Power Kite Forum

what to buy, HELP

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 12:12 PM

hello firstly let me say that i am not a complete and utter newbie to this sport/hobby, although i am looking at progressing into it by buying a landboard or buggy, along with a 4-line kite, i just do not know were to start looking in terms of what size kite to go for as a first time four line, and what is a good size for either mode of transport, furthemore what buggy to buy, as in brand, are they all similar or is it a case of you get wht you pay for.
:puzzled:

shehatesmyhobbies - 7-9-2012 at 12:50 PM

Hi, welcome to the forum, and the addiction. First I will ask what experience do you have in traction kites. (what have you flown). Second, how much do you weigh, and what are your flying conditions. Are you flying on the beach, on a grass field, what is your wind average. Usually we suggest getting a 3m kite, something like a Beamer, Toxic, Hornet, maybe even a Viper. (these are just a couple of different kites, and a couple of different manufacturers). If you have some experience with a 3m kite, you could possibly move up to a 4 or 5m kite. You would want a kite with a little higher aspect ratio for the buggy and board, something that will fly out and give you power to the edge of the window.

As far as boards, there are a lot of different makes and price ranges on boards, There are Trampa boards, (which we sell) Scrub boards ( we also sell), GI, MBS, and so on.

Buggies also differ in models and price range. Comfort and price are usually the factors that most people keep in mind when buying a buggy.

Where do you live, there may be someone around you that can get with you and let you try some stuff out.

Feel free to give me a call and we can chat and see what it is you are looking to get into.

shehatesmyhobbies - 7-9-2012 at 12:52 PM

Oh and make sure you buy from a reputable shop or person that is trusted on this site, Some of the deals are great on ebay, if you see something that you like, shoot it by us and we can help make sure you don't wast your money. It is very tempting at times, but it can also cost you in the long run.

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 01:04 PM

thanks should have probably mention experience, and flying areas, i have flown a few different sized kites currently owning a exit 1.4m, which got me into this hobby, i also have a 2.2m eolo radsail, although i have flown either a 2.8m or 3m quad line very briefly for about 10-15 minutes at most, usage would be on a beach mainly, i live in the UK and live about an hour or so in both east or west directions, wind speeds can also vary, on average the places i have been get at least 10mph roughly 8.5knots and a max of about 25mph again roughly 21knots, although i have only flown in between 15 and 19mph, 13 to 16 knots"varies each time" as for weight im roughly 95kg if height is necesary 6 foot 3"

shehatesmyhobbies - 7-9-2012 at 01:10 PM

Being you have a little experience, you could buy a 4 or 5m, kite, you would just have to have some mad respect for it. In 25mph winds, a 5m kite will be handfull if you are not prepared that's for sure. But if you are flying in avrg winds 15-19mph it would work well in the buggy and on the board. You are surrounded by kiters in the UK, I am sure that someone on here will chime in and meet up with you. I guess the phone call will be out of the question:lol: That could get expensive quick!

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 01:14 PM

thanks for the advise, for the buggy, is a 5m really the minimum? or is that more for them wind speeds? would you recomend buying the kite, and getting a few days of flying it before thinking of getting into a buggy?

shehatesmyhobbies - 7-9-2012 at 01:24 PM

5m would probably be the minimum for the 15mph winds you were describing as your usual. That will get you going pretty good.

As far as flying the kite, yes buy the kite first, fly the heck out of it, just when you think you got it, try to fly it from pure muscle memory, Not flying blindfolded, but as if you were blindfolded. Your arms and hands become an extension of the kite and kite lines, and vise versa. You should be able to tell where the kite is in the window without looking to see where it is, your arms and hands will help guide the kite to where it should be when you need it to be in the case that you are avoiding an obstical (kid, dog, hole on the beach, another kiter, or just a passer by). Practice brake turns, practice emergency release, practice recovories from unexpected gust or lulls, just learn the kite. I flew my first kite for better than 6 months or so before I even considered getting in the buggy. ( not saying we all will)

While in the buggy or on the board, you have to know how to get yourself out of situations that may arise while riding. This will all be worth it in the long run. Oh and get your self some pads, and a helmet and get used to wearing them.

