Power Kite Forum

Foil Vs Arc.. Time for more soul searching...

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SpecialK - 16-6-2014 at 07:38 AM

Up until Saturday, I was convinced that Foil was the way to go for me.

I was having fun on my Montana, and all was good. This Saturday I was able to make it to a local park about 30 minutes away that sits on a lake. The winds are very constant and they were blowing at 15 mph. I decided to put up the Venom first because I hadn't flown it in a while, and never in such good winds. It was like a dream. Jumping 10+ft, hitting 10-15 mph at least even though the grass wasn't that smooth. I finally experienced first hand the attributes that make so many of you guys love arcs. I felt the gusts, but they didn't yank me like crazy.. I saw how awesome the auto-zenith can be.. Long story short, I rode for nearly 3 hours but didn't even fly the Montana because I was having so much fun with the Venom.

And that leaves me where I'm at now. I know I want to get at least one more big kite. While I was sure it was either going to be a 14m Montana or a 15m Matrixx, now I'm totally unsure. I know I can't always bank on winds like that, but maybe a 19m arc would feel like that in lower winds... I wish I could try one of these big arcs in my winds to find out. Until then I guess I'll just keep dreaming..

BeamerBob - 16-6-2014 at 08:01 AM

I've always had both. You don't owe the kites or anyone any allegiance. Remember, an arc isn't going to perform in winds you would need a 14/15m Montana/Matrix for. If you had a 19m Charger II and a 14m Montana, and you go to fly and the winds are 5-9 mph, I assure you the large foil is the one you will want to fly. But 10-13 and you would have a blast on the big arc. Arcs aren't my go to kite right now but I still have 3 of them and 2 new NAV bars to go with them.

I think the biggest weak spot in your quiver right now is a kite for true light winds. There is a reason your Venom is one of the most popular arcs ever made, but it isn't due to light wind performance. I'd get the large Montana or Matrix and then watch for a deal on a used large Synergy, Phantom II, or Charger II to try it out for the next purchase. Then you would have to decide if you were going to prepare for high wind days more than the Venom can handle.

Get used to this, I've acquired 3 different quivers so far due to moving to new flying locations and have started a new era for me including more small fixed bridle kites and LEIs. But my 8m Montana VIII holds a top spot in the quiver for winds 15-25 mph. As your tastes and skill level change, so will your kite needs.

SpecialK - 16-6-2014 at 08:31 AM

Damn it, why is this sport/hobby so expensive! :)

Seriously though, thanks for the advice. That really helps!

B-Roc - 16-6-2014 at 09:14 AM

If you like the Venom my recommendation would be to sell the Montana (there has to be a lot of overlap between the two) and use the funds to buy a 14-15m open cell foil for light winds.

Bladerunner - 16-6-2014 at 09:46 AM

The time to set up and pack up arcs drove me to purchase a 14m Eskimo. It is an older model and I don't think I was getting the same bottom end that the newer Montana or Matrix might offer ? Wind wise it was pretty much over lapping my 18m Phantom. With the Phantom having a bit better or at least safer feeling top end. We typically have very light winds and I needed a " day saver " . I sold it to fund my 19m SA2 and so far am glad I did. I think I need more time flying it to get the most out of the bottom end though. Being small I am not getting the greatest range from the SA but it fits directly under my phantom. Once it is inflated I was pretty amazed at the low end I do get from the phantom.

When it is in the sky and the wind is right arcs seem to suit my personal style more. It's tough to say what will suit yours ? Maybe what you want to do is shop for extremely good deals and then resell if you aren't in a situation that you can " try before you buy " ?

Snake - 16-6-2014 at 12:25 PM

If you want extreme low end from an arc, I'd suggest an f-arc 1600. I have jumped 10+ feet with mine is sub 10mph winds(I only weigh about 130 lbs). My guerilla 18m never makes it out of the bag since I got mine. Mind you this kite is old so it turns slow, has half the depower of modern kites, and harder to launch and relaunch. It is fast, lifty, rivals a speed3 at upwind performance, and does all the other arc stuff. They are fairly cheap too, only around $200 for a new one.

carltb - 16-6-2014 at 01:46 PM

you cant do this with foils!!............https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10203827462224332&set=vb.1153269341&type=2&theater

carltb - 16-6-2014 at 01:48 PM

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203826756926700&am...

SpecialK - 16-6-2014 at 01:55 PM

I can't do that with my bank account either! :)

Demoknight - 16-6-2014 at 02:37 PM

Yeah that is like double Flysurfer money in the air there... Awesome to look at, but I surely couldn't afford it either.

soliver - 16-6-2014 at 04:08 PM

With all the talk there's been on depow. lately, let's talk stability. Of the 2, which will be MORE stable in less than stable wind? A kite like the Montana, Guru, Frenzy (dp foil), or your standard arc?... Stability in my wind conditions are a BIG factor.

I've heard how good the arcs do with absorbing gusts, but my less-than-favorable style of wind is more frequently "directionally challenged" and lull-ish than gusty. If I were to get into depow. (Which I'm seriously considering) what would suite my wind conditions better... Arc or Foil? I've already got one foot in the foil camp due to saving time from not having to inflate,... Plus I just keep dreaming of Montana's ever since BeamerBob posted his review of the M8.

Keeping in mind I more frequently use my 8.6m and 5.5m RII, I'm thinking a Montana 5 or 6 in he 12ish meter size would probably suit me best... Am I wrong? What's the going price on the M5 or 6 in that size?... Or what else would be a good fit, and how much would it go for?... If I'm going to go DP, I have to sell some stuff and raise the $$. I saw Smeagol's 8m Guru for sale at $550... What about the bigger sizes? 10-12m?... Help a brother out.

BTW... PLEASE DONT U2U OR EMAIL ME ABOUT HAVING A KITE FOR SALE... I HAVE NO MONEY SAVED, I'M ONLY CURIOUS.

