Power Kite Forum - high wind buggy kite

high wind buggy kite

ssayre - 20-1-2014 at 05:51 PM

Just curious what kite would be best in the upper teens, low 20's MPH for use with the kite buggy. Would my snapshot 2.5 work? I haven't had the right conditions to test it in high wind in the buggy yet. Also, the lines on the snapshot are 100'. Would it be better to shorten them to 15 or 20 meter? I was planning on getting something medium ar in the 3 meter size. My guess is that would be ideal but not sure.

3shot - 20-1-2014 at 06:07 PM

You wanna see what a 1.5 - 2m kite can do in 20 mph winds in the buggy? Check out WELDNGOD's vids in the VABB forum. I can also vouch for a 1.8 and 2m in that wind speed the last time we flew. It was 20+mph and that was plenty of FB wing!!!! :D . I prefer 25m on my buggy engines. That is subject to debate though.

In my humble opinion ONLY, a medium ar 3m in 20+ winds in going to be a BIG handful without some good buggy experience.
A higher aspect 2.5 or a lower aspect 3m would be the sweetspot.
Of course you do have a twister and a blade, so you're already a Wildman! LOL jk.

riffclown - 20-1-2014 at 06:11 PM

You can pull a buggy with the snapshot but you will have to work it a bit. It's not designed for it.

WELDNGOD - 20-1-2014 at 06:15 PM

http://vimeo.com/80200976 :D

MeatÐriver - 20-1-2014 at 06:18 PM

I got my start in the buggy with the snapshot 2.5....it will work, but will also work you. It's a good entry static kite, though it is definitely not a legitimate buggy engine. Get ahold of Bigkid and get your hands on a buster/buster pro, it's not a cheap kite...just an inexpensive one!

3shot - 20-1-2014 at 06:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

http://vimeo.com/80200976 :D

Now that is Heaven bro!!!

soliver - 20-1-2014 at 06:23 PM

I have trouble keeping my 2.6m under control in the high teens... I'd say grab up a Buster soulfly, or even one of Big Mike's 2m Hornet II's that he has on sale (if he still has any). Soulfly might be a better buggy kite, but either will work in that kind of wind. Snapshop is a 2 line kite right? If so, I imagine it'll be difficult in the bug.

http://www.bigmikeskites.com/PeterLynn/Hornet/Hornet.htm

ssayre - 20-1-2014 at 06:25 PM

cool video. The only difference is that looked like a pretty smooth hard surface. I will be riding on grass so there so it takes a little be more to get moving. I'm very drawn to smeagul's 2 meter blade II he has for sale. I have a feeling that would pull just as much as a low ar 3 meter. I will give the snapshot a try on the next doable high wind day. The reason I thought about shortening the lines is I thought it might make the kite quicker in confined spaces. I might be wrong though.

3shot - 20-1-2014 at 06:28 PM

Some more of WG's high wind goodness (from the VABB forum) :thumbup:

Little kites RULE!!!
http://vimeo.com/53914152

:cool:

@ssayre, true about the smooth hard sand, but a larger kite on heavy grass will want to yank you out of the buggy before you even get rolling a lot of times. With momentum its not so bad. Taking off and turning can be a little hairy.

riffclown - 20-1-2014 at 06:29 PM

The 2.5 is bridled for four lines. It's sold as 4 line ready. Not sure it's truly a 2.5 M though. Seems to be measure a lot like the Symphonies.

ssayre - 20-1-2014 at 06:30 PM

Quote:

Of course you do have a twister and a blade, so you're already a Wildman! LOL jk.

As far as being a crazy guy, I had the blade flying static a couple of days ago in 15 mph gusty wind. The ground was frozen and had a couple inches of snow. It's a pretty frightening kite in that range. I flew across the fields with nothing but boots on my feet. I couldn't make it back to my ground stake so I used a frisbee golf post that was near where I ended up. I was careful not to send it to zenith. I'm not that crazy (yet). That would not have ended well. That kite is full of surprises, I'm still getting to know it.

Edit: What I meant by nothing but boots was I wasn't on skis or board. I was wearing clothes :D

ssayre - 20-1-2014 at 06:31 PM

I have already converted the snapshot to 4 line.

