So I set a goal to model up my own buggy in SolidWorks. I already have a decent frame done and began to think about different options I could do with
wheels and whatnot. To all of you guys that have designed your own buggies, did you make a 3d model of it using some kind of CAD software first?
Also, does anyone know of any way I can get models of different hubs and tires so that I don't have to mock them up myself?BeamerBob - 3-2-2010 at 10:29 AM
I've done some cad work for some buggy guys, but haven't done a full buggy yet. I've been thinking more and more of a custom buggy lately though.
Wheels and most other buggy parts are quick and easy in 3-d. It's the side rails that are more difficult. You really don't need the details built
into the 3d model for wheels and things, just the basic dimensions to reflect ride position and seat height above the floor. I'm an autocad guy btw.Jovver - 3-2-2010 at 10:51 AM
Yeah I guess it wouldn't be too big of a deal to make the hubs and tires as well, just thought it would save a bit of time. BB, have you ever tried
using SolidWorks? The 3d modeling is so user friendly. I used Autocad back in HS for a drafting class, but used Solidworks throughout college and
now almost every day at work. So it's nothing special right now, but here's what I have so far. I'm most likely going to have to change dimensions
once I figure out what wheels to use. The fork will be interesting as well if I want adjustment of foot pegs and front wheel axle.BeamerBob - 3-2-2010 at 11:48 AM
Nothing wrong with Solidworks, I've just never had access to the software. I was a cad instructor using Autocad products for years and then worked
for a land developer using Civil 3d and autocad. I'm now an independent contractor but my software is supplied by the land developer. When at the
CC, I had the full suite of software products for AutoCad including inventor, but never had time or reason to dive into it.
Nice work on your buggy so far. Keep us posted on your progress.Jovver - 3-2-2010 at 01:08 PM
Well it was a kind of slow day at work today so I was able to sink a few hours into this. The rear axle went through a bit of a change. The frame
was extended, and the rear axle is now angled and returns to horizontal before the wheel mount. Here's the final product so far!
Front:
Pic removed.
Rear:
Pic removed.Maven454 - 3-2-2010 at 01:09 PM
Have to see it from the top to be sure, but that axle looks short to me.Jovver - 3-2-2010 at 01:18 PM
Sure thing Maven, that rear axle is currently just under 62" wide.
Pic removed.Maven454 - 3-2-2010 at 01:23 PM
Longer than it looked from the rear quarter.Jovver - 3-2-2010 at 01:27 PM
Yeah the whole thing looks small because its all about perspective, it's hard to visualize how big it actually is because it's just a 3d model
floating in open space. Its a really big bug though, you can kind of estimate the rest of the sizing based on proportion to the rear axle. The front
axle is 12" wide and the side rails are like 24" apart. I guess I was kinda going for the standard Flexi bug just blown up a bit for us big guys.Maven454 - 3-2-2010 at 01:33 PM
Right, I was more thinking about proportions, but with the top view added in, I realized that those were better than I thought.Jovver - 3-2-2010 at 02:05 PM
Playing with some colors:
Pic removed.acampbell - 3-2-2010 at 02:45 PM
Nice. Curious why the bend in the axle? (as opposed to the side-rails coming down to meet a straight axle)BeamerBob - 3-2-2010 at 02:49 PM
That's my thought too. You are going to the trouble to bend the axle to come up and bend the rear of your side rails to come up and to what
advantage? Like Angus said, keep your axle straight and send your side rails straight down to it. You're making me want to finish the bug I have
started now.acampbell - 3-2-2010 at 03:22 PM
Jeez when I took drafting in HS it was with a T-square and a #2 pencil. That CAD stuff is cool.flexiblade - 3-2-2010 at 07:18 PM
So are you going to print that out with a 3-d printer? Just messing with you - nice design system - quick and efficient. With some clamps coming off
the frame to the axle those angles on the axle will come in handy to adjust the height for different sized tires. Just loosen the clamp and rotate
the axle. Longer on the axle will work better too - 5' 6" is good 6' is better. Also 2' from seat to axle helps stabilize for slides. Think about
the curves in your bug in terms of how difficult they will be to actually make. An angle bent is easier than a curve achieved. Right now on my bug I
am trying to utilize a clamping system for the down tube where it connects to the frame by using something similar to a latch found on a tool box. I
figure 2 of these will create even tension over the clamping area - and be much easier to apply and disengage compared to the bolting system (4 bolts
in a very awkward location) that I am currently using.popeyethewelder - 4-2-2010 at 03:44 AM
I have never had the luxury of 3d models, or being able to CAD....so I have to do what I can do, and that is draw a full scale layout on the floor,
plan and side elevation, this helps when it comes to bending the tube and keeping everything square when you start to fix the side rails to the axle,
and swan neck to the front end.