RedSky - 16-6-2014 at 05:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
With all the talk there's been on depow. lately, let's talk stability. Of the 2, which will be MORE stable in less than stable wind? A kite like the Montana, Guru, Frenzy (dp foil), or your standard arc?... Stability in my wind conditions are a BIG factor.

I've heard how good the arcs do with absorbing gusts, but my less-than-favorable style of wind is more frequently "directionally challenged" and lull-ish than gusty. If I were to get into depow. (Which I'm seriously considering) what would suite my wind conditions better... Arc or Foil? I've already got one foot in the foil camp due to saving time from not having to inflate,... Plus I just keep dreaming of Montana's ever since BeamerBob posted his review of the M8.

Keeping in mind I more frequently use my 8.6m and 5.5m RII, I'm thinking a Montana 5 or 6 in he 12ish meter size would probably suit me best... Am I wrong? What's the going price on the M5 or 6 in that size?... Or what else would be a good fit, and how much would it go for?... If I'm going to go DP, I have to sell some stuff and raise the $$. I saw Smeagol's 8m Guru for sale at $550... What about the bigger sizes? 10-12m?... Help a brother out.

BTW... PLEASE DONT U2U OR EMAIL ME ABOUT HAVING A KITE FOR SALE... I HAVE NO MONEY SAVED, I'M ONLY CURIOUS.


directionally challenged and lull-ish describe my grass site perfectly. Foils are prone to sudden collapse. Arcs fair much better if you are good with 'em. Would you consider an LEI? I find they cope the best due to their rigid shape. Not any LEI though. Needs to be light wind capable.

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.

BeamerBob - 16-6-2014 at 05:37 PM

I recently went through a dust devil I couldn't see and the lei went 180 degrees around behind me and sat down on the ground. I must say no kite could've stayed flying in those conditions but the lei was earily retaining it's shape if the wind ever stabilized. No luffs and no nose foldovers. Much like the new Montana lol.

ssayre - 16-6-2014 at 06:00 PM


Quote:

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.


I would like to try an lei, but solo launching and landing seems like a lot can go wrong. Do you guys launch and land solo? There was a local selling a 2008 10 meter best waroo for $200 rtf. I think it's gone now but it was tempting

soliver - 16-6-2014 at 06:04 PM

Here's my concern with things like LEI and Arcs... It's the inflation time... My kiting time is regularly limited to 3-5 hours a month... Yes that 1x at 3-5 hours PER MONTH... So whatever can be done to minimize set up and break down will maximize fun tine... "Directionally-challenged" is typically no more than a 90 deg shift... say the forecast is from due south, that typically means it will shift any where from due SE to due SW... It's worse from time to time but wind direction does present that challenge.

RedSky - 16-6-2014 at 06:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  

Quote:

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.


I would like to try an lei, but solo launching and landing seems like a lot can go wrong. Do you guys launch and land solo? There was a local selling a 2008 10 meter best waroo for $200 rtf. I think it's gone now but it was tempting


We buggy people are self reliant. Only in the lightest winds would you need help launching. The waroo is an excellent buggy engine btw.
Solo landing an LEI is the easiest thing in the world to do. It's a failed deadmans turn.

RedSky - 16-6-2014 at 06:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
Here's my concern with things like LEI and Arcs... It's the inflation time... My kiting time is regularly limited to 3-5 hours a month... Yes that 1x at 3-5 hours PER MONTH... So whatever can be done to minimize set up and break down will maximize fun tine... "Directionally-challenged" is typically no more than a 90 deg shift... say the forecast is from due south, that typically means it will shift any where from due SE to due SW... It's worse from time to time but wind direction does present that challenge.


Pumping is quick and easy. Just connect one end of a hose to a twinskin kite and the other to your LEI. Then just squeeze the all the air out of the twinskin.

ssayre - 16-6-2014 at 06:43 PM

What about a twin skin foil? Maybe they would be less prone to collapse in shifty wind but be easier to set up and tear down? Don't know, just guessing.

BeamerBob - 16-6-2014 at 06:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
What about a twin skin foil? Maybe they would be less prone to collapse in shifty wind but be easier to set up and tear down? Don't know, just guessing.


What do you mean? Virtually every foil kite ever made has a front and back skin

ssayre - 16-6-2014 at 06:51 PM

I mean closed cell. Like a neo or similar kite.

Sorry, wrong terminology on the last post. :)

B-Roc - 17-6-2014 at 06:37 AM

What about a Peak? Canopy stiffeners, super light and designed to be stable. Might be worth considering.

ssayre - 17-6-2014 at 08:19 AM


Quote:

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.


Like this?

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/spo/4510833985.html

I can't believe I looked at our local craigslist which has on average maybe 2 kites per year listed and this one happened to be there. Will this swiftly punish an LEI newbie?

soliver - 17-6-2014 at 12:31 PM

I'm really hesitant about an LEI... Mostly due to lack of DP experience... I'm more open to an Arc, but still am liking the idea of a DP foil most because of the set up and breakdown time concerns... I'm liking the price on the used LEI's but I'm thinking they require much more wind than is average around here, plus I'm not sure about the self launch and burst bladders etc etc.

Maybe I just have my heart set on something and I'm not hearing the overall verdict.

Here's what I'm seeing so tell me if I'm wrong:

Arc: best starter Arc appears to be the venom I or II which I've seen in the neighborhood of $300-$500 for the 13m size... Given my wind conditions, would something bigger suit like a 15m?
Pros- gust eater and good and stable (maybe or am I wrong?)
Cons- longer set up time due to inflation, more difficult to recover after deploying the safety.

Foil: I'd love a Montana 5 or 6... I assume these models are more affordable than the 7 & 8, but have no idea what they typically go for $$$ wise. I've looked at the charts and it appears that the 12.5m would suit my most frequent conditions best.
Pros: much easier set up and breakdown but I'm unsure about stability
Cons: no inflation typically means a little loss of stability.
Additional note... I'm not opposed to a different make or model of DP foil, aka Gin Zulu or Guru or whatever, OZ Frenzy or Access, PL Lynx even, ... My main concern is stability in somewhat shifty winds.

