. PASA has nothing available that I could find in Canada and again water based.

_thephantom_ - 4-2-2010 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HQkiter
We at HQ are very open to all input both positive and negative and want to hear it all so that the products can develop and improve.

Great here is your opportunity to shine then is it not?

If you read my posts you will see a history of enthusiasm and support for the product. Then after using the product for some time, it began to fail for me. This is not operator error this is failure of the product.

Its my opinion and the forum gives me an opportunity to voice it.

No I dont work for OZONE, FLYSURFER or any other kite company, im a consumer, the bottom of the heap really it seems. I just pay for it based on trust.

My experience with the NEO1 is that it fails to land safely in winds over 15 mph. That is backed up by other posts on this and other forums and interestingly is confirmed by your own dealer network as a problem [on this forum]

I had also failures with chicken loop and deteriorating lines.

Im not alone, on the HQ forum there is some poor other soul in the same boat !!!

http://www.invento-hq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1639...

So im done too discussing this, at your 145lbs you dont worry me none

.

And for the record, i went back and purchased a best Kahona 13.5, best damn kite i have ever owned

.

Would i use the NEO again, sure i have said plenty of times great kite, lousy features.
Would I buy a NEO 2 - suprisingly YES as it appears to be sorted in its weaknesses

Why not post up the line plan and some pics of the reinforcing required to upgrade and i will do it myself at no cost to you or HQ. Then I will use it.

I note that Angus has mentioned he was going to do some research and perhaps get a possibility of a modification. Now thats customer service and a person who has the best interests of the consumer at heart.

Instead of acting like a 5 year old, why do you not lead by example and get on top of it.

I would pay out of my own pocket to have these things modified.

Is that not what its all about proactive input. You really need to get some PR help.

And sorry its 3 alias on here and 1 on foilzone, my mistake.

fodendeyo - 5-2-2010 at 02:52 AM

Interesting points of view above.
I have had a Neo 11m for over a year and a 6m for about a year. Landing in a strong wind is not usually a prob tho if someone is there to catch I will use them.
I land it at very edge of the wind window, and grab the break line. The kite lies flat on the ground and I walk up to it while holding tension on the break line (left line if landing to the left). This is the same technique I use on my Ozone kites if the wind is too strong. The advantage of the Neo is it does not flap around like the Ozone once it is down and is easy to initially get to and hold. (In light to moderate I have got lazy and use the breaks straight downwind and walk to the kite while holding tension on both lines - not recommended!) (My packing up is easier now after a pointer from Angus in another thread.)
Under 10 knots the 11m has plenty of speed for the buggy. Although I am still learning to kitesurf the 11m works well from 12-18knots. As I get better I think it will be ok to 20 knots (I am only 68kg). I use it on the second set of knots on the main lines (handle end).
I did not like the original chicken loop and replaced them with Ozone Megatron loops.

HQkiter - 5-2-2010 at 08:15 AM

I think fodeneyo reflects well the input I have received from most Neo users.
Phantom has a legit point though and when the Neo2 first came out several of our team riders looked into modifying their neo 1s so they could use the new flagging system as a backup . As of this point I have not seen a successful refit... will look at it again though and am willing to try it on my own neo 1 8m and since I can lay both kites out side by side would be glad to shoot some photos and see if anyone has suggestions. The issue seems to be the weight of the reinforcement needed to attach the flagging line to is changing the way the kite flys.
On a separate note I have a team rider who removed the new flagging system from his Neo2 to make the kite loop faster . He says he is so used to flagging the Neo1 like fondeneyo describes that he would rather do that with the 2 as well and without the flagging line he can loop the kite faster. This is also the same guy who loves a 1:1 bar with pulleys at the bar and 17m lines for riding strapless on a surfboard with his Neo. What will they think of next?

mgatc - 5-2-2010 at 08:47 AM

I apologize in advance for supporting the hijack.

