Power Kite Forum

BIG QUESTION!

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 11:14 AM

I am new to snowkiting, i love snowboarding and consider myself pretty good at it.
looking to be able to catch some air if i freestyle out on my lake.:singing: it is a personal lake and i can assure you there will not be another kiter within 100s of miles. this sport has not picked up in MN yet. i intend to change that! :thumbup: im looking at buying an hq apex II 5m with the depower bar for snowkiting. also post if you have one for sale! XD

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 11:21 AM

Forgot to mention i am looking to spend about 500. if i have to pop for a couple more hundred to get a solid kite i will.

furbowski - 18-8-2010 at 11:40 AM

I'm not a snowkiter, but if you give folks info about the wind speeds you'll be dealing with, the snowkiters here will be able to give you better advice.

You can go to your local climate records for windspeeds, or if you know local snowkiters, they could tell you. Otherwise, maybe try to recall what the winds were like and try to pin them to something on the beaufort scale, click da link:

http://www.howtoons.com/?page_id=150

fwiw, 5m fixed bridle (scout) are very diff animals to the 5m depowers. the snow guys will tell you to go for a min 6m depower, ozone access, moving at 15 mph, lit up from 25-35. Also winter inland winds tend to be gusty and depowers will be much better than fixed bridles. 5m fixed bridle will get you moving in 10, powered by 15, and nervous around 20.

for stoke and info, click below: (feyd's blog)

http://hardwaterkiter.blogspot.com/

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 11:56 AM

well as i said i live in Minnesota and the weather is quite unpredictable. the winds are generally light with low gusts, but on some days 15-20 with 30mph gusts. probably wont ride those days. im just looking for something to take out and jump around on my lake.

furbowski - 18-8-2010 at 12:00 PM

I can't help you further, mate, I mostly static jump on the beaches around Hong Kong, I reckon that's as fa away from snowkiting one can get and still be playing with traction.

There's a snowkite club at UND, redtailin on here is the president.

There's a couple snowkiters in your area, and plenty more around north america.

give it a day, you'll get lots of info!

all the best to ya.

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 12:16 PM

looking at an Ozone flow 5m atm. i see that it is not a depowerable kite, but you can tether yourself to it, would it be better to go with an ozone pure 4m with depower or should i definantly get a 5m or larger?

indigo_wolf - 18-8-2010 at 12:22 PM

WHOOOOOAAAAA..... REWIND

The Ozone Pure (despite the marketing idiocy) is a fixed bridle kite. It is NOT a depower kite. We did this dance last year when the kite came out.

The Pure is essentially a package deal that is marketed as a beginning snowkite package with all the "essentials" all under one SKU.

How effectively it delivers on that premise will vary greatly depending on the user and local wind conditions. In heavy gust conditions, chances are better than even that it will mainly improve your skills as a snow gopher.

The HQ Scout attaches to a harness using a control loop with a quick release. If you look at the product manual, there is a fairly good diagram of the kite, lines, bar and how everything is laid out.

"Slack the bar" ?!?!

ATB,
Sam

indigo_wolf - 18-8-2010 at 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mwc_xb-crewx
looking at an Ozone flow 5m atm. just wondering if that is a good kite and if it is geared for snowkiting?


What are you flying now?

ATB,
Sam

Maven454 - 18-8-2010 at 12:26 PM

Ozone makes great kites. I've got to second indigo_wolf's question though, what are you currently flying?

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 12:38 PM

yea i just noticed that bout the ozone pure..
and when i say "slack the bar" i mean working the depower. when i say im new to kiting i mean reallly new as in i have not purchased a kite yet, and just want to make sure i get the exact kite before i drop hundreds. slack the bar i mean, when they are catching air they can allow the bar to slide up the lines towards the kite, and pull it back towards them, so working the bar while in mid flight. you can do that with crossbars, but i beleive that if you "slack the bar" all the way towards the kite it will fold the kite and make it fall from the sky am i right?

so after all my shopping i still have no idea what kite to buy, but i have learned a lot. i think i now have my head wrapped around the bars. and also the styles of kites.

furbowski - 18-8-2010 at 12:42 PM

If you don't have any prior kite experience you could put yourself at severe risk....

Shortcuts taken on the learning curve tend to end in A&E, there are photos of X-rays on the forum caused by the first 15 mintues of flight time.

These guys will lay it out for you, let them start you at the beginning.

:thumbup:

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 12:44 PM

so i have settled on wanting a kite with a depower bar for sure for doing arials on my snowboard. and i think i will need a 5m or possibly more. in all the videos of people doing arials with 4m kites the wind is realllly blowing. any ideas on a kite? like i said id like to spend about 5-700

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 12:47 PM

OH trust me i will be taking it easy, low smooth wind conditions on a nice open lake with more than enough powder. i am not new to snowboarding by any means, and im not new to breaking bones XD i want a kite that i can catch 5-10ft of air on a 140lb frame. im no dummy and dont intend on kiting in 30mph winds my first day.

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 12:53 PM

found an Ram-air Apex2 5m quad line with depower for 600. correct me if i am wrong but this looks like a good kite, in my price range, and can handle what i will be puting it thru

furbowski - 18-8-2010 at 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Maven454
I've got to second indigo_wolf's question though, what are you currently flying?


yo, sorry to be an a$$hat, but you need to 'fess up. newbie or not?

Maven454 - 18-8-2010 at 12:55 PM

My recommendation would be to start with something like the 7m Ozone Frenzy. You'll likely end up wanting an 11m as well for the lighter wind days, but the 7m should be a reasonable kite to start learning with. Another possibility would be a 6m Ozone Access. That of course is simply my opinion, prepare to be buried in other people's preferences :D. Ozone created the first open-cell depower kite and even allowing for differing opinions is at or near the top on almost anyone's list. They aren't cheap, but they perform well and are very high quality. I believe that Kent at A Wind of Change (awindofchange.com) still has an '07 7m Frenzy for sale. It was used very briefly as a demo kite and is in perfect shape. That'd be a good starting point and should be approximately what you want to pay.

Maven454 - 18-8-2010 at 12:58 PM

That 5m Apex II will be awfully small for snowkiting. Though if you're going to be spending your time on a frozen lake... might be a decent size. The problem with the Apex (and the Access that I mentioned in my previous post) is that since they are lower aspect ratio, they'll result in more downwind pull, which is a pain on something like a frozen lake.

