So after blowing out my knee...again, and being told by my doctor to not step within 500 yards of a kite, this is the compromise I came up with. Of
course with snow coming, I'll be back on skis as soon as the swelling subsides. The buggy seems to work very well, although it could use some fine
sharpening on the runners. It made pretty good headway today in light wind even with the rough sharpening job on the runners.
dman - 12-2-2006 at 06:29 PM
Man that thing looks like alot of fun! Can you send me the same parts to bolt up to my flexi, I would love to run that on the lakes up in the the
mountains by me. What would the cost be ?rrc62 - 13-2-2006 at 06:07 PM
Well, that's the problem. The 440 Stainless for the runners was $120 alone, then the skis another $110 for two pair...They come in pairs. The other
stainless, 4130 tube and spherical rod ends I had kicking around the shop, but I'd estimate all of that at another $200 or so.
The best I can do is take some detailed photos for you so you can make a set. I couldn't make them for sale. They would cost too much and liability
would be a killer. You could make them cheaper by using 1018 CR steel for runners. They won't hold an edge as well as 440 stainless, but would be a
fraction the cost. Might also be able to find a cheaper ski alternative...or just don't use skis. The nice thing about the skis though is that they
ride up over the snow drifts and also make the buggy usable in snow, not just ice.
Today was the first real trial. Winds were 10-12MPH with an 8.5 Blade. I brought the kite up too fast for a jibe and it lifted me right out of the
buggy. It's getting a seat belt tomorrow.dman - 14-2-2006 at 12:35 PM
Boy that sound alot more involved than I thought. Thanks for the info though, I just don't have enough areas to use that would justify the cost.rrc62 - 14-2-2006 at 04:49 PM
If not for the fact that we've had just about no snow this year, I wouldn't have bothered either. Well, that and my bad knee, but the knee doesn't
slow me down much. Had a good four hour session on skis today. Not enough wind
for the buggy on snow. Rain is coming on Friday followed by a freeze. Should zamboni the lake nicely.Chip - 14-2-2006 at 06:35 PM
So, you used plastic skis and cut through them to pop-rivet on scratch build runners, yes?
What are the runners originally used on? (Any link to sources?)
Looks like a lot of fun!
-Chiprrc62 - 15-2-2006 at 12:27 AM
The skis are snowmobile ski skins. They are attached to the runner boxes using 8-32 stainless machine screws. Pop rivets would loosen and break.
The runners themselves started out as three pieces of 3" X 1/4" 440 stainless. Same stuff knife blades and DN ice boat runners are made from. I made
a jig and roughed the 90 degree edge with the milling machine, then put a razor edge on them with a fine wet stone.
Occationally you can find used DN ice boat runners on eBay, but even there I've seen them go for over $400 a set. Much cheaper to scratch build them.
The runner box is the part you can see from the top of the ski. The runners fit inside the box. This allows you to remove the runners easily for
sharpening.
Other than the ski skins, everything is scratch built. You can get ski skins at any snowmobile/ATV shop. They run about $50 a pair.Scoopy - 15-2-2006 at 06:55 AM
Be careful with the seatbelt Ross, that 8.5 will not care if you have an extra 100lbs attached to your butt. The only thing worse than an OBE is to
have 100lbs of metal on top of you with 3 razors attached somewhere. I would think twice about the seatbelt.
Scooprrc62 - 15-2-2006 at 09:08 AM
I know...I've been lifted in a buggy before. Just have to make sure you're pointed in the right direction before you land. The problem with a buggy
on snow is that you have a lot more "rolling" resistance than on wheels. That means you need a big kite and/or lots of wind, and that means lots of
pull. Enough pull to yank you out of the buggy sideways. If it were just a matter of being lifted up, I wouldn't use a seat belt, but without the
seat belt, you have to fly with one hand and hold yourself into the buggy with the other. On ice it's not so bad...about like being on wheels. You
can get away with a smaller kite and less wind.sunset-Jim - 15-2-2006 at 06:37 PM
I'm with scoopy when it comes to caution in regards to seat belts. Another alternative would be to build up the side rails on your flexi. Higher
side rails (along with higher back support) won't only help you be able to handle more power by not being yanked out the side but also makes for a
much more comfy ride.
