Power Kite Forum - For the 100th time I'm sure..

For the 100th time I'm sure..

3shot - 8-4-2014 at 03:25 PM

As my curiosity grows each day, what would be the deciding factor in purchasing my first depower?
Arc or open cell/bridled?

I love what both have to offer while researching the two. Just curious from my peeps here of the pros and cons of each. Mainly interested in just lazy buggy cruises down the beach. It's been hard watching the last few deals slip by on some nice arcs in the classifieds. Why is it mostly arcs that show up for sale here? I foresee a lot more PKF events in my future where this could apply. I am madly addicted to my FBs, but the curiosity is always there for depower.

Thoughts?
Thanks

ssayre - 8-4-2014 at 03:41 PM

If I were you and were going to jibe, I would see if anyone would let you try out both an arc and an open cell. That would probably be helpful for trying to figure out which way to go. Or you could always do what I do and just blindly buy kites and try them out. I would love to try an access or an apex in the buggy.

Edit: Not totally blind, I get a lot of help from everyone on here, I just meant no first hand experience.

3shot - 8-4-2014 at 04:01 PM

LOL on blindly buying kites. Yes. Hands on would be the ultimate deciding factor as it truly is a personal preference. I was curious on the obvious pros and cons.

riffclown - 8-4-2014 at 04:19 PM

KHK has loaner kites you could try.. Get in touch with Adam at the Rodanthe store,

Probably wouldn't hurt to ask chris if you could borrow an Apex for a few hours.. I'd gladly ride down with you since I'm starting to think about a Depower also.

BeamerBob - 8-4-2014 at 04:29 PM

I love both the phantom IIs and Montana's. You should be able to try both at Jibe.

acampbell - 8-4-2014 at 04:37 PM

Yes, I have the Phannies and Chris at HQ should have the Montanas. I have the harnesses too. We are gong to drag your sorry ass down the beach ;-)

3shot - 8-4-2014 at 04:46 PM

May have to do that one day riff!

I picked up a Divine harness the other day Angus. My wife just prefers me to be called a$$. "Sorry a$$" would be a promotion

So, everyone off the top of your head..... pros/cons of arc vs bridled depower?

shehatesmyhobbies - 8-4-2014 at 05:40 PM

JIBE is probably one of the best areas on the east coast for a cruising kite! Smooth on shore winds most of the time, you just can't beat it. I flew nothing but my Phantom 18m down there. Talk about a relaxing ride. I fly nothing but Phantoms at the moment and really enjoy the ride. That being said, sometimes I really miss flying FB kites, and will be soon adding some back in my kite trailer.

Watch the for sale section, you just never know what might pop up!

3shot - 8-4-2014 at 05:48 PM

I hear ya Rich! That's the problem I have. So many killer deals I watched float on by because I don't know jack about em'. I actually lost sleep over two of them here recently. Almost blindly (as ssayre called it) bought one, but held off. Kites almost to fall in your lap around here when the moon, sun, and earth all line up it seems anyway.

BeamerBob - 8-4-2014 at 05:50 PM

The Montanas turn faster and are easier to land and launch. They also have a a safety system that is easier to recover from. I got overpowered just a few days ago at IBB with the 10m Montana and had to pull the tophat because I was sliding sideways through my buffer before camp. The power was killed instantly and as soon as I got stopped, I was able to pull the brake handle and reset the safety, then able to launch when ready. If you pull a safety in anger with an arc, you have a mess on your hands and a couple times to walk the lines before relaunch. With the arc, that is really tough if it's windy and you are a mile from camp with out a sandbag. That wouldn't be an issue at a beach but it's a big one at a dry lakebed.

3shot - 8-4-2014 at 05:53 PM

Thank you Bob :cool:

. That is the kind of info I'm after. The tid-bits you don't really read much about. :thumbup:

And I do now have a big weak spot for some HQ LOL. I friggin' love their Toxic line!!

awindofchange - 8-4-2014 at 05:56 PM

I love the Peter Lynn's but if I was strictly using them on land, I would go open cell depower. The advantages is faster launching and packing away, easier self launching and landing and as Beamer has said, easier recovery from deploying the safety.
They are also a little better on the lower wind ranges.

