Suds after thuds - 24-1-2013 at 03:09 PM
So it looks like i might be able to get out on a lake this weekend, and seeing as they only have 5cm of powder on them, I was thinking of getting a
couple ice screws, and something bright and flappy, so I find them again.
Then again if there's snow I could just use that to anchor down.
But what I really want to know is:
do you screw?
--Pete
snowspider - 24-1-2013 at 03:25 PM
Even if the snow is deep I'll hump my butt digging at that hole to set my screw. Its handy for parking the kite when you need to take a leak or get
something to eat , not necessarily in that order.
Bladerunner - 24-1-2013 at 03:56 PM
I screw times 2
One I leave at base and one a keep on my harness.
Suds after thuds - 24-1-2013 at 04:00 PM
I'm giving in to gear lust again:D
Bladerunner - 24-1-2013 at 04:03 PM
Check used sport gear shops. Ice screws new are not cheap. Climbers don't like to buy used ones so they can be pretty cheap.
Mainekite - 24-1-2013 at 06:14 PM
For a base I just use a big I think its 16” carriage bolt. I bring a cordless drill with an electricians bit, set the bolt put a strap and a carabiner
on it. Works in frozen ground or ice but sometimes you need a hammer to get it out.
shaggs2riches - 24-1-2013 at 07:31 PM
I just bought my own a couple weeks ago. Haven't tried it yet. Not sure if this is correct or not, but I remember reading not to anchor the kite to
the handle of the screw. There was a thread when I first started that described how to use them. They get their strength from the threads. Put the
screw in at an angle with the handle pointing towards the kite. The handle isn't designed for the pull of a kite dancing in the wind. Set the screw,
larks head knot a rope to the shank if the screw. Attach a carabiner to the end of the rope with some sort of fancy knot (anyone know which knot is
best?). Now it's ready to anchor the kite down. I think it was also recommended to set a second screw to attach safety and act as backup in case the
first one fails. If Im wrong someone please correct me. 
canuck - 24-1-2013 at 11:18 PM
I always set an ice screw with a line on it to hold the kite before launching and after landing. Never thought of shaggs point about fastening the
rope to the shank instead of the handle - will do that in future.
In the Spring the ice around the screw will melt so be careful that it is still holding before you let your handles or bar go.
The snow will drift and bury the screw so I use a collapsable traffic cone to mark the location. I tried using surveyors's plastic flagging tape but
it just broke off.
macboy - 24-1-2013 at 11:26 PM
I screw. Times two too. CanucS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s cone marking is definitely a great idea - they drift over immediately.
Of course sometimes we get real lucky and we can just tie a rope to the truck.
bourgeois.jason - 25-1-2013 at 01:34 AM
shaggs2riches,
A good knot for the carabiner is the bowline. It is easy to untie no matter how hard you pull on it, and it doesn't need tension to stay tied. It
will not come loose from a variable tension that will come from a kite pulling on it.
A better option, though, would be a larks head knot on the carabiner. That way the knot would be tight around the small end of the carabiner and
would not slide off while you are trying to hook the kite to it. I don't think that would happen with the bowline, but there is a small possibility
that it could. You would need a carabiner that does not have an eye on the back end. If it has an eye on the back end, the bowline is the best
option.
-Jason
Suds after thuds - 25-1-2013 at 01:35 AM
85º degrees tilt in the fall/pull direction is recommended, but only if it won't melt out.
Is what an ice climbing FAQ told me.
2 black diamond Turbo Ice Screws in 16cm ≈70 euro
Suds after thuds - 25-1-2013 at 01:41 AM
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/7107237?color=ffffff" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen
allowFullScreen></iframe>
¿This worked on preview?
B-Roc - 25-1-2013 at 04:34 AM
I love my ice screw. I've fastened a 3' rope with a carbiner on it so I can clip the kite / safety to the screw while standing and then drop the kite
without having to bend down and secure it to the screw. This also allows me to teather my sled to the screw so my shoes / lunch / etc. don't blow
away while I'm out riding.
Feyd - 25-1-2013 at 05:43 AM
Always have at least two screws. One at your launch area and one on you for self rescue.
As B-Roc described you want a tether so you can attach the kite easily.
We always put a small flag on our launch screws. It alerts other user groups like ice fishermen and snowmobiles that there is a screw there and that
it's a launch land area. It also allows us to find the screw when snow is drifting and burying the anchor in addition to being an indicator of what
the wind is doing at your anchor.
I generally place the screw in straight w/o an angle. The winds we have here are 99% variable in direction and placing the screw at an angle to
provide maximum load support in one wind direction can prove to be a detriment if the winds shift 180deg. Straight provides a happy medium and a
solid anchor in all wind directions.
There's a lot of leeway in kite use vs. climbing use. A kite can generate a hell of a load and I've seen people make mistakes and hook thier chicken
loop to the anchor and have the kite launch and tear the anchor out. Usually destroys the screw and damages the kite. But most kite activity is less
demanding that taking a 30' whipper on an climb. :wee:
skimtwashington - 25-1-2013 at 05:56 AM
85 degree forward angle(towards kite) is a surprise. It does say if there's any possible chance of melt a neutral or reverse angle would be better.
That might translate to a warmer sunny day above say, 30 degrees(?) or more.
bowline is good knot. easy to remove!
http://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/bowline/. 
Does cone ever blow over in the stronger winds(30+mph)?
Suds after thuds - 25-1-2013 at 08:38 AM
In that video that didn't want to embed,
it is a slight 15° tilt up into the ice wall\
However, Chris has a point they had a graph showing the difference between a plus angle\ up into the wall
and a negative angle/ pointed down into the wall, which was substantially weaker although it might seem intuitively stronger.
The difference is that it is the teeth that hold the screw in the ice and not the tube so much.