BeamerBob - 20-1-2014 at 06:49 PM

For fixed bridle, I'd not hesitate with the 3m Toxic. The Beamer would be easy predictable riding in 20. That was the sweet spot for my 3.5m Reactor II when I first moved to the desert. For getting real speed, the 2.7 Vapor would just be coming online. The 3.4 HQ Prodigy would be becoming a handful in 20 mph winds. 3.2 Vapor might be just right for aggressive riding.

For Depower, my 12m Phantom II is just coming into some power. I'd be having a good time with the 7m Montana. On a more sluggish surface, the 9m Montana would be lots of power but still manageable on a surface that keeps the speeds down. On the lakebed I couldn't use the 9 because the apparent wind would build too much.

For starting out in the buggy, you could play it safe with a 2m low to medium AR kite or bump up the power with a 3, but just use a lower AR till you feel comfortable in those winds. Then build up to a more aggressive kite in the 3m range.

ssayre - 20-1-2014 at 06:55 PM

@beamerbob: good advice. Just out of curiosity do you think a 2 meter blade II would produce as much power as a low ar 3 meter?

MeatÐriver - 20-1-2014 at 06:55 PM

Not that I'm trying to convert anyone to depower or anything....that's a lie, I totally am.:evil: The 5m apex I picked up from southpadreburt pulled me away from FB a bit. Wind range from 15-30+, sweet spot 20-25, no scares with this thing. After building a FB quiver last year, I have been selling some off to fund the depows. Really excited to get into the performance depowers. Doesn.t hurt to explore your options.:D

ssayre - 20-1-2014 at 06:59 PM

@meatdriver. I agree. I have been thinking about not buying anymore fb until I get a depower. Although, I would still like to eventually get a good 3 and 5 meter fb

This porridge is too hot!" she exclaimed. "This porridge is to cold"....... "this porridge is just right!"

skimtwashington - 20-1-2014 at 10:37 PM

They're called 'Snapshots' because the line 'snaps' and your fun is 'shot'!:wow: :smilegrin:

I picked what I needed by actually trying friends kites. Better to try(similar-if not exact) before you buy.

BeamerBob - 21-1-2014 at 09:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

@beamerbob: good advice. Just out of curiosity do you think a 2 meter blade II would produce as much power as a low ar 3 meter?

That would not be outside of expectations. My frame of reference was when I bought a 4.2m PKD Combat to fill in my quiver below my 5.5m PL Reactor II. Both kites had the same power. As you know, the RII is a medium aspect kite with good performance. The high AR race kite is at the top end of performance per square meter though.

ssayre - 12-3-2014 at 11:18 PM

Quote:

Riffclown: The 2.5 is bridled for four lines. It's sold as 4 line ready. Not sure it's truly a 2.5 M though. Seems to be measure a lot like the Symphonies.

Hey Riff, I think your right. Here is a side by side comparison between the 3m beamer and the 2.5m snapshot. I didn't measure or do any math but I'm pretty sure there is more than .5m difference between the 2.

kitemaker4 - 13-3-2014 at 07:46 AM

If you are flying in gusty inland winds have you thought about nasa wings.

Susan (npw goddess)

DAKITEZ - 13-3-2014 at 10:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

That was the sweet spot for my 3.5m Reactor II when I first moved to the desert.

That was the same kite I was going to say for mid to low 20's ... especially on grass. Grass creates alot of drag so you need more sail.

The snapshots do not produce much of any power and their upwind capacity is non existent. They are more of a stunt fun foil than an actual traction kite. They are a great kite just not made for pulling.

If you get an older blade and expect to use it in a buggy you better buy a seatbelt for your buggy as well.

ssayre - 13-3-2014 at 10:59 AM

Quote:

I already purchased a high wind kite. I picked up a used 3m beamer. I don't get much high winds so I didn't go with anything high performance. I just wanted to still be able to still buggy on high wind days. As for an older blade, I use my 6.6m bIII as my low wind kite in the buggy. I've only used it a couple times on grass with winds around 12 and it seems to work well. I use my 4m twister for winds up in the teens which seems to do ok. Although, I have yet to use a kite designed as a buggy kite so my opinion my change once I do.