Just my personal opinion.

shehatesmyhobbies - 8-4-2014 at 05:58 PM

Bob is dead on with that aspect, setting up arcs isn't that bad, but when you pop the hat it can be a chore. I have flown most of the open cell de power kites, and they usually are not too bad setting up and recovery after popping the top hat.

3shot - 8-4-2014 at 06:00 PM

Good info guys! Good info :thumbup:

Bladerunner - 8-4-2014 at 06:01 PM

Like a lot of the others I fly both but Arcs and Flysurfer . Not open cell.

Love my arcs when they are in the air. Ground handling of them is my #1 peeve. While my 18m Phantom has a pretty darn good low end next to open cell their is a spot for the 19m SA below it in wind speeds. The SA also flies earlier than most open cell so ...

My 7m Pulse sets up and packs up quick and easy. The big SA as well.

I am with the others in thinking you are best to try and get some hands on experience before buying and don't judge them flying static. Arcs in particular are a very different animal in motion than static.

3shot - 8-4-2014 at 06:04 PM

Thank you Ken!

BeamerBob - 8-4-2014 at 06:09 PM

The conventional wisdom about open cell depowers such as the Montana is that they are fast turning, twitchy, and will lift you to the moon the first chance it gets. I've had many conversations about the niche that the Apex fills and how the calm and predictable flyability of the Montana seems to do very well at things that people buy the Apex for. I've never been lifted by a Montana in the buggy but I don't ever let it swing through zenith. However, the Montana is the kite I learned to suicide jibe with. They stay pointed where you direct them, and lift will leave you alone if you fly the kite in a way that doesn't ask for it. They are very efficient kites and thus their wind range goes a bit lower than an arc you would use in similar winds.

ssayre - 8-4-2014 at 06:09 PM

I would say autozenith is a pro for the arcs.

Demoknight - 8-4-2014 at 06:37 PM

Yeah arcs are a pain in the ass on the ground period. Everyone will admit to that. But arcs are the smoothest thing in the air since buttered silk. You get the best of both world with them: very direct steering with no pulleys between you and the kite, and unmatched gust munching.

You hear people talk about being the only ones in the air because it is so light, but an arc will let you be the only guy in the air because the wind is so crappy. My use able wind days nearly doubled when I got my charger because I can now kite any wind direction, even crappy dirty punchy stuff. Its like driving a Cadillac with 20 year old worn out suspension over a road full of potholes. You just don't feel all the bumps like the foils and inflated kites.

In clean winds, I just nearly wouldn't want any other kite up because of the brilliant auto zenith feature. In clean winds arcs become a hook locked into the sky over your head. You could lie down for a nap, have a seat and tie your shoe, help a friend untangle their lines, go to a family reunion, make a deposit at the bank, or even go to the barbor for a trim and a shave, all while having the kite sit up there and patiently wait for your commands.

Not to mention they are such an unconventional style of kite and just plain genius in terms of both simplicity and complexity. Also, since they are closed cell, they are suitable for basically any form of traction you want to do.

Pain in the ass on the ground. That is the price you pay to have such a work of art in the air. Oh, and they don't do light wind unless you have a 24m phanny

Feyd - 8-4-2014 at 07:18 PM

Well said Demoknight. Arcs have their place and they can do anything in the right hands and the performance they can provide more than makes up for the PITA ground handling. And to be fair, sure the ground handling can be a pain but it still beats the hell out of pumping an LEI. And with practice the ground handling gets a lot easier. For cruising, the stability is excellent.

Auto zenith is a nice feature especially in a crash but here we don't get steady enough winds for solid auto zenith. But for gust handling they rock and there aren't many kites that can even come close to the depower and wind range of Arcs. The only kite that comes close is the Peak. We have a pretty big Arc riding population here but the Peak is winning a lot of those riders over and Arcs are being relegated to water use while Peak popularity is growing just because they are so easy and so user friendly.

