Power Kite Forum

first board?

Trbo323 - 30-9-2011 at 01:27 PM

well, i am going to have a apex 3 7.5m on the way shortly, and my school was kind enough to put a bunch of money into my account so im looking into ATBs

im a newbie to this so i really dont know what to look for in a board, some suggestions and help would be much appreciated

is buying used a good idea?

stetson05 - 30-9-2011 at 06:43 PM

Buying used isn't bad but I would be careful. Anyone on the good traders list shouldn't steer you wrong. I really like my Core 95 and my Core 90 is a pretty good board too. I would be pretty careful about boards on ebay. Most of the older ones are heavy but probably still ride good. Someone might show up with a good sale for you.

Trbo323 - 30-9-2011 at 10:09 PM

what about this one?

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=18491

price is a little high for me but if i had to i could swing it, depends on what i should or shouldnt be looking for

Trbo323 - 2-10-2011 at 11:31 PM

nobody has any advise?

stetson05 - 3-10-2011 at 05:11 AM

looks like a good board. I have no experience with them though. The trucks look better than the skate trucks on my Core 90. I wish I had riden one to tell for sure but if Phreerider has recommended it I would take that. Good Luck!

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 07:29 AM

actually im staying away from that one, i was told the company is nolonger in business so parts are hard to come by

so, im back at square 1

indigo_wolf - 3-10-2011 at 07:59 AM

The only parts that are hard to come by are the components for the trucks. And you will put in a lot of time on them before you have to worry about upgrading or replacing. Pretty much everything else is cross compatible with parts from other company.

Perfectly understandable if the concern still lingers and this is your first board.

There's another GI board up for grabs from Windzup if the budget is tight.

If neither of those suit, break out the local Craigslist listings and see if any MBS Comp or Pro models come up at a reasonable price.

ATB,
Sam

dylanj423 - 3-10-2011 at 08:05 AM

a word of advice... buy that conflict from windzup... do it quickly, and ride it hard... you wont find a better deal on a board. period.

i love my conflict, and iGI makes the best boards ive ridden... i havent ridden them all, but also dont feel i need to, gi has been great

even if its the older model, its still very solid

... enjoy :)

burritobandit - 3-10-2011 at 08:14 AM

This is the board I learned on:
http://tinyurl.com/4xgkugh
$175 is a bit much for that one, I'd offer lower and see what he says. I found mine on Craigslist for less than $100 ;)

Just pull the brakes and the leash off it, and you'll be fine. I pulled the bindings off it when I first started out, then as I got comfy riding around, I put them back on. I was able to boost on it and the trucks/deck held up fine. I rode this board for about 2 years and I upgraded later because I wanted something lighter. It's got skate trucks which use the standard bushings you can find at any skate shop. Rims/tires/bears are readily available so you can replace/upgrade as needed.

Or if you want a new/more recent version, I think this one is comparable:
http://www.dakitez.com/servlet/the-562/MBS-Atom-90/Detail
and I think this one is the same, it just has a brake on it: http://www.dakitez.com/servlet/the-511/MBS-Atom-95x/Detail


edit: Oh yeah, That conflict for $200 is a sick deal. That's used to be a $400-$500 board. Only prob will be getting torsion cubes if you need to stiffen/loosen the trucks.

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 10:32 AM

so lets say i pick up one of these GI boards, first of all which one would you go for and why? and secondly, if i get one and the trucks just fall apart on me, how much is it going to be to replace them?

im typically not a fan of buying things that i can not get parts for but if these are like a super fantastic deal im not going to just ignore them either

burritobandit - 3-10-2011 at 12:30 PM

It might depend on how much you weigh and or how carve-able you want your board to be. I like my boards to turn quick, and for that reason I had to sell my Conflict; even the softest torsion cubes were still too stiff for my liking. I prefer skate trucks because they're are easily adjustable (just crank down on the kingpin), and easily found if I want to change their stiffness or replace them.

Looks like that Patrol has the white torsion cubes which are the stiffest torsion cube available. If you want a less-stiff truck, you'll have to find the softer torsion cubes. You should ask to see what torsion cubes the Conflict has.