As far as the snapshot, did you see my pictures of it and the beamer? It sure doesn't look like there is only a .5m difference between the 2. I think the snapshot must be smaller than 2.5m.

3shot - 13-3-2014 at 12:12 PM

edit: Small trainers like the Symphony are measured by wingspan. True power kites are measured by the square meter.

ssayre - 13-3-2014 at 12:17 PM

3shot, prism specs say it is square meter

http://prismkites.com/products-sf-snapshot25.php

riffclown - 13-3-2014 at 12:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Quote:

Riffclown: The 2.5 is bridled for four lines. It's sold as 4 line ready. Not sure it's truly a 2.5 M though. Seems to be measure a lot like the Symphonies.

I had the Snapshot 2.5 for a while and used it in a trade for the Crossfire 4M when my friend that bought the 4M realized the same thing about the measurements and felt he had way too much kite on his hands. The span of the Snapshot 2.5 is the same as the Symphony 2.2. It is a bigger (read taller and squarer) kite than the Symphony but the numbers seem to skew when compared to the Crossfire 2M..

I did the math for several of the Sport kites when I still had the Snapshot and compared them to my Crossfire 2M. I was rounding the corners up and compensating slightly on the measurements. All numbers are approximate

Yields some interesting numbers

Kite--------------Height--Width-- Area
Snapshot 2.5---113----220-----2.486
Symphony 1.8--72-----180------1.296
Symphony 2.2--79-----220------1.738
Crossfire 2.0----86-----297------2.5542

Using the same system the Crossfire is a 2.5 as well...It's a valid measurement but not the standard measurement that our power kites adhere to. Fortunately, after you get past the sport kite arena, the manufacturers seem pretty consistent. HMMMMMMM. the downside is folks that don't know this, will accidentally take a big leap between kite sizes when the move up from the sport kites and end up with a kite they aren't quite ready for.. It'd be nice if someone in the business would clarify the ambiguity or apply the same standard to both ranges of foils.

ssayre - 13-3-2014 at 01:14 PM

I agree Riff, I remember when I was thinking about getting the 4 meter I thought to myself that it wouldn't be a huge jump because it wasn't going to be even twice as big as the snapshot. Then it showed up and looked visually 3 or 4 times bigger and felt like it had at least 4 times the power. That came as a pleasant surprise to me but to some it may have been a bit more than they bargained for. Of course some people may have other kiters in the area that would help them out and they would be aware ahead of time. In my case I've had to figure it out on my own.

3shot - 13-3-2014 at 01:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Of course some people may have other kiters in the area that would help them out and they would be aware ahead of time. In my case I've had to figure it out on my own.

A lot of people find that out the hard way. My first kite was the Symphony 1.8m. My very next kite was a 3m Flow. Major surprise!!! 4 times the size of the Symphony LOL

My Symphony is 180cm. / 1.8 meter tip to tip.

Demoknight - 13-3-2014 at 02:05 PM

I went from a Prism Stylus P.2 to a Tensor 5.0m... It scared the crap out of me the first time flying. I put it up in 10 mph and it was like being towed behind a ski boat compared to kites I had flown before. Now I toss it around like a toy after flying the Toxic and the Charger so much.

BeamerBob - 13-3-2014 at 02:18 PM

I'd place that responsibility on the sport kite guys. The square meter measurement is much more informative and somewhat accounts for length and height. If you add AR into purchase considerations it's even more skewed to surprise the new pilot.

riffclown - 13-3-2014 at 02:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

I'd place that responsibility on the sport kite guys. The square meter measurement is much more informative and somewhat accounts for length and height. If you add AR into purchase considerations it's even more skewed to surprise the new pilot.

I agree BUT the Sport Kite guys also make Power kites. Why two standards?

ssayre - 14-3-2014 at 06:26 AM

Quote:

If you are flying in gusty inland winds have you thought about nasa wings.