My first "real" kites were the 8m and 11m Neo. I decided on these for a number of reasons, but mainly because I liked the idea of a multi-use kite and I wanted to keep my quiver a reasonable size. (OK, I have failed miserably on the latter)

Yes, I read the previously mentioned "review/marketing pitch" of the Neo on this forum and this certainly had an influence on me. I followed up by making quite a few phone calls with questions on the Neos' to Angus of Coastal Wind Sports. Angus had direct, hands-on, knowledge of the kite and he provided me with a spot on assessment.

I learned how to kite on these two sails. Were they perfect? No. Is any kite perfect? Probably not. These kites have a lot of good qualities. Light wind capability (certainly not 4 kts! Kind of like advertising a knife that "never needs sharpening") grunt, ability to go high upwind, ease of layout and launch, and ease of landing under "normal" conditions.

There are two distinct negatives that I have found with the kites. The tendency of both the 8m & 11m to overfly the window at the zenith. This is exacerbated in inland, gusty winds. This can be mitigated however by keeping the kite moving side to side at the zenith and/or adding power. Adapting to this is just part of the learning curve of any new sail in my opinion and it speaks to kites ability to stay at the edge of the window.

The most significant negative is the aforementioned issues of landing the kite in higher winds. I will say that the kite has never failed to fall immediately to the ground when I have pulled the release. The problems occur after this when the kite remains fully inflated and bounces up and down with a considerable amount of force. I almost always kite with someone else and will normally have them unzip the deflate zipper which quickly makes the kite manageable. I have not tried landing nose down or pulling in a side line to make the kite flag out. These sound like reasonable accomodations that I will experiment with. Admittedly, this would have been nice to know from the onset and would have been part of the learning curve.This sounds kind of like back-stalling to land a PL. It pulls like a horse until you grab a side line and walk toward the kite to flag it.

This landing issue has much greater consequences when using the kite on water. If you pull the release, you are going downwind. Period. Only option in anything other than an on-shore wind, cut loose and swim. I find having only one "out" to be unacceptable and therefore, do not use or recommend using the kite on water under certain wind conditions. I am not saying that the kite cannot be used on water. As with any kite, you should know the tendencies/limitations of the kite you are using and factor these into the decision of whether or not to fly.

Do I think that I have been screwed over by HQ because the kite won't fly at the advertised bottom end of the range or because it should not be used on water under certain conditions? No I do not. First of all, I did what I consider adequate due diligence before deciding to purchase a Neo. Secondly, not many kites fly at their advertised bottom end and the ones that do don't fly very well. Third, despite not using the kite on the water, I have had many hours of fun, safe, kiting using the Neos' on the ATB and the buggy. Am I stuck with a lemon? I don't think so. I believe that I can sell this kite with a clear conscience after having informed the buyer of whatever risky tendencies/quirks that the kite posesses. No different than I would when selling any other kite.

Would I like to have a Neo II? Heck yes! Better performance. Improved safetly. Easier re-launch. Would I like to have a PL Charger? Heck yes? Better performance. Improved safetly. Easier re-launch. Does this mean the Neo I and the Synergy completely suck and the manufacturers should make good on them? I don't think so. I do think that a new thread addressing all kite builders accountablilty might be lively topic.

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum topic. :lol:

acampbell - 5-2-2010 at 09:09 AM

Mel, I have been thinking about you a lot with regard to this thread and am pleased to see your post. Clear and even handed as always. One of the the many points we deliberated on when considering these over others was the slightly better low end of the Neos. I think you anticipated modest and light winds over heavier and gustier that might have led you to arcs at the time.

For the record everybody, in this photo album there are some pics of Jan-Hendrick Junker of HQ flying a Neo 8 in 4, yes 4 mph at HQ Demo Day '08 on Jekyll Island. Yes he had to run to launch and inflate it, but when inflated he flew it static without running around. Later in the afternoon when the winds built to 8-9, he got up on a skim board with the 11m Neo- downwind a but but riding none-the-less. No reasonable experienced kite could expect much better than this. I remember some FS riders there who were clearly impressed.

http://www.coastalwindsports.com/HQDemoDayJekyll08.html

stetson05 - 5-2-2010 at 11:29 AM

sorry, my comments belonged on a thread about a Neo 1 not a 2 I removed them.

acampbell - 5-2-2010 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stetson05

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell

I have concluded that the only safe way to put a Neo 1 down in higher winds is with a helper at the edge of the window. Or maybe if you have a pole to back it on to.