I have used an axle similar to yours, http://pic7.piczo.com/Popeyethewelder?g=50016016 although mine is in the horizontal position or just slightly lowered, you have to make very
strong clamps to hold this though, I also use the same clamping system on the Dominators.
Always interesting to see new idea and how they evolve, keep plugging at itheliboy50 - 4-2-2010 at 03:57 AM
Mine uses a drop axle and integrated spacer on a vertical plate with go-kart hubs. 5/8" X 6" bolt through the hub holds it on. I'm not a real big
fan of internally threaded rear axles, mostly I think because of my complete inability to get threaded inserts welded in squarely. I also prefer the
way I did it as I think it is easier to get a bent axle bolt out and I don't have to worry about damaging internal threads. That's what's fun about
this kind of topic though- seeing what others come up with.rocfighter - 4-2-2010 at 04:34 AM
WOW I just took some old pipe I had put it in the bender and played around till I had something that would work for me. What you have takes all the
guess work out of it and is really cool.
So you can do more than look at kites and email on computers? :eureka:Jovver - 4-2-2010 at 08:13 AM
Wow guys, thanks for all the comments and suggestions. It's really what I like to hear so that I can make my designs better. (although sometimes it
feels like I should wear a steel cup before every design review session)
A lot of you have been commenting on the angled rear axle... the reasoning behind this was to just try something different. This project is just
that... a project. I don't plan on making this thing for a while, as the money is not there and I don't have any welding experience or the resources
to learn. It's just really nice that I can simply tweak my CAD drawing by changing a few dimensions and seeing the result within moments.
Quote:
I have used an axle similar to yours, http://pic7.piczo.com/Popeyethewelder?g=50016016 although mine is in the horizontal position or just slightly lowered, you have to make very
strong clamps to hold this though, I also use the same clamping system on the Dominators.
I knew I saw that axle somewhere! And yes, I did consider how the axle would be mounted. I was thinking maybe the frame could just be welded to the
axle that way I don't have to worry about clamps? Granted this would give the rear axle a fixed position, but would that be so bad if I plan on
staying with a single set of wheels? I will also have to figure out some way to adjust the down tube, as the swan neck is currently fixed to the
frame.
Quote:
So are you going to print that out with a 3-d printer? Just messing with you
Lol, that would be absolutely ridiculous, but insanely awesome at the same time. I should push for a 3d printer here at work!
Quote:
So you can do more than look at kites and email on computers? :eureka:
Lol, absolutely! If that's all I did, I would have tried to go professional with the kiting thing. Although I am on the forum most of the day
because work allows internet access, and as long as I get my stuff done, no one says otherwise.
As for all the comments about the curves in the frame... I realize now that having so many is not really feasible, I was just trying to make it
streamline without so many angled bends and aesthetically pleasing. Good thing it's just a model and the first one for this project. I also realized
(thanks to rckmac123) that the swan neck needs an angle on the pivot point of the forks to allow for some camber to make steering much better.
I am going to take a lot of your suggestions and mock up another one when I get the time. Thanks again for all the compliments and suggestions. You
guys are great!Jovver - 4-2-2010 at 08:17 AM
Also, if anyone could give me some good dimensions of different sized hubs and tires, that would be greatly appreciated. (I can't seem to find any
more dimensions other than bearing diameters and total diameter) The ones in the model I made up completely on educated guesses with the dimensions.acampbell - 4-2-2010 at 08:37 AM
A common size for hubs are 8" dia x 4" wide. They will frequently take the following size tires...
16 x 4.5 x 8
16 x 6.5 x 8
21 x 12 x 8Jovver - 4-2-2010 at 08:41 AM
Perfect Angus, that helps a ton! Are the 21" ones the Bigfoots?acampbell - 4-2-2010 at 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jovver
Are the 21" ones the Bigfoots?
yepJovver - 4-2-2010 at 11:26 AM
Alright guys take a look at Buggy Rev1. Longer, straight frame, angled fork pivot point, improved back rest, wider axle, and new rims with accurately
sized Big Foot tires! Surprisingly, the adjustments didn't take too long to do, the tires and rims took the majority of my time. All was done in
about 2 hrs because I am very picky about stuff.