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 01:28 PM

helmet would have been purchased at the point of getting the buggy/board as for wearing both i am an ex field hockey goalie so am pretty used to wearing larger pads and the helmet, i will look at getting the kite, find one that suits the bill so to speak and take it from there with your advice

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 01:28 PM

would you recomend a skate boarder style helmet or full face, just a query

shehatesmyhobbies - 7-9-2012 at 01:38 PM

Skate helmet would be ok, lots of guys wear skate helmets when ATB'n, in the buggy, I wear a MX helmet. Different strokes for different folks, as long as you are wearing a helmet you will be better off. Remember this saying, "live to ride another day" If you think conditions are sketchy, or may seem to be extremely gusty,you feel uncomfortable, pack up and wait till tomorrow, There will always be more wind!

If you have not looked up kite buggying, or kite landboarding on Youtube or vimeo or what ever your favorite video land is, do so, there are some great videos out there, some learning lessons out there too, like the things not to do.

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 01:55 PM

ive looked on youtube recently as it is only within the last week i have made the decision too take things further in terms of although the videos that i have seen dont give an indication of kite size, and agreed really with the saying, as i have done other sports such as skiing where a similar one was used by the instructor, "live to ski for another day"

shaggs2riches - 7-9-2012 at 01:59 PM

On a land board to be conservative at the beginner stages an 8m ozone access/hq apex will get you going on a hard packed beach. You can get jumping in the higher winds as you get better. A 10m would suit better in that area but your skill may or may not be ready for that much kite.

shehatesmyhobbies - 7-9-2012 at 02:02 PM

yeah, some of them are not very imformative. Check out www.coastalwindsports.com, Angus has some great tutorials on there. Also check out Carl's videos. He has a host of them on PKF in the landboarding section. Also look up the guys right there in the UK, Push Kiting. They have some insane videos!

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 02:14 PM

reading the first tutorials for what you will need, i wear glasses anyway, so would they do, i also own a pear of toughened safety glasses in the same prescription if normal will not do, secondly a camel bag would suffice for drinking water would it not for learning saves having to carry multiple bottles?

oldham82 - 7-9-2012 at 02:29 PM

i have another question for this post, how do de-power kites work, is there essentially a vent in the kite material to release some of the pressure/power being created or am i not thinking properly :bouncy:

shaggs2riches - 7-9-2012 at 03:54 PM

The angle of attack (AoA) that the kite flies in the window is adjusted on the fly by moving the control bar towards or away from the kite. Essentially the front flying/pulling lines come to a Y point and travel down a single line that runs through the bar on a chicken loop and onto your harness. The two outside lines attached to the bar ends are your brake lines and connect to the kites rear bridle lines. When you have the bar pushed away from you towards the kite, it is allowed to fly flatter in the window, moving faster and catching less wind (more or less depower). If you pull the bar in towards you the rear lines tighten and pull the trailing edge down creating the the added angle of attack (also the wingtips scoop in more from the pulley bridle system). The kite is then catching more wind slowing down in the window, but generating more power. Usually the front line has a trim strap that allows you to fine tune the AoA to the conditions you are flying in. Trim is just lengthening or shortening your front lines.

shaggs2riches - 7-9-2012 at 04:07 PM

A depower kite of the same size of a fixed bridle kite will normally have less power. Example is like a 3-4m fixed bridle having a similar power to a 6ish meter depower. Very suggestive though as there are other variables that come to play when talking about size vs power. Also due to the bridle/pulley setup of a depower the kite isn't nearly as responsive as a fixed bridle kite. Its very common to switch to Depower board because of the strain it takes of your arms, and the wider wind range that a Depower has over Fixed Bridle. The Access and Apex that I mentioned are often considered a beginner level kite because of the aspect ration (length vs width) they are more stable and have less lift. The smaller sizes (4-6m) are often carried in an experts quiver as a high winds storm kite; that, will take them home safely in the event conditions turn ugly.

shaggs2riches - 7-9-2012 at 04:10 PM

http://www.tractionkiting.co.uk/traction-kiting-forum/31-kit...

Bladerunner - 7-9-2012 at 05:38 PM

Welcome to the addiction.

Check out the boys at www.pushkiting.com . They are our heros and pretty close to you!

Kite; 5m is a good size but be ready to accept that it is too big for winds up in to the 20's. As you learn to control the power you will be able to handle stronger winds. YES, get the kite and become it's " Master " before trying the buggy. So much easier to consintrate on one skill at a time . Going with a fixed bridle is a cheap way to get started. You won't need a harness with it but can hook in once you do get one. You need a harness with a depower kite.

