Any suggestions? A guy on an Ozzie kite site ...flyjump - 9-2-2011 at 06:06 PM
tell him to loosen the straps. when i first got my charger and i was still tuning it up, it happend to me a few times. I had mine pulled in all
tight. as soon as I tuned it up and loosend all of the straps the tips didn't collapse and stick together anymore. you can see when he started to
turn the kite once it spun then collapsed.PHREERIDER - 9-2-2011 at 06:11 PM
been there done that. Mine did same after about 200 hrs or so... as on the daily grind. if you recallflyjump - 9-2-2011 at 06:14 PM
dang dude, that is exactly what happend to me the first day I had my charger. I remember being really frustrated with it because I flew my scorpions
with the straps all tight and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. you can see in the video that the kite is really responsive to turning,
but with all that power it loops and then folds in half. I think since the internal strap is close to the vents, they get pushed into a weird spot
when the strap is all tight. I think it doesn't get optimum air pressure and then folds..... I dunno thats what I think I guessBladerunner - 9-2-2011 at 06:22 PM
I think my Synergy never did that but I have seen it on my chargers ( and Tarc ) The 15 when not properly filled and the 10 in bad wind.
Go ahead and sell those Synergys before trying Charger Kami' :dunno: IMHO ! PHREERIDER - 9-2-2011 at 06:24 PM
i ran loose straps most of the time rarely touched the straps. after a few 30+ session it started. being a mile or so offshore in 30+ conditions,
6-8ft swell, man what fight. i keep riding despite repeats but after couple hours my nerves were blown out.Kamikuza - 9-2-2011 at 06:27 PM
So what was your solution, Phree?
... what's the point of straps if you can't tighten them without stalling ... design flaw or what?
Yeah Blade but all the other happy users are erm ... happy I can't notice a
difference in the tip straps anyway, but can with the center strap!flyjump - 9-2-2011 at 06:37 PM
hey phree, was that happening on your 15? Also, does it still happen to you? and did you find anything to sort it out?Bladerunner - 9-2-2011 at 06:38 PM
Too right about my wanting something different out of a kite . Still the 2 are different enough you may want to try one before flipping completely ?
It's all good! PHREERIDER - 9-2-2011 at 06:42 PM
ah lets see,
VENOM
EXA
lads SYN
PHANTOM
thats where i'm atmarkite - 9-2-2011 at 07:39 PM
okay I think It's a combination of things - straps tight but then the setting on the line attachment to the kite is over sheeting when the bar is
pulled in. You can see he has the bar in when this happens - yes I think straps tight creates a problem - (more stally in my opinion but haven't had
such bad tip collapse) maybe it needs a compensation on the rear line tension - use a knot closer to the kite on the front lines? He says it happens
more in lighter winds - higher winds would hold the tips back more, light wind it oversheeting and pulling the tips too far forward and they pass the
neutral position and get back winded and tip collapse.ripsessionkites - 9-2-2011 at 08:09 PM
i wouldnt mess with the internal straps too much, factory setting is best, IMO.
this is news to me why this is happening and I've forward the information to head office. wait for my reply.flyjump - 9-2-2011 at 08:15 PM
I talked to chris krug tonight and he said he thinks the straps are too tightmarkite - 9-2-2011 at 08:22 PM
Just had another look at the video and I'll have to think about it a bit more - he has the kite depowered a lot - there is a huge loop hanging from
the de-power but the back lines are already tight with the bar out - it shouldn't be that tight unless it's very windy and then i still don't think
they would be that straight with that amount of de-power. So any pulling in on the bar is oversheeting - but why do the rear lines look so tight when
de-powered that amount?flyjump - 9-2-2011 at 08:28 PM
I definatly think it is pilot error when he set up his kite for those winds. He was crankin when he was riding on the water. He was lit. You are right
when noticing how much his clam cleat was depoweres yet his back lines were still tight. Good call markitecarltb - 9-2-2011 at 10:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fff6FxgvoY4
its happened to me before (1 min10 on the vid) i put it down to a wet kite full of sand on the top skin.Kamikuza - 9-2-2011 at 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by flyjump
I definatly think it is pilot error when he set up his kite for those winds. He was crankin when he was riding on the water. He was lit. You are right
when noticing how much his clam cleat was depoweres yet his back lines were still tight. Good call markite
Dunno if "pilot error" is the right term ... I've had the 19 Syn out and played with straps at all extremes of straps and combinations thereof but
never experienced that - could it be that the Chargers are more highly tweaked already, in their "default" configuration?