LEI: the. Price is great for used inflatos but other than that, I really don't know much about them
Pros: stability sounds great
Cons: inflation set up time. I hear they're difficult for a newb to self launch. Concern over a blown bladder for crashing the thing
You LEI guys tell me more... For right now, the 2 biggest pros for me are the price and the stability,... Otherwise, I'm really turned off.

I would really appreciate some sound advice here... I'm interested in starting to sell some old tools and whatnot that I really don't use and maybe a redundant FB to fund this, but I need to know A. What would be he best purchase to suite my needs and B. HOW MUCH IT WILL COST.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your post here SpecialK, but I think this info might benefit your quandary as well.

And also as I stated above: PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL OR U2U ME ABOUT A KITE YOU HAVE FOR SALE, I DON'T YET HAVE THE MONEY TO SPARE.

IMK - 17-6-2014 at 02:28 PM

If your main concern is stability in shifty winds, you may want to consider a Nasa Star 2. I've found them great for inland winds. You can fly them on handles or bar. They are my "session savers" when the conditions are too crap for my FBs. Mind you I've no experience with Arcs or LEIs so I can't provide a comparison. I've only been bugging for just over a year so please take my experience for what it is (not much).

RedSky - 17-6-2014 at 03:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  

Quote:

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.


Like this?

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/spo/4510833985.html

I can't believe I looked at our local craigslist which has on average maybe 2 kites per year listed and this one happened to be there. Will this swiftly punish an LEI newbie?


Nice find! Buy it. :D
The Crossbow won't punish you if you have experience with a bar. I've owned all sorts of LEI's North Vegas, Flexi ION, Hadlow Pro, Waroo, Rhino, Bandit and fuels and many many more and I can honestly say that the 13m Crossbow is the most friendly and safest kite to fly and powerfully fast in a buggy if you decide to open up the throttle and equally docile with 100% depower.

The more wind you have the better the experience. It makes launching much easier too. You'll want 10-23mph wind for the 13m. There's more than one way to solo launch and the IDS will land the kite for you!

Watch the official Cabrinha Crossbow 2009 video for a demo on how to launch and land. If you decide to buy it then I can offer further support via U2U. :)




RedSky - 17-6-2014 at 03:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
I'm really hesitant about an LEI... Mostly due to lack of DP experience... I'm more open to an Arc, but still am liking the idea of a DP foil most because of the set up and breakdown time concerns... I'm liking the price on the used LEI's but I'm thinking they require much more wind than is average around here, plus I'm not sure about the self launch and burst bladders etc etc.


Here's what I'm seeing so tell me if I'm wrong:

Arc: best starter Arc appears to be the venom I or II which I've seen in the neighborhood of $300-$500 for the 13m size... Given my wind conditions, would something bigger suit like a 15m?
Pros- gust eater and good and stable (maybe or am I wrong?)
Cons- longer set up time due to inflation, more difficult to recover after deploying the safety.

Foil: I'd love a Montana 5 or 6... I assume these models are more affordable than the 7 & 8, but have no idea what they typically go for $$$ wise. I've looked at the charts and it appears that the 12.5m would suit my most frequent conditions best.
Pros: much easier set up and breakdown but I'm unsure about stability
Cons: no inflation typically means a little loss of stability.
Additional note... I'm not opposed to a different make or model of DP foil, aka Gin Zulu or Guru or whatever, OZ Frenzy or Access, PL Lynx even, ... My main concern is stability in somewhat shifty winds.

LEI: the. Price is great for used inflatos but other than that, I really don't know much about them
Pros: stability sounds great
Cons: inflation set up time. I hear they're difficult for a newb to self launch. Concern over a blown bladder for crashing the thing
You LEI guys tell me more... For right now, the 2 biggest pros for me are the price and the stability,... Otherwise, I'm really turned off.

I would really appreciate some sound advice here... I'm interested in starting to sell some old tools and whatnot that I really don't use and maybe a redundant FB to fund this, but I need to know A. What would be he best purchase to suite my needs and B. HOW MUCH IT WILL COST.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your post here SpecialK, but I think this info might benefit your quandary as well.

And also as I stated above: PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL OR U2U ME ABOUT A KITE YOU HAVE FOR SALE, I DON'T YET HAVE THE MONEY TO SPARE.


If I were in your position I'd go for a depower foil. It will be an easy transition for you coming from FB. Later on you might want to try something else. My first depower try-out was with an Ozone Access 6m. DP is not for everyone but for me it was a revelation and the FB kites were sold.

Demoknight - 17-6-2014 at 05:21 PM

I tend to bounce back and forth between depower and fixed bridle. I do not like depower foils as much as arcs, but I think I like my arc about the same as my fixed bridle foils. Each has a time and a place. To me, it is just like having several kites for wind speeds. When I want something deliberate and grunty and I am not sure what the wind will be doing, I will always go for my arc, but when I know I have this perfect smooth 10mph wind, I will ALWAYS reach for an 8m+ fixed bridle foil. I only say that because I do not have a 15m+ Speed...

soliver - 17-6-2014 at 05:24 PM

Thanks IMK, I've often been interested in trying NPWs but we're talking depower.

Thanks RedSky, that's been my thinking.... I'd love to hear someone's take on the stability and prices of the used DP foils.

SpecialK, how do you feel your Montana handles stability wise? BB, I know you've tried every iteration of the Montana, I'd love your take on their stability and their price... Do you feel a 12.5m would be best suited for the wind I described?

Bladerunner - 17-6-2014 at 06:19 PM

Something to note about arcs from my experience. They handle gusty + shifty winds well when in motion but static, not so much.

BeamerBob - 17-6-2014 at 06:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
BB, I know you've tried every iteration of the Montana, I'd love your take on their stability and their price... Do you feel a 12.5m would be best suited for the wind I described?