Flysurfer Speeds are the other popular closed cells here and even those guys are considering Peaks because of how easy they are to deal with and the broad wind range. I don't know anyone who drives a buggy that's tried the Peak so I can't say how they would be for that. For snow, they've been very good.

Nfish - 8-4-2014 at 08:03 PM

I've never tried open cell depower, so I'll only comment on ARCs and my Speed 2.

Like previously mentioned, ARCs are really smooth and have a great depower range. I normally just let the bar go when I felt something bad is about to happen and that normally does the trick. I never had to pull the safety except once because the lines were tangled with another kite. The auto zenith is such a great feature that I only land my ARC when it's time to pack-up and go home. I never had much ground handling issue with ARC either as I always pack my ARC with lines and bar attached and launch and land with a buddy (most time it's VAN, lol).

I didn't feel too much difference with Speed 2 except that I do miss the auto zenith feature every time I want to stop to do something. I also still haven't figured out how to go down wind with it very well as it flies so fast to the edge of the window, which is right in front of the direction of your traveling and cause you to loose tension.

3shot - 9-4-2014 at 03:59 AM

WOW. Really good info now. Much thanks everyone!

cheezycheese - 9-4-2014 at 04:14 AM

I am no expert on either. I have both, open cell and arcs. I had the Phantoms for a year or two and never flew them because I enjoyed the Outlaws sooooooooo much. They both have their merits. I have actually devised a set - up method that (for me anyway) takes the hassle out of Arc launching.

Feyd - 9-4-2014 at 05:41 AM

Seriously, there are hardly any "bad" kites out there these days.

ssayre - 9-4-2014 at 06:01 AM

Not to thread drift, but what is the best depower for inland choppy wind. I got an arc because they are suppose to be good for that, but are there any others?

acampbell - 9-4-2014 at 06:29 AM

Both Apex and Montanas can do well with lumpy winds once you get to know them. Arcs are good with gusts since they tend to deform and absorb gusts that way.

Our dear late friend AJ would always joke about putting up his arc at 7:30 am and taking it down at 7:30 pm. For lunch he would tie it off on a log, fence post or trailer hitch and leave it in the air. That was not just for convenience as is was to mess with the heads of the LEI guys on the beach.

An ARC in light wind can be stalled and gently landed with a little bit of grace. Anything else is always a train wreck.

My 18m Phannie can be flown in 6-7 mph easy. A 12v PC muffin fan will inflate it minutes in light winds. I use a 7 v RC car battery from Radio Shack.

3shot - 9-4-2014 at 06:45 AM

Ok. So for the most part it looks like once you master take off and landing, arcs really shine, unless you have to dump it in mid flight. I'm leaning towards an arc I do believe.

BeamerBob - 9-4-2014 at 06:53 AM

Like Feyd said, you aren't going to choose badly here.

Demoknight - 9-4-2014 at 07:34 AM

Yep, once you learn the order of operations to set up, launch, and land, the only time you really have a mess on your hands is when you pop the safety in distress. If you are landing the kite you can pop the safety close to the ground with little or no fuss at all.

acampbell - 9-4-2014 at 08:27 AM

Oh and unlike what some say, launching an ARC is easy. Anything in life that you can do with a beer in one hand is easy in my book.

BeamerBob - 9-4-2014 at 08:55 AM

I recently attempted the clamshell landing on my Phantom II and it worked great on the first try. I'd be nervous to try it in high winds but it looks like it will work whenever you can stall it to the ground.

Bladerunner - 9-4-2014 at 04:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Not to thread drift, but what is the best depower for inland choppy wind. I got an arc because they are suppose to be good for that, but are there any others?

I don't have hands on experience but am told that many of the LEI kites perform as good or better in gusty wind than arcs ?

Demoknight - 9-4-2014 at 05:06 PM

The leis that I have flown do better than most foils I have flown now, but I would disagree that they are better in gusts than arcs. Arcs sometimes overfly and can stall in crappy shifty wind, but they usually drift back into the wind without any problems. If you overfly an lei, they can Hindenburg because they are so nose heavy and you will see it drop like a rock with wings out of the sky.