Easy answer: I'd go for the Conflict because it's $100 cheaper & the deck has gobs of pop and is bombproof.

As far as the trucks falling apart, I'd say that'd highly unlikely given how burly their construction is.

If you ever need torsion cubes/parts, you could post a thread asking. Only GI parts-related thread I've seen recently is this thread: http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=18494

dylanj423 - 3-10-2011 at 12:53 PM

regarding breaking the trucks... i really dont think that under normal wear and tear that would happen, esp not if its an old model,.... i tried to dissassemble some older trucks once, and it withstood hammers and tire irons for about an hour...

... i never did get that thing off :/ ... really thats why i bought my conflict (trying to upgrade to the bionics), and i dont regret it a second

... seriously, that conflict sold for more than twice the amount hes asking... as burrito mentioned, they are a bit stiff, but thats why you dont hit speed wobble until youre well over 30 mph

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 01:14 PM

what are anti-friction plates?

and idk, the more i read into these boards they sound good but i dont want to end up like that guy in the post begging for parts because they are nolonger produced

so who else produces boards that i should look into?

also, whats the difference between a stiff board and a loose board? like how do they effect the ride?

thanks for all the help guys

indigo_wolf - 3-10-2011 at 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by burritobandit
Looks like that Patrol has the white torsion cubes which are the stiffest torsion cube available. If you want a less-stiff truck, you'll have to find the softer torsion cubes. You should ask to see what torsion cubes the Conflict has.


I would confirm with Space Monkey. If you are using the the pics in the thread as a reference, I think what you are seeing is the resin cage for the cube. My understanding what that unless you opted for something different at the time of purchase Spring Bionics came with green eggs and Torsion Bionics came with HD3 or HD4 cubes (depending on year, they ranged from HD1 (Softest) to HD6/7 (Stiffest)).

With the Gen I cast Torsion Bionics, it was easier to see what the cube color was when it was installed.



With the Gen II resin hangers, the cube was more shrouded by the resin cage and you can't tell what color cube is installed unless you look at it from a 45° angle.



@Trbo323
It's close to impossible to describe how stout/over-engineered the Bionic Trucks are. The only way to truly appreciate it is to hold an unmounted one in your hand. There's definitely a "holy crap" moment involved. I am sure you could break them given the right circumstances/alignment of stars, but that would almost surely be accompanied by some really bad external mojo.

ATB,
Sam

burritobandit - 3-10-2011 at 01:35 PM

From SpaceMonkey's thread:

Quote:

Ground Industries Patrol Mountainboard
$300 Shipped anywhere in the continental US.

This board is in nearly new condition. My friend bought it and rode it maybe 4 times.

The trucks are GI Bionics with white torsion cubes.

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 01:37 PM

ok, im not worried about the trucks then but what about other parts? tortion cubes and anti-friction plates?

so im seeing the patrol and the conflict up for grabs on here, which is better? conflict is $100 cheaper

burritobandit - 3-10-2011 at 01:42 PM

I *think* the anti friction plates are that gold-colored component of the truck here: http://www.groundindustries.com/trucks (it's been a while since I've worked with one).

Servicing them: http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=11904


Other manufacturers: MBS, Scrub, Trampa

Stiff turning vs loose turning is your preference.
Loose turning = carve-y feeling + easier to turn, but susceptible to speed wobble at higher speeds
Stiff turning = can withstand higher speeds with no to minimal speed wobble, but is difficult to turn. You'd have to hop-turn to turn quicker.

Do you skateboard? If so, how do you like your trucks set?

indigo_wolf - 3-10-2011 at 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
what are anti-friction plates?

Anti-friction plates make them sound way more technical than they are. They are really thin adhesive (almost) stickers that are applied to two of the inner (front and back) surfaces of the resin cage that the torsion cube sits in. It's basically a consumable part that prevents wear to the resin cage. If push came to shove you could probably fabricate this part.... it's not rocket science.... the terminology just makes it seem that way.

The anti-friction plates are at 6:00 in the picture below:



They are about as thick as a sheet or two of paper.