I started in with the M III. It seemed like a great kite with my lack of experience. We barely had it and then upgraded to a IV. This model had major changes in the design and still a great kite IIRC. I had issues with my V with the tips wanting to tuck if the winds were lighter, but that went away when you got moving and the kite had good pressure on it. From then on, each one seemed perfect, but the next model found ways to improve. I learned for the most part to anticipate a forward tuck and could prevent most foldovers by pulling in the bar quickly. I always considered this an attribute of flying a high performance kite. Now with the VIII, I haven't had it do it even once. I love this new model for sure. I imagine you don't save much money going older than a V. I'd just watch for used ones and don't be too particular about which version you get. Get the newest one you can afford of course.

I'm happy to hear others enjoying and desiring the Montana as much as I have for years. Conventional wisdom seems to finally be catching up with the Montana being recognized as the top shelf kite it has been for years now.

soliver - 17-6-2014 at 07:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
BB, I know you've tried every iteration of the Montana, I'd love your take on their stability and their price... Do you feel a 12.5m would be best suited for the wind I described?


I started in with the M III. It seemed like a great kite with my lack of experience. We barely had it and then upgraded to a IV. This model had major changes in the design and still a great kite IIRC. I had issues with my V with the tips wanting to tuck if the winds were lighter, but that went away when you got moving and the kite had good pressure on it. From then on, each one seemed perfect, but the next model found ways to improve. I learned for the most part to anticipate a forward tuck and could prevent most foldovers by pulling in the bar quickly. I always considered this an attribute of flying a high performance kite. Now with the VIII, I haven't had it do it even once. I love this new model for sure. I imagine you don't save much money going older than a V. I'd just watch for used ones and don't be too particular about which version you get. Get the newest one you can afford of course.

I'm happy to hear others enjoying and desiring the Montana as much as I have for years. Conventional wisdom seems to finally be catching up with the Montana being recognized as the top shelf kite it has been for years now.


Thanks Bob... How about wind range? ATL wind is typically light... I find myself only going out when I see a forecasted 10mph, which usually turns out to be 6-7mph... I'd say a good day holds between 8-12mph wind.... What size Montana or other DP Foil would you recommend?... I'm thinking the 12.5m? Keep in mind I'm most frequently on either a 5.5m or 8.6m RII.

BeamerBob - 17-6-2014 at 07:50 PM

Those are too light for a 9-10m. The 12.5 should be just right, but I imagine there are lots fewer on the used market. In 6-7 you really could use a 14-15m though. When we lived back east, we always had the 9.5 size and here we used a 7 and 9m. Now that there is an 8, it covers most of my range, and the 10 is too much for the lakebed surface in most winds I would drive down for.

ssayre - 17-6-2014 at 08:27 PM

Soliver, too bad the peaks haven't been out longer to be able to get a deal. I think the larger size would be ideal in our winds and they look like pack and unpack would be a breeze. I've got my sights on one in the future.

BeamerBob - 17-6-2014 at 08:32 PM

Freaky double post. Disregard.

hardstatic - 17-6-2014 at 09:31 PM


Quote:

I recently went through a dust devil I couldn't see and the lei went 180 degrees around behind me and sat down on the ground. I must say no kite could've stayed flying in those conditions but the lei was earily retaining it's shape if the wind ever stabilized. No luffs and no nose foldovers. Much like the new Montana lol.


That has got to be one of the strangest double posts. For a moment I thought I was having deja vu.

John Holgate - 17-6-2014 at 09:47 PM


Quote:

I've often been interested in trying NPWs but we're talking depower.



They are, Jim, but not as we know it :D

SpecialK - 17-6-2014 at 10:35 PM

Bladerunner:
Man, that arc was AMAZING this weekend… I would say it fits my style as well. I wish I could always count on wind like that. But alas…

Snake:
F-arc is an interesting idea.. though I don’t think I’m enough of an arc-expert to get the damn thing off the ground :)

Soliver:
I’m not at all offended.. hijack away! I like seeing more opinions!
I’m in a very similar boat. I just don’t have a ton of time to fly so speed is of the essence. I’m very interested in stability too. I considered going LEI too, but I just don’t think that’s the right decision for me.. Regarding my Montana, I really like it, but in my winds it’s defiantly wanted to curl over or collapse.. Some of that is pilot error (trying to up loop instead of down loop for example), but some of it is that my winds just like to die down to nothing, causing the kite to stall.. Once it starts dropping, the air comes out and it collapses. The nice thing about it though, is that quite often it takes no time to relaunch at all. More often than not you can simply pull the center line and off you go again.

B-Roc:
The peak looks really neat. I have never seen that one before! Flysurfer comes up with some cool #@%$#!. I just don’t understand why they’re 3x more expensive than the other companies.. 3k+ for a new kite seems pretty crazy :(



For me the big thing is not so much the gusts, but the lulls that really suck. I can generally deal with getting hit with a gust (or so far I’ve been able to). I hate it when you go from flying to no wind, and the kite backs down and collapses.

Another thing that really sucks is when the wind speeds are all over the place. I find that the damn kites want to overfly in these conditions.. More than once I’ve had the venom up and i get a sustained gust causing it to overfly, followed by no wind, causing it to float down, making me run backwards to try to catch it before it twists.. A few times this whole process was concluded with another gust coming through causing the thing to want to open up in the middle of the power zone. Luckily I’m pretty quick to pull the safety when I see that coming.

As for me, I really don’t know what I’m gonna do. I should have funds for a new kite coming up soon. I’m not sure if I should go with the 14m Montana 8, or maybe use that money to buy a used speed3? I was really digging the matrixx, but it seems like they’re out of stock everywhere.

I think BB has helped convince me I don’t want to get a big arc, so the question for me is, what light wind foil should I get…

AD72 - 17-6-2014 at 11:03 PM

Glad you are having some good sessions with the Venom. I really liked that kite.

IMK - 18-6-2014 at 01:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
Thanks IMK, I've often been interested in trying NPWs but we're talking depower.


Soliver, no worries, it's interesting that you say that. Now that I have my NASA Star 2 kites I don't bother with depower foils anymore for inland flying when the conditions are gusty and variable with lots of lulls. Having said that, LEIs have me intrigued.