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 01:08 PM

well i only weigh 140. the frenzy is a bit spendy. and im not trying to turn myself into glider, i just want a few seconds of hangtime to do small arials. i understand that size of kites and hangtime depends on windspeed, so would the apex do me justice for some flight if i were to go out on a windy day? or are kites that size just not really capable?

and yes i am a nooby to kiting, but not a snowboard noob.

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 01:10 PM

i am a quick learner with every sport i try, i also wakeboard, and snowkiting looks like a pretty straight forward concept. my goal of this thread is to get some good advice on kites. and ill be asking lots of questions along the way! XD

BeamerBob - 18-8-2010 at 01:23 PM

A kite that is small enough for you to maybe not hurt yourself learning is going to be woefully underpowered for snowkiting unless the wind is really blowing. If you start jumping before you have DEEP knowledge of what the kite is about to do before it does it, you are asking for trouble and fast. Your snowboarding experience isn't going to help you when a gust yanks you 10-15 feet up and you don't instinctively know what to do. You need some kite experience with a 3m or so kite to understand how they fly and what can go wrong without it going so wrong you get hurt bad. You're trying to take some shortcuts that can get you hurt or killed. Without recognizing that, your advice here will get less and less friendly. The folks here will help you endlessly as long as you listen to the advice you are asking for even if it isn't what you want to hear. Otherwise, just ask someone on the street which color kite they like best.

Maven454 - 18-8-2010 at 01:28 PM

I'm only 155 lbs and I spend my time using either a 12m or an 8m for snow kiting (generally the 12m). Even then, sometimes I wish I had a larger kite. That used Frenzy that I mentioned should be in your price range and is a really excellent kite. Additionally, 5m is about the smallest kite that is capable of providing float (which is what keeps you from hitting the ground really hard when jumping), something in the 6-8m range would provide a better float.


The difference between power kiting and most other sports is that most sports depend on either power from your body or fairly steady power from some source like gravity or power boats. Since kiting depends on the wind (which is a more fickle and undependable source) it is far more dangerous and much more likely to take you by surprise if you haven't gone with a careful progression. Bob is correct that you should get some kind of trainer to start off with.

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 01:32 PM

I think ill just go with the apex 7.5m unless someone has a good kite that they wish to inform me about. plz leave the motherly insticts out of your posts, i understand these kites are monsters, and there is a chance you can get hurt very badly. plz keep leaving suggestions ill be back in an hour.

Maven454 - 18-8-2010 at 02:00 PM

Just a note that a 7.5m Apex will cost you about the same amount as the Frenzy that I mentioned. But obviously you know what's best. In the event that you get hurt, please try to keep it off the news, our sport doesn't need any more bad publicity from people who "know what they're doing". Best of luck.

dylanj423 - 18-8-2010 at 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mwc_xb-crewx
plz leave the motherly insticts out of your posts, i understand these kites are monsters, and there is a chance you can get hurt very badly


its more that we are worried about you hurting somebody else... break yourself all you want... we have said our piece there, but hurt somebody else, and lose a kite spot for the rest of us and you will make a lot of enemies quickly...

that said... i recommend you avoid hq kites... some people like them, but for the most part i have been upset by their flying characteristics and durability... for 5-700 you can get a good used flysurfer if you are patient, but there is a 15m synergy for sale on the forum right now in that price range, and it will be a FAR more useful kite to you than a 7m apex will ever be

you can either take our advice on it, or throw it to the wayside, but trust me when i tell you that it can be expensive if you start buying up kites just because you think they are a good deal (with very limited knowledge of kiting at all)

the peter lynn brand is easy to use, beginner friendly... versatile... relatively safe... and confidence inspiring...


.. just make sure that what you buy is ready to fly, or you will be looking at another $200 for the bar/ lines

do you have a harness? you will need one for depower, and for your goals/ conditions, depower is what you will want

furbowski - 18-8-2010 at 02:39 PM

You can pick up a 3m 4-line trainer for a hundred bucks off the forum. Once you get a few hours on that, you'll know what we're on about. Then sell it on or keep it to introduce others to the sport. There's a few months yet before the snow gets here. Plenty of time yet to spend the big bucks, why not take it slow?

I really can't recommend a 15m arc to somebody who hasn't flown a kite, but they (and flysurfer) are the best foils for the long term. PL has been designing kites for 20 years, which is like being from the stone age in power kite terms. iirc, dj423 dropped at least $2500 USD on HQ kites before going arc.

One of the keys to safety in this sport is progression: slow and careful equals safe. If you're planning to go the self-taught route, well many of us have done that, but for no lessons substitute slower and more careful progression.

Use the time before the snow gets here, so that when you finally see snow you 1) know the wind window inside out 2) can recover your kite and relaunch from anywhere in the window 3) can use a harness 4) fly your kite without looking at it. That's at least 20 hours of time, likely a lot more.

Also you're going to learn a lot about wind. I had 50K miles of offshore sailing experience, most of that in a teaching / watch officer role on tall ships, before I started kiting and my knowledge of the wind was improved 10x in the first year of flying.

Oh... nobody has mentioned safety gear yet, but as an experienced snowboarder you'll know what to be worried about, eh? :evil:

OK, time to go back to digging postholes. I'll check back in half an hour.

acampbell - 18-8-2010 at 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mwc_xb-crewx
plz leave the motherly insticts out of your posts, i understand these kites are monsters, and there is a chance you can get hurt very badly. plz keep leaving suggestions ill be back in an hour.


You are just burning up your good will here as you are ignoring and even scoffing at good advice. And now you give us timelines?

mdntdncr - 18-8-2010 at 02:42 PM

If I might interject something . . . .

Handling the board, whether on snow, ice, land, or water never really seems to be the
problem. It's handling the kite that's the issue. Just humor us and take a look at several 'kite-jumping' Youtube videos and watch people get 'snatched' like an alien invasion. Being proficient on a board ( or a quick learner) doesn't necessarily mean you can learn the kite just as quickly, especially while doing something else. It doesn't mean you can't either, but there's a reason people are advising caution.
I learned to snowboard in less that 45 minutes and was doing 360's down a mountain (no, not head over heels) directly after that. I did similar things with water stuff. But handling the board and handling the kite are two different skill sets.
I'm not lecturing, only explaining, so please don't be offended.