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
and idk, the more i read into these boards they sound good but i dont want to end up like that guy in the post begging for parts because they are nolonger produced

B-Roc is the person looking for anti-friction plates. The lack of them doesn't make the board unrideable. Just some additional squeaking and (slow) wear on the cube cage. He has been riding his Flight board for a very, very long time.

Phree's take on it was:
"I HAVE RUN WITHOUT PLATES FOR some TIME NOW And really can't notice much. but i do run 6/7 cube # so its stiff with a little shake. king pins are still solid. i tried replacing once ...that was a zero.
just let em go. the cubes eventually tear and crumble inside roughly about 800-1000 hours. seemed tidy when they're good but no way could i keep up with the wear! "

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
so who else produces boards that i should look into?

MBS (Readily available from many sources), Trampa ($$$ for a first board), Scrub (better known in the UK, but still fairly available in the US). There are a handful of others.

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
also, whats the difference between a stiff board and a loose board? like how do they effect the ride?

I am assuming you mean stiff or loose trucks. Boards tends to be stiff or flexible. Stiff trucks mean less wobble at speed. Loose trucks mean a board that is easier to turn/"carve".

Hope that helps with the questions.

Do what you gotta do and spend your money how you see fit. Most of the demo gear from Windzup has thus far been in very good condition, so this could be a good deal for you. If the details/caveats exceeds your comfort zone, hold on to your money until you find something you are good with.

ATB,
Sam

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 02:22 PM

i was looking at the MBS stuff and they just seem a little pricey for what they are, the Trampa stuff seems really nice but also really expensive, nothing against scrub but id rather avoid buying from over seas

the more im thinking about it the more im leaning towards the conflict that is $200, any cons to that besides parts? how hard is it to find torsion blocks for these?

indigo_wolf - 3-10-2011 at 02:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by burritobandit
From SpaceMonkey's thread:

Quote:

Ground Industries Patrol Mountainboard
$300 Shipped anywhere in the continental US.

This board is in nearly new condition. My friend bought it and rode it maybe 4 times.

The trucks are GI Bionics with white torsion cubes.


Thanks for clarifying.... missed that. Guess I wasn't expecting someone to "spec" the cubes and then turn around the board so quickly. When you assume.... :embarrased:

ATB,
Sam

indigo_wolf - 3-10-2011 at 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
i was looking at the MBS stuff and they just seem a little pricey for what they are, the Trampa stuff seems really nice but also really expensive, nothing against scrub but id rather avoid buying from over seas


Scrub doesn't necessarily mean overseas shipping. They have a distribution channel in the US too.
There are a fair number of Scrub deailers in the US. Some PKF dealers that carry Scrub are:
Angus at Coastalwindsports.com
Dino at Dakitez.com
Don at Powerkiteplace.com
Rian at EastCoastKitesports.com

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
the more im thinking about it the more im leaning towards the conflict that is $200, any cons to that besides parts? how hard is it to find torsion blocks for these?

Torsion blocks are getting harder and harder to find through retail channels. They come up every once in awhile on B/S/T sections of various forums.

Brand new, GI boards were as expensive as MBS.

Big question is... do you think you will be able to get $200 worth of giggles and screams before you have to look at replacing/upgrading stuff.

FWIW: Sticker shock was probably the reason people were recommending a used/demo board for your first go around.

ATB,
Sam

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 03:13 PM

well im thinking a $300 cap on a first board would be a decent place to start, if i can find a great used one at $200 then thats fantastic, if its not that great then ill just keep looking. id rather find something that will last and not fall apart under my feet than something just for a few times out that i will grow bored of quickly

Ill go check out those sites but im still feeling like i can get a better board if i go used

how is a wood deck compared to a composite or carbon fiber?

do they hold up alright? do they ride different? im seeing lots of different deck materials and dont really know how they stack up against one another

rtz - 3-10-2011 at 03:18 PM

Some landboards listed at the bottom of the list:

http://kitesurfdallas.com/G_f_S_Frame.htm

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 03:25 PM

anyone have any experience/opinions on the MBS core 95?

rtz - 3-10-2011 at 03:27 PM

The top right corner: http://kitesurfdallas.com/

B-Roc - 3-10-2011 at 03:55 PM

Yes, as Sam stated, I am the guy who was looking for the anti-friction plates and it took me 2 years to find some (from a fellow forum member here). I have been riding one board since April of 2006 and the plates are still useable but there is more play in them then there once was. The softer your cubes, the quicker you wear them down. The more you ride and carve, the quicker you wear them down. But its relative. I can still ride my 2006 pair no problemo I just wanted to tighten them up.