If buggy is your direction, practice sitting down and getting up with the kite. Getting set into your buggy can be a challenge of it's own. Having practiced a bit before helps.

oldham82 - 9-9-2012 at 07:39 AM

with whatever kite i decide to buy, if i am intending on using a buggy would anyone suggest using a bar over the handles, if so im pressuming buy the kite with the bar and sart using it as the set

shehatesmyhobbies - 9-9-2012 at 08:29 AM

That is a total personal preference. You will here a hundred ways why the handles are better and why flying with a bar is better. If you are flying a F/B set up, I would use handles, if you choose to fly on a bar, get a depower. There are several open foil depower kites that offer great stability as well as respectable power. Some people prefer to fly with handles, mainly becuase they can "fly" their kite. You can also get a Crossover bar to fly most of the F/B four line kites on as well. Takes the stress off your arms while allowing you to still have the feel of a open cell kite. I prefer depower my self. But like I said, it's just my preference.

oldham82 - 9-9-2012 at 11:50 AM

by F/B do yoiu just mean a standard kite such as the hq beamer V,

shehatesmyhobbies - 9-9-2012 at 12:18 PM

Yes, F/B stands for fixed Bridle. As in a Beamer. Sorry about that.

oldham82 - 9-9-2012 at 01:18 PM

this should now be my final question, are the lines connected in the same way on a qyad line, as they are on a two line kite, or are they done differently?

AnnieO - 9-9-2012 at 02:10 PM

Quad line kite= Power lines connect to each of the two bridles nearest the top (leading edge) of the kite, then to their respective top leader of the handle. Brake lines connect to each of the bottom bridles of the kite, then to their respective bottom leader of the handle. On quad line kites you can tell the power lines because they should be thicker in diameter than the brake lines as they are rated for more weight than the brake lines.

oldham82 - 11-9-2012 at 11:47 AM

thanks, although the answer given wasnt what i inteded, but i believe this may have been due to me not being clear in the question, i have now chosen a kite, although would like to know if anyone has any experience with this brand/model, if so are there any reasons why i should or shouldnt buy it, this is what i am looking at in the 5m model,http://www.powerkiteshop.com/peter_lynn_hornet_kite.htm

AnnieO - 11-9-2012 at 12:13 PM

The PL Hornet was my first quad-line kite. The Hornet is very beginner friendly but the 5M size is a very large and powerful kite to learn on. It could be a little scary for you if you catch a stray gust or take it out in winds that are higher than you may be ready for.

shehatesmyhobbies - 11-9-2012 at 01:47 PM

Like Annieo Says, the Hornet is a great kite for beginners. You could be o.k. with the 5m as long as you begin in winds around 8-10 mph. Much more than that and you could be in for a handful. Don't want you getting kicked the first time out. So just remember to start slowly and work your way up. Wear the supplied kite killers and use them if you have to. Have someone show you how to set up if you can. Practice for hours on end just flying the kite and getting used to the brakes and using brake input to help you turn the kite. Practice lauching the kite and landing the kite properly. Do not start off with a dead down wind launch, learn to launch at the edge of the window and bring the kite back. Make sure you do not hold on to the handles with a death grip,(wrapping your thumbs around the handles) put your thumbs on top of the handles like they should be. fly with your fingers. Like we said before, live to fly another day and you will have a great time.

oldham82 - 12-9-2012 at 09:46 AM

thank you for you help, there is one other question, although this isnt the first time i have asked another after my previous question being my final:lol:, but in terms of harnesses, as i am thinking of using the kite with a buggy eventually, would you recomend flying the kite with the harness for some time before buying the buggy, or would you say to get the buggy and harness together with items like the helmet:puzzled:

Bladerunner - 12-9-2012 at 07:38 PM

Keep on asking! That's what this forum is all about.

You can get the harness right away. Use it just to rest up , walk up wind and such at 1st. This will extent the amount of fly time you have each time out. It is all about flying the kite and setting reflex memory at 1st. If you can do that then transitioning to the buggy will be much easier. Buggy and harness are not essential. Many people I know ride without a harness at all. Just like with learning to fly , you will want to work at being hooked in while riding a bit at a time. The larger the kite the more a harness is of value.

