Power Kite Forum - Landsegler Disc Wheels

Landsegler Disc Wheels

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 07:59 AM

Landsegler Manufaktur

Wexler and I are really excited to have the opportunity to ride with Landsegler Manufaktur wheels from Germany. These wheels are amazingly strong and light. Their strength was readily apparent to anyone watching Stephan and Dirix Mano riding hard on Thursday at NABX in the strong winds. Sliding sideways on a surface more grippy than pavement and even on 2 wheels in a race buggy. Having these wheels will allow us to travel at speed with a tire/wheel system designed for the task.

The wheels are so lightweight, there shouldn't be any weight drawback with the low rolling mass. I'll also be relieved about tire wear. Wexler and I have worn out 6 tires between us since moving here and the motorcycle style tires should prove much more durable for the conditions here.

Thanks again to Landsegler for the opportunity to get to ride with their fine product.

cheezycheese - 20-4-2012 at 08:42 AM

Oooohhh.... Those are sexy !!! Did you actually get to ride on them at NABX ?

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 09:22 AM

I sat in Stephan's buggy and noticed how light and quick to roll it was. He is another size larger than me so I had gaps between me and the siderails so I didn't ask to take it out. These wheels just seem featherlight. This is a new motivation to see what speeds are available out there even for us mortals. :bouncy:

popeyethewelder - 20-4-2012 at 09:46 AM

Congratulations Bob, all good things come to he who waits....I expect PBs to rise now then

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 10:13 AM

Pops congratulations to you as well! I feel humbled by this opportunity we've been given and also by the talent it places me alongside. I certainly can't blame any lack of performance on any of my equipment or riding location. I'm very anxious to learn the ways of disc wheels on the playa.

bigkid - 20-4-2012 at 10:13 AM

I used Stephans wheels/tires on my MG before I sent them off to you to give to Stephan. They are nice on the beach also, as long as it was hard hard hard pack. If it wasn't you had better have some speed up or you won't go. They rode very well, like being on a rail. The only thing I didn't like was that it raised the CG of the bug. Tip over was much easier than with the barrow style.
Are you going to be able to get tires here locally or will you have to send for them?
I know Stephan went through 3 sets while he was here this year,(3 sets last year). With all the riding I did with them and all that I know, I will stick with the smooth Carlisle when I want to get serious and the cheep barrows when I'm not.
How much changing will you have to do to the the bugs to make them work? Forks, down tube, fender,?
You will like the ride of them, they smooth out the lake bed real nice.

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 10:26 AM

Good to hear Jeff. I'm going to add fork extender plates to my buggy as well as the longer downtube. With those adjustments and the adjustability of the rear axle height, I expect to be able to put my seat and COG right where they are with barrows. The current fender on my buggy was originally used by Ozzy with disc wheels so that should stay the same.

For beach riding, they have a wider wheel that should help with getting over soft spots better. That wheel looks to be 4-5" wide as opposed to the narrow wheel for lakebed riding. Popeye will be running these wider beach wheels.

I'm hoping since I ride less aggressively than Stephan that I might get a boost in tire mileage since there is so much more rubber around the larger diameter wheel as well as rubber compounds designed for high mileage on pavement. Did you notice the wheel diameter and tire size on Stephan's wheels?

bigkid - 20-4-2012 at 10:39 AM

I don't remember the sizes but I did at one time look into getting the tires here and they are motorcycle tires that cost at the local bike shop, 189.99 per tire, the tread was a bit different. The same ones that were on the bug were 0ver 200.00 plus shipping and they came from Germany. At 1000.00 per set for wheels was a bit more than I would have spent for the little bit I would gain.
But being a team rider, I'm sure Stephan got a better deal.
One thing that I did notice is that you might want to put on a camber adjustment to even out the wear on the tires. They wear on one side more than the other, you could always rotate the wheels and tires to get a bit more out of the tread.
On the camber you only need about 2 to 3 degrees depending on the amount of speed and slide.

bigkid - 20-4-2012 at 10:44 AM

Come to think about it when I shipped them to you the boxes were 24x24, so I am guessing the wheels would be 18" to 20" diameter.

popeyethewelder - 20-4-2012 at 11:45 AM

I have a feeling I heard the rims alone were 17" a while back, certainly much smaller than the 19" I have already

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 11:49 AM

I've heard from Landsegler that they are 16" rims and the tire size is 2.75 width with about a 22" overall diameter.

van - 20-4-2012 at 07:36 PM

What kind of pricing are these wheels? Would be nice to get a set.

