Power Kite Forum

would it work

yorkieflyer - 12-8-2010 at 03:52 PM

Bare with me on this one, I was born with rigid knees meaning they are permanently fixed in a straight position and I wondered whether it would be essential for me that I am able to steer a buggy via the foot pegs should I start looking into kite buggying.

Maven454 - 12-8-2010 at 03:57 PM

The only way to steer a kite buggy is with foot pegs, but it should be possible for you to do so. You might lose part of the turn radius though.

BeamerBob - 12-8-2010 at 03:59 PM

You could have some level of turning by pivoting at your hips but it would be much diminished from what a bending knee could create. Some ingenuity could find a workaround for you.

Maven454 - 12-8-2010 at 04:01 PM

I was thinking straightening the ankles (pointing the toes).

Maven454 - 12-8-2010 at 04:01 PM

Though I suppose there's always the crab buggy design, might be able to make that where the knees don't have to bend?

yorkieflyer - 12-8-2010 at 04:20 PM

This may not be so much of a dead end as I originally thought after I noticed the steerable front wheel.

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
Some ingenuity could find a workaround for you.


The more I think about, the more I'm kinda hooked on the idea that somehow with help from an experienced buggy kiter I may be able to come up with an idea that would make it work.

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
You could have some level of turning by pivoting at your hips


Quote:
Originally posted by Maven454
I was thinking straightening the ankles (pointing the toes).


I was wondering... If straightening the toes, or a combination of movement of the ankle back and forth together with pivoting of the hips would provide enough steerability, that could be mission accomplished


Quote:
Originally posted by Maven454
Though I suppose there's always the crab buggy design, might be able to make that where the knees don't have to bend?


Never seen one of those till you mentioned it, that could provide a different and interesting work around too.

indigo_wolf - 12-8-2010 at 04:39 PM

Pics here:
http://sites.google.com/site/crabbuggy/home

Pretty good video of how the Crab Buggy works.



ATB,
Sam

yorkieflyer - 12-8-2010 at 04:56 PM

Sam.. I reckon that would definitely work!!

it has also given me another idea, - - - LOL I said bare with me on this one...!

What would happen if you to modify the conventional buggy and reverse it so the front and steerable wheel becomes a back wheel similar to that of a tail-dragging aircraft? (it would be free to turn depending on which way force of the kite is pulling

additionally it might be possible to devise some pedals operated by the back and forth movement of the ankle attached to push-rods that steer the (now converted back wheel?

Bladerunner - 12-8-2010 at 07:56 PM

The Crab buggy is a Rockin' idea but the designer is in Mexico.
I think that with the Hip toe combo you will get an amazing amount of travel on your typical front fork.
There isn't too much else holding you back? Is there anyplace you can go to meet up and see how a typical buggy would fit ?

Dirtslide has added sort of a hammock to support his legs as he rests on the pegs. He is working back from a back injury and has been buggying with much less that locked knees. You should try and get ahold of him.

yorkieflyer - 13-8-2010 at 09:16 AM

Bladerunner, BeamerBob, Maven454.

The hip toe combo is beginning to sound really encouraging! I will definitely try and get a hold of Dirtslide too.

I wonder if any kitestores in UK (yorkshire) have buggys in stock that I'd be able to get to look at up close.

Or as you suggested, somewhere where I could go to meet up and see how a typical buggy would fit.

bigkid - 13-8-2010 at 09:31 AM

yorkie, I have a friend with the same thing as you. We have been trying out the buggy thing also. Tandem rides work well.
The turning with the toes is the problem, to hard to keep the toes on the bar, not enough movement(turns are way to wide to be safe, the statement-give me 40 acres to turn this thing around, has been said a number of times)
I don't want to hinder your desire, but William is now enjoying blokarts.
Hand steering and no need for the feet.
If you work something out with a buggy, Please let me know how it works, I would love to pass on the info.
Jeff

ripsessionkites - 13-8-2010 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bigkid
yorkie, I have a friend with the same thing as you. We have been trying out the buggy thing also. Tandem rides work well.
The turning with the toes is the problem, to hard to keep the toes on


heel straps

http://xxtreme.nl/footbrace.html

yorkieflyer - 13-8-2010 at 09:47 AM

The first thing that came to my mind when BigKid mentioned the problem keeping the toes on the pegs was perhaps an extension to footwear or pedal of some sort, heel straps may be the answer to the problem of keeping toes on the pegs.