I have a new pair of bionics that came with one fouled friction plate (adhesive only on the center not on the ends / tips. I fixed it myself with dual-sided adhesive but that is less stiff then the factory backed glue and created some wobble. It is actually that truck that I was most interested in fixing, not the older pair. The older pair I wanted to tighten up. The newer pair I wanted to fix so both trucks had equal play (one was tight, the other had a lot of play). All is good now with the newer plates.

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 05:07 PM

still looking for opinions on these two boards

the patrol and the conflict up for grabs on here, which is better? conflict is $100 cheaper, is a patrol going to be worth a extra $100?

from what iv been told the two big differences are the deck material and the hubs, im assuming the aluminum hubs are better but im not sure which deck is better

erratic winds - 3-10-2011 at 07:03 PM

I ride GI and I would chose the conflict over the patrol. I am unhappy that the company isn't doing well, but it's not preventing me from recommending the product that's done so great for me for years!

The #1 key in buying a deck (in my opinion) is STANCE WIDTH. Find out how wide your stance is and find a board that will accept that. I love my prodigy90 deck but it's just too small of a stance for my taste, so I ride my AK103 all the time. Do you know your stance width? jump up in the air a bit and land with your feet about shoulder width apart, whatever is comfortable for you. How far apart are your feet? Do this several times, taking measurements each time. Whatever your average distance is, that's a good stance width measurement to work with.

lamrith - 3-10-2011 at 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by erratic winds
The #1 key in buying a deck (in my opinion) is STANCE WIDTH. Find out how wide your stance is and find a board that will accept that. I love my prodigy90 deck but it's just too small of a stance for my taste, so I ride my AK103 all the time. Do you know your stance width? jump up in the air a bit and land with your feet about shoulder width apart, whatever is comfortable for you. How far apart are your feet? Do this several times, taking measurements each time. Whatever your average distance is, that's a good stance width measurement to work with.


COOl info/tip there..

rtz - 3-10-2011 at 07:17 PM

If you just want something cheap to start out on or practice with; do a google search for "SDS Mountain Board". Less then $100 new(be sure it's the new version with foot straps).

http://www.sdsskateboards.com/completesmountain.htm

Or if you want the best money can buy; Trampa all day:


http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=19640

lamrith - 3-10-2011 at 07:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rtz
If you just want something cheap to start out on or practice with; do a google search for "SDS Mountain Board". Less then $100 new(be sure it's the new version with foot straps).

http://www.sdsskateboards.com/completesmountain.htm



HRMMMM Are any of the parts on that board "standard"? If I wear out tires, wheels, bearings, trucks, could I buy better ones to upgrade or would I have to toss whole thing and buy new?

burritobandit - 3-10-2011 at 08:37 PM

If you go with SDS, be mindful that you are getting the newest/latest version with the maple deck. The older versions used some other material for the deck, and they felt very flimsy just standing on them.

stetson05 - 3-10-2011 at 08:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
anyone have any experience/opinions on the MBS core 95?


I ride the Core 95. I really don't jump much but when I do the flex of the board really smooths out the landing (less impact than landing on my feet) I really like the core 95 better than the 90 but it is pretty good too. I like the bindings on them both. The 95 has nicer trucks, Vector, which look pretty tough. Like I said it is nicer than the core 90 but the difference is about $100 and I am not sure it is that much nicer for what I do which is mainly mow the lawn. Some day I will get better at tricks and the 95 will be just fine. Never had a sds board but I would probably stick with a GI, MBS, scrub or Trampa unless you are pretty light.

burritobandit - 3-10-2011 at 08:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lamrith
Quote:
Originally posted by rtz
If you just want something cheap to start out on or practice with; do a google search for "SDS Mountain Board". Less then $100 new(be sure it's the new version with foot straps).

http://www.sdsskateboards.com/completesmountain.htm



HRMMMM Are any of the parts on that board "standard"? If I wear out tires, wheels, bearings, trucks, could I buy better ones to upgrade or would I have to toss whole thing and buy new?