Demoknight - 18-6-2014 at 06:02 AM

Just to clarify something, flysurfers are not as expensive as you think. The 21m speed 3 deluxe is $2999. That is the deluxe edition fabric and the largest size. Peter Lynn arcs in larger sizes are over $2k new, and not made out of high end fabric like the deluxe speeds. Also, both versions of the peak are under a grand. I think the 9m is something like $889 brand new from flysurfer US.

abkayak - 18-6-2014 at 06:19 AM

all my decisions are dictated by price but i want to fly them all anyway and so do you...so doesnt matter whats next cause your gonna buy the other anyway

I guess Arcs will be last

Feyd - 18-6-2014 at 06:26 AM

We sell the Peak 6m for $849 and the 9m $949 shipped. http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/flysurfer-click.html To the best of my knowledge the distributor is priced the same for their retail sales.

Bang for the buck you cannot beat the Peak. It is the only kite that we've found that rivals the Arcs in gust handling, dirty wind flying and depow. I've been working on a review but after a season of sending our demos out and riding them myself there's a ton of feedback to share. The review is too long ATM. Gotta thin it out.:D

Been working on a video as well but even edited all to hell its 7 minutes long. I'm not subjecting people to 7minutes of kite footage.

Feyd - 18-6-2014 at 09:15 AM

Here's a shortish version. I have no talent for posting vid to threads here so please check the link. :D


http://youtu.be/ziI6hs1co48

SpecialK - 18-6-2014 at 09:29 AM

Sweet video. You're really lucky to have a place like that to kite!

BeamerBob - 18-6-2014 at 09:30 AM

abkayak - 18-6-2014 at 09:46 AM

correction
i guess peaks will be last...gotta have one of them too

3shot - 18-6-2014 at 04:47 PM

Those Peaks are pretty sweet looking. I dig the black and pink!

B-Roc - 18-6-2014 at 05:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Here's a shortish version.

http://youtu.be/ziI6hs1co48


based on the video I would say a 6 metre peak is not equivalent to a 10-meter oil foil, which I believe is what Flysurfer originally stated. It seems to me that their 6 metre peak is roughly equivalent to a 3 meter apex or 4 meter depower. What would you say?

Feyd - 18-6-2014 at 05:52 PM

Nope, the 6m is easily the equivalent to AT LEAST a 9m depower foil. 9m with 5m extensions is much like 15m Speed 3 in pull. But launches easier IMO.

Depower range easily gets it into the same depow as a 3m.

This is the only kite that Molly and I can ride in the same conditions. There's a lot of over lap with the 9m.

On another note, Has anybody noticed how many post Bladerunner and Bob have? Holy cats.:o

IMK - 18-6-2014 at 06:01 PM

Feyd, do the Peaks have progressive depower or is more on/off (i.e. not much of a linear change between max and min power)?

Bladerunner - 18-6-2014 at 06:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  


On another note, Has anybody noticed how many post Bladerunner and Bob have? Holy cats.:o


I don't have much of a social life. It amazes me that Bob can be so helpful and raise a family at the same time. :thumbup:

Feyd - 18-6-2014 at 06:57 PM

Very progressive. Bar feedback is very good and you can really see how depowed she is by the shape.

That was my 1900th post. :P

BeamerBob - 18-6-2014 at 07:13 PM

Ha! It's just 7 years of 3-4 posts a day. I check in often and it's odd to not find something to ask about or comment on.

Bladerunner - 18-6-2014 at 07:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Very progressive. Bar feedback is very good and you can really see how depowed she is by the shape.

That was my 1900th post. :P


1900 posts that are 10 times more valuable than any info I can pass on. That makes you a far more valuable contributor than I will ever be ! :cool:

BeamerBob - 18-6-2014 at 07:45 PM

I would agree that I don't miss a Feyd post! Highly concentrated wisdom. I usually just take the size he is talking about and go down one size and what he says probably applies to fast buggying on Ivanpah.

soliver - 18-6-2014 at 08:10 PM

Wow... Apparently I just broke 1700... Anywho...

Feyd, what's the effective low end of the 9m?...

Crap... Now I want one :mad:

Edit: I'm just looking at the data on the FS website saying the 6m's range is 3-16 knots and the 9m range is from 3-12 knots ... Wow... So Feyd... How little is TOO little wind for the 6m and how much seems like TOO much for the 9m?

Again... crap... Now I want one :mad:

lunchbox - 18-6-2014 at 09:18 PM

Aw man...watching that Peak video got me wanting one too!

I don't know why it's so hard for me to believe that the Peak has so much power and the depower is so good...it's gotta be the single skin that is throwing me off...

So....I've been wanting to make the move to depower when I landboard in my little dirt field. Right now I'm using my Voltage 6.5m and Blade IV 6.5 for the light wind and the often lully and holey conditions. I need a kite that can perform in light winds (6-12mph) but also turn really fast...I often need to redirect quickly so I can get out of those holes (in the wind).

So what size of Peak would I need to take the place of my Blade 6.5 and 8.5? And will it turn as fast on a bar as I can get the blades to turn on handles?

OBTW...more peak videos please :)

Oh...any demos?

John Holgate - 18-6-2014 at 11:42 PM

How does the Peak stay at the side of the window at the end of the vid? It looks like i'ts just hooked to the ground stake via the chicken loop...which can't be right?

ssayre - 19-6-2014 at 05:25 AM

I like how it looks like a predatory alien jelly fish.

Demoknight - 19-6-2014 at 06:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate  
How does the Peak stay at the side of the window at the end of the vid? It looks like i'ts just hooked to the ground stake via the chicken loop...which can't be right?


Same as any kite that does not auto zenith. Like NPW or LEI do that too. That is one way to solo land an LEI with an anchor point.

SpecialK - 19-6-2014 at 07:07 AM

The Peak does look pretty neat. I bet it's not very good for jumping though? (Maybe I'm totally juvenile, but i really like jumping around :) )

B-Roc - 19-6-2014 at 09:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SpecialK  
The Peak does look pretty neat. I bet it's not very good for jumping though? (Maybe I'm totally juvenile, but i really like jumping around :) )


Others commented elsewhere that it is about as lifty as an Access - meaning it was designed more for touring than jumping. From the little I've seen / read it is no jumping machine.