bigkid
Thanks very much for the info, I'm still eager to at least have a look at a buggy and see if I can find a work around. My gut feeling is that there must be a away around the problem even if it takes modifying the buggy a little bit somehow and if I find a way around it I'll definitely let you know about it :)

bigkid - 13-8-2010 at 10:16 AM

Most buggys have some sort of bolt on peg for the feet. The trick would be to design a heal strap as the the rip stated above, but not to rest the foot but allow it to swing forward and backward.
To bad hand controls for the car can't be moved to the buggy.
You could also modify your shoes to incorporate a clip/catch on the toes to hang your feet on the peg, would help to keep them on the buggy. Just thinking out loud, might be fun to work out the problem and find a solution:bigok:

Krohn1999 - 13-8-2010 at 10:27 AM

Viper Parakart had a buggy design for people in wheelchairs. It had hand steering and braces to keep your feet/legs from falling off. In combination with modern depower kits(bar /not handle for one handed control) I see nothing standing in your way. I will try to find a link to the buggy and will post it here.
The only thing standing between you and bugging is you yourself.
I have ever seen videos of people buggying with a modified wheelchair.

Krohn1999 - 13-8-2010 at 10:30 AM

here is the link
http://www.viper-parakart.com/

look at the second picture

Krohn1999 - 13-8-2010 at 10:33 AM

If you look in the online shop you could even just buy one
1899€

acampbell - 13-8-2010 at 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yorkieflyer
Sam.. I reckon that would definitely work!!

it has also given me another idea, - - - LOL I said bare with me on this one...!

What would happen if you to modify the conventional buggy and reverse it so the front and steerable wheel becomes a back wheel similar to that of a tail-dragging aircraft? (it would be free to turn depending on which way force of the kite is pulling

additionally it might be possible to devise some pedals operated by the back and forth movement of the ankle attached to push-rods that steer the (now converted back wheel?


In order to sail across and upwind, you actually have to steer against the kite's pull. Being pulled in the direction of the kite will only chase the kite and slack the lines, and that never ends well.
But there are other good ideas here and it sounds like you will work it out. Good luck!

bigkid - 13-8-2010 at 10:47 AM

I like it when the wheels start turning, shows the world some of us has a brain that don't want to be front row at CNN;-)

yorkieflyer - 13-8-2010 at 11:10 AM

Wow folks, thanks for all the ideas!! Really appreciated as Its difficult at the moment for me to come up with any substantial ideas as I have yet to have a close look at a buggy.

Quote:
Originally posted by Krohn1999
Viper Parakart had a buggy design for people in wheelchairs. It had hand steering and braces to keep your feet/legs from falling off.

This looks like a fantastic system, I really need to check those out!

Quote:
Originally posted by Krohn1999
In combination with modern depower kits(bar /not handle for one handed control)


Oh cool , I didn't realise that one hand control would be possible to control the kite, in that case those three wheeled racing wheelchairs have a catch which after the operator has set the wheel for the turn, the wheel stays in place. There must be a way to incorporate that system to the buggy.

WIllardTheGrey - 13-8-2010 at 12:20 PM

Off road bike peddles? Shorten the foot peg and attach the peddle to the end then steer with you toes.


ripsessionkites - 13-8-2010 at 01:41 PM

im with willard on the sps pedal ... i was thinking of going this route for my freestyle buggy than straps for something a little different.

if you're up for the idea, i have sets of sps pedals kicking around, shoes not included.

bigkid - 13-8-2010 at 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WIllardTheGrey
Off road bike peddles? Shorten the foot peg and attach the peddle to the end then steer with you toes.

We tried these and not enough movement from the ball of your foot, got to get to the toe to get the most out of turning.
Yorkie will be better off with a depower on a bar. Handles will require 2 hands and nothing to steer with. Good find Krohn.

yorkieflyer - 13-8-2010 at 02:49 PM

Once again thankyou for all the feedback... soo much appreciated!!

Definitley worth persuing that Parakart I think, I agree A fantastic find!! and I think after all the positive feedback from here, it might now be worth finding a store with buggys in stock and sitting in it to asses my situation - that way I'll be able to see where I'm at

Bladerunner - 13-8-2010 at 06:30 PM

I wish I could find the pictures that I know are on here of Dirtslides sling things ? I can't even remember what he made them from ? He had them so his legs wouldn't drop out but I have a feeling that combined with the right strap these things may help.

Your right Big Kid. When Dirtslide and I rode it was on the dry lake but he had his turns down pretty tight ?