They are standard. I could swap trucks/wheels/bearings if I wanted. The old deck wasn't equipped with proper bindings- they just had some plastic hooks to put your foot against. It appears that the new version has proper, basic bindings.

lamrith - 3-10-2011 at 08:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by burritobandit
Quote:
Originally posted by lamrith
Quote:
Originally posted by rtz
If you just want something cheap to start out on or practice with; do a google search for "SDS Mountain Board". Less then $100 new(be sure it's the new version with foot straps).

http://www.sdsskateboards.com/completesmountain.htm



HRMMMM Are any of the parts on that board "standard"? If I wear out tires, wheels, bearings, trucks, could I buy better ones to upgrade or would I have to toss whole thing and buy new?


They are standard. I could swap trucks/wheels/bearings if I wanted. The old deck wasn't equipped with proper bindings- they just had some plastic hooks to put your foot against. It appears that the new version has proper, basic bindings.


Hrmm even with the crap binding I just need to get moving. Flying static is fun, but has been killing my hands/arms, if I can get some motion it will drop the load a bit. Having snowboarded, this would be the most inexpensive way to do that and is super portable.

Trbo323 - 3-10-2011 at 11:25 PM

k, if the conflict is in decent condition i think i will jump on that then

indigo_wolf - 3-10-2011 at 11:50 PM

Check what year it is.

If both the Patrol and Conflict are 2010, then it's a bargain.

Originally the Conflict was more expensive than the Conflict.

I expect that Windzup has just priced it to MOVE because they are clearing out there store for the new 2012 winter gear.

Sorry I didn't get a chance to reply to your U2U. Fell asleep early because I was up the night before last. Just got woken up by a terrified dog (lightning and thunder).... it's going to be a long night.

ATB,
Sam

erratic winds - 4-10-2011 at 05:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by indigo_wolf
Check what year it is.

If both the Patrol and Conflict are 2010, then it's a bargain.

Originally the Conflict was more expensive than the Conflict.


More coffee, sam!.....well, you probably just needed a bit more sleep.

indigo_wolf - 4-10-2011 at 06:19 AM

That's what happens when a terrified dog wakes you up in the middle of the night when you have gone a night without. Despite all best efforts, she still thinks she is a lap dog at 40-50 lbs.

It was supposed to read:

The 2010 Conflict was originally more expensive than the 2010 Patrol.

I fell alseep long enough to get woken up for the morning feeding of the fuzzy hordes... working on the second cup of coffee and the brain cells are still stumbling around.

ATB,
Sam

lamrith - 4-10-2011 at 06:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by indigo_wolf
That's what happens when a terrified dog wakes you up in the middle of the night when you have gone a night without. Despite all best efforts, she still thinks she is a lap dog at 40-50 lbs.


Hrmmm Trademark idea!

Sam you need to make a pet bed that is shaped and patterned like a pair of legs... Maybe a small heating blanket element so it is warm like the real thing..? Just sayin. Could hit the 2nd hand store and get a pair of oversized jeans, sew up, stuff, etc..:singing:

Trbo323 - 4-10-2011 at 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by indigo_wolf
Check what year it is.

If both the Patrol and Conflict are 2010, then it's a bargain.

Originally the Conflict was more expensive than the Conflict.

I expect that Windzup has just priced it to MOVE because they are clearing out there store for the new 2012 winter gear.


do you know what they changed? and yes the one from windzup is the one i am most interested in, heres the other two iv found

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=18462

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=18491

i see that the newest conflict is not a wood deck, is this a plus? nobody has answered me on my question about the decks yet, i really dont know what the difference is and what it means for a board. without any knowledge on it im assuming that a non-wood deck is typically better than a wood deck but id like to hear what you guys have to say on it

at what point did they change the deck on the conflict?

indigo_wolf - 4-10-2011 at 09:27 PM

Generally, if a mountainboard deck is made of wood, it is maple. The amount of stiffness in the deck is determined by the number of layers/plys used. It tends to make for a heavier board, that is (over time) more prone to water damage and delamination if the board is not cared for properly.