Feyd - 19-6-2014 at 12:03 PM

Yes, anchored to the chicken loop and can be launched and landed at the edge of the window. My experience has not been that any non-AZ kite can do this but as Demo pointed out LEIs can do the same thing. But I haven't flown any other foils that do it although the 2014 Access comes damn close. Just not close enough for me to trust it.
:D

Jumping. More lift than the Access or Apex IMO. At least for me it's easier to huck with. It's obviously a touring kite and handles as you would expect but it can be flown pretty aggressively and you get some very Flysurfer-esque floaty boosts out of her if you have speed and time it right. You can even kiteloop them.

If you're used to freestyle kites my guess is the Peak feels like a dog for jumping. Especially if your timing is dialed for lifty, snappy kinds of kites. And I suspect that your average Peak buyer isn't too into hucking into orbit. I didn't think the kite would jump at all when I first rode it. The way it functions it didn't seem clear how it could.

But It's jumps very nice. Both sizes. The 9m floats nice.


How it stacks up to Blades is a good question. I don't fly FB's so I can't say for sure. Blades, like most FB have a lot of power for their size, (or depows have a lot less, depends on perspective) but the 6m is easily as strong as a 9m depower. (ala Frenzy,Apex etc...) My guess is pound for pound they have to be fairly close????:puzzled: If so, think of a Blade that can dump all it's power in a blink.

And again I can't stress enough, both sizes fly in damn near nothing. For a kite made out of standard material, with a low AR, they will launch in the slightest puff. BUT THIS DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL PULL YOU IN 3kts. But they pull darn well in pretty low winds and for low AR they still get good apparent.

Feyd - 19-6-2014 at 12:34 PM

Holy HI-Jack. Sorry SpecialK I didn't realize we had hijacked your thread. If there's going to be continued Peak speak maybe there should be a Peak thread?

soliver - 19-6-2014 at 12:55 PM

I kinda thought it was relative to the conversation... So...

What's the useable low end for both sizes?

SpecialK - 19-6-2014 at 02:23 PM

The more the merrier! I don't own this thread, we do! :)
(Besides, how many other foil vs arc threads are there already.. I was hesitant to make it anyway because of that. Glad it's turning into a useful resource! )

Demoknight - 19-6-2014 at 02:36 PM

I am dying to get a demo of a Peak honestly. Given their price, they are actually surprisingly affordable for their performance people rave about. Although I would prefer to see that for myself before I ever considered buying one. Thinking the 6m would be great for my wind ranges here in Chicago, and the 9m would be awesome for when I move back to GA. I will have to get a 18m or so arc if I wanted to fly in the ultra light winds in GA... That place just sucks for power kiting in my experience inland at least. Everyone knows how awesome the coastal winds are there.

soliver - 19-6-2014 at 02:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
...for when I move back to GA. I will have to get a 18m or so arc if I wanted to fly in the ultra light winds in GA... That place just sucks for power kiting in my experience inland at least.


Come on now... It's not that bad... It just takes a little patience... And trains you up REALLY WELL for when you hit the beach.

And yes, the 9m looks like it'd be perfection here in Hotlanta.

SpecialK - 19-6-2014 at 03:17 PM

Since this is becoming a free-for-all thread. I thought I'd report that today on lunch I found a new field with a very long unobstructed run downwind. Winds here typically are from the south heading north.. and the site is near a north<->south highway. The wind is pretty light today but they were more consistent at this spot than anywhere else near me. (The lake ride that spawned this thread is about 30-40 min away).

I was able to fly my montana back and forth for 30 minutes. It's a little tight, no cruising, but hell, for constant winds, I'll take it.

I'm pretty psyched. There may even be more land nearby, but i'd have to drive/walk onto a dirt road to check it out. Next time I might brave the dirt road (it's city land) because I saw some city guys watching me fly.. I think they were interested.. Waved to them to show i'm friendly..

RedSky - 19-6-2014 at 03:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SpecialK  
Since this is becoming a free-for-all thread. I thought I'd report that today on lunch I found a new field with a very long unobstructed run downwind. Winds here typically are from the south heading north.. and the site is near a north<->south highway. The wind is pretty light today but they were more consistent at this spot than anywhere else near me. (The lake ride that spawned this thread is about 30-40 min away).

I was able to fly my montana back and forth for 30 minutes. It's a little tight, no cruising, but hell, for constant winds, I'll take it.

I'm pretty psyched. There may even be more land nearby, but i'd have to drive/walk onto a dirt road to check it out. Next time I might brave the dirt road (it's city land) because I saw some city guys watching me fly.. I think they were interested.. Waved to them to show i'm friendly..



You are brave. Where you goin' city boy.
Sorry, couldn't resist. :D


ssayre - 19-6-2014 at 03:44 PM

Good one Redsky, that's a classic.

soliver - 19-6-2014 at 05:01 PM

As long as nobody has to squeal like a pig, I think we're ok :o :piggy:

SpecialK - 19-6-2014 at 05:07 PM

Hahah! Nice one!

I drive a Subaru WRX, I guess I could tell them I was practicing rallying.. if that would get me in less trouble than flying a kite. HMMM..

PHREERIDER - 19-6-2014 at 06:39 PM

...and the banjo music arrives...and venom I

bangin vid FEYD! and now back to the wildcat thread show,

http://vimeo.com/38705378

BeamerBob - 19-6-2014 at 09:19 PM

Double post again from checking in on the iPad. Not sure what I'm doing but it's my fault somehow.

soliver - 19-6-2014 at 11:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
Double post again from checking in on the iPad. Not sure what I'm doing but it's my fault somehow.


One of 2 things happens to me on my iPhone or iPad to create a double post.