Susan (npw goddess)

No I hadn't, I would like to try one out.

ripsessionkites - 14-3-2014 at 12:54 PM

high wind kites should also be high AR as well. if youre going at speed the last thing you want is more drag or the kite not keeping up with your speed.

Demoknight - 14-3-2014 at 02:12 PM

I don't think that high wind kites always need to be high aspect kites. A slightly lower AR kite in high winds would be more manageable and less twitchy to give a similar feel to a slightly larger kite in lighter winds. Just because a kite is lower aspect, I don't think overtaking the kite would be a serious problem. It depends on the level of the rider. Not everyone is comfortable at 45mph+ in 20mph winds. They might want to use a smaller low AR kite for high winds to stay safe and keep their ground speed in check.

John Holgate - 14-3-2014 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

high wind kites should also be high AR as well. if youre going at speed the last thing you want is more drag or the kite not keeping up with your speed.

If you're an expert flyer and racer, ok... for us guys that don't have your skill, the more forgiving the kite in high winds the better. Personally, my 1.5m Nasa Star 2 is now my goto 30 knot + kite. It's a lot calmer than my small low AR foils in high wind and gives me the confidence to fly in really crappy conditions. Sure, it is not fast, but if I can't feel safe and in control in 30 knots and up then I figure the risk isn't worth the reward.

BeamerBob - 14-3-2014 at 03:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ripsessionkites

high wind kites should also be high AR as well. if youre going at speed the last thing you want is more drag or the kite not keeping up with your speed.

Rip, you sold me a Reactor II 2.2m kite that you had for flaky high winds. You even explained to me why you had it. It was custom colored to match your vapors.

ripsessionkites - 14-3-2014 at 04:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Quote: Originally posted by ripsessionkites

high wind kites should also be high AR as well. if youre going at speed the last thing you want is more drag or the kite not keeping up with your speed.

Rip, you sold me a Reactor II 2.2m kite that you had for flaky high winds. You even explained to me why you had it. It was custom colored to match your vapors.

that's when you were a pansy pink skirt (when you moved to LAS).

I sold everything smaller then a 2.7m

my smallest kite now is the Quantum 3m

BeamerBob - 14-3-2014 at 04:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ripsessionkites

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Quote: Originally posted by ripsessionkites

high wind kites should also be high AR as well. if youre going at speed the last thing you want is more drag or the kite not keeping up with your speed.

Rip, you sold me a Reactor II 2.2m kite that you had for flaky high winds. You even explained to me why you had it. It was custom colored to match your vapors.

that's when you were a pansy pink skirt (when you moved to LAS).

I sold everything smaller then a 2.7m

my smallest kite now is the Quantum 3m

Well, you gotta ask who's kite was it first? :lol:

And indeed I was a scared pansy pink skirt when I moved here. My smallest kite I have now is my 2.7 Vapor. What's the smallest size quantum Ozone makes? :cool:

Please make it to IBB so we can have some laughs! :thumbup:

soliver - 14-3-2014 at 06:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ripsessionkites

high wind kites should also be high AR as well. if youre going at speed the last thing you want is more drag or the kite not keeping up with your speed.

For me, speed is not of concern, so I find the opposite to be true. Here in North Ga the higher the wind speed is, the more unstable it is. As the wind speed increases it gets more gusty, shifty and generally cruddy (I call it "janky"). Given that higher AR kites are less stable, I tend to do better with lower AR kites in high wind.

Case in point, I had a out a 3m HQ Toxic (4.5 AR) and a 2.6m PL Viper S (3.85 AR) in a 14-17 ish mph eastern wind flying static recently. I couldn't get any marked performance out of the Toxic because it kept shimmying in the unstable wind and luffing in the shifts. However the Viper was cranking like a Mac truck, it was munching the gusts and handling the shifts without problem... I subsequently sold the Toxic to 3shot. I know its a great kite, it just wasn't performing in my conditions.

All that being said, I'm not a fan of LOW AR kites,... I like Mid/high AR kites... I like to have kites that are both stable and have good upwind ability. I have both the 2.6m Viper and a 4m PL Core (3.75 AR ... I think). The Core is my favorite and both perform REALLY well in my Janky wind and move upwind really well too.