2 line or 4 line, the kite flies on the front lines. The back ( break ) lines come into play only for reverse launching, Backing the kite down, Slowing the kite and break turns. You can fly a 4 line kite 2 line on the front lines and not use the brakes at all.

John Holgate - 12-9-2012 at 08:06 PM

Quote:

although would like to know if anyone has any experience with this brand/model, if so are there any reasons why i should or shouldnt buy it, this is what i am looking at in the 5m


I have the 3m Hornet - which I quite like both for static flying and in the buggy. Quality wise they're top notch. I also had the 5m Hornet as a demo for a couple of weeks and didn't really like it that much - a bit too slow and 'lumbering' for my liking and once the wind gets to 15mph or so, it's gonna be a lot of effort to static fly it. Personally, I'd go a 4m. When it was time to get a 5m or bigger, I'd look at a higher aspect ratio kite - viper/reactor/core. don't discount the Flexifoil Rage or Ozone Flow either.

oldham82 - 15-9-2012 at 03:42 AM

this may be another stupid question, but can anyone say which is the correct measurment for the P.L hornet 2, as i have read on numerous site both 5m and 5 m2, obviously if it is the 5m then the span of the kite is 5m, but if it is 5 m2 what is the actual size/dimensions

oldham82 - 16-9-2012 at 10:43 AM

as asked previously, if i was to be buying a harness and potentially a buggy, what type of harness would you recommend if i was buying the harness with the kite rather than the buggy

oldham82 - 16-9-2012 at 10:45 AM

would something like this suffice http://www.powerkiteshop.com/peter_lynn_base_buggy_harness.h... or would i need something stronger?

pyro22487 - 16-9-2012 at 10:52 AM

The measurements for the 5m and 5m2 are the same. It is 5 square meters the actual span is like 2 meters maybe 2 and a half meters. To get the meters you multiply width and height. Math formula looks like this A=LxW.

Here is a link to the actual specs of the hornet 2.http://www.awindofchange.com/product/plhornetII.html

oldham82 - 16-9-2012 at 01:18 PM

i understand mathematical formulae, just when you dont have something to work with you cant answer the question, i have now found another potential purchase, being the flexifoil blurr, in the 5m, although some sites offer the kite on its own or with a line and handle set up, would anyone recommend a to go for, and handle wise do the have to be the ones listed on the manufacturers website, or can any be used, afterall they arent going ot want to lose out on any money, however small the amount theoretically is

John Holgate - 16-9-2012 at 02:46 PM

5m Blurr should be pretty good. Flexifoil stuff is excellent quality. Any handles and lines will do from Peter Lynn, Ozone or HQ. PKD do nice handles too I believe. Not sure that you'd save any money by buying the kite by itself then buying lines - I would have thought it would actually cost more that way. You best check out handle & line prices before you decide.

I have an Ozone Base harness with spreader bar and a Dakine Speed Seat - both work well for both static flying and buggying. Think I prefer the Speed Seat - a tad more comfy. The PL Base harness looks a little thin on the padding side..... as it (and the others) are designed for the job, there's no reason you'd need anything stronger.

oldham82 - 18-9-2012 at 10:36 AM

hi again, i now have two potential kites although i will only be purchasing one of them, the HQ beamer 5 or the flexifoil blurr, both of which will be 5m, are these kites of similar spec and quality as there is roughly £70 extra for the flexifoil, i can get the beamer with stronger lines also, is it worth saving the money and buying some better handles and harness etc or am i better of with the flexifoil?

John Holgate - 18-9-2012 at 02:44 PM

The Flexifoil Blurr will make the better buggy engine. It will be faster and have better upwind ability. I ended up selling my 2m & 4m Beamers and replaced them with a set of Ozone Methods - which are quite similar to the Blurr. Although I believe the Blurr is a little better again than the Method.

Bladerunner - 18-9-2012 at 04:55 PM

+1 for Blurr over Beamer.

Flexifoil is a top notch company. HQ is trying hard to fit in the top notch as well. As mentioned the Blurr is designed as an engine. It will go faster + better upwind. If you plan to get in motion this is the clear winner. The Beamer has traditionally been an intro , ultra stable , low lift kite but I understand they are changing it up and newest one aren't the intro kite anymore ???