A. It may seem like it's taking too long for my response to load and I'll hit the "post" button twice.

B. If I hit the back arrow after I've posted something (regardless of how long it's been since I hit the post button) it takes me back to the page as if I had not "posted", and I may accidentally hit "post" again. This is how you end up double posting with others posting between your double post.

Annoying yes.

ssayre - 22-6-2014 at 09:43 AM

Specialk, what is your setup time on the arc? I actually timed myself today and from bag to sky was 10 minutes and about the same for putting it away. Just seeing if thats about the average for arc users or if I still have room to improve. Demoknight, I know your faster than that.

SpecialK - 22-6-2014 at 10:31 AM

I'd say it's around 10-15 minutes.. It depends heavily on how windy it is, and if my lines are tangled or not.

Re wind: The more wind the quicker the thing will inflate. I've been guilty of forgetting to close the deflate vent before costing me time, but most of the time I remember now.


re lines: I've tried doing like the foil and keeping the lines attached, but it ends up tangling and costing me an EXTRA 10+ minutes to untangle. If i keep them separate it's not so bad, though if I could keep them attached it would be better... Also at first I wasn't using a sandbag to keep it down. Adding that made all the difference in the world!

BeamerBob - 22-6-2014 at 10:56 AM

If you are mindful of not flipping the bar around carelessly while packing, you shouldn't have more than a turn or 2 to have perfect "railroad track" lines on your next setup. Also be careful not to poke your bar through loops of line in the bag. Put the bar somewhere in the bag that there aren't any loops of line. If you pull the safety to land your kite, work out tangles before you pack away.

ssayre - 22-6-2014 at 11:00 AM

10 minutes is when I artificially inflate it. It would add 5-10 more minutes depending on the wind if I let it naturally inflate. Tried the same thing with leaving lines attached without success. Here's my process in a nut shell. unfold kite, weight upwind tip, unzip inflate zipper, unwind lines, stake down chicken loop (I find this very helpful when sorting out lines), grab the outer brake lines and walk them out to separate from center lines, untwist center lines if need be, remove stake and stake safety line only (just in case kite tries to move), attach all lines, final inflate with blower, walk back and launch. Something that I've learned is helpful is before I roll my lines up when I'm done, I stake the chicken loop and make sure there are no twists before I roll them up. This seems to help minimize twists on the next set up.

3shot - 22-6-2014 at 11:29 AM

You guys are killing me. My new Venom II has been in the bag since I got it a few weeks ago. I got my bar and lines a few days ago, and have had sh#tty weather/wind ever since. It really is making me lose sleep at this point. I must fly!! Almost down to playing hooky the next good wind day :flaming:

ssayre - 22-6-2014 at 02:19 PM

3 shot, If it makes you feel any better, I flew the venom twice today.:evil: Once at 8:30 this morning and again at 3. Both times static. I didn't think I'd have enough wind so I didn't even bring the buggy but I probably could have in the afternoon. More wind than what was forecast. Don't worry, you'll get out there soon.

BB what did you mean by don't put the bar through loops of line? I usually wind the lines on the bar. are you talking about if you leave lines attached?

PHREERIDER - 22-6-2014 at 03:34 PM

leave attached!, gotta do it same way EVERYTIME

all begins with a clean finish...the landing. stall reverse kite down, roll til front line slide is closest to the ground. unhook and let go to front line flag , kite lays out smooth. at the let go point, the bar should be directed to fall BEHIND the kite. done properly it won't twist.

walk up on the front line, and secure the tip

now the tidy parts....unzip deflate on the walk to get other tip .... clam unit tip to tip, secure. fetch the bar, WALK out lines to restore front line slide. at this point, check lines , wrap lines to kite ,half hitch (do not allow the bar to pass thru ANY LINES ) place bar on tip , fold and roll spars, bar and all, secure roll.
now reverse actions to launch, unit is ready to go

BeamerBob - 22-6-2014 at 04:11 PM

Yes. Always leave lines attached. Follow phrees advice exactly. Be careful not to put bar with wound lines through any line or bridle when stowing it all.

Feyd - 22-6-2014 at 05:04 PM

Yup, Phree nailed it. It's helpful to get into the habit of holding the part of the bar that you are inserting into the bag, in your hand. That way you can feel if you start to put the bar through you lines or even better, a bridle if on a bridled kite. Removes risk of nasty tangles when packing up and unpacking.

Demoknight - 22-6-2014 at 06:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
Specialk, what is your setup time on the arc? I actually timed myself today and from bag to sky was 10 minutes and about the same for putting it away. Just seeing if thats about the average for arc users or if I still have room to improve. Demoknight, I know your faster than that.


I have gotten it down to about 7 minutes for myself if the wind is blowing strong enough to inflate quickly, although I tend to ride fixed bridle every time if the wind is lighter than 15mph.

I basically do what Phree says every time I unpack and pack. I always leave lines attached so I never have to walk my lines. I roll the kite out, weight it down, open the zipper, walk the bar out, walk back to the kite and help it finish filling, then zip it up and go grab my bar for launch. I really have it down to a science now and can pop it up even if I only have a few spare minutes to fly.

ssayre - 24-6-2014 at 05:56 AM


Quote:

leave attached!, gotta do it same way EVERYTIME


Thanks guys, I thought I almost had a routine down but I'm going to give this a try. If I was able to leave the lines attached, that would eliminate almost all of my set up headaches.

One more question. Since I've only had experience in lighter wind with the arc, I'm not sure how it should be set up or how it will act in higher wind. When you are moving in medium or higher winds do you keep the trim most of the way out for better control? And when your in motion do you go faster with the bar pulled in or let out? I would assume let out so the kite flies faster but some of the videos I've seen looks like riders are going fast with the bar pulled in? Experience will probably answer most of my questions but I want to minimize the painful learning lessons. :)

Demoknight - 24-6-2014 at 06:08 AM

Ssayre of course it depends on how hard the wind is blowing, but on a surface that I can generate any really speed on I tend to have my deposer trim about half in at 15-18mph and once I get rolling I pull my bar all the way in and sine the s*** out of it to get up to speed very quickly. It helps that nav bars have the bar stop, so I pull it up to the chicken loop and lock it there with my bar stop. If you suddenly need to depower it comes loose easily with two fingers pulling the bar stop back up the line.