Somebody get D'sliddy to tell us what he thinks !

Chook - 13-8-2010 at 09:45 PM

Maybe rudder pedals like in an aircraft attached to the goose neck with heel straps and linkage to steer the fork off the top of the pedals. This could be at the top of the steering head. No pegs at all.
Shame I'm too far away with little time as it would be a great project.

arkay - 13-8-2010 at 10:55 PM

what about how k1 has his buggy setup... if you fly with a bar then you can even use your hands to stear a bit...

Bladerunner - 14-8-2010 at 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arkay
what about how k1 has his buggy setup... if you fly with a bar then you can even use your hands to stear a bit...


YUP, K1 is D'sliddy AKA Dirtslide.

I haven't seen or heard from him since he went in to have hardware removed a few months ago. Ken has put a lot of thought into this. His input would be good.

Scudley - 14-8-2010 at 11:40 AM

Dirtslide's leg baskets are basketball nets. He and I designed the system. We first thought heel straps but they require more strength to keep you feet in than Ken was confident of being able to provide. We considered butchering some clipless bike pedals, but worried that if they were tight enough to keep his feet on, would they release in an OBE. In the end we chose the net slings. The top of the net is zap strapped to the foot pegs, the bottom is held up by a rope that goes through two pulleys, attached to the rear axle, and on to the other net. The pulleys provide constant tension as you turn the wheels so the nets do not sag. Pulleys are fixed to the axle on either side of the seat to allow the rope clear passage under the buggy seat. In addition to the nets to prevent his legs from dropping there DS uses bungee toe straps to prevent his feet from flying up out of the nets.
DS's knees are not locked. He can steer using using his hip muscles. The system he uses also allows him to steer by pulling back with his better leg while pushing with his weak leg. I think ankle movement alone would not provide enough range to steer the buggy.
For hand steering you will need to be able drive with no hands for brief periods. This could be done by setting up the steering so the wheel is reasonably self centering. Even with a bar there are times when two free hands are useful.
An option for complete paras would be tandem buggies: one person steers the other flies.

Bladerunner - 14-8-2010 at 03:18 PM

Yes I never stressed that K1 doesn't have locked knees.
Interesting to think about how everything would work out with only the back person in the tandem pushing the rig? The closest I have seen is tanden flying in a tandem buggy. Turns could get entertaining ! :Ange09:

It is ever so slightly discouraging to hear you suggest the hammock set up would not be the best sollution. I had some doubts but no one has a better idea of how it work than you and of course D'sliddy !

My little Flexi hybrid sure doesn't require a TON of travel to set up a good tight turn ? :yes:

One thing scaring me ? G.B. is kite crazy. If you can't find local flyers and a local shop is it possible there isn't a decent spot anyplace close to you ? :shocked2: ?

yorkieflyer - 14-8-2010 at 07:05 PM

WOW I'm amazed at all the input this thread is getting helping me out in my situation!! Thanks to you all!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner

One thing scaring me ? G.B. is kite crazy. If you can't find local flyers and a local shop is it possible there isn't a decent spot anyplace close to you ? :shocked2: ?


I have found a local kite-store in York and its'about half an hours drive from me, during the week I'm going to have a nosey on down there ask questions and ask to be able to sit in one of their buggy's if they have them in stock. I would imagine that the kite shop will be some event lists where I may be able to find some local flyers that may be able able to help.

Having had search around google I have come across NKG. On the 10th October at Pontefract Racecourse NKG (northern kite group) is holding a kite festival, this is only 15 minutes away from my house, which is encouraging as NKG is a group for anyone in the Yorkshire area that is interested in building and flying kites, this can only suggest that there are plenty of kite flyers locally to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Scudley
DS's knees are not locked. He can steer using using his hip muscles. The system he uses also allows him to steer by pulling back with his better leg while pushing with his weak leg. I think ankle movement alone would not provide enough range to steer the buggy.


Because my legs do not bend, having walked that way for 27 years, has lead to natural movement of my walk to change adapting to the differences, this has resulted in extremely good hip movements, which gives me the confidence that DS's system may well still work for me, It would be very interesting if we can manage to get some photos of DS' system for ideas.