Synthetic boards are more expensive but hold up better and retain their flex characteristics over time. Depending on the board some of the synthetics useds in mountainboards include fiberglass, kevlar, carbon fiber, and/or mil-spec thermoplastics.

Pre-2010 Patrol 106 - http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=18462 (First link in your post)


2010 Patrol - http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=18491 (Second link in your post)

click for larger version

Between the two Patrols they changed the graphics. The earlier Patrol (106) is 106 cm (41.7 inches) long. In 2010, they lengthened the board to 110.4 cms (43.5 inches).

By comparison, the Conflict is 115.8 cm (45.6 inches).

Both Patrols are made of what they refer to as Bomberlite. This is a board that is made of layers of maple and fiberglass (so it's a bit of a hybrid). To this they add a grippy vinyl top and bottom coat which the board graphics are applied to.

In 2010, they also added a PTEX base to the bottom of the Patrol that was not there in previous years. PTEX is a high density polyethelene that's very abrasion resistant and slick. This basically facilitates doing board slides and protects the bottom of the board. If the PTEX bottom gets gouged or scored, it can be repaired in the same way as snowboard bottoms are.

As far as I know the Conflict has always been a Heliocore deck. Heliocore is another GI trademark name. It basically layers of composite materials (GI never specified what composites) over a injection molded foam core. The flex characteristics are fine tuned with fiberglass "stringers" (inserts) that run the length of the board.

Hopefully that covers most of your questions.

FWIW: A lot of people have started on lower specs boards than any of the three you are looking at.

ATB,
Sam

Trbo323 - 4-10-2011 at 10:16 PM

ya i expected that, but im not really one to stick with a beginner setup for long so i typically just save money in the long run by skipping over it, iv done it with pretty much all of my hobbies/sports and while it causes a few headaches here and there it typically works out for the better.

thanks for the description on the decks, that helps a TON

im familiar with ptex and repairing it, i snowboard as well (another reason i wanted to get into kites)

WELDNGOD - 11-10-2011 at 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Trbo323
ya i expected that, but im not really one to stick with a beginner setup for long so i typically just save money in the long run by skipping over it, iv done it with pretty much all of my hobbies/sports and while it causes a few headaches here and there it typically works out for the better.

thanks for the description on the decks, that helps a TON

im familiar with ptex and repairing it, i snowboard as well (another reason i wanted to get into kites)



Just go ahead and save a little longer and get the last board you ever will need . A TRAMPA! best money can buy, and you can get any parts you want later to bling it out.
I started out with a Scrub Quasar, but I always wanted a TRAMPA. And they are worth the additional loot :thumbup:

WELDNGOD - 11-10-2011 at 03:35 PM

Oh yeah, they got titanium kingpins and axles now too! I got the Ti king pins already ,next is the 10mm Ti axle hangers. The hangers are 77 dollars each.

Trbo323 - 12-10-2011 at 09:47 AM

picked up a 2010 GI conflict for $250 shipped

WELDNGOD - 12-10-2011 at 02:31 PM

That'll work for your first year or two. By then you will want to boost big and land hard. Then you will WANT a TRAMPA. You'll see.... enjoy and ARMOR UP!

erratic winds - 12-10-2011 at 02:54 PM

Absolutely second the ARMOR UP!

HillBilly Crash pads are phenomenal. Buy em and love them.

Trbo323 - 13-10-2011 at 07:49 AM

got some crash pants and elbow pads from paintball already and a helmet from snowboarding, if i really want to go crazy i have some upper body armor for my ATV (looks more like a upper torso and arms bullet proof vest) but i think that one will be a bit more constricting than the other stuff

erratic winds - 13-10-2011 at 08:57 AM

Trbo-wear the armor, you'll be thankful you did. I wear a summer-weight armored motorcycle jacket up top, no loss in mobility.

WELDNGOD - 13-10-2011 at 04:12 PM

I flipped a kite buggy and had surgery earlier this yr., Wear the upper armor. I got some now from Rockgarden,wear it anytime i'm in the #@%$#!pit.