At JIBE I had my bar stop in once I sat in the buggy and kept it there. I had it really well balanced so that I was just barely getting over powered once I started hitting 35mph or so.

ssayre - 24-6-2014 at 06:19 AM

Thanks Errol. So in principal the bar is normally pulled in at least some when moving and when overpowered you could let the bar out to bleed off some power? Seems like I should know this stuff by now, but without enough wind, it makes it hard to learn.

Demoknight - 24-6-2014 at 06:54 AM

Yeah, what you have to keep in mind while moving is you can lose power in two ways:
First way is just letting the bar out, which you know dumps power. This serves a double purpose, because it also speeds the kite up and puts it farther on the edge of the window. Since you are moving, it puts the kite farther out in front of you, causing you to catch up to the kite easier and take tension off the lines. If your lines are not tight, your kite has nothing to work against and nothing to pull.

If you have an emergency stop situation though, on the buggy, you crank your wheel towards the kite and slide facing at the kite. You don't have to move the kite up for this to stop you. You can be fully lit and stop in maybe 20-30 feet on hard pack sand, even faster on grass. It is important that you slide, and not turn. If you turn, you will have a tangled mess rolling down wind. If you slide, you just dump all tension on the lines and the kite will float back gently on the slack lines until you stop and it can go back to zenith.

ssayre - 24-6-2014 at 07:29 AM

Yeah, I've played that situation in my head and worried that I would not slide and end up with the buggy tangled into the lines. I will experiment a little in more manageable speeds before I try it in emergency. I might try an s turn as well. Turning slightly into the kite and then turn up wind while pulling the kite out of power zone. That has worked for me somewhat on my fb.

Bladerunner - 24-6-2014 at 07:52 AM

When in motion and with decent wind is when the term depower really applies.

When running with the kite at the edge of the window pulling the bar in drops the kite back a bit and creates a real power boost. Pushing it out sets the kite farther forward and spills more wind .

Flying in a sine pulling the bar in as you dive down each time helps generate power and speed.

When you feel over powered getting the kite low , to the edge and turning upwind is a safe way of slowing down although it feels scary.

BeamerBob - 24-6-2014 at 07:57 AM

Set the trim so a bar fully in will slightly backstall the kite. Then use the depower range if the bar to turn the power up or down as you get moving. There will be a bar position that feels like you are getting all you can from the kite. Adjust slightly to see if a little more or a little sheeting in of the bar is better.

Many of my videos are running with depower and you can see how I have the trim set and how I'm working the bar for the current situation.

3shot - 24-6-2014 at 06:29 PM

Wow some good info in this thread for the arc newbs like myself. Wait a minute... I need wind first to even be a newb. Bwaaaahahaha. My wind looks poo poo through Sunday again.

Demoknight - 25-6-2014 at 05:48 AM

Sorry bud I know you have been itching to get out there.

SpecialK - 25-6-2014 at 06:02 AM

I also want to say thanks for the info.. I've been pretty quiet because I'm traveling in Bladerunner's country right now.

ssayre - 25-6-2014 at 06:13 AM

Thanks, great tips. Can't wait to try them when I get some wind.

markite - 25-6-2014 at 07:27 AM

There will also be adjustments done for different conditions like wind speed, angle you are traveling, size of kite and how much power you like to ride with, and adjustments for personal comfort.
In lighter wind it's always better to have kite speed first - so adjust so that you don't choke the power and slow the kite down too much when pulling in the bar. You might find as you start working the kite to get rolling you could pull the bar in a bit more before it just starts to stall but I may adjust the trim slightly so that you don't even have a hint of that ability to slow down on the kite. It's better to really work the kite up to speed, the apparent wind kicks in and now you can adjust the trim a bit more.
When the wind is at an angle to the beach and you are working a bit upwind one way and downwind the other. I might be using a bigger sized kite so upwind I have it trimmed for less power to get the kite as far out front as possible and then downwind adding as much power as possible so that I don't outrun the kite and also using a bigger kite and running downwind i can have it to max power.
Running on the dry lake and running a kite in the 8-12m size and going totally lit I find at the once you work all the angles of wind and change direction a bit and work up more speed etc - when you are powered and angling upwind a bit you can have your arm fully extended and bar out and that kite is still traveling fast and as you angle upwind there is still a lot of pressure until you come upwind enough to slowdown. So there are times when you can be riding with the bar in and times when the bar is out and you still have the same power but that's generally when you have a lot of room to run - works the same kite skiing fully powered.
For personal comfort there are times when I'm riding and find that I am working the bar a little and maybe pulling it in so that it's 4-5 inches from the chicken loop and that's where the sweet spot is for max speed but I realize I'm holding bar pressure. So at times like this I may adjust my trim to slightly de-power a bit that means that sweet spot is now closer to bar fully in and puts my arms as a slightly more relaxed angle not needing to hold the pressure further out.
Line length changes it as well. Being able to run long distances with a GPS/speedometer visible for current speed is a nice way to see how different things change the speed. At times when you think adding more pressure helps to boost speed often slows it down a bit.
I was telling Jason it's better to be on the side of kite speed first - setting slightly light. You can always add power but if you start off choking or stalling the kite you might be frustrated and not understanding why you aren't moving as good as you think you should be.

B-Roc - 26-6-2014 at 09:37 AM

This thread has been very helpful in confirming my decision to fly foils. :P

I think it takes me about 3 minutes to get my kite in the air on a very bad day. ;)

propylene22 - 26-6-2014 at 11:38 PM

Regarding Montanas and the nosedive crumple in light or twisty wind. I added about 5mm to the A bridal cascade on my Montana III 9.5 to bring the leading edge of the kite up just slightly. It made almost no noticeable affect to the performance of the kite other than to prevent the thing flipping over in gusts or vorticies. I have a 9 M Montana 7 now so I may be interested in letting this kite go if anyone is interested.
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