It's almost as if it's getting hit at 90 degrees by a gust ... or that the Nav Y-split is pulling the front tips too close together.
I've had the tips clap together on launching but I assumed it was because I had it trimmed in too much on the trimmer ... like he has it.Feyd - 10-2-2011 at 06:08 AM
look at how tight the back lines are. When he sheets in the front lines look to be going a little slack. Enough for the tip that is most in the wind
to collapse on itself. On the beach (check his hair for wind direction) it folds that tip first. In motion the tip thats most in the wind. DOes
that make sense?
When he sheets out it resolves itself. I think as Carl pointed out it's worse with the wet and the sand. But his rear lines look tight as a tiger.
I'm with Rip, I like my kites set at factory.PHREERIDER - 10-2-2011 at 07:06 AM
pilot error ...if thats the case the unit is too sensitive for use then
original nav.set up= same problem
other bar line set up= same problem
tight/ loose straps, depower trim, full power trim, all of it= same problem.
my very first impression was out of range, ultra gusty winds and too much depower so the balance center falls to TE and collapse occurs, never could
reproduce it. used only on land for while and eventually the collapse thing just came to a no fun at all even on land.
i don't know, but i have tried to patiently to find a solution. late window edge hard redirect would make it occur (like a heli loop behind you at
the window edge) but not the same as cruising along and it just clams.
the last session i had with i couldnt keep it open for a full minute. so i sent it back(thank you angus) for a designer look.
i will say a rash of collapses would happen then 2 weeks of everything seemed fine no matter what bar i used or conditions. quite frustrating
no crashes, not one, no bow ties, none. spars are true, no seam rupture or pulls
that was end of the summer/fall i think. i think it started in late spring , during one of first spring time beach front rides.
strangest thing the first 200 hours were flawless use
Originally posted by Feyd
Enough for the tip that is most in the wind to collapse on itself. On the beach (check his hair for wind direction) it folds that tip first. In
motion the tip thats most in the wind. DOes that make sense?
On the beach the wind looks to be coming from the right (hair bent to left) but you would have to believe it's really at his back when the kite
collapses it drifts to the centre of the wind window. All collapses appear to initiate with the left wing tip every time.
EDIT: the hair is blowing forward and wind swirling around the camera mount and the perspective it just looks like it's going left.
That's also what the hi-6 would do if we could ever get it to inflate and fly - We need a twinskin lab to look at some of these hinky kites -PHREERIDER - 10-2-2011 at 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by markite
Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
Enough for the tip that is most in the wind to collapse on itself. On the beach (check his hair for wind direction) it folds that tip first. In
motion the tip thats most in the wind. DOes that make sense?
On the beach the wind looks to be coming from the right (hair bent to left) but you would have to believe it's really at his back when the kite
collapses it drifts to the centre of the wind window. All collapses appear to initiate with the left wing tip every time.