3shot - 9-4-2014 at 05:19 PM

Some really good points being made

AnnieO - 10-4-2014 at 08:01 AM

Very late to the show but the advice already offered is so spot on!
I had this same debate just over a year ago and so as to not cover ground that has already been covered I'll just tell you what tipped me over to the depower foil direction such as the Montana.

We are both inland flyers and as such the 18M Phantom II size -wise would probably be your best bet given your size and the average winds. That's a big boy to haul around and set up.
The ARC's are perfect for clean, consistent, coastal winds which we just don't get enough of.
The foils do turn faster and are more similar handling-wise to the FB kites you already know.

I picked up an older but really nice 8.5M Flexifoil Sabre II from Chedarhead and it has been perfect for my conditions. I really wanted an ARC but kept coming back to the depower foil because I felt that most of the time the ARC would be like fitting a square peg in a round hole for my wind conditions. The ARC's just need more wind than what a foil requires. So a big ARC will work but will be slow...

Demoknight - 10-4-2014 at 03:14 PM

I really don't feel like setup time is very valid concern because once you learn ground handling of an arc, you can keep lines attached and setup is ridiculously fast. I literally pull my kite out, throw it open, walk the lines off the bar, walk back to the kite to inflate(takes about a minute or less in proper winds), then go pick up my bar and hook in and go. The only extra step is the extra minute to inflate compared to a foil. Same thing for packing up. If you have a buddy to land your kite, packing up is literally the same time as a foil because your buddy lands you and pulls your deflate zipper, and you wrap up your lines and fold the kite in from the wingtips just like any foil.

As for needing more wind, if you are finding you do not have enough ripstop up, then you run into the same problem with a foil as well. There are nice big light wind arcs. I arcs have some of the best cost to size ratios around. A 15-18m arc will get you rolling just fine in ~7-8 mph of wind.

Also, about turning speed, have you gotten a chance to fly a Charger yet? Those things can really swing around!

soliver - 10-4-2014 at 05:24 PM

I have thought about trying Depow on and off for a long time and have read many a thread with a similar intent. However, ... This has been the most helpful one I believe I've ever read.

I have often thought if I were to get into depower, I'd want an arc, but hearing about the ease of set up and other positives of the foils, that seems to be the way to go for me. I struggle and strive to make everything I do kite-wise take as little time as possible to set up and break down to give me the maximum time riding when I'm in the field. This is mostly because I've really gotten to the place where I only get out MAYBE once a month. So whatever I can do to minimize set up and be moving during that time is very valuable to me. So... Apex or Montana,... Maybe Access... It's a ways off, we'll see.

@ Angus... Every time I hear or read something about auto zenith I think of that story you told about AJ. You told me that story the first time I met you on JI and it always comes to mind... Plus your bit about the bar in one hand and a beer in the other :lol:

ssayre - 10-4-2014 at 05:53 PM

I've only flown an arc static once and I haven't flown open cell depower at all, but what pushed me towards arc is although it may take a couple minutes longer to set up (which as long as you own a leaf blower it doesn't take longer just something else you need to bring if the wind is on the light side) I'm hoping that I get more quality hassle free time in the buggy. Hopefully I'll have the winds and the time to test this theory this weekend.

ssayre - 10-4-2014 at 05:57 PM

AnnieO might be right about needing clean wind ( I don't know yet) but if so that is contradictory to the other posts. I think clean wind is best for inflation without artificial means but I'm hoping they handle gusts as advertised and as others have posted. I'm not talking about the mega gusts just the normal least gusty inland days.