The 5th line safety on the Neo 2 is of course effective and un-ambiguous.

I have had good luck putting the kite down by pulling the safety. Then as the kite has decreased power I haul in on one of the brake lines until the loop at the end of I think its called the leader line. I let go of the bar and this flags the kite out perpendicular to the wind direction. That seems to work ok for me. I think I read about doing that on here.

I started to try that one time an felt it ready to spin and backed off, thinking it would power up in death spiral, but Craig at HQ tells me he does that successfully with but a spin or two before it flags. I will try it.

Insect0man - 8-2-2010 at 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Jan-Hendrick Junker of HQ flying a Neo 8 in 4, yes 4 mph at HQ Demo Day '08 on Jekyll Island. Yes he had to run to launch and inflate it, but when inflated he flew it static without running around.

Was he able to demonstrate reverse launching at 4mph?

HQ needs to attend to some minor details which would aleviate some performance related confusion ---

On the HQ web marketing chart, the Neo2 8, 11, and 14 all list lower wind range of 4mph:

Whereas the HQ instruction manual for the same products lists a higher (evidently more truthful) speed:

Why doesn't the marketing material agree with the product manual?:puzzled:

In any event none of this has shaken my observation that, despite a few glitches in the HQ business processes and documentation, they produce a quality product for a competitive price.

In fact, my own criticisms aside - I'm so satisfied with the HQ product that I've gone ahead and ordered an 8m Neo2 to supplement the 11m. :yes:

Yes - Hello, my name is Bill and I'm a Kite-O-holic.

bribe36 - 10-2-2010 at 03:23 PM

Does anyone remember what my original question was?:o:o

Maven454 - 10-2-2010 at 03:32 PM

You wanted someone to answer your question?!? That's silly :D.

acampbell - 10-2-2010 at 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bribe36
Does anyone remember what my original question was?:o:o

Quote:

yugga - 18-2-2010 at 06:20 AM

the neo1 11m is suitable for land based traction in light to moderate winds. once the wind gets powerful enough for kitesurfing it is dangerous to launch, and the safety system is ineffective. Therefore this kite is unsuitable for water use, contrary to the bumpf. HQ appear to have addressed these problems in the NEO2. I am yet to try one. I no longer use my NEO1 due to safety concerns.

acampbell - 18-2-2010 at 07:06 AM

I have never heard of launching problems with the Neo 1 in higher winds. Just launch like an ARC and fly to the edge of the window. I don't like the safety on the 1 and I have had some eye-opening moments with it but it's a bit harsh to condemn it altogether. It can be put down safely in high winds if you flag it by a wing tip, but that ends with a spin, roll and often a tangle or at least twists. Always and ignominious ending. Better is to land at the edge with helper to grab a wing tip.

It's worth noting that at least one HQ team rider has removed the 5th line on the Neo 2 altogether to reduce weight and drag. So it's a matter of informed choice. ( But I sure would keep the new safety)

yugga - 18-2-2010 at 10:46 AM

i think its a different ball game when youre a landkiter.

also i disagree that you can launch like that straight out of the bag. unless its fully inflated (which only happens after take off) its very difficult to launch from the side of the wind window.

i really do believe that the HQ hype was misleading when advertising this as a highly suitable kitesurfing kite.

As i said before, for land kiting its fine. i purchased it for kitesurfing and its not really fit for purpose due to safety issues. if i had used it in places with less space, i could have been seriously injured. i got dragged quite far even after pulling the top hat. luckily there was nothing in my way.

yugga - 18-2-2010 at 10:58 AM

you yourself say your comfort tops out at 18mph. I am much lighter than you at 165kg, but the kite only really becomes good enough to kitesurf at that speed or just below. So a water based safe windrange of 16-18mph is not really much!! i can appreciate that you like it for your buggy. i am terrified of it at the wind speeds required for kitesurfing.