Secondly; If you'll read some of the other posts (reference CNN). If you, at your risk,
(granted, this is your right to do so) go out and have an accident or severely injure yourself, it looks bad on the sport. Many places have already started banning various aspects of the sport because of those few (either novices or idiots) who decided to try something dangerous without properly investing the time on a kite or on a mentor/trainer. You may be fine with the possibility of getting hurt. But you may hurt the rest of us as well.

search references: CNN, Kami's episodes (speak up, Kami)

No one on here wants to rain on your parade, but it's not just 'maternal instinct' that
sparks cautionary words. It's wisdom, experience, and believe it or not, a type of caring brotherhood on the part of these guys. Dismissing them is risky and foolhardy.

I'll shut up now.

macboy - 18-8-2010 at 04:58 PM

Word up on the brotherhood! We all care about each other and the sport. My only tidbit to throw in the mess is that my "little 3m TRAINER" launched me 20+ feet downwind at about 5 feet off the ground. Thankfully I was still moving forward when I came back down and was able to slide it off.

Have a look at peep's signatures and invest in the money and time on the "trainer". You can snowkite on a 3-5m fixed bridle no problem - that's what I started with. You'll have plenty of kites to choose from as time progresses. If it helps, call it a 3m fixed bridle. Your high wind machine. Afterall, isn't that what the buggy speed record was set using? Or was it smaller still?

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 05:24 PM

i dont mean to be snarky, i just am very excited to get started in this sport. im not here to kill myself and be put on the news to give snowkiting a bad name, i am here to learn and figure out what would be the best kite for me. i have flown many stunt kites but never a power kite. maybe i will just go with a 5m depowerable kite, i think that should be plenty of power and manouverability for me tbh. ive seen people get wicked air on a 5m but i also see alot of snowkiters using very large kites. and no, no timelines i just had to leave for a bit and was letting people know i was chatting with.

Bladerunner - 18-8-2010 at 05:34 PM

Funny , I snowkite a lot and I rarely see people even flying a 5m Depower ? I just bought my 1st depower under 10m and I have survival not jumping in mind with the wind I need for it ? A 5m is about the LAST kite I would want for jumping. But you know, you've seen them !

Do you understand what winds you need for a 5m? It IS a good intro size and I think if you are determined to go straight to depower it is a good size to start out as a trainer but it is actually meant as a high wind kite ?

Back to your original post. YES you can hook in and take up the power in to the harness with a * 3m * Scout on a crossover bar if you have a D loop. IT would be your best choice IMHO ! I got my 1st runs on a 3m JoJo and a bar. It became a GREAT high wind kite !

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 05:36 PM

i am getting 2 ends of the spectrum here, some are saying start with a trainer, and in my mind a 5m would be a trainer especially in low wind conditions.
some are saying to go with the 12m or around that size, arent i much more likely to hurt myself with a larger kite?
im not an idiot i intend to take this sport with baby steps, but i also dont intend to waste my money on a trainer that i cant do what i want with, and wish i didnt spend the hundreds and woulda just went for the bigger kite. just a thought. im enjoying the feedback keep it up! thanks

Bladerunner - 18-8-2010 at 05:55 PM

I think anybody suggesting you go straight to a 12m was assuming you have trainer kite experience. A 10 or 12m is usually a good , go to size once you know the ropes. You are right that a smaller depower will be safer to learn on. If you HAVE to go depower ?

The rub with going straight to the 5m Depower is it is DISIGNED to work in the upper wind range . Look at the chart for the kites you are talking about . This mean you will struggle to even fly it until it's windy enough . A 3m trainer is DESIGNED to FLY EARLY so you can learn in lower winds. Being fixed bridle it will have the power of a 5m Depower kite when the wind picks up and you are ready to go !

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 05:57 PM

with a 5m kite you will need fairly strong winds correct? but many snowkiters ARE using a depower bar?

Bladerunner - 18-8-2010 at 06:04 PM

Almost ALL snowkiters ride depower but almost ALL learn on a 3m fixed bridle trainer as well.

Most people who fly fixed bridle ( like me occasionally ) on snow use handles.

BeamerBob - 18-8-2010 at 06:04 PM

The 2 ends are to either tell you what you should really do, or what you should get if you choose to ignore the advice of experienced fliers. That gap is the big problem with the big question. 5m is too big for you to get kite experience with. Many a flier (me included) has been picked up and sent flying with a 3m kite. The difference between what that 3m and a 5m will do to you in that situation can be disastrous, but you shouldn't waste your money on a little 3m.

Just think if your goal was to become an F1 racer. You probably wouldn't go out and pick up a deal on a slightly used F1 car to go out on a track and learn with. Use planes as another example. You wouldn't go to take initial flying lessons in a high performance jet either.

Bladerunner - 18-8-2010 at 06:07 PM

:lol: Jet fighter BOB :lol:

A 5m fixed bridle and a 5m Depower are completely different animals. You do get that ?

A 5m is a mid sized fixed bridle kite and shuld be a step up .

A 3m kiteboard trainer is EXACTLY THAT ! Exactly what you need , if you can't beg borrow or steal one for 20 hours !

furbowski - 18-8-2010 at 06:13 PM

a fixed bridle foil is more powerful per sq. meter than a depower foil, and arcs have less power per sq meter than a depower foil.

small depower foils require lots of wind to perform well, they are next to useless in low winds. Some designs are better than others in low winds, but nothing beats fixed bridles in low winds.

gusty winds bring much additional risk, esp. at higher wind speeds. snow kiters nearly always deal with gusty winds. depower kites are best in gusty winds, big fixed bridles are the worst.

it's impossible to have one kite for all conditions, esp. at the beginning. With skill, it may be possible to only have two or three depowers to cover most situations, but very few people keep it to this.

small kites in medium winds are easy to fly, big kites in light winds are much harder to fly.

are you doing any research? Do you know anybody who can help teach you?

your stunt kite experience is a big plus... 2-liners or 4 liners? what kites? many of us got our start that way.