I've seen it done here locally and the difference is pretty amazing.Scoopy - 18-2-2006 at 07:08 AM
So Ross, you blew out your knee on the 11th of this month, doctors told you not to be 500 yards to a kite, then on the 14th your out for a 4 hour
session??? Had the swelling already subsided?? I just cant immagine being on a 4 hour snow ride with a blown knee?? What did you actually do to
your knee??
Scooprrc62 - 18-2-2006 at 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Scoopy
So Ross, you blew out your knee on the 11th of this month, doctors told you not to be 500 yards to a kite, then on the 14th your out for a 4 hour
session??? Had the swelling already subsided?? I just cant immagine being on a 4 hour snow ride with a blown knee?? What did you actually do to
your knee??
Scoop
I have no cartilage or ACL and a sub par MCL in my left knee due to a motorcycle accident, so it dislocates easily. What happens is it dislocates
then pops back in. After that happens it takes a few days for the swelling to go down. The first time it happened this season it took 2 weeks to go
down. Now it only seems to only take a few days. I ice it at night and pound down the ibuprofen. As soon as the swelling goes down, I go back on
skis. I also wear a custom made brace when I ski. That helps some.
I was on the buggy today. Winds were averaging 25MPH with a high measured on my wind meter of 47MPH. Winds in the pic were about 30MPH. I managed
just under 40MPH in the buggy. I could have done better but I kept the kite high in the window as not to get caught out by a gust.
Are you going to Kitestorm? I'll have the buggy up there. I'm planning on Sunday, but that could change. There is not much snow up there now and I
don't see anything significant in the long range forcast....So bring your ice gear.
Scoopy - 19-2-2006 at 03:57 PM
Heh, dont have any such ice gear. No, Im not going to be able to make it. My wife is going to have surgery on her foot, so I wont be able to be
there.
Im glad your knee is nothing serious (I think).
Good luck on the ice
Scooprrc62 - 19-2-2006 at 04:11 PM
The knee has it's moments. I've been dealing with it for a few years now so I'm used to it. Today wasn't bad after we got past this mornings
trajedy. The DN ice boats were running over 70MPH this morning and two collided. One guy was airlifted out and the other died on the scene.
Anyway, I figured out today that I can hold down a lot more kite on skis that on the buggy. I went 44MPH on skis and could only get 32MPH comfortably
on the buggy. I'm going to work on the runners a bit and see if a better edge will hold more power. I find that to get the speed, you have to keep
the kite right down near the ice, other wise the upward lift unloads the runners and makes them slide sideways. Of course, the problem with keeping
the kite on the ice is that the gusts get interesting. So I'm guessing high speed runs on the ice buggy should be left to days with steady wind.schneidp20 - 3-3-2006 at 09:04 PM
So how good is the snow performance? I wouldn't imagine power is very good, but I'm looking at old crusty snow right now. Ice boating has been
dismal in MN this year. I need some alternative when the ice is rotten. I have DN runners, but I like your blade setup better. It would be much
lighter.
Can you supply close up pics of the runners disassembled from the ski. I don't quite get it.
Thanks,
Davejonesing4wind - 5-3-2006 at 06:55 AM
I knew a guy who knew a guy who made a similar setup for sale. I got a chance to try it on snow, and there was A LOT of resistance. It made me think
it would be better do ditch the snomobile skins nad just use runners when on ice. And for snow, rig up some old snoskis, maybe cut some down or use
skiskates. The thing I found out was that snowmobile skis have a lot of resistance, much more than snowskis for people. Here is his product: http://members.cox.net/sean.jones/snobuggy1.JPG http://members.cox.net/sean.jones/snobuggy2.JPG http://members.cox.net/sean.jones/snobuggy3.JPG
If you are interested, I might be able to find his name for you. I wont say how much they are for sure, but I think they were around $400 for a set
of 3. Keep in mind this was 2-3 years ago.