Quote:
Originally posted by acampbell

I have not flown the 14. I don't know how much or if the lower end is extended from the 6-8 mph of the 11m, but it would not be much lower with that weight. I think a 14 would be fine for a big rider on water but a bit much for the bug. My comfort with the 11m tops out at about 18mph of wind speed, when I start feeling a draft under my 210 lb. arse.

acampbell - 18-2-2010 at 11:10 AM

Yeah I am not a water rider but can use my imagination and understand the issues in typical wind ranges for the water.

I'm going to have the guys at ProKiteSurf quote me on adding center bridle points for a 5th line.

acampbell - 2-3-2010 at 04:04 PM

My 11 m Neo is off to Jeff Howard and the guys at ProkiteSurf / www.fixmykite.com for a retro-fit of the new Neo 2 5th line safety. Jeff quoted me "around $12" for each of the three bridle points to be added to the sail. This is the only hard part requiring special skill; the rest can be done by most tinkerers and I have the specs.

I am going to have him sew up all the bridle segments and line segments plus add necessary hardware (Heavy amsteel-like dyneema for the bar segment, steel rings, stopper balls, etc.) so I will soon be able to report a complete price for the full-turn-key conversion.

I have most all the necessary specs for all size Neos and have shared them with Jeff, so that he should be able to take care of anyone else that wants to have the conversion done. Once I have the fix in and tested, I will reach out to all my past Neo customers to offer special arrangements.

Maz - 11-4-2010 at 01:48 AM

I find the Neo 14m a great kite and have no problems using it on land 15mph and over. Had a realy good session and after packing up learnt that the wind had reached 21mph. I think it depends on your style, and if you like real powered up riding, then youll find it ok, but not every lies the powered up thing!

Regarding the safety, I have both neo 1's and 2's. I just don't have any problems with the neo 1's at all, even in stronger winds. Yep there's a bit of pull when you pull the safety. Maybe enough to pull out the ground stake, but not enough to pull me forward or off my feet like others on this thread have reported. For it to do that, the kite must of been flown in stupid wnds.
If you fly safe and know your limitation, you will never get your knickers in a twist. If your not confident at self landing, get an aid as you would with an LEI Regardless of the advertising spiel. I can't believe anyone having problems with the launch as the kite tends not to power up until it's filled up and taken full form, the only way I can imagine is if you take the kite out in stupid not recommended winds! I can only speak from experience!
What I find useful us a cork screw stake, that I use for both new 1 & 2's in all wind conditions without any problems... It holds the neo1, 11m in 20mph.
I would say to anyone, try these kites, they are great. Get yourself a cork screw stake for the neo 1's as the residual power after pull the safety will disslodge the provided stake in higher winds ( but still can't imagine anyone being dragged arround whilst the safety gas been deployed unless your under 3stones and have twigs for arms and legs).
It does appear that others on this thread have alteria motives Reading through the vicious attacks which I just can't relate to from my own experience of these kites.
My favourite kite:
6-18mph neo 14m on land
18-25mph neo 11m on land
24mph upwards 8m on land(it just loves to br thrown around)
I will be taking these kites on the water next week and looking forward to it. There's plenty of 8,11,14m neo users on water!
Happy flying all
Maz

acampbell - 11-4-2010 at 06:04 AM

Thanks for your well reasoned post.
I have the official HQ specifications for the Neo 2 bridles. They provided me the measurements but are distancing themselves from the project and basically say that we are on our own. This does not surprise me as they have not put the R&D into it and I am OK with that. Any mods will of course void any warranty and this is normal with any product. (Conspiracy theorists please take it somewhere else)

The bridle segment proportions appear to be inconsistent across the different sizes, but HQ insists they are correct because the kite proportions are not consistent across the size range (different A/R and so forth). HQ in fact insists that these measurements "will not work" for the Neo 1 for this reason. So I suggest using them as a starting point only. I have had my Neo 1 11m modded according to the Neo 2 11m specifications and will likely test it again today.