you don't need to spend hundreds to get a trainer kite, and getting started with some kind of trainer is how you take baby steps.

shaggs2riches - 18-8-2010 at 07:00 PM

The obvious starting point has already been hammered out so I will try to veer off of that SLIGHTLY. I live in the Canadian Prairies and I thought it was windy here till I got my first kite. Now I know that the winds in my area are predominately West or some variation of West (w,sw,nw) and it isn't too often above 20k/h where the winds aren't gusty (crap winds for kiting). The first kite I bought last year was a 6meter ozone access. Great kite for high winds handles gusts well. I watched hours of videos and read probably every thread on this site and thought that I knew all I needed. While waiting for my new kite to come I acquired a Ozone Imp 3.5m trainer. First time I tried it was in about 15-20km/h winds. Surprise!!!!!! What I thought I knew about kiting meant nothing. It took me a good hour to understand how to make finer turns into the wind so that it wouldn't unexpectedly yank me and I lose control throwing it into the powerzone to get yanked again. Before my 6m arrived I got about 20-25hours of flight time and I'm glad I did. If I would have used my 6meter there's a good chance that I would have been thrown around onto my face, hurt the family members that were watching me and not to mention damaged my new kite. One thing to look at with the trainer kite is that it is a learning tool that after your twenty hours of practice, can be sold for very close to what you paid for it. To get a decent snowkite session with a 5-6 meter depower, you are gonna need at least 20mph or better winds (hence why they are called a high winds kite) With my 6 meter access fully geared up I need at least 22-25 mph winds in any amount of powder too get a ride that I won't be working the kite non-stop. Granted I'm close to 200lbs fully geared up. What I'm trying to point out is that it would be a good idea to get a trainer now and learn what you can from it in its entire range, then you can sell it and make most of your money back and get your next kite, which could evidently be bigger that the depower that you are looking at now, bringing you to more of a go to kite instead of one that might be too small for you to get what you want out of it. Sorry I dragged it on but like everyone else here I'm just trying to help you make the best possible informed decision for your money. Good luck and stay safe!!

shaggs

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 07:04 PM

i am doing a ton of research and trying to take in as much as possible before purchasing a traction kite. i flew 2 line stunt kites. so would it be a better idea to get a fixed bridle witha crossbar that is attatchable to a harness? or are depower bars the best way to go if i wish to be tethered to the kite? for snowkiting

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 07:26 PM

so what i guess what i need to decide is Ozone pure 4m with a fake depower bar, but pretty close. or an hq apex2 5m with true depower. both i beleive will hook up to a harness so i dont have to hang on that bar all day, and use the bar for STEARING not a "tow rope"??? that is my main thing, i dont want to kill my hands holding onto that bar all day!

if i am hearing all of your input correctly, in semi low smooth wind a fixed bridle would be better, when i say better i mean good pull and speed for cruising on a lake with my board. and if im in gusty strong wind i would want a depowerable kite such as the apex2.

people are telling me to keep the kite semi small till i get comfortable with traction kites.

shaggs2riches - 18-8-2010 at 07:33 PM

The common use of a depower for board sports is due to the fact that while riding you have the added benefit of trimming the kite while riding. You can have the bar pulled in halfway for a nice cruise and then when a gust hits and you start to lose some control you can push the bar away to spill the wind a bit to stabilize. Other benefits are to power up more you pull the bar closer. In a basic terms you are either increasing or decreasing the angle of attack the kite is in the wind (making it more flat or less flat). This can also be achieved with a trim strap that most depowers have, its purpose is to lengthen or shorten the front flying lines on the kite. I've never done any boarding with a fixed bridle, but most who use one for anything, will say that any 4-line fixed bridle works best on handles as you have the most control that way. To be hooked in (tethered as you say) a depower has a nice chicken loop that should be fitted with a nice safety release, you want to practice using your safety till you can do it in your sleep, this will save your life if things go wrong. It all comes down to preference through experience, but there is definitely a reason why most use a depowerable kite for any board sport. If you have a chance try to find someone who flies that can help you learn the ropes. This could help you find what you want to buy. Another thing to consider here is that you will get hooked very quickly when you start flying, and most likely will want an option for the months that there is no snow. I thought that I'd just want to snowkite, but still just ending my first year have acquired tons of gear and still want lots more. Its a crazy addiction that just keeps calling.

furbowski - 18-8-2010 at 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mwc_xb-crewx


people are telling me to keep the kite semi small till i get comfortable with traction kites.


folks are also telling you to get a 3m fixed bridle first, this as a cheap and sensible first step, you'll want to do as much of your learning as you can while it's still warm, maybe?

you're missing the part about learning to fly a 4-line traction kite before getting on a board.

fwiw, fixed bridles are usually best on handles and depower kites MUST be flown on a bar.

pbc - 18-8-2010 at 08:01 PM

Yes, keep it small to learn with. Don't worry about buying a kite you'll only use for a few months as it will be money well spent. Read this forum much and you'll see a lot of used kites moving quickly. If you can buy used and then sell later you'll save a boat load of cash. If you have to buy new and then sell you'll take a hit in the wallet but it's better then a hit on the ice from 15 feet up.

As to depowers, they are awesome, but not for the inexperienced flier. It can be a challenge to just figure out where to set the depower range for the conditions you are in. Maybe the guy next to you is flying fine, but you could get lofted by the same kite if you set the depower wrong and don't realize the error you've made.

Also, the safety systems on the depowers are complex. You have to follow the instructions religiously until you learn what all the features are for. You'll see fittings and connectors that make no sense until you have some experience using the hardware.

You tell us no one near you flies and that can make it hard to learn. Some things are so much easier to learn if you see someone do it. I have two Scorpions that like--all the Scorpions--have issues inflating on launch. Over and over I read the advice to "tug hard on the top lines" to get it to fill, but I just couldn't make it work 'til I saw someone launch a Scorp right next to me. I thought the wind was too light to launch but up the kite went as the flier tugged the heck out of those lines walking back the whole time. After seeing that launching became easy.

So listen well and ask questions when things don't make sense. The fliers on this forum are a great bunch.

Philip

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 08:28 PM

well we wont get snow for a few months yet so i will get in plenty of fly time before i hop on a board. soi think i am going to go with a depowerable kite just for the simple fact of its versatility. i understand your reasoning for starting on a simple fixed bridle. i just dont have the money and i feel i will be able to learn fairly quickly weather i am using quad handles or a depower bar. and yes i dont know a single person that flies these, and am eager to change that.

anyone know of a depower kite for around 5-700? i was also looking at the ozone pure 4m which looks like a nice kite, i understand that it is not a true depower but i NEED something that i can hook up to, to save my hands from hanging onto that bar all day. so plz keep that in mind when giving kite ideas! thanks everyone!

mwc_xb-crewx - 18-8-2010 at 08:48 PM

so doing some searching i have found the hq apex 2 5m which is depower.

and i also found the ozone pure with the crossbar and tether.

im thinking of going for the apex because it is affordable and i like the idea of depower, with some practice i will hop on my board this winter.

macboy - 18-8-2010 at 10:38 PM

Shaggs makes a great point about the fact that most any kite can be resold for good value through forums - esp if you take care of it. Sounds like you'll be around for a while as you learn (happy to have you) so I'd bet by the time it came to sell so you could step up you'd be quite a respected member of this little family and should have no troubles selling the kite at a fair price for both you and the buyer. Some, like me, have a hard time letting go though and the quiver swells...... :lol:

No matter what you end up doing, do make a note to self to try flying a fixed bridle on handles. You'll be stunned at the control you have over it. I started out on fixed bridles (3m, 4.7m and 7.5m) and when I got my Access 10m depowerable I thought I was doing something wrong because it didn't turn very well. In fact it turned jut as it's supposed to - I was just used to flying the fixed bridles which you can literally spin round itself with all the control you have.

Oh yes....you'll have many, many kites my friend ; )

kteguru - 18-8-2010 at 11:27 PM

Welcome to the forum mwc_xb-crewx:thumbup:. Plenty of good advise here as always:thumbup:. If I can put in my 2 cents I would suggest you go for a trainer first before you buy any depower kite. The reason is two fold. First,,, they're less expensive and get you learning the basics to start off then as you progress you can buy a depower in a size that will work well in the majority of your local wind conditions. Secondly,,,,,, a 5 meter depower like the Apex will need 12-15mph winds just to fly and at least 20mph wind to move you whatsoever on a board. It's likely that your local wind averages in the 12-15 range like much of the rest of the country. So going the route with the Apex is (in my opinion) just shooting yourself in the foot. It costs more than a trainer and requires significantly more wind to use which means fewer days you can get out and fly.

This past winter a friend got a 4m depower (Ozone Access) which I tried for a short while and although I was underpowered it was a great session. What wind were we flying in? 40+mph and the Access had plenty of depower left. I'm sure the kite will rarely see the light of day but on those rare times when the winds are ridiculous he has the right tool for the job. Don't get me wrong,,,,the 5m apex may be a nice kite for those nuclear days but it simply won't see much use on the average winter day. As others have mentioned,,, their most used size for a depower kite may be around the 10-12m range. Of course you wouldn't want to learn on that, but after becoming comfortable with a trainer then a 7-9 meter depower would be a good next step and would be a useful size you can get some snowboarding time on. Good luck this winter and let us know how things turn out.:thumbup:

DAKITEZ - 19-8-2010 at 12:29 AM

I think others have leaded towards this but not sure if anyone flat out said it. A 5m depower will not have much more power than a 3m fixed bridle. The 5m de-power will need more wind to fly than the 3m. The 3m will be much, much less money. Basically what I am trying to say is if you buy a 5m de-power you are buying a expensive trainer. Not say a small de-power is not a good kite, but (as others have said) you will need alot more wind to get power out of it than your skill level will be for some time.
Also I think any respectable shop will not sell you anything larger than a 5m de-power as your first kite, unless you have had some sort of training. I know I wouldn't sell you one. This is not to be rude but like others have said I don't care about you killing yourself, I just don't want you to ruin it for the rest of us.
Get a good 3m fixed bridle and you will thank us for it. As for the harness you can hook any kite into a harness. If you use handles you use a strope. If you use a standard quad line bar or x-over bar you use a d-loop. If a de-power you use a chicken loop. So do not think you "need" a bar to hook in to a harness. There are plenty of options available to you.

acampbell - 19-8-2010 at 03:53 AM

I wake up and am astonished at the traffic on this thread. [edit]

lives2fly - 19-8-2010 at 08:10 AM

I agree with 2 things being said here.

1. A 5m depower is too small to snow kite with and definately too small to jump with.

2. Learn to fly a 4 line kite on a bar BEFORE you try kiting and boarding at the same time! - start with something around 3 - 3.5m

Normally folks are pretty friendly on here so i dont know what you did to get the health and safety lecture - as far as I can tell you are just stoked to get into it anf don't realise everything you dont know yet.

To answer your question I would recommend a 10m Apex 2 or Access as your 1st depower snow kite. If you get serious about jumping then you can upgrade to a manta or something.

I differ in opinion to a lot of people in that I fly fixed bridles with my snowboard & landboard as I think they are more responsive. A 5.6m PL Twister will give you LOTS of air in 15mph + but you need to get a decent long bar (flexi-foil traction extreme is what i use 70cm)

There are 2 questions here which is why you are getting lots of different opinions. I just suggested a few first snow kites but your first kite should be something like a 3m ozone flow, flexifoil rage or PL twister. spend the rest of the summer/fall learning to fly and by winter you will be ready to do some runs on the snowboard and upgrade your Kite.

Quick edit - That kite will not go to waste. the 3.5m bullet I started with is my most used kite and comes out every time the wind hits 30mph when I'm boarding. which is a lot of the time where I live!

sunset-Jim - 19-8-2010 at 08:47 AM

Another thing that a good trainer kite as suggested by others (3m fixed) will be good for other than just a good high wind kite, is that once the experienced flier (you) becomes the trainer, he will have something to train with. :thumbup:

It also sounded to me as though maybe you had the misunderstanding that you can't be hooked in with handles. But as Dakitz mentioned, that's not true at all. Whether fixed or depowerable, we all fly hooked in. BUT, not right away. Go slow with that step as well.

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 08:58 AM

so i have read every post a few times to make sure i take it all in.

my main goal is to get a kite that will pull me in 10-20mph winds, so from what you have all said a fix bridle will be the best choice, and a depower will be much to weak for these winds.

i still would like to get a kite with a bar, so when i do get comfortable with the kite i can hop on a board. saying that
"you can hook any kite into a harness." looking at the rush 300 or 350 if you gt the wrist strap so if you drop the bar it will collapse the kite. i DO NOT want something like that so i am allowed to do do some arials if i get a good gust. so i was looking at a scout, or a ozone pure. not depower but has a bar designed LIKE the depower in that i can hold most of the kite pull by my waiste instead of gripping that bar all day!

thanks everyone! i appreciate your posts. and yes i am just excited i dont mean to be a pain.

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 09:16 AM

the flexifoil rage looks like a really good kite and has great pull in low wind. the only problem with it is i would like something with a bar i can strap to my waist. any ideas with that info?

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 09:24 AM

so im looking into the ozone pure 4m with bar. its not a depower but looks like i can let up on the bar to give my arms a little break. correct me if im wrong, and if you own one im curious how it pulls in 10-15 mph wind.

acampbell - 19-8-2010 at 09:28 AM

Now at least you are talking sense. :lol: You can put a D-loop (to hook in to a harness) on a Rush 350 bar; both HQ and Peter Lynn sell D-loops. The 350 in the name refers to span, not area. area will be around 3.00 sq m
Might as well look at an HQ Scout II in 3-4 m (and that IS area) for better upwind performance. And it comes with a D-loop, Fwiw.

The Rage will fly on a bar, such as the Flexifoil Extreme Bar that also comes with chicken loop and safety release.

Just don't hook in until you understand the kite and know what it will do next at all times.

Maven454 - 19-8-2010 at 09:29 AM

I've seen a newbie using the Ozone Pure on skis in about 14mph. She appeared to be doing reasonably well.

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 09:32 AM

yea the pure is one of the only kites i can find that has the bar with the dloop to save my arms. anyone know of a good low wind kite with a dloop or chicken loop?

tbh that is the main beef with me is i need a kite with a bar that has a tether loop so i can release the bar and the kite doesnt come crashing down.

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 09:37 AM

This is just a thank you post. without you guys i would have surely baught the wrong kite, and without you i would have noone to ask these simple questions. THANKS ALL!;)

vwbrian - 19-8-2010 at 09:48 AM

Get a Prism Tensor it converts from handles to Bar and back. This would get you the skills to fly safely. Plus you can learn the basics on both handles and bar. Then get your depower once the snow starts falling. Try to fly the tensor with a skateboard or Mtn board it is not as easy as some people make it look. Also wear some kind of pads and helmet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniRFMdGHwE

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 09:53 AM

well a crossover bar is about 100 bucks, no offense but id rather get a kite with bar attached. know of any like that?

acampbell - 19-8-2010 at 09:57 AM

Scout II has a cross-over rig, but they moved it from the bar to the bridle - very clever - and leaves a clean and tidy bar (with optional d-loop included). The Scout II was demo-ed at JIBE this year and very well rec'd. Putting the cross-over rig in the bridle also means they only need 3 lines to the bar, even cleaner.

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 10:07 AM

hmm not letting me click on page 3 so ill bump it a few times to see if it will let me.

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 10:09 AM

but correct me if im wrong, the scout 2 has the wrist tether which i cannot connect to a harness, because if i drop the bar it will fold the kite making it fall from the sky? the ozone pure on the other hand i can drop the bar and the kite will continue to fly thanks to the dloop?

acampbell - 19-8-2010 at 10:29 AM

again, the scout II has a d-loop as well. The d-loop has safety cut-away release that can let you dump the kite to the wrist leash safety, but honestly when you need it is usually too late, which is why most will say wait until you know what you are doing before you hook in. It is pictured detached from the bar here...
.
http://www.coastalwindsports.com/servlet/the-654/HQ-Scout-II...

acampbell - 19-8-2010 at 10:33 AM

Close up of D-loop...
http://www.coastalwindsports.com/servlet/the-178/HQ-Harness-...

Other brands are pretty similar

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 11:01 AM

ok thank you for clearing that up! i didnt realize what that was. so i take it you are suggesting to get the scout over the ozone pure? and do you own a scout? well starting my trip back to minnesota from washington so ill be back on late tonight. feel free to leave more suggestions, thanks everyone!

also if you have a scout 2 4m or 5m for sale i would be very interested!

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 11:04 AM

so the scout 2 witht the dloop would be the same thing as the setup on the ozone pure bar? look a bit different, the bar can slide about another 10 inches forward with the scout bar it looks like. will that be a problem while snowkiting?

mwc_xb-crewx - 19-8-2010 at 11:12 AM

the ozone pure is a 4m and is 475$, and the scout 5m is 427$ pretty much same setup. so i guess for me it comes down to what i aksed above, and also how they fly. so if anyone has experience with either id love to hear your input.

awindofchange - 19-8-2010 at 11:20 AM

The Pure comes with a Kite, Control Bar, harness and training DVD. The Scout 5m is Kite and Bar only. If you want to hook in like you have been saying you would need to also purchase a harness for the Scout which will run you another $140(ish) for the harness and spreader bar.

The Pure is really a great kite to start out on and comes with everything you need minus the board. Another nice thing about the Pure is that the harness that comes with it can also be used for the large depower systems should you eventually decide to go that route.

For the price / Quality / Performance, the Pure is a very awesome package and seeing as you don't have any other gear right now - probably the best value for your situation.

Hope that helps.

acampbell - 19-8-2010 at 11:25 AM

Nothing wrong with the Pure- ozone makes a great product . The megatron chicken loop on the pure bar is arguably nicer than a d-loop but you pay a lot more. Some will fly only Ozone out of brand loyalty.
Scout is more affordable and still a fine kite with good great build quality. Fine for snow. I like the cross-over rig up in the bridle. Makes for a fine flying kite.

macboy - 19-8-2010 at 01:19 PM

Just wanna throw in the fact that you'll be amazed at the power these things have but equally surprised that once you start moving WITH it instead of pulling against it it's a lot easier to hold onto. That alone is enough reason to not hook in until you know what's going on but you'll have to feel it for yourself to truly understand. I didn't hook in (using handles) for the first few months of my flying once I got moving with the kite. It's good for the arms afterall ; )


g-force junkie - 19-8-2010 at 04:17 PM

Wow this thread has gotten long,the 7.5 Frenzy that Maven mentioned is the smallest possible kite that I would try to snowkite with and a lot of the time you'll be sitting out sessions due to not enough wind or too much wind, the Frenzy is quite lifty so it may meet your needs of getting good air if flown in its proper range. My recomendation would be get at least an 8 or 10 meter depower and only fly in lighter winds until you get the hang of it.