WIllardTheGrey - 14-8-2010 at 08:41 PM

Here's the beta versions.

yorkieflyer - 15-8-2010 at 04:37 AM

Cool, that helps to get a better idea, DS, definitley has much much more movement from both knees and hips than I have, and it does make me wonder how much modifying I'd need to make to the buggy to make this work , although only 5ft ish, I fear my legs would maybe go straight passed the pegs.

bigkid - 15-8-2010 at 05:16 AM

yorkie, after you check out some of the store buggies, ask the shops to let you sit in them and see if they would adjust the down tube to fit you. If it won't work there are many buggy builders that make bigger bugs that might be a better fit.
You might contact some of the buggy company's and see if they would be willing to help you out with your situation and see if any of them steps up to be a ambassador of the sport and work with you, I can see it now, Peter Lynn designs custom kite buggy for customer.
If I was a dealer for a buggy company, I would be on the phone as we speak.
A custom buggy might be the answer, can you weld?

Bladerunner - 15-8-2010 at 09:53 AM

As you move forward you may want to contact Popeyethewelder . He has an amazing mind for buggies , is in G.B. and is the salt of the earth. He loves a challenge + growing the sport.

I take it you are not at home in a chair? This Guy has me wanting like crazy to teach kiting to the Para community since I 1st saw it.
http://en.radsails.com/kite-videos/events/Kitesports-Alex-Sa...

If you are at home in a chair this is a real option, even if it looks like a step backwards. D'sliddy needs a chair like this so he can teach others after he's walking!

I won't be surprised if the shop owner you meet has put some thought into this already if he is a land oriented rider. He will respect that you aren't coming in cold at least !

Scudley - 15-8-2010 at 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yorkieflyer
Cool, that helps to get a better idea, DS, definitley has much much more movement from both knees and hips than I have, and it does make me wonder how much modifying I'd need to make to the buggy to make this work , although only 5ft ish, I fear my legs would maybe go straight passed the pegs.


To use this system you definitely need free knees. In fact DS had his leg braces modified to be able to lock out the auto lock of the knee joint.

Blade runner suggested for tandem buggying that driving from the rear buggy would be a problem. My guess is he is thinking of two buggies linked by a hitch. I had thought a real three wheel tandem buggy. It would not be that hard to modify something like a Super Truck to take two butt buckets similar to those used in some sport chairs. Leg room is not a problem with the bucket type seat, you would only need about a foot between buckets.
S

Bladerunner - 15-8-2010 at 03:55 PM

I get it now. I think KiteGuru has his buggy set up like that or I thought I saw him piloting one in a video?

WIllardTheGrey - 16-8-2010 at 12:27 AM

Something like the Kindred?

PICS

Scudley - 16-8-2010 at 11:07 AM

That would work for people with a disability similar to Yorkie's only if he is in the back. In the front seat, locked knees would still limit the front wheel's motion. You would need to some means of holding his legs up but not requiring his knees to bend: perhaps a cross bar attached to the swan neckabout five inches back of the steering tube to rest his calves on and keeping his feet out of the front wheel. These might be work quite nicely after a little cutting


They could be padded with pipe insulation, or pool noodle for comfort.
S

sknnyftn - 16-8-2010 at 06:35 PM

Just a random thought, but how about an adaptation of a pantograph to amplify the ankle movement. I'm not positive it would work, but you should be able to get a 2 or 3x applification pretty easily. That would be enough movement to turn a buggy wheel, but would take 2-3x more pressure.

jimbocz - 17-8-2010 at 03:49 AM

If you just want to see a buggy to try it out, go to Pontefract Racecourse on any weekend. I don't live around there, but I'm a member of a UK forum (www.kitesbuggiesandboards.com) and guys who fly there post all the time. As far as I know, they fly there all the time. I'm sure if you showed up, approach all the buggiers standing around and explain what you are after you will get all the help in the world. I bet they'll talk your ears off!

Scudley - 17-8-2010 at 05:51 PM

I am over at dirtslide's looking at this problem. We think the answer to this is something the the Travel Agent, (A bike device for allowing cantilever brake levers with Vbrakes). You would use your feet steer using cables. The cable is attached to a shiv that attached to a large shiv. Cable attached to the large shiv pulls the fork. A 1" shiv with a 3" shiv should provide enough range if the cable is attached close to the steering axis. You will still need something to support your legs and keep them clear of the wheel.
Try yacht chandleries for the parts. Or look at motoX style throtle enhancers to get more of an idea.
This solution assumes you have enough strength in your ankles to handle the steering forces.

Scudley and Mr. Slide

ripsessionkites - 17-8-2010 at 09:41 PM

Peter Lynn NZ and/or XXtreme can design something for ya through us.

I was thinking more lean (similar to the buggy cycle) to turn with two wheels in the front and one in the back.