AnnieO - 10-4-2014 at 06:07 PM

I can only speak of my experience in the Arc vs. Foil debate but this I know, in my conditions a 15M Arc will not fly in 7-8mph winds, an 18M may or may not very well. Most of us inland flyers also have tree lines to contend with. When the wind is 7-8 at flagpole level it is not the same at kite level on my field because it's surrounded by trees. So filling the Arc and launching the Arc are considerably more difficult. Again, I wanted an Arc so bad I could taste it but my criteria was such that for my first depower kite I wanted to be able to use it as often as possible. An Arc for me did not meet that criteria because I would only occasionally have excellent flying conditions in which I would be able to enjoy it's full capabilities. So, to each his own, but I've been where 3Shot is and since I believe his conditions are similar to mine I'm trying to offer him a solution that will get him out flying more then less.

On the other point about set-up, I'm a one woman show so yeah, a depower foil is easier and less of a hassle for me to set-up.

Yes, I was mainly talking about clean wind for set-up and launch. Arcs are really awesome with handling gusts. It's amazing how different my winds are at kite level from flagpole level, it really can make for a huge challenge filling an Arc with just the wind itself and then actually getting it launched.

ssayre - 10-4-2014 at 06:21 PM

I launched mine in 8 mph wind and it flew great. Not enough power to get moving but it handled and flew fine. As far as the wind at ground level, your right , I would have never been able to launch it without the leafblower. I brought it because I always read the number one thing with launching is making sure it's filled. Plus I already bought it so I have to convince myself I made the right decision. :D

flyguy0101 - 10-4-2014 at 07:08 PM

I have been following this thread and thought I would add my .02. It comes down to what are you wanting to do. Inland flying for me is more about lulls then gusts and also limited space. If you are dealing with light winds sub 8-9 in a smallish area in a buggy fly Fixed bridle on handles. If you have real wind OR room to run then depower all the way though I will admit I really prefer handles in a buggy and depower when I am vertical. It took me a while to realize the right tools are what works and is possible. The majority of my home field flying is fb buggy because that is what Mother Nature offers. When there is enough wind or at the beach in clean winds all I want is board and depower. I believe the safest way to fly is DP but in light winds and normal inland conditions (smallish grass fields) FB Just works better
Scott ( still working on the landing)
Oh and I can fly my arcs in 7 mph winds but that becomes work- where same winds a 6m FB I can have fun. We all need more kites but all have our goto one or two

3shot - 11-4-2014 at 06:15 PM

Again, I would only be using the foil/arc during JIBE, WBB ,etc. Like Annie said, I have some pretty janky inland wind most days. Pretty content with my FBs for my inland flying. Just super curious what a one handed park n' ride would be like. This would prolly be the only time I would ever fly an arc or depower foil. It would be very nice to have one for these special occasions.

So, If I could have only one depower foil/arc to start out riding at the places I listed, what would be a good size for general buggy use. No speed records. No Hot rodding. Just plain ole' cruising? 6'2", 210lbs, in a VTT buggy. By no means am I running out tomorrow to purchase one. Just want to get my mind headed in the right direction.

Thank you all for such an interesting thread so far :thumbup:

Bladerunner - 11-4-2014 at 07:12 PM

Of the stuff in my Sig' I take my 15m Synergy with me when I can only travel with 1 kite. ( accept Ivanpah )

I can work a ride out of that kite by about 7mph on good hard pack and am comfortable under it into the 20's with clean winds.

You can park and ride 1 handed with FB kites and a strop in clean winds ? Maybe not comfortable enough to drink your beer 1 handed but for a good long time.

3shot - 11-4-2014 at 07:33 PM

Oh yes, well... we must be able to drink the whole beer 1 handed :lol:

MeatÐriver - 11-4-2014 at 07:48 PM

There is that next to new 10m access xt for sale on here that was just listed. Absolutely love my 8m, has been my most used kite lately(would be even more so if it was the 10.) The thing just works....does only what you ask of it, nothing you dont.Quite a deal at that price. Super easy handling, very friendly in gusts, large wind wind range, etc.

I have zero ARC experience, but one thing I often hear is "once you know the tricks( launching, landing) it's not so bad, unless you pop the safety and then it can be a mess." Well the open cell depow foils... there is no tricks or quirks, which I like. I'm often landing, launching, parking frequently while grabbing a drink or giving a buddy a hand. As easy as tugging the power lines...or pulling the brake strap and if you do have to drop to the safety, reset is a snap( on the xt anyways) ...Probably even w/o even getting out of the buggy if you're feeling lazy.