That's also what the hi-6 would do if we could ever get it to inflate and fly - We need a twinskin lab to look at some of these hinky kites -
yes i would agree ,i experienced the left wingtip everytime. that really was the only consistent findings esp. seeing this video.
and this i think may contribute to the real problem,
the profile shape(top skin) near the tip seems flatter , older units have a greater degree of profile shape near the wing tip. so the tip has it
"own lift" , if it gets flat the apparent wind just pushes it close..how about that for a solution. i noticed this during a wave session where the
air bags in the top of the kite and the tips go flat and snaps close, after a deep window loop. tip distortion under load losses lift?
my thoughts on it .flyjump - 10-2-2011 at 09:04 AM
Dang I hope this is a rare occurance, I would hate to be 12 feet in the air and then have tip collapse on my redirect. I don't want to end up with
two broken legsmarkite - 10-2-2011 at 09:08 AM
another small point - it always follows a very slight start to a right turn. At the beginning the kite is at the zenith, goes the the left and just as
it starts to turn right the left tip collapses. On the water he is doing a gentle sine and as he comes to the bottom and a slight upward (right turn)
the left tip folds in.Feyd - 10-2-2011 at 04:55 PM
But is that occuring because of input from the rider or enviroment?
I didn't get a chance to test it today. Maybe tomorrow.action jackson - 10-2-2011 at 05:18 PM
I have had the same thing happen thru the yrs! The brake lines need more pigtail! ....................ajKamikuza - 10-2-2011 at 07:08 PM
There's a question - Feyd, you ever experience this? How many hours your reckon you got on your Charger?shaggs2riches - 10-2-2011 at 08:07 PM
by far not as experienced as you guys, but it almost looks like there needs to do a line length check. (too short in the back, kinda like how AJ
suggested pigtails) Otherwise I'd just suggest a defect in the kite.ripsessionkites - 10-2-2011 at 10:33 PM
i hear the OZ distributor is handling with the owner
talking with the designer notes:
The Charger will perform optimal with none of the straps pulled in. There will alway's be riders who claim otherwise but everybody has his or her own
likings.
the fix is to loosen the straps fully and if the problem concists to contact the dealer or distributor for further details on the problem. (it's hard
to see what happens exactly on only a small vid)Feyd - 11-2-2011 at 05:16 AM
@Kami. I flew the 15m Charger almost every day I was out last season. Our Season went from November to May and I put in almost almost 3000 miles
that season.
I don't know how many sessions but a lot of hours mostly in punchy inland winds.
I've had sudden wind shifts that look like what this kite is doing but they were clearly wind shifts. Nothing I did on the kite ever caused that sort
of result.
the closest thing I've expirienced to that sort of kite behavior was on a 19m V2 that I had to limp back on a broken spar. It would fly like
everything was fine but too much bar input and it would go nuts like that 12m Charger.
I looked at the footage again. Markite is right about the left tip collapsing first. However as you watch it frame by frame the rider is also
yarding in the left bar end as well. When he sheets in it looks like it could go either way but goes to the side with the bar pulled more.
If the bar was level and rear line pressure equal I would be lean toward a possible issue wit the wing. But between the super tight rear lines and
the rider's actions and visable results at the wing I'm still thinking its a set up issue.
I guess We need to know if it's always from the left or just what we see.PHREERIDER - 11-2-2011 at 07:24 AM
a little depower on the main trim compensates for rear pigtail length being too short.
with tight back lines kite is really sluggish very slow to turn and extreme bar pressure.
there just isn't enough effect with setting parameters to cause it to clam. changing it just makes the kite stall prone
with line length issue you know it immediately, its not something that just pops up.
i think the( top)skin at the tips are pulled flat and as wind builds with load and angle it just pushes it close. internally shortening (maybe
20-30mm)#1 and #2 webbing at the tips maybe 3 cells in each side is gonna help keep profile shape on top skin from flattening out. it would be an
easy reversible mod to test .
i have a slo motion video of tip fade, its why i made the video back in summer. it didnt really catch much attention.carltb - 11-2-2011 at 07:37 AM
another thought on this is the tips collapse because of a sudden loss of interia pressure. one answer to this could be he left the deflate zip open.BeamerBob - 11-2-2011 at 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by carltb
another thought on this is the tips collapse because of a sudden loss of interia pressure. one answer to this could be he left the deflate zip open.
Surely no one has ever done that!