In my first test of this modification to the 11m Neo 1, I was trying to launch in 6-8mph, which was possible with the original 11m Neo 1, but the added weight of the 5th line made it impossible. I suspect that the modification has robbed it of 2 kts or so on the bottom end. For this reason I will find a way to make the 5th line bridle easily detachable for light winds. With both safety systems in available, I suspect that the modded Neo 1 will be a much more versatile kite than the Neo 2. The original safety system is entirely reliable and useful (easier re-launch too) in winds under 15mph.

I will be looking to see that the bridle segments are proportioned so that they are equally stressed when deployed to safety, and adjust if needed.

Prokitesurf charges only about $15 per bridle attachment point, and charged me $135 for the complete retrofit, with all components ( 5th line, stopper balls, steel rings, braided / sewn eyelets, sewn bridle segments, attachment points) just as constructed for the Neo 2.

I will share what I find out about the bridle proportions today. I have a customer's Neo 1 8m in for testing but have not modded it yet. If anyone else experiments and finds anything useful, please let me know so that we may share it with the kite community.

If anyone wants the existing and un-tested dimensions for the modifications, contact me off list.

Maz - 11-4-2010 at 12:14 PM

Good luck with your further trials. One idea could be to try lighter dynema for the modded briddle section. I too am lookng into adding a 5th line But using existing briddle points and will try a 4 point attachment on the sail. The 2 centre leading edge attachment points and the 2 centre trailing attachment points. I thought that running a length of dynema from the front left point to the rear left point and again the same on the right hand side. Both lengths of line would then run loosley through a steel ring, so that when the safety is deployed and the lines pull tight, the load automitically evens out across the 4 connection points. then attaching the 5th line to the steel ring. Let me know if you can understand my idea and if not il send you a drawing / diagram.
As this will be used as a secondary saftey, we can presume that the kite will have already been some what stalled. Therefore, the load being put onto these attachment points should be minimal. This is the last result saftey, I can't imagine these points giving way under the strain, but if the do go, you only loose the kite and not yourself!
Good winds,
maz

Maz - 11-4-2010 at 11:20 PM

I thought ye anti neoist's that are complaining the safety on the 1st generation would like to read this thread and see if you can find any similarities!

http://forum.kitecrowd.com/kite-landboarding/landing-securin...

fodendeyo - 11-9-2010 at 03:59 AM

Hmmm - I don't understand why you don't talk to HQ Phantom - we probably can't change anything here and we seem to be repeating the same thing. I have 2 Neo 1's - my choice to purchase..... and I did think it was a risk to go with a first version (of any product!) Would I go 1st ver again... probably not. I find them no more difficult to land than my other kites in high wind tho in lower wind it is better to use high wind landing techniques as sometimes landing on the brake lines does bounce the kite. I have also got better at tuning them for different winds via the knot settings.

The one disagreement I have with a couple reviews I read is that I think they are not a beginners kite. (lifty and powerful) I use the 6 and 11 in the water and on land and the 11 is a powerful buggy engine that does not need a lot of wind. (the 6 is a fun kite to fly!)

I was keen to get an 8m Neo to fill a gap but ended up getting a 10m PL Charger. Still haven't sorted the landing properly on that kite - but do I blame Peter Lynn? Darn I got a first ver of their new bridle system .....will I ever learn...)

Ah well ... and yes I guess I am stuck with my Neo 11!

ICTKITEFLYER - 11-9-2010 at 04:06 AM

I am looking to make a good deal on my 14m Neo 2. I am 6'3 230lbs and have flown it in 20mph didn't have any problems had it tuned right for nice lofty jumps on the ground. Never been out on the water.

acampbell - 11-9-2010 at 05:16 AM

I have successfully modded an 8 and 11m Neo 1 for 5th line and have the specs, if anyone wants. They taco on the 5th line as well or better than the Neo 2 and with both safety systems in place make for a very versatile and well mannered kite in a variety of winds.

The 14 is more of a water kite for heavier riders 200 # +. With it's added weight won't give much more low end than the 11m, just a bit more grunt.

fodendeyo - 11-9-2010 at 11:57 AM

I would be keen to get the specs for the mod Angus. Can you post a diagram with measurements/instructions?

Thanks.