Pics removed.flexiblade - 4-2-2010 at 05:04 PM
Looking good - here's something to think about - for the points where certain parts come together (frame to axle, down tube to frame) you could add
little dialogue boxes that could have blow ups of these joiners/clamps. It's good to be prepared to add these things in your design layout to begin
with or otherwise they can be a bear to work around later on.WELDNGOD - 4-2-2010 at 05:24 PM
Yeah, I was wondering is this gonna be one piece ? Or bolt together parts?Jovver - 5-2-2010 at 06:29 AM
I do not really know at this point whether or not it is going to be one piece. Obviously for portability, bolt together pieces would be ideal. My
thoughts are some sort of clamp for the rear axle, then some sort of bolt together system for the swan neck. Or I could leave the swan neck attached,
and just take the fork off when transporting it. There are several different options I could go with. I do like the idea of the dialogue boxes
though, but I may just end up mocking the clamps up and adding them to the assembly. I'll definitely keep you guys updated.popeyethewelder - 5-2-2010 at 07:29 AM
My advice would be carry your rails higher at the front sides to brace your thighs against, at the moment, there is nothing there and its surprising
how much you use your thighskteguru - 5-2-2010 at 07:48 AM
All that 3-d cad stuff is definately impressive:wow:. I have trouble working my cell phone. I hope no one does away with the old pencil and paper
technology cause I'd be screwed. Nice work thoughflexiblade - 5-2-2010 at 06:23 PM
Here are some rough drawings of an axle clamp that I have used - very easy to change the axle pitch. You could also remove your axle by making it
split with an inner sleeve and locking bolt.
This is the clamp I use for the down tube, one problem that I have been having is that the 2 bolts inside the frame towards the seat are a little
tricky to tighten - but the unit works well overall.
Here is an idea I had to replace the above clamp with 2 clamps similar to those found on tool boxes, would need an extra pin or something to keep the
main tab from getting accidentally "popped". Jovver - 6-2-2010 at 08:56 AM
Nice sketches flexiblade! It all makes perfect sense now! I will try to mock some clamps up in CAD next week. That tool box buckle idea is genious.
What if you simply welded some plates on the C clamp like on your rear axle, and had the two bolts on the underside. Basically rotate your downtube
pic with the latch on top 180 degrees, and replace the latch with welded plates and 2 bolts. Another question. Is there any disadvantage to
extending the clamps mounted to the frame and drilling holes through the clamps and downtube, then simply placing a bolt through the whole assembly?
That's how its done on the standard Flexi buggy...Jovver - 6-2-2010 at 10:56 AM
Second page glitch woo!flexiblade - 6-2-2010 at 11:05 AM
Yeah, you could do a C clamp on the down tube connector with 2 bolts instead of the 4 bolt setup - I went with the 4 bolt setup because that was
pretty common for some bugs I had seen at the time. I just want to make something that comes apart easily (when I want it to) to cut down on the
setup time.
The strait through bolts on the down tube (that go through the down tube) that you mentioned about the Flexi buggies I have only really seen on the
Flexi's.
I'm going to try and make a prototype of the tool box clamp at the shop today - I'll see if I can get the picks up later today.
My motto when building a bug is - there's always a better way.flexiblade - 6-2-2010 at 08:25 PM
I made it into the shop today but was just feeling terrible - I was on the verge of tearing apart the covers and seat on my buggy frame to redo them
but I just had a horrible headache, so I just went home. Lucky for that because it looks like the winds will be holding out for Ocean Beach tomorrow
- I figure everybody will be watching the Super Bowl so I will bring the buggy and give it a shot. Good thing I didn't tear it apart - the last time
I was able to get a good beach run in was back at the beginning of October. I did end up doing a little more detailed layout of the "Flip Latch"
today.
I think it has potential.popeyethewelder - 9-2-2010 at 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jovver
What if you simply welded some plates on the C clamp like on your rear axle, and had the two bolts on the underside.
Thats what I do on the Dominators and more recently on the Maloo
popeyethewelder - 9-2-2010 at 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by popeyethewelder
Quote:
Originally posted by Jovver
What if you simply welded some plates on the C clamp like on your rear axle, and had the two bolts on the underside.
Thats what I do on the Dominators and more recently on the Maloo
Jovver - 9-2-2010 at 01:09 PM
Popeye, is that red seat bug the Maloo? That's pretty much what I had in mind when I started designing mine!popeyethewelder - 10-2-2010 at 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jovver
Popeye, is that red seat bug the Maloo? That's pretty much what I had in mind when I started designing mine!