The point is if you have a wind shift your plus angle could flip and become a negative one, turning an advantage into a liability.
I went with a little collapsing camping stool to cover/mark my base
add another 500g to gear sack
area429 - 25-1-2013 at 03:30 PM
Great advice Feyd,
I have always wondered about the best angle for a screw on the lake as climbers get all antsy about the angle. Kiters on the ice may have a direction
change so vertical makes it easy to remember.
But if the wind is really nukeing and not changing direction, would you still place the screw vertical or would you point it with the wind more?
Area
Suds after thuds - 25-1-2013 at 04:12 PM
you could always equalize the load by setting a second screw or at least back it up
Futahaguro - 28-1-2013 at 02:23 PM
+1 for an ice screw. I went out yesterday on a local lake, all of the lakes around here had no snow and were perfect for skates until last night, and
the screw was AWESOME. I bought the Black Ice 13CM with a Black Ice screwgate carabiner from Amazon. As some of the posters have commented in
regards to a clear, frozen lake, the kite slides EVERYWHERE. Here was what I had to do without the screw, no other kiter, and no anchor point. I
would skate out to the site, take off my backpack and unwind the lines. I would then skate back to the backpack, unpack the kite, put my backpack
back on and then skate like hell to the bar. Obviously this only works in low winds or if you don't mind chasing a foil kite sliding on the ice
Now, with a screw I would do the same thing up to the part where I take the kite out. When I am done unwinding the lines I would then pull out the
screw and screw it in the ice, straight up and down. Those screws are CRAZY easy to put in! I thought I would really have to crank but it is no
harder than spinning the crank on a stove top popcorn popper! Anyway, I would then hook the brake strap into the 'biner and then the 'biner into the
outside loop of the ice screw crank (pointing toward the kite). Now I can skate to the pack, pull out the kite, put it leading edge up and partially
inflated, check all of the lines, and then skate back! Once I am ready I hook in (on the kite side of the screw so the brake are still on, take out
the brake strap and hold it so the brakes are still on, pull out the screw (still VERY easy) and chuck it in my bag. Now I have left nothing behind
to lose or injure someone and I can now launch and start kiting!
The added plus is when you are out on the lake you can park the kite if you have issues, if the wind picks up and you need to call it quits, or if you
accidentally pull the top hat without realizing it and can't figure out what the h3ll is wrong with your kite
and you need to fix it. Ever try putting your top hat back together while sitting on glare ice? Yah, doesn't work
well even when pulling on the brakes.
I like the comment on used screws though, I might have to try that. I actually have a video from yesterday showing the screw that I will post at some
point.
Feyd - 28-1-2013 at 06:02 PM
For sure on ice having a screw can make what could potentially be a crisis into nothing more than a minor hiccup. Area, I always put the screw in
straight. We just never get steady direction in these parts. 
Cheddarhead - 28-1-2013 at 07:58 PM
Don't forget to insert your screw all the way. Nobody likes bent screws
crabnebula - 29-1-2013 at 07:31 PM
The stronger choice:
A or V thread
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abalakov_thread
Why?
Be careful with ice screws as many hangers ( the part you clip into) are not designed to take a load that flexes beyond much more than 5-10 degrees
from the parallel ice the screw is placed in.... In other words cranking the ice screw tight and flush to the ice creates a weaker ice screw.
In tests that I've done with low loads, less force than a kite flying in gusty winds would create, I've had a few hangers break. Most bend
significantly, but then become dangerously weak, then break. It is not uncommon for a kite to be in "shut down mode" from the QR being engaged, or
even the break being directly clipped into the screw, and have the kite still, in strong winds generate serious loads with dangerous angles on the ice
screw.
The Grivel 360 has what's called a "clown" like hanger used in caving, it has a great set of strength properties from its Omni directional load
ability.
Granted this link below speaks of forces equal to climbers weighing in at a typical 175 lbs person falling with more than enough force to = ~ 10kn (
2,500 lbs of moving force ) it is to be noted that kite lines alone are set to 360 dan (decanewton) or simply 810 lbs of force in motion... It is near
half of most maximum loads in any climbing fall, this is something to pay attention to.
As kite lines do not absorb forces as climbing ropes, ( often with 22%~33% elongation rates). Although the movement of a kiter can reduce loads on a
kite, a kite connected to a screw can rapidly increase perceived loads on the ice screw.
http://www.beverlymountainguides.com/file_download/2/Dynamic...
Another consideration is whether you tie off ice screws or angle them... Or have them stick out of the ice. This all can affect not only the ground
safety for you, your kite, and others around you but can create dubious anchor points to put trust in.
Again the "thread" is a soft version of something far stronger, multi directional, as well as cheaper. It also leaves you with one screw to have in
your pack.... While your launch spot it ready and "threaded" for loads.
In the end a normal "cheap" ice screw will do the job, but if your in an emergency on a lake with no snow, and the winds double and you can't get
upwind, can't edge, and looking at a dangerous scenerio unfolding,.... Anything will work... But this is where understand "anything", is a desperate
standard to adhere to when there are strong more applicable options out there.
Suds after thuds - 3-2-2013 at 02:40 PM
can you guess which day I bought my screws on based on this graph?
It's snowing again tonight, so I hope that will mean 6 more weeks of winter. I did manage to get some turns on a field with about 5cm of snow, but I
had to ride the Bigfoots. Still waiting to Telekite in some deep pow
Crabnebula, do you use a screw or do you pack a drill to set up the Abalakov?
crabnebula - 3-2-2013 at 06:40 PM
As I teach climbing as well as kiting for a living I use the ice screw to create the tunnel for the v thread.....
You can use a drill.... But why tote a large powered or hand cranking device when you can use what you have..
It's pretty easy with some practice