B-Roc - 19-8-2010 at 05:55 PM

Well, this thread has far too many responses for me to trouble myself to read through thoroughly, but I'm a snow kiter and I'd say start and go with a 5m Apex. I weigh 145# and have skied all my life and have been kite skiing since 2005. You need a harness to fly a depowerable. A 5m depowerable can be a powerful kite in the right conditions but in low winds, in my opinion, it would be acceptable to learn on and though its small, depending upon the ice / snow surface, if the winds are up, you could ride that all day long. However if the winds are light you will struggle if the snow is deept, sticky or slow.

That's just my $0.02. Trainer kites are great and that's a good place to start and that's a safe way to go about flying. I flew dual line kites for years before I started power kiting so I understood kites and the wind window. But I started power kiting on a 8.5 blade III on a bar (then moved to handles). I respected the kite, flew within my limits and did fine.

Trainer kites are great but without common sense even a trainer is dangerous. Depowers rule and are great on snow or when riding on varied surfaces in variable wind. I'd consider the 5m apex but that's just me. Others will obviously disagree and for good reasons. I'm not saying I'm right or they're wrong. I'm just saying you could learn on a 5m Apex if you respect the kite, take is slow and start in low wind conditions.

Welcome to the sport and forum. Once you've felt the pull of the wind and heard the lines sing as you move across a frozen wonderland, there will be no going back :thumbup: :smug:

chudalicious - 19-8-2010 at 10:53 PM

Woah, lots of info here.

Just some words from one newb to another if I may indulge myself as I had many of the same questions as you but am beginning to put it together more day by day.

I snowboard too, LOVE IT and adding a kite into the fun just seemed like it would make those snow days even more kick-arse. So I called many a shop, and talked to as many folks as possible (thanks for all your continued patience with my questions guys!) and after careful deliberation, I got a 3m Scout II with the bar and harness line to give the old arms a rest and it has taught me the basics as well as the all-important wind window. In fact, a friend of mine (about 320lbs) wanted to try it in winds gusting up to about 12-14mph so i let him have at it. He had one hell of a grin on his face and later admitted it almost threw him around a bit when static flying it about the power zone at a good clip. Got some power alright.

So now I am hooked and bought a few depowerables and a few Ozone Flows to add to the quickly expanding quiver as i am not about to get overpowered by a kite not suited to the wind and i'll don't want to have to sit out because i don't have a good size for the day as i learn and progress more. To pay for all that, I am selling my 3m Scout II which is listed on the forum here - $300 shipped UPS via PayPal if interested. Perfect condition.

Another thing? Pick up the "How to Snowkite DVD".. a little pricy ($35ish) but worth it if you aren't going to get any professional instruction.

furbowski - 19-8-2010 at 11:19 PM

:thumbup: above.

i reckon you know by now that the first kite you get won't end being your goto kite once you get going on your skills and start putting them together.

that future kite is the one you really want to spend your money on.

go used for the first one, it will teach you what you really want to get.

don't be tempted to spend lots because you think you'll get the perfect one the first time....

longest first kite thread ever!

:lol:

mwc_xb-crewx - 20-8-2010 at 12:44 AM

haha well im happy you guys have been patient with all my silly questions! i think im going to go with the ozone pure, and yes i would like to get it used to save some green. if anyone knows of one ill take it! for the right price that is. :tumble:

Maven454 - 20-8-2010 at 03:58 AM

I honestly doubt that you'll find one used, they've been out less than a year.

lives2fly - 20-8-2010 at 04:16 AM

I think you would be better off with a Peter Lynn Twister II anyway. Its more of a Boarders Kite.

Its also more of a handfull but you will be fine if you start with a small one! you can get them with a bar in your price range but I would really recommend getting a separate bar with a chicken loop and a decent quick release - Flexifoil traction extreme for example.

Maven454 - 20-8-2010 at 04:41 AM

Then he'd still have to buy a harness separately.

lives2fly - 20-8-2010 at 06:06 AM

Ozone XC or whatever they call it would be the way to go there then. the version with the spreader bar... and yeah fly unhooked for your first couple of sessions.

I would also get some knee pads and maybe armour shorts. I am assuming you have a helmet you wear snowboarding which will do fine if you take the winter liner out. otherwise buy a helmet too.

Maven454 - 20-8-2010 at 06:07 AM

My point, lives2fly is that the Pure comes with a harness and a bar that has a chicken loop/quick release. Versus the Twister II that you're telling him he should buy.

lives2fly - 20-8-2010 at 06:26 AM

ah ok sorry,

He should still buy what i said though ;)

No seriously though if you buy a decent harness and bar right off then they will last you through a good few kite upgrades.

I havn't seen the ozone pure package to be honest let alone flown it. It might be great...

Another thought would be to get an Arc. Used ones can be pretty cheap and they are good for land snow and water. + your first kite just becomes part of your quiver.

krumly - 20-8-2010 at 07:49 AM

mwc_xb-crw

if you're new to snowkiting and think the sport hasn't picked up in Minnesota yet, I don't know where you're hanging out. MN has one of the most developed kiting communities in the US - snow and water. Aaron, aka rudeboysaude, will back me on this.

You ever hear of the winter Crossing on Mille Lacs? Literally 100 - 150 kites in the air at once. Any day with some wind you'll find 10-15 kiters on decent sized lakes around the Twin Cities (White Bear, Waconia, Minnetonka, etc.). Their are lots of kiters in Duluth and around Mille Lacs, too.


Check out http://www.lakawa.com/ for the local news. The site has been the hub for the kiting community for at least 10 years. Look at their Snowkiting 101 course. They start with fixed bridle foils on a bar (3-5 m, depending on conditions, size, and skill) and usually end with an intro to depower LEI's in one day. Not so many foil kiters around here. Steve Blaine at http://www.mwsk2.com/ does lessons, and he's into Ozone foils for winter. He boards and skis. The money you spend on a full day may equal the cost of a used fixed bridle foil on bar, but may give you the skills to progress to a larger depower kite without purchasing the trainer.


Might also check out Aaron's website at http://www.mnadventure.com - he's got a cool site on northern MN kiting and other winter sports. And he's a great guy.

krumly

PS - don't know what you weigh, but doubt you'll use a 5m depower foil or LEI bow or SLE very often around here. Only on a couple days/season when it's howling. My guess is if you take a lesson, you'd jump into an 8 - 10 m depower and then add a 13-15 for lighter conditions. Most folks around here looking for a 2 kite quiver end up with something like that.

Bladerunner - 20-8-2010 at 08:48 AM

I see you creeping up to 4 and 5m as your choice ? I see you desire to get more out of your 1st kite by getting bigger. The way I see it you are limiting that kite to simply a trainer you will grow out of, just like you want to avoid. A quality smaller kite like the 3m Scout will live forever in your bag . You will want to fly it in high winds and to use it to teach others.

That Ozone package isn't likely to come up second hand too soon.

Just to be sure you are clear about the depower dilemma. The larger the kite the lower the wind it will perform in. Typically depower kites need at least 8mph for lager foils to even fly without a struggle. A small foil like a 5m won't even fly on it's own until almost 12mph doesn't start pulling until about 15. The BEST winds to learn in are UNDER 15mph.

A 3m trainer will fly in 4 or 5mph winds it will start to pull you around a bit at about 10 and get you going on hardpacked snow around the same 15mph that the 5m depower is just entering the picture!

It is the tried and true way of going about things. Like Fub's says. the 3m should be a no brainer. The kite you want to research is your SECOND kite ! It will be the one you TRULY will meet your goals with. The trainer bit unfortunately is the ONLY CORRECT way to go if you are working it out on your own.

mwc_xb-crewx - 20-8-2010 at 10:05 AM

well i have swayed away from the depower becuase it takes more wind to fly it. am i right? and the ozone pure or scout 2 5m is what im looking into now. any experience with either?

Bladerunner - 20-8-2010 at 10:27 AM

I Have had a fellow come up to me in the park who was amazed to see me jumping on off road rollerblades. He was very interested in how I got to that level. I told him what we have been TRYING TO TELL you about starting with a 3m trainer. He then told me all about how he started with a 5m Scout ( or previous gen ) and was just getting beat up by it because it's got too much power.
That's the only experience I can pass on with that kite !

bobalooie57 - 20-8-2010 at 10:28 AM

I haven't flown the Pure, but have seen it flown by an experienced skiier, new to snowkiting. He was flying the 4M, and did quite well for a newbie, IMHO. The harness is a basic padded waist belt with a D ring to attach the chicken loop to. This is something you can probably use right out of the box, but you will be wanting more, all of us do eventually!:roll:

bobalooie57 - 20-8-2010 at 10:33 AM

I should add, this was after an hour or so flying a 2M Ozone Imp trainer (3-line), to get used to the wind window etc.

wind-dave - 20-8-2010 at 10:41 AM

I started out 4 years ago with a 2m Slingshot B2 trainer kite. I still fly that today with my skateboards in 20-30mph winds. Being a snowboarder maybe you skateboard also in the off season so you would always have a chance to keep sharp on all your skills.

I'd say spend $75 on a small trainer complete with bar and lines. You'll always have use for it like I said.

Welcome to the great sport!

krumly - 20-8-2010 at 02:03 PM

crewx -

Dude, how close to the Twin Cities are you? Go to the classified section at www.lakawa.com. There is 3.5 m HQ Beamer with bar, safety leash and harness loop for $180.00. Claim is in mint shape. Looks like a Minneapolis area code.

krumly

mwc_xb-crewx - 20-8-2010 at 06:37 PM

im fairly close. i live in st. cloud. i looked on the website and was unable to find what you were talking about but that would be a great kite for me! plz post another link if you can find it!

indigo_wolf - 20-8-2010 at 08:06 PM

The website prefers the word "community" over "forum", but it is in the classifieds section of the forum.

Link: 3.5m HQ Beamer - $180.00

ATB,
Sam

krumly - 21-8-2010 at 08:03 AM

Angus - I looked at the manual for the HQ Scout. That crossover set-up up at the kite is pretty slick. Would be easy to make up a 'plug and play' rigging mod that you could move to any 4-line fixed bridle kite with a simple bar and then remove to fly with handles. I like that. Gonna have to try it on my PKD Brooza quiver, just for fun.
But if it comes with a D-loop with safety for the bar, they need to lose the wrist cuff and swap it for a safety that clips to your spreader bar. The Slingshot B-series are set up that way (although the kites fly like crap, IMHO)

Not too offf topic for crewx, 'cuz if you end up with an older beamer you could retro it really easy. Here's a link to the manual as a PDF file:

http://www.powerkites.de/index.php?option=com_content&vi...

krumly

indigo_wolf - 21-8-2010 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by krumly
But if it comes with a D-loop with safety for the bar, they need to lose the wrist cuff and swap it for a safety that clips to your spreader bar. The Slingshot B-series are set up that way (although the kites fly like crap, IMHO)


Will take the thread veer just a bit further West... any further trip down this road should probably be in a new thread, though.

The only reason I don't see HQ doing that is purely down to cost. It is cheaper for them to provide the wrist strap and D-Loop than something more elaborate.

Not sure how the Scout does on sales, but I get the feeling it's on the fringes of HQ's product line in some respects and they are particularly sensitive to pricing themselves out of the market.

Now, if you were to win the PKF raffle (the one where you get a shopping cart and 15 minutes to load it up with the stock from a PKF retailer's store
..... yes, tickets to the raffle would be very expensive), it would be fairly easy to do what you are talking about.

The Ozone Megatron chicken loop would probably be an easy retro-fit


Just not particulary cheap.

FWIW: I realize you could use another manufacturer's chicken loop, but the truth is the Ozone is neither at the top or bottom of the price tier and you might as well use something you like and with the beal line already attached.

Bonus points would be awarded for including a centerline trim-strap ;)

ATB,
Sam