Sean
Seanschneidp20 - 5-3-2006 at 04:42 PM
Thanks a lot for the pics. If I do anything I'll build rather buy. It's a little disappointing hearing about the resistence, but I guess that's
why I asked. Thanks again.jonesing4wind - 5-3-2006 at 07:22 PM
Well, to be fair, I only tried it once and it was on pretty warm wet snow. I think ice would be ideal. Maybe try waxing the snomobile skins like you
do with regular skis.
Seanschneidp20 - 7-3-2006 at 08:38 PM
How about mini skis with waxable base? You could still insert the blades in the center of the ski.Chip - 7-3-2006 at 10:54 PM
I've been thinking about this and I think schneidp20 is on the right track.
But I'm wondering if you couldn't get better results scratch building runners out of layers of fiberglass over wood and/or metal.
From what it looks like with the pictures, the snowmobile skis have a significant v shape in the center, this is probably one of the main causes of
extra drag.
Snow skis are dead flat and polished to glide over snow.
If you made the body out of strips of wood, you can steam and bend this layers of wood and glue them into a very strong shape, fiberglass to seal the
wood and you'd have one heck off a ski. (the wood work might sound intimidating, but you can build a very simple steam changer with a tee pot and a
plastic bag, look for wood working stores for more info.)
Remember that surface area is what counts, longer ski's are faster, wider snow shoes can handle more weight. I'd think you'd want 5" wide skis at
least, maybe wider, and about 36-40" long, curled up at the front. This is just a guess on sizes though.
To prevent side slip, set the blades maybe as much as an inch below the ski blade, then they should cut very cleanly in the forward direction, and
prevent side slip in all but the loosest powder. The only thing to watch out for is that you don't cut all the way through the snow and nick your
blades on rocks or pavement. The front ski may present a problem with turning if you have one long blade, two smaller blades on the front and back of
the ski might work better.
This is all theory, and totally untested. Just some ideas I'm thinking, thought I'd through them out there.
-Chipschneidp20 - 8-3-2006 at 06:46 AM
I think different snow conditions require different setups. The setup you describe is for deep snow. You probably could get by with just canting
regular skis to take advantage of the edge (straight, not the parabolic ones). I've seen a windsurfer setup that worked good like that.
The snowmobile skis are intreging because they are designed for lateral force in turning. That's what we need. However, it's not going to be for
powder that's for sure.
I think some experimenting is in order ... next winter.FMF - 4-4-2006 at 07:46 AM
Hi guys ! I'm in Icebuggying for almost 10 years now in Québec Canada. Here's my Icebuggy Number 7 made last year with carbide runners, aluminium
folding frame(aircraft quality). Very fast machine !
FMF - Webmaster - KiteZone.caBucky - 4-4-2006 at 10:43 AM
Love that design!!! Gives me great ideas for regular land buggies!! Most one-off buggies use the same basic geometry as Flexi's and Libres (maybe
its because its good - maybe because thats what there "supposed to look like":wink2
Anyhow, it looks very straight forward (minimal bending involved) I'm guessing it probably has less flex and better lateral stability than standard
buggy designs (given that it has the side bars running all the way to the steering tube, instead of converging into one at your crotch)
How does that affect your ability to steer sharply?? Questions question....
KudosFMF - 5-4-2006 at 06:49 PM
Steering is very shap and side slide for braking too.
I used aircraft aluminium and some fittings from an old hang glider leading edge to make the frame. Very comfortable for long distance too !
I love the look of your icebuggy Number 7.
As I don't speak French!
How about more on the specks on this buggy?
so I can buld my own. The lenght of all tubbing
. Would nice. thank you. Please!Bucky - 3-9-2006 at 12:31 PM
Hey! Have you guys checked out Peter Lynn's new concept in Ice buggying? Two laterally flexible rails that steer by deforming them into arcs!?!
(Think of an extreme version of the old "flexible flyer" sleds) Whether you use his stuff or not, you gotta admit that guy's brilliant.delite - 18-9-2008 at 05:43 AM
Hi there,
we made a trip to Poland/Border to Russia in February 2007 with our Icebuggys.
There we found only Blackice - great !
Had a good four hour session on skis today. Not enough wind
for the buggy on snow. Rain is coming on Friday followed by a freeze. Should zamboni the lake nicely.