Carl you might be onto something with that.PHREERIDER - 11-2-2011 at 07:54 AM
what does a launch look like with open zip on a charger ? you don't get that far, you know immediately when it goes up , if it goes up and with it
clamming instantly.carltb - 11-2-2011 at 08:16 AM
it doesnt show how much time there is between collapses, but the beginning of the vid looks like it was just after launch, and the end ov the vid
shows it clam, regain pressure, then clam againFeyd - 11-2-2011 at 01:13 PM
I can see what you mean Carl. But the rider stated that he has the rear lines super tight to offset the collapse likelyhood.
So it had to start, be landed, tinkered with, and launched again. If a Zip were open I would think it would go flat in the meantime.
I wish I could get my hands on it a and fly it. I'd like to see it in person.flyjump - 11-2-2011 at 01:19 PM
I wonder what vpc settings he has lines connected tooKamikuza - 11-2-2011 at 05:15 PM
Zip open - yeah I've done that ... the Insta-Clam is how I notice it too :embarrased:Feyd - 13-2-2011 at 04:46 AM
I launched my 15m Charger yesterday with internal pressure too low. As soon as I initiated a turn is did exactly the same thing as in the video.
EVEN THE SAME COLOR!
Maybe its the color.
I'm not saying I think it's low pressure, but it sure looks a lot like it.Kamikuza - 13-2-2011 at 06:38 AM
Looked like his had construction issues - the leading edge seemed to be pinching under the strap. So I won't be buying blue then
Yikes if it's inflation issues!Bladerunner - 13-2-2011 at 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
I launched my 15m Charger yesterday with internal pressure too low. As soon as I initiated a turn is did exactly the same thing as in the video.
EVEN THE SAME COLOR!
Maybe its the color.
I'm not saying I think it's low pressure, but it sure looks a lot like it.
Agreed. Every time it has happened to me it seemed like internal pressure wasn't up there yet ? My sticky valves play into that one ? I wonder how
long he had been flying on water when it happened?flyjump - 13-2-2011 at 09:47 AM
The same thing happend to my 15 when I first got it and pulled all of the straps tight. It bows into an arc too much not allowing the vents to inflate
all of the way I think. I think that top strap is too close to the vents which can cause that issuePHREERIDER - 13-2-2011 at 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
I launched my 15m Charger yesterday with internal pressure too low. As soon as I initiated a turn is did exactly the same thing as in the video.
EVEN THE SAME COLOR!
Maybe its the color.
I'm not saying I think it's low pressure, but it sure looks a lot like it.
my initial thoughts as well , it just lost pressure. a valve or zip popped. but after all checks out on my ch15. it continued and at the oddest
times and once it started the recovery was slow which would look just a weak low pressure launch.
i have had a range of 2hour sessions with 5-6 non launch clamming events to a 20 min back breaker session with a 10 non launch clamming events.
LE profile deformation (at the tips) causing it to clam in flight is my last guess. i have about 100 hours working with this issue.
i am anxious to get its replacement . the loop speed really has me spoiled.Kamikuza - 13-2-2011 at 06:34 PM
Sounds like a mistake in manufacturing ... HERE are some shots of the troubled kite in the vid.PHREERIDER - 13-2-2011 at 07:17 PM
no wonder! def problem there. would really affect profile!
i'll look for twist/pucker in some videos of my ch15,
thanks KKflyjump - 13-2-2011 at 07:36 PM
wow those pics are intense.....problem solved?ripsessionkites - 13-2-2011 at 08:06 PM
looks like one of my cousins screwed that up well.
good thing is that at PLP we aim to please so the customer will be happy in the end.Kamikuza - 13-2-2011 at 08:27 PM
Yeah looks like PL Oz is on the ball the guy posted on arcusers.net
that he was being sorted out
IMHO ! 
I can't notice a
difference in the tip straps anyway, but can with the center strap!
the guy posted on arcusers.net
that he was being sorted out 