Bottom line.... go get your hands on a depower whatwver variation it may be. That XT for sale could most likely be flipped at little to no loss if y didn't fancy it.

Bladerunner - 12-4-2014 at 09:55 AM

Meat is right on.

YOU SHOULD JUMP AT THAT XT FAST OR IT WILL BE GONE ! The perfect deal for you and no risk since it will resell at no real loss.

3shot - 17-4-2014 at 07:32 PM

10m Access on it's way
So it has begun......
A new world awaits.....
:wee:

I'll be like a newb all over again lol
Lots of questions cometh...

3shot - 19-4-2014 at 10:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MeatÐriver

There is that next to new 10m access xt for sale on here that was just listed. Absolutely love my 8m, has been my most used kite lately(would be even more so if it was the 10.) The thing just works....does only what you ask of it, nothing you dont.Quite a deal at that price. Super easy handling, very friendly in gusts, large wind wind range, etc.

I have zero ARC experience, but one thing I often hear is "once you know the tricks( launching, landing) it's not so bad, unless you pop the safety and then it can be a mess." Well the open cell depow foils... there is no tricks or quirks, which I like. I'm often landing, launching, parking frequently while grabbing a drink or giving a buddy a hand. As easy as tugging the power lines...or pulling the brake strap and if you do have to drop to the safety, reset is a snap( on the xt anyways) ...Probably even w/o even getting out of the buggy if you're feeling lazy.

Bottom line.... go get your hands on a depower whatwver variation it may be. That XT for sale could most likely be flipped at little to no loss if y didn't fancy it.

Quite honestly meat, your post and that XT price is what won me over. I am a passive pilot. Not aggressive. That's just what I prefer. I REALLY enjoy flying my uber tame Flows in the buggy. I have been researching depower off and on for the last several months, and the Access always seemed to rise near the top of the list. Funny. Just the other day I posted I was not rushing out tomorrow to buy a depower/arc. LMAO. But like you, Ken, and several others said, that was a mega crazy price to refuse!!

So, did I buy the kite without ever flying a depower before? Yes. Not just here, but a lot of other threads always suggest an 8m or 10m Access as a good intro into depower. You guys have never steered me wrong before. I believe the Access will provide me with every thing I am looking for in a depower. Simple and stable flying that I have come to really love from my Ozone Flows. In fact, the Access is just a gentle giant depower version of the Flow (I'm told). The Ozone quality in this deal was a huge perk as well. I also "figured" the 10m would be a good middle of the road size if I can only have one at this time. Then, I can move up or down a size as I tailor my depower flying preferences. Bottom line is: After several months of ponder, it's time to stop guessing, picking, and choosing. Now its time to get my depower fly on! :wee:

Thank you guys and gals for such a good thread loaded with great info!! :cool:

soliver - 21-4-2014 at 05:09 AM

Congrats on the new kite, buddy... I look forward to seeing it at JIBE. Don't forget to order a new spreader bar for your harness too!

3shot - 21-4-2014 at 06:31 AM

Dino is hooking me up with the Link spreader for the fb AQR. The Divine came with the regular spreader.

Proletariat - 22-4-2014 at 10:59 PM

Launching isn't the problem with arcs, IMO. Its the never ending flopping about,slow inflation, bowtie danger during pre-inflation, lines getting under the kite, inverts, AMD lugging around a ton of nylon in a poorly - designed bag.

However, it is totally worth all the BS, if you fly on a beach. Autozenith is worth its weight in saved blood loss. No bridles is awesome, flying aesthetics are amazing (at least for the phantom I)... Inland, though, its no question. I've almost walked away from the sport a few times due to my battles with arcs.

You're welcome to try my FS's at JIBE if you want. I'm bringing 3, I think.

Proletariat - 22-4-2014 at 11:01 PM

Ah, missed page 2. Congrats! You'll love that kite. Just don't take it into water