Yes Jovver see it in more detail Hererocfighter - 10-2-2010 at 06:47 AM
I used the two bolt through method I used. It is simple and easy. Just like me Jovver - 11-2-2010 at 09:31 AM
Ok guys, I've taken some things into consideration and came up with revision 2 of my kite buggy. Updates on rev 2 include clamps for the rear axle
and swan neck, holes in the swan neck downtube for more adjustment options, grips on the foot pegs, and extended plates on the forks for extra tire
clearance. I would really like to see what a seat would look like on this thing, but mocking one of those up in SolidWorks is actually an extremely
daunting task. I have considered angling the rear axle again because number 1, it looks awesome and unique, and 2, it will give me height adjustment
on the rear. I may play around with that sometime in the future. As always, if you have some constructive criticism, I am anxious to hear it!
Pics removed.BeamerBob - 11-2-2010 at 11:04 AM
2 things. I always liked Popeye's statement that "if it looks right, it probably is right." On his site, he talks about the importance of "rake" on
the front forks. You don't seem to have any. Won't this make it unstable as you attain speed? Also, having done some tubing bending to make
backrests, your radii might be a little tight on your side rails. It might be difficult to achieve those radii and it might also be stressful on the
tubing. Just my thoughts for discussion.Jovver - 11-2-2010 at 11:15 AM
BB, I tried to take rake into consideration, the fork pivot point is 20 degrees from the horizontal. Should I go more or less on that angle? When I
play around with the angle, the only thing that seems to happen is the seat aims more towards the ground. Please clarify and elaborate on the rake
concept. As for the tube bending, if it becomes too much of a hassle, I will change it.BeamerBob - 11-2-2010 at 12:17 PM
Gosh, by looking at the model, at first glance it looks like there isn't any rake at all. A few degrees at most. Seems like Popeye settled on about
25-26 degrees as optimal. Look at your model and visualize what your front tire does when you turn. If it just spins on the same contact patch of
the tire, you will have poor handling. Too much and it won't effectively turn so well. With the large amount of trail you have and seemingly little
(to the eye) rake, the wheel would get sucked into the turn and you wouldn't be able to get it to go straight again easily.
EDIT: To clarify, rake is the angle of the axis that the front fork turns on, measured from vertical. This axis can be represented by the bolt
holding the fork onto your swan neck.Jovver - 11-2-2010 at 01:03 PM
Alright Bob, makes perfect sense. Here is a side view of the bug as it is now. As you can see, perspective makes all the difference. I may increase
the rake to 25 degrees on the next revision.
Pic removed.popeyethewelder - 11-2-2010 at 01:43 PM
Not just the rake, but trail is also very important for a stable buggy, both in turns and at speed, and you have a shed load of negative trail
there...well spotted Bob
where the side rails meet the swan, I would lower that another 50mm too
I would still bring the side rails slope much less to support the thighs, you will notice a big change on my next buggy, especially around this area.flexiblade - 11-2-2010 at 08:03 PM
Here's a quick way to think about it - popeye's numbers will do the rest.
flexiblade - 11-2-2010 at 08:16 PM
I don't even recall what the actual angle was - I just kind of felt it out the hard way.
If the angle of the axis is straight up and down the buggy will turn wicked fast - going over 10mph with this kind of buggy is scary. If the angle is
too low the tire will "flop" over when turning and be difficult to straighten out, can also cause the tire to dig into sand or a soft surface.
flexiblade - 11-2-2010 at 08:33 PM
Quick correction to the first drawings design
popeyethewelder - 12-2-2010 at 01:21 AM
Nice one Flexi...in other words Jovver your buggy will be like running a shopping trolley in reverse, the front wheel will want to keep turning 180
degrees
You should be able to lift your feet from the pegs and the buggy will keep going in a straight line with no input from you....just thik what will
happen if you lifted your feet on your buggy.....ouchjellyfish - 20-3-2012 at 04:01 PM
So I'm curious as to a good rule of thumb for an acceptable rake and trail for a 16" barrow and a 21" BF it seems to me there must be some relation to
the tires width.
I'm slowly getting my head around this just need another bump in the right direction
Thanks
Jimbrad72 - 25-4-2012 at 10:18 PM
Don't know whether I have it right or not but I have been playing around with a buggy in Inventor that I plan to knock up and have settled on a 65º
head angle. This will be a longer cruising type buggy using wide barrow wheels at present. Realised that I hate doing pipe bends in cad.
But since I started the buggy plans I bought a land board and depower kite so the buggy might take a back seat for a while
Little pic of what I have come up with so far. I am going to change to the forks a little to make things easier to fabricate and I still can't decide
on foot pegs yet.
mdpminc - 26-4-2012 at 05:05 AM
Alu Buggy in the box (24x27x8.25 x 25lbs ) concept