You tend to get what you pay for in this sport. I feel a Blurr is definately worth more than a Beamer.

How did you come to the conclusion that a 5m is a good size to start with ? I can tell you story after story about people who started out on 5m kites and say it was a mistake. MANY of those folks are injured. If going about this safely is your goal you should really be looking at something around 3m to learn CONTROL . You will spend all of your time defending yourself from a 5m and not much time learning CONTROL !

( sorry, I forgot you have some experience , my mind was a blurr. Pun intended!)

abkayak - 18-9-2012 at 05:13 PM

i like that "defending yourself from a 5m"...that is so true. 3m kites make you push and grow... 5m kites are so limited till you really know what your doing

AnnieO - 18-9-2012 at 06:21 PM

I have a 5M Flexifoil Blurr. From my signature you will see that I also have several other Flexifoil kites. The Blurr is much more of a high performance kite than the Beamer. Am I a fan of and slightly biased toward Flexifoil, yes. The Flexifoil quality and performance speaks for itself. Do I also like Peter Lynn? Yes, the value and performance speaks for itself. Flexifoil kites can be on the expensive side so if you can scrounge up some good lines and handles for a song then go for the Blurr. I don't think the Beamers have the AoA feature that lets you adjust the bridle for high, low, or normal wind settings. This feature in and of itself should be one it's main selling points for you as it will make for a much more versatile and higher performing kite. Any of the major brand name handles and linesets will work but as John Holgate already said, I'd double check that you come out paying less still having to find decent handles and lines. Be informed from my personal experience, the Blurr pulls like a truck, but will surprise you with some liftiness too.

oldham82 - 19-9-2012 at 09:39 AM

AnnieO, since you say you also like P.L., would you recomend the blurr over the P.L. hornet 2, once again in the 5m form

oldham82 - 19-9-2012 at 01:05 PM

am i correct in thinking that the aspect ratio is like the power to weight ratio with cars, the higher the aspect ratio, the more power/pull the kite will produce

DemBones - 19-9-2012 at 08:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldham82
am i correct in thinking that the aspect ratio is like the power to weight ratio with cars, the higher the aspect ratio, the more power/pull the kite will produce


Not exactly.

A higher A/R (aspect ratio) allows air to move over the kite faster (this is due to the fact that turbulence is greatest at the tips, and a higher A/R kite has more kite for the size of the tips). This allows the kite to move faster, which means the kite can develop more power through apparent wind (wind speed from the perspective of the kite).

The downside is that in a gust a high A/R kite will move very quickly, and can develop a lot of power, then in the lull afterwards will overrun the wind and luff. High A/R kites are therefore difficult to fly in gusty wind and are best in smooth coastal winds. A lower A/R kite is better in gusty conditions and is easier to learn to fly.

There is however another factor which determines both how much a kite pulls, and its speed, which is the angle of attack (AOA). AOA is the angle of the kite relative to the direction that it moves through the air. Note that depower kites allow the pilot to vary the AOA to control power. Fixed bridle kites usually do not, but some can be adjusted on the ground.

A high AOA will result in a kite that pulls a lot, to the point that it is so high the kite stalls. High AOA kites are more "lifty" (they will lift you off the ground if the kite is overpowered while directly over your head), these types of kite are good for landboarding or static jumping.

A lower angle of attack will result in a kite that does not pull as much when it is not moving, but will move much faster, and hence can generate substantial power by working the kite (moving it around the wind window). A low AOA kite will not be as lifty, but is good for use in a buggy.

My advice is to get a 2.5 or 3m2 kite with a low A/R (any beginner kite from a reputable manufacturer, e.g. Flow, Beamer, Hornet, Rage). A kite like this will still have plenty of pull, but will allow you to learn kite control. You will learn how to get the kite to pull when YOU want it to, not when the kite does. This kite will then get you going on a landboard or in a buggy, then you can get a larger kite when you need it.

A kite larger than 3m will not be any more use until you are moving, and then the 3m will probably still see plenty of use + you can use it to teach others without scaring them away.