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 08:41 PM

One of the owners mentioned in a facebook discussion on a photo that the price would be ~$1400 for a set of 3. Their site says pricing is soon to come so there could be changes or confirmation.

Todd - 20-4-2012 at 08:49 PM

Congratulations you three with the new sponsorship... proud of you guys. Wouldn't mind a set myself for the future.

BeamerBob - 13-7-2012 at 11:25 PM

Well after several months of getting parts ordered and made to modify our buggies and then returning from a 3 week trip out of town, I now have the buggies converted to run the Landsegler disc wheels.

I'm very pleased with how they look on the buggies and both buggies were able to adjust to put the seats right down to a couple inches off the ground like they were before. Popeye made me a new fork and downtube so the Hero buggy is still OEM PTW. That put the front of the buggy right back where it was before. I rotated the rear axle so the tabs were underneath the axle tube placing the rear of the buggy within an inch of original with barrows.

The Apexx was easy to modify. I ordered the larger downtube and fork extender plates which sorted the front perfectly. The Apexx has a built in adjuster to fine tune the rear attachment point of the side rails to the axle.

click to see other pics by Flickrhttp://www.flickr.com/people/bobmuse/,

bigkid - 13-7-2012 at 11:32 PM

Thanks Bobby, the Hero is lookin Good. :thumbup:

BeamerBob - 13-7-2012 at 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
Thanks Bobby, the Hero is lookin Good. :thumbup:

I hoped it would meet with your satisfaction Jeff! :lol:

BEC - 14-7-2012 at 05:43 AM

Now that you guys have all these new cool looking wheels...Don't you want to get rid of the old, nasty, ugly, I don't use these anymore aluminum wheels that would fit my flexifoil bug?:D

BeamerBob - 14-7-2012 at 08:15 AM

As a matter of fact, I would sell one set. They have a rather new set of smoothies mounted up.

RonH - 15-7-2012 at 04:16 PM

those buggies look too clean:o

Very nice :cool:

BeamerBob - 15-7-2012 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RonH
those buggies look too clean:o

Very nice :cool:

They got a bath for pictures! :smug:

rocfighter - 16-7-2012 at 05:58 AM

Bobby do those old ugly rims have Bigfoot tires on them? I might be interested in the tires!!

BeamerBob - 16-7-2012 at 07:40 AM

Not much sense in running expensive thin rubber bigfoots on the playa. They wouldn't last a day of hard riding. Both my sets of Ally wheels have Carlisle smoothies mounted. 16".

rocfighter - 16-7-2012 at 11:16 AM

GOOD point.

snowspider - 16-7-2012 at 06:00 PM

I feel faster just looking at those buggies! :thumbup:

Cheddarhead - 16-7-2012 at 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
Both my sets of Ally wheels have Carlisle smoothies mounted. 16".

Bob, where did you find 16" carlisle smoothies? I Have only seen the straight ribbed in 16 inch.

Sorry for the hi-jack.

BeamerBob - 16-7-2012 at 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cheddarhead

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
Both my sets of Ally wheels have Carlisle smoothies mounted. 16".

Bob, where did you find 16" carlisle smoothies? I Have only seen the straight ribbed in 16 inch.

Sorry for the hi-jack.

AWOC tires The smoothies are what most use on the lakebeds.

BeamerBob - 31-7-2012 at 09:42 AM

Just announced by Landsegler Manufaktur. Due to volume purchase of manufacturing materials, wheel packages have now been reduced significantly. Any wheel and tire combo is now € 795. At today's conversion, that comes out to just under $1000 plus shipping which is about $75 to the US. This might bring them more in budget for someone looking for that extra edge these lightweight wheels can provide.

bigkid - 31-7-2012 at 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
Just announced by Landsegler Manufaktur. Due to volume purchase of manufacturing materials, wheel packages have now been reduced significantly. Any wheel and tire combo is now € 795. At today's conversion, that comes out to just under $1000 plus shipping which is about $75 to the US. This might bring them more in budget for someone looking for that extra edge these lightweight wheels can provide.

How is that better than before? I was told $1000.00 with shipping.:puzzled:

BeamerBob - 31-7-2012 at 10:28 AM

Until today, their pricing has been almost $1500. As I checked their website to see if the old pricing was still there, I see that prices to US customers are now only about $850 since the European VAT tax doesn't apply to us. At that price, I'm not sure it can be justified searching for motorcycle wheels (then tires) that are quite a bit heavier.

bigkid - 31-7-2012 at 10:33 AM

I never looked on the website, I called and talked to a real person.
I need to learn a few more languages, it's to hard to google translate on the phone. :crazy:

WELDNGOD - 19-8-2012 at 06:54 AM

If I spend $1000 on wheels ....They better say HARLEY DAVIDSON on em'.. :lol:

BeamerBob - 30-9-2012 at 08:14 PM

Got my first good day with reasonably smooth winds on the landsegler wheels today. Most of my 40 miles were in the 30-35 mph range but had 4 runs that were over 40 and a good gust that took me to 52 mph.

I thought the Apexx was as secure and stable as it could get but I have to say that these wheels have made a noticeable improvement. There is something about the advantage of the COG and tow point being at or below the axle height. It's like the stability of running bigfoot lites but these wheels/tires weigh half what my smoothie barrows weighed. The buggy just tracks straighter somehow, and accelerates really well. I've had the kite drop down into the power zone and just point the buggy towards the kite when it pops open in the power and its like whoosh, gone and back to speed.

With the barrows, I would frequently notice balance and wobble issues probably due to uneven wear. This would show up over 45-50 mph. I don't even notice the rotation of the wheels with these Landseglers. These wheels also somehow seem to just allow the buggy to turn under power more, without so much scrubbing. As has been said before, like the buggy is on rails.

As calm as things were at 45 and 52 today, I look forward to my next runs over 60 and beyond. These wheels are made to go fast. And they will with the really narrow contact patch with the ground. they seem to barely touch with a bicycle thin track on the ground maybe a third of the track with barrows on.

BeamerBob - 13-11-2012 at 07:17 PM

A discussion came up about Landsegler wheels on another thread and I diverted that discussion to this thread to avoid a hijack of that thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cheddarhead
How are these priced compared to the landsegler wheels?

Set of 3 Landegler wheels are about $850 with tires and tubes mounted and spoke covers mounted in place. They also can come with either 2 or 3 heavy duty carry bags for transport and an air filler hose. Wheels are ready to bolt on and run.

Landseglers are 16" rims with about a 22" overall diameter.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cheddarhead
Thanks Bob, does one just order them off their site? Obviously there would have to be a money conversion in there somewhere. Is shipping a killer? Just wondering, Christmas isn't too far away ya know.

Shipping is shown as 60 Euros to US. They take paypal or direct bank transfer. I'd just email them to get things set up. Paypal will let you choose the currency you want to pay in. They will convert your US funds to Euros in the transfer.

bigkid - 13-11-2012 at 07:42 PM

so are the tires the skinny ones or the wide ones? And are all 3 wheels 20mm or just the rear? Do they come with mounting bolts, and all the spacers? Are they ready to mount? What about the front fork? How easy is it to get the tires replaced? I know Stephan went through 3 sets at NABX and the set left on the wheels at the end were completely bald on one side.

BeamerBob - 13-11-2012 at 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
so are the tires the skinny ones or the wide ones? And are all 3 wheels 20mm or just the rear? Do they come with mounting bolts, and all the spacers? Are they ready to mount? What about the front fork? How easy is it to get the tires replaced? I know Stephan went through 3 sets at NABX and the set left on the wheels at the end were completely bald on one side.

Phew, that's a lot of questions from someone that has already used these wheels but I'm happy to help and maybe someone else will benefit from the explanation, not knowing what is involved in running disc wheels.

Sizes available
You can order any of 3 different widths of tires. "nabx" and "wet" setups are the 80mm hubs with appropriate tires for their designation. Then there is the "beach" setup which is a 100mm wheel and a wider tire. "Beach" setup would be more appropriate for most beach locations to better handle some sand that isn't well packed. Popeye said he didn't intend to run any sort of bigfoot tire again after getting the beach Landseglers. For reference, Wexler and I run the "NABX" version which is the same as Stephan and Mano were running at NABX '12.

Bearings and axles
All Landsegler wheels come with 20mm bearings. I know bushings are available if this doesn't fit other size buggy axles. No mounting bolts are included, just like buying wheels for anything else. I had bolts for the Ivanpah that are the fine thread. and 2 different size sets of bolts for the Apexx with the more common course thread. Of course none of what I had were appropriate for the Landsegler wheels so to avoid any further bolt purchases, I bought a length of threaded rod and cut stub axles to length and use locknuts to secure the wheels on.

Spacers
The wheels come with internal spacers but the buyer would need to have front axle external spacers made to fit their fork. There is no standard fork width and even among production forks there is variation, so it's best to have them made for your particular fork.

Front Forks
They are ready to mount if you have a fork they fit in and spacers made. I just traded for a libre buggy that has a factory front fork already able to mount these wheels on, so you might need to make provisions to run these wheels or you might be ready. It depends on how your equipment is set up. Most forks that will run bigfoots can run this size disc wheel right away.

Tire Wear and Replacement
I haven't had to change tires yet and with my riding style can't even see that I've worn the tires at all with over 110 miles on them. I've had 2 sessions on them and have been over 50 mph each session so it's not like I've puttered around on them. I'm not sure how difficult they are to change. I've found similar sized motorcycle tires for under $40 each so these won't be much more expensive to replace than barrow smoothies, and look to not have to be changed as often. Discussing tire wear with Stephan as a baseline is like referring to Miguel Cabrera as average at batting this past year. Stephan is about 280 lbs and the most aggressive buggier I've ever seen. He's also the third fastest buggier in the world, so I'd expect him to wear through some tires quickly with 5-6 days to get his lakebed riding in for a year or longer. Normal buggiers aren't going to see that level of tire wear.

Camber
There has been some discussion about the benefits of adding camber to the rear axle wheels. The engineers at Landsegler have designed and manufactured these wheels to a level that they do not recommend adding camber, to allow for full performance and the least amount of drag without worrying about compromising the integrity of the wheels.

The Landsegler wheels might not be for everyone but as a discerning buggier, I'm really appreciating every aspect of running them on our buggies. If I didn't have them, I'd be saving my lunch money to get a set now that I've had a chance to run them on the lakebed.

I'm happy to answer any more questions you might have and there is a link to their website in my signature if you want to look into them further as well.

Cheddarhead - 14-11-2012 at 06:54 PM

Thanks for all the detailed info, you answered alot of my questions as well. As Van once stated, bigfoot style wheels are really big slobs on grass and require soooo much power to keep any speed. I now know that they are really only appropriate for the beach and not much else. Should have just stuck with barrows from the start and I would have been much more satisfied. Live and learn I guess. Even though a set of Landsegler would be pricey, I'm almost convinced it would equal way less resistance. I suppose I could just get two more 4x8 rims and a few barrows and call it a day. That would be the economical approach, but the cool factor wouldn't quite be there. I always have to torture myself this way. We'll see how it plays out before next summer.

bobsalinas - 15-11-2012 at 08:41 AM

correct me if wrong but those are moped tires and rims with a bearing race modification. yes or no?

bigkid - 15-11-2012 at 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bobsalinas
correct me if wrong but those are moped tires and rims with a bearing race modification. yes or no?

yes, thats what mine were. from what I remember they were the first ones made with the new strait spoke hub.

BeamerBob - 15-11-2012 at 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid

Quote:

Originally posted by bobsalinas
correct me if wrong but those are moped tires and rims with a bearing race modification. yes or no?

yes, thats what mine were. from what I remember they were the first ones made with the new strait spoke hub.

landsegler wheels aren't modified from anything at all. They are engineered and made piece by piece in house. Moped wheels don't have to be designed to sustain high lateral loads. There is loads of information on their website about their design and mfg. process.

These are the tires that came on my nabx wheels and they are shown as motorcycle tires. Heidenau K55

LS hub drill by BMuse1, on Flickr

LS hub by BMuse1, on Flickr

MDK - 15-11-2012 at 10:13 AM

Thanks Bobby! they made the right choice having you as a team rider! oh and I am saving my lunch money

bigkid - 15-11-2012 at 10:39 AM

I found the old tires off the wheels I had and they are not the same as yours Bobby. Good to see they progressed to the wider rims and the wider tire, I see from the pic the spokes fasten on each side of the rim and not in the middle as the ones I had.
Mine were the ones that Stephan had when he did his 70 something speed run at NABX the first year, wonder why they beefed up the rim?
I will have to take a look at yours to see what the difference is when I come to NABX if you are not out breaking speed records yourself. Besides I need to check on my Hero.:D

BeamerBob - 15-11-2012 at 11:04 AM

Thanks buddy! MDK you could run these on your bigfoot fork or I know a guy that can custom make you a fork that will look perfect on the Playa buggy. ;-) You already have the downtube and your rear axle is adjustable too. You are welcome to run the Hero buggy at nabx or whenever we can get together to see how you like them.

Edit: Jeff you are welcome to take either of my buggies for a run with the wheels if you like.

I looked at mine and the spokes go to the center of the rim. I think the spoke connection spreads out on the beach wheel though since it is quite a bit wider than the nabx wheel and the hub is wider too.

popeyethewelder - 15-11-2012 at 12:52 PM

Having seen a guy the size of Stephan doing the things he was doing with those thinner NABX wheels on one of the most abrasive surfaces in the world, scrubbing high speed off hard, and the rest of the time putting enormous stress on the rims two wheeling more than convinced me the Lansegler wheels were much much better than anything else I had ever seen......by a million miles, not only extremely strong but unbelievably light too, an amazing combination.

There are others out there already trying to copy and play catch up selling their's for a few $$ cheaper, but they have not spent over two years testing not only on kite buggies, but land yachts......they have not done the scientific research in universities that Landsegler have done, they have left no stone un turned to offer us the perfect wheels.

I remember contacting and emailing Landsegler well over two years ago asking again and again if I could have some of those wheels, but although very politely every time telling me sorry, these wheels are still not ready, again and again, I kept getting the same answer.

Finaly I got my hands on the beach version, the perfect intermediate wheel between a full bigfoot and a full disc wheel...my buggy now weighs half of what it did, obviously they are not as good as full bigfoots in really soft sand, but with the buggy weighing half as much as with bigfoots, its not so much of an issue.

I love them, and they have not left my buggy since receiving them.

MDK - 15-11-2012 at 08:37 PM

Thanks Bobby, Pops is making a fork

I hope to have the Playa set up before NABX...anyone need a house plan drawn?

Bobby thanks! but I'm sure that they are the right wheel for me, you know where I will be riding 98% of the time

BeamerBob - 16-11-2012 at 10:40 AM

Mike, you are one of the few that I know that skips all the intermediate steps in this sport and goes straight for the best there is. Can't wait to run with you again! I want some video and pics of you and Wexler running together this year. I'll try to keep up!

MDK - 16-11-2012 at 11:07 AM

LOL! I think the keeping up will be my struggle

buggeyed ran circles around me at Alvord

I too am looking forward to riding with you guy's....well if I can keep up

BeamerBob - 4-2-2013 at 11:12 AM

Well to answer some questions that came up about replacement tires for the nabx version wheels, I've ordered 2 sets of replacement tires so we are prepared when our original tires need replacing. Neither shipping nor purchase price was nearly as expected.

At first, I tried to buy the same tire locally. They were available but for over $70 each. I looked into it further and found I can order them from Germany and pay shipping for about $36 a tire. I'm thrilled with that since the smoothie barrows cost about $30 each and didn't last a third as many miles. Not to mention the performance and ride advantages I've gained with this wheel/tire combination.

If replacement tires were a problem you didn't want to deal with, this should remove that stumbling block from consideration. Most riders could run a set of these tires for multiple years with typical riding at nabx. I've got over 500 miles on mine now and they are barely starting to show wear.

If anyone has questions, I'm happy to help out.

jantie - 9-2-2013 at 02:39 PM

those wheels look awesome..!!!

BeamerBob - 9-2-2013 at 07:31 PM

Thanks Jantie. They ride even better than they look. I couldn't give them up.

BeamerBob - 13-5-2013 at 12:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by revpaul

Quote: Originally posted by dragonfly carbon products

like this one ?

that's not really a disc wheel by my definition.
it's just a regular wheel with the round piece of CF tie-wrapped to the spokes....opposite of weight savings...perhaps better aerodynamics(?).
a real disc wheel, by my definition, is a wheel with no spokes. the hub and rim is supported by the actual disc. I have some and they cost about $350 a piece if you can find them.
the disc is an integral part of the wheel and not just a piece stuck to the wheel.
Paul

It would be quite unfair to refer to Landsegler wheels as "regular wheels". They are a spoked wheel designed from hub to rim to be strong and light with the unique requirement that they be able to withstand tremendous side loads. I think they are called disc wheels because that is what they most closely compare to in appearance and width. The bicycle industry commonly refers to spoked wheels with external covers fitted as "disc wheels" so Landsegler's use of the term is not new.

Some racing rules require wheels with any open spaces to be covered. The spokes spinning through the air at higher speeds would create aerodynamic drag so there is a functional benefit to the covers being fitted as well. The cover's purpose is not to deceive or pretend anything. In fact, the wheels are quite a beautiful feat of engineering to see with the covers off. The covers are actually fastened with nylon nuts and bolts that fit within recesses in the covers. There are no tiewraps used. Nothing about landsegler wheels are second rate and I can't find where any shortcuts were taken.

These wheels weigh about 8.8 lbs with tires and covers installed, about the same as 4ply smoothies mounted to standard 2.5X8 plastic wheels. Overall diameter is about 22". I imagine solid disc wheels would have to be really heavy? I'm surprised they cost so much too. The Landsegler wheels are less than $300 each shipped to US from Germany.