Larger kites do not necessarily fly in less wind, they just develop usable power in less wind, however you won't need this power until you want to move. A smaller kite will still fly in light winds, and will be safer in stronger winds. Hence for static flying a small kite has a much larger windrange, so is more suitable for a first power kite.

jimbocz - 20-9-2012 at 05:19 AM

I'll throw another kite into the mix:

A 3.3 meter Buster Soulfly for £124 new from here:

http://www.powerkiteshop.com/kites/pkdbuster.htm

That's a screaming deal for a low aspect ratio beginner kite with kite killers and everything else included. Quality wise, it will be about the same as the Hornet or Beamer, but maybe not as nice as a Flexifoil.

My personal opinion is that if you have never flown a kite before, by a cheap, 3 meter beginner kite like a used hornet or Beamer, or maybe that Soulfly. I wouldn't spen much more than £130 or so. Then you'll get an idea of wether the sport is right for you or not. You don't need a harness any time soon. Just learn to fly that kite for a while. You'll find that challenging enough for months of fun.

Don't buy a 5 meter kite as you will only be able to fly it safely in very low winds, which will limit the number of days you can fly. You'll be able to fly the most days with a 3 meter kite. Although the Blur is without a doubt the best quality kite out of all the ones you are considering, and will serve you better if you decide to buggy, it is also the most expensive. All the things about it that make it worth it are things that won't matter much to you yet. You may never get a buggy, or decide to take up landboarding instead. If that's the case, the Blur won't be best for you and some of that money will be wasted. You'll have plenty of time to buy more kites later, and then you'll know enough about what you want that you'll want to go for more expensive kites later.

To use a car analogy, if someone who has never driven before asks you if they should buy a Ford Focus or a Mercedes. The Focus will do fine for quite a while, and there's no reasont o spend the extra cash right away. There's always a chance to buy a Mercedes later on, or perhaps a 4 X 4 or a pickup truck.

AnnieO - 20-9-2012 at 12:31 PM

There is no comparison between the Burr and Hornet II. The Blurr is much more of a higher performance kite. The Blurr is not as newbie friendly as the Hornett II and be quite lifty- especially in gusty conditions. I love my Blurr but would not want it as my first kite to learn to buggy with. I think the Flexfoil Rage would be a better choice for you for now as far as Flexifoils go. For perspective I would say the Rage sits in the middle between the Beamers/Hornets and the Vipers. The Burr is maybe only slightly better performing than the Vipers but maybe not depending on your conditions.
Of the Peter Lynn kites I would say look for a used or remaining stock Viper/S or used Reactor/RII. If it was me I would skip the Beamers and Hornets because there are kites available that offer a bunch more performance that are still pretty newbie friendly.

DemBones - 20-9-2012 at 10:10 PM

A Reactor II is not suitable for a beginner.

oldham82 - 21-9-2012 at 10:30 AM

another question to narrow options down, handles or bar, as in control methods?

John Holgate - 21-9-2012 at 03:43 PM

There are a few different options with bars - some better than others depending on the kite. If you match the wrong bar to the kite you'll end up disappointed with a poorly performing kite. For a start, stick with handles. Later you can add a strop/pulley & harness and fly hooked in when you're confident. Bars can wait.....

DemBones - 22-9-2012 at 01:27 AM

For a fixed bridle kite, learn kite control using handles before considering using a bar.

Re-examine your wind and meters...

skimtwashington - 22-9-2012 at 05:34 AM

Research and get real average winds for place(s) you go at the times of year you go. It will help make better determination and recommendations. If it's all over the place... think 'middle' for the moment.

Many sites have such wind history for an area.


If you want to start w/one you can ride with.... sure. But there will be limits. Better to start with a middle wind , middle(or low to middle) aspect kite if you have no better wind speed average info and with limited experience. You won't be able to move at all in some cases or ride safely on other days in other cases. But you may be able to ride a goodly amount of days with a middle-range kite. Few start w/ a full quiver ( because of commitment or cash is not there yet)!)... otherwise this first choice wouldn't be an issue.

If you usually have low winds the 5m may be appropriate.May..
A 3-4 m would be a better, safer size to start with.


Remember not all same meter sized kites have same power.
Low aspect, middle aspect , and high aspect can mean significantly different power in same surface area size(meters). With that knowledge you may even want to size down...or up.

"defending against a 5m"...right on!

You WILL eventually need a quiver. You can't have one do it all anyway.
You will be able to pick the right size for that day and hour, switch, switch again- and not get in trouble.

Good luck.:roll: