Power Kite Forum - Thoughts on safety

Thoughts on safety

soliver - 19-12-2014 at 07:02 PM

So if you don't know, I've injured myself... I had the kite too high in a turn when a gust hit... I was lofted high enough that when I hit the ground I severely broke my heel bone and am slated for surgery Tuesday.

So as you can imagine as a father of 4, husband of 1 and sole breadwinner in the household, this injury is effecting everyone such that there have been conversations about how to proceed and whether or not it's time to put away the kites. Ashli thinks I shouldn't give it up; so it is good to know she is supportive of whatever I decide.

I can see now that I need to revamp my thinking and how I approach my kiting... If I decide to continue (which I'm still not 100% sure I WANT to), I plan to cut back on my urge to go fast as well as on my obsessiveness about fitting it in wherever and whenever possible. I think the the combination of these two caused me to cut corners and not be as safety conscious as perhaps I should have been.

All of that also is making me reconsider my quiver. I have LOVED my Reactors, but in the interest of not repeating what I am going through now, I'm wondering if there is a safer choice... With all the discussion about the NASA Star 2's and 3's I'm wondering if they might be a better choice for me? Obviously, I'm concerned primarily about being lofted again... No thanks... Are the NASAs better about that? Any advice on a non-lofty quiver? Tell me more about the NS's safeties?

Any advice is welcome... I can take my lumps too... I'm already hurtin bad, I probably deserve it.

Please share your thoughts

MeatÐriver - 19-12-2014 at 07:40 PM

Late last year into the beginning of this year I was dead set on gathering a quiver of the late model Reactors that I did get a couple of. Though a problem presented itself.... They just weren't to usable when I decided to go for a quick fly in town, which often gets gusts double the base wind speeds(shameless plug: anyone interested in a 5m Blurr:D). Then I found the ozone access's. I would recommend anyone flying in crappy winds to give them a shot. The 8m I have is pretty much my 1 kite inland wind quiver. Only thing it lacks is in the upwind department, but I never have to walk it back by any means and I'm sure it's still much better than the NS's in that regard. I should also mention and others can tell you that I can still give you a run for your money in nice winds on the beach to boot(I'm looking at you Bobby! :thumbup:

) Never been bitten by either of them yet..... knock on wood.... which is more than I can say for the FB's I had. Just a thought.

RonH - 19-12-2014 at 07:57 PM

#1 - Any kite can overpower you in a gust

#2 - your own skills can save you to a point... after that you are at the mercy of the wind

#3 - A quick release can be useful or just bulking up the upper body strength and hanging on - no harness!

#4 - Be very careful moving from Fb to Depower - The first thing a FB kiter will do is hang on and take the power in your arms... You know what happens when you try that with a depower!!!

My own opinion is a tube kite might be the safest way to go as you can tune them to make almost no power with the bar out. 30 - 40 knots, 9meter kite and I could let the bar out and still sink back into the water with the kite at zenith... Now the water is easier to crash easily without body damage unless you hit your board.

3shot - 19-12-2014 at 09:17 PM

Spencer my friend, don't give up kiting please. Nothing wrong with your Reactors. I think we have very similar wind, and stropping in my janky just isn't going to happen. I'll save that for the clean ocean air with an AQR. In the mean time, I only fly FBs Pop Eye arm style with janky inland wind. Just too many of mother nature's variables.

Get well soon my friend, and see you on the sands of Jekyll.

ssayre - 19-12-2014 at 09:22 PM

This is a topic I'm passionate about since I've gutted my quiver twice over to find kites that I feel comfortable being hooked to and use in my gust lull inland conditions. The ns2's safety is simple and effective, but more importantly, it will give you more time to react to pull the safety than higher ar kites. NS2's are not lofty unless you fly them in too much wind for the size and you are grossly overpowered. They are not without risk, but I do feel more safe and comfortable using them than the other kites I have flown. I also feel very comfortable with the peak, but I can't comment on it until I'm able to use it in the buggy. My general feeling with the peak from my static flights is it has a very effective depower which I can't help but think that will translate very well for gusts while in the buggy.

The Ozone Access is brought up a lot for being good for inland wind. I haven't flown one obviously.

SLE's are well known for their depower but my guess is they wouldn't handle lulls as well which is why I personally haven't considered a foil or an inflatable. (I'm guessing on this one, so someone with more experience can speak to that aspect)

I personally like single skin design for the ease at which they fly and their ability to fly well during lulls.

My guess is that I would like an "access like" kite a lot, but personally I'll probably stay the course with what I've finally found that is working well.

Tough calls to make, but given my research you can fly what you have unhooked (with the exception of aqr and ocean air), or go the way of depower / nasa

When your healed up, let me know if you want to try out one of my kites and I'll send it your way.

RedSky - 19-12-2014 at 10:56 PM

Sorry to hear about your fall. For now heal up not give up.

John Holgate - 20-12-2014 at 12:47 AM

I'd have to second what Sean says. I'm pretty paranoid about safety to the point where I'll never be a really good kite flyer 'cos I just aint willing to push the envelope. I"m happy to cruise around and feel the wind in my hair - what little there is left of it. I've grown to love the safety, responsiveness and ease of flying the NS2's above all my other kites - including the Ozone Access and HQ Apex. Last time I flew anything other than the NS2's was November 2013 - took my 4m Access out to the point and back at Sandy Point - it was still pretty gusty and I felt a little unsettled by the nervous nature of the 4m (and they're not nervous kites by any stretch). I got back to where I'd left my stuff and put the 2.5m NS2 up instead and repeated the trip - maybe a couple kph slower, but the kite felt much more stable and friendly and I was more relaxed flying it.

You can throw them up behind you to slow down much harder than you would with a foil. I've been lifted maybe an inch out of my seat in a 20knot gust flying the 5.5m but that's about as lifty as I've found them. I've never flown an LEI or spent any real time on an ARC, or flown the Peak for that matter, but compared to all the other kites I have flown, there's absolutely no question that I feel FAR safer flying the NS2's. I'm also the slowest buggier on the beach with them too....

What I really like about them (and this is probably true of all Nasa's) is they create most of their power at slow speeds and don't have the tendency to collapse, drift back into the window, unfurl and go POW like some of my foils do in gusty conditions. As far as safety systems go, check out the Pro Depower bar video that I did.

They still make a shirt load of power at relatively slow speeds, so the potential for injury is still there - I just feel the odds are a little more on my side with 'em.

Probably safer still is a Blokart - if you get knocked over in gust, the mast holds you up and you're strapped in so no getting dragged across the beach by a kite - just a thought!

I've had a couple of buggy accidents - one minor and another that could have gone really, really horribly wrong and I was very lucky to get out of it with a black eye - and that feeling still haunts me - particularly as I often fly alone and isolated. It's always a trick when weighing up risks v rewards. I gave up gliding 'cos I thought the risks outweighed the rewards and didn't go further than an introductory lesson with paragliders for the same reason (ok, the instructor had something to do with it too).

You don't have to make any decisions today, tomorrow or next week. Understand what went wrong and how to avoid it ever happening again. But it would be nice to think that if you're standing in a park, or down the beach and feel that nice steady wind on your face, you'll say to yourself, hey, what a great day....I'm gonna go and get the buggy out....

IMK - 20-12-2014 at 04:32 AM

I agree with the above. Heal first and take your time making a decision. I'd like to echo what's been said about the NS2s - very, very low lift kites.

I'd also recommend an AQR. I fly stropped in using an AQR with my FB kites all the time and I fly in some really janky winds. My AQR has released three times in the blink off an eye. One second I was flying my kite and then before I even registered what was happening, it had released. It happens that quick. I tried to 'popeye' it a few times in janky conditions but became worried that I was teaching myself to hold onto the handles too tight. Then when switching over to the AQR there would be a risk that I'd get lofted even if it auto-released owing to the fact that I had a death grip on the handles. I've had to practice flying on handles with a lighter grip.

My suggestion is to persevere with flying stropped using an AQR, especially when the wind is janky. If it's still way too janky to fly stropped in on any given day, then pull out the Nasa's. That way you've got lots of choices to fly safely and still have heaps of fun.

flyguy0101 - 20-12-2014 at 07:52 AM

Spencer. I really do understand your concerns and lessened desire. I no longer Will board in my mtn winds but still buggy. Have decided that board and jumps require clean winds. As for safety USE YOUR AQR. There is not a need to change kites or get something new just use the tools you already have. Not trying to be an a$$, but since budget is tight I think you need to use what you have. Fwiw I fly a lot less since my accident because of fear and I generally still feel it everyday but "moving by what cannot be seen" still makes me smile in a very special way
Scott

PHREERIDER - 20-12-2014 at 08:46 AM

ouch on the injury!

use what you got , you are gonna be super sensitive to everything that alone will make it safer.

rest recovery first.

BeamerBob - 20-12-2014 at 10:15 AM

Your reactor is designed to not be a lifty kite, so it maybe could use some adjustment. I can help if you want to tweak it.

Lei kites are probably my first choice now in extreme winds due to their ability to significantly depower and they will never collapse and reinflate deep in the window. However, they are not a solution for a quick session in wind that drops to nothing. You can't beat a big fixed bridle for that.

The depower foils such as Access and Montana give me a safe feeling that they aren't going to surprise you with anything. Meat Driver gets along great on his Access. On his beach and the wind of the day, I couldn't pass him with my 5.4m Vapor. Maybe I could've gone up a size but there were certainly no performance glitches in his Access. My Montana has a quick and intuitive safety that immediately ends whatever you don't like it doing. On that note, I've never in 7 years been unexpectedly lofted by a Montana. They are lifty kites by design, but the lift is controllable and only kicks in when you tell it to. I've frequently had a 7-8m up to the upper 50s in the buggy and 2 runs this past spring over 60 mph. The kite was never threatening to luff or jump around or anything else I didn't tell it to do.

You getting hurt will make you highly attentive and very cautious when you fly again and for years to come. That's not a bad thing. I've had times after a half hour loading the car and a 40 minute drive to Ivanpah, that I've either not even unloaded anything or took 2 passes and came back to camp to load up and go home unhurt with all my equipment in good order. There is no shame in packing it up to fly another day. There is a fine line between an epic session and being foolhardy. Work on approaching epic and don't ever be foolhardy.

ssayre - 20-12-2014 at 11:02 AM

Quote by Bladerunner on another thread "Of the 3 I think Nasa wing is most forgiving, Arc is most entertaining and FB is most frustrating. "

This was the deciding statement for me to choose a different route for inland kiting.

Lots of good points in that thread. Here

Risk and controlled risk..... a fine line sometimes between them.

skimtwashington - 20-12-2014 at 01:06 PM

Bought a panic snap(QR) for use with FB on strope... but never used 'em.

Part one:

Do Pilots make mistakes in kite handling? In choosing wrong kite? Was mishap/accident just a mishandling of kite, or brief loss of attention...or did the wind do something unexpected at that moment?....

Pilots control their decisions..not the wind. They control their muscles-how they launch, steer, position and generally handle kite... or perhaps until fatigued and weak..... but not the wind.

I try to feel a symbiosis with the wind. Have a little meeting with her and see her nature after a standing around, get-to-know-you period. This can take a few minutes to quarter hour+ if her mood seems to be changing a lot.

Then I choose a kite. One that can handle her worse outburst from the introduction period. But the wind can change into a different animal not present in the introduction. I try to be aware, stop.... and make immediate re-introduction. There may be a change of kite.... but unfortunately I an not usually back where I started..and unlike some, I don't carry other kites with me in luggage compartment. Carefully pilot back(Kite outside of fullest power part of power window)or walk back is choice if I need a smaller kite- 'stat'.

There is always packing up and leaving..or not going out in first place as a choice.

Part two:
This sport has risks. People take different risk levels within it, and also try to mitigate those level of risks differently.

Some fly depower with quick release. Some fly FB unharnessed-'Popeye arming it'. Some fly FB hooked in with harness. Some add a QR device to FB hooked in flying. Some have a AQR set up. Which is safer, safest...you probably know. Any 100% failsafe?....

Body armor is worn by some. Hopefully all wear helmets.

There are other sports with risks...some more complicated than this. It is all about mitigating risks and choices. And for each person both the choice and risk might be different...as well as the degree of mitigation.

I try to fly in most conditions(even bad) and if not using the highest level of failsafe devices(I'm not-no QR or AQR), I try to use the best kite for control, fly with the most attention, back off on the aggression .
When I become way too anxious and the challenge to control the kite and my fear overtakes my sense of fun.... I put it all away.

PS...
I am not the safest acting one to be posting this. Do not get that impression. Flying and riding in up to 40mph gust winds, doing kite jumping, and such. This is just a personal perspective of sports risk in general or relating to kiting spacifically.

4w7s - 20-12-2014 at 01:10 PM

Sorry to hear about your injury. Having a kite related injury can be traumatic and can make some people gun-shy - it's just a natural "survival" response. But if you want to continue with kiting there is nothing wrong with adjusting your philosophy about how you ride or your choice of kites.

I my experience of riding and teaching lots of people to kitesurf I have found that "confidence" can be just as important as having some skills, as a "sports psychology" issue. Even though you have skills your enjoyment might be diminished by your worries about re-injury or exacerbating an existing injury...and this is very understandable. Nobody (well, not many anyway) wants to relive pain, crippling injury, loss of income, anxiety, etc...

But if you love kiting enough you will continue one way or the other. I have flown quite a few kites, mostly LEI's on the water and snow, and more recently some foils on the snow. Even on the water it is nice to have a kite that you feel safe with - i.e. predictable, easy to depower, good wind range/gust busting, reliable safety mechanisms, etc. Some kites and control systems are better than others IMO.

I had shyed away from foils for a long time mostly because of depower issues, quirky flying traits, relaunch issues, bridle issues,etc...although I have always known there are some benefits to foils as well. Last winter I started flying the Flysurfer Peak1 kites and it was a game changer for me with respect to my sentiments toward foils. Aside from the incredible ease of use I found the kites to have good stability, good depower, good gust handling, easy relaunch, etc...You might want to give them a try. The new Peak2 has even more depower and wind range because they have added a trim strap - the Peak1 only had the sheetable bar, which is actually pretty good by itself.

If you are ever up in Michigan and want to try the Peak let me know. If you want more info I would be happy to talk to you about them.

Otherwise I hope you heal up fast and get back out with a kite as soon as possible.

soliver - 20-12-2014 at 06:21 PM

Here's where I'm at guys, I am in complete comprehension of the fact that this is an extreme sport and that there are risks involved... I could tell you that I knew that going in, but we all have a tendency to believe the lie we tell ourselves that "it won't happen to me" and I'd gotten to a point with my riding that I was confident and very well in control. That sense put me in a place where believing "it won't happen" and overconfidence had me less attentive to safety... I have an AQR, but I haven't been using it because I've told myself I could react quick enough to handle it without bring tethered to the bug. And perhaps I should have had out the 3.5m or the 4m instead of the 5.5m... Etc etc etc

But here's the thing I keep coming back to, I am fully aware of ALL the tings I could have done differently, but there are STILL a truckload of things that I have NO control of... The things that can SCREW your life up just as badly as being careless... Even the most experienced pilot can get toasted by all sorts of bad circumstances... SO... I'd like to minimize the risk associated with the things I cannot control.

I have watched the stress in my wife's face as she holds the baby in one arm and does whatever else with the other while the older kids are about doing whatever... I'm finding ways to help as best as I can in spite of immobility, but I can't deny the guilt I feel over that.

The easiest and simplest solution is to quit and sell all the gear... That by default removes ANY and all possibility of this happening again, but SHE tells me not to quit,... "I could just as easily cut my finger off while scrapbooking or get into a car accident, BUT..."

It's like I said above, since I DO LOVE this sport, if I decide to continue, I need to revamp how I interact with it... I have crossed over the fine line between passion and obsession and let it take up FAR too much mental space and screwed up my priorities... If I continue first and foremost I HAVE to tone it down on all fronts, or it will affect more of my life than simply my physical capability...

So back to minimizing risk... Take for example what we ALWAYS tell newbies: any kite will lift you, but some will do it easier than others... I know that my RIIs are not the liftiest kites but the fact is that there are others that are LESS lifty... They may not be as high performance, but if I account for how I need to revamp my thinking, performance should not be a high concern...

I like what I hear about NASA stars... I'm intrigued... But still I have no need to make any decision any time soon, but I can tell you, I WILL NOT put my family in this place again, kites or no.

That's where I'm at

Many thanks to Jeff for the call, it was great talking to you again.

Randy - 21-12-2014 at 05:17 AM

Hey Spencer - good luck with your surgery. Hope it all goes well. As you know, I've got a Nasa Star 2 and a NPW9 made by Susan. You are welcome to give them a try if you would like at some point in the future.

bigkid - 21-12-2014 at 07:17 AM

Glad to know the wife didnt leave with the kids, you got a great family. Good to hear they are on the top of your list. Heal soon.

soliver - 21-12-2014 at 05:20 PM

Thanks Randy, I may take you up on that in a couple of months :smilegrin:

ssayre - 22-12-2014 at 02:47 PM

Here's a thought for safety. Why do we always recommend depower after the 3 meter stage for people interested in board sports and not buggy? Answer: depower is more forgiving in gusts and you can maintain balance easier. If that's true than why not go directly to depower when using a buggy? In other words, in general, the right type of depower is more forgiving and easier to use than their fb counter parts. If fb was just as easy and safe to use than their would be almost no need for more expensive depowers. In my opinion, hooked in and using fb is the highest level of progression, skill, and risk, yet most start there because it's the easier and cheapest starting out. Obviously all of the above is based on the rider desiring to ride harnessed. On the flip side, a quiver of fb and remaining unhooked is one of the safest options. All I'm saying is that it seems a lot of people (myself included) go directly from the safest stage to the most dangerous and skip the largest category of kiting, that in my opinion is the most manageable way of handling power. The ns2 is an entire other category that's also an awesome way to harness wind in a manageable way that seems to be almost entirely overlooked by kiters and the kite industry. I'm not knocking fb. I think it's great if you have clean wind and you want the maximum thrill of direct power.

Demoknight - 22-12-2014 at 03:40 PM

I had two OBE's the other day within like 20 minutes of each other a couple weeks ago on my Charger. One of them was mostly because a dog off leash charged at me and I had to make an emergency adjustment in the middle of a turn not to hit the dog with the buggy or wrap it in lines. The other was a combination of hitting a sand bank and launching myself in the air, and having the kite high to bleed speed before hitting said sand bank, which kept me in the air a fraction of a second longer than my buggy. Both of them could have ended badly, but I can't help but think that neither would have happened the same way if I was flying an NS2.

Feyd - 22-12-2014 at 03:41 PM

FWIW as of snowkite season before last we have pretty much discontinued using fixed bridle trainers with our students. When we have options like 3.5m Apex 4s which handle gusts better and allow for substantial depower while at the same time taking the confusion out of shifting from a fixed bridle trainer to a depower, it just makes good sense. That said we teach everyone to use kite placement as your primary method of power management with depower being a nice secondary. This way if you get caught out beyond the mechanical depower range of your kite you have the skillset to get yourself back safely.

I guess a lot of choices of what people ride are based on region and tradition. I think many have a skewed view of what "gusty" conditions are. For example I was in Cocoa Beach and the gust factor was about 3kts and I was told it was "gusty". I had to laugh. For my part I don't see the advantage of FB beyond turn rate and raw power and here in a region where gust factor is considerable FB aren't practical and certainly not safe. When I started out I started on FB and the first time out decided there was no way in hell I would ride FB hooked in.

In the snow kite and kite surf categories FB has been abandoned. Ozone saw the writing on the wall and ended their FB production. The only hold outs are the buggy riders, many of which have started dabbling in depower fairly recently, and land boarders (though it seems they are going depow).

RedSky - 22-12-2014 at 04:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Here's a thought for safety. Why do we always recommend depower after the 3 meter stage for people interested in board sports and not buggy? Answer: depower is more forgiving in gusts and you can maintain balance easier. If that's true than why not go directly to depower when using a buggy? In other words, in general, the right type of depower is more forgiving and easier to use than their fb counter parts. If fb was just as easy and safe to use than their would be almost no need for more expensive depowers. In my opinion, hooked in and using fb is the highest level of progression, skill, and risk, yet most start there because it's the easier and cheapest starting out. Obviously all of the above is based on the rider desiring to ride harnessed. On the flip side, a quiver of fb and remaining unhooked is one of the safest options. All I'm saying is that it seems a lot of people (myself included) go directly from the safest stage to the most dangerous and skip the largest category of kiting, that in my opinion is the most manageable way of handling power. The ns2 is an entire other category that's also an awesome way to harness wind in a manageable way that seems to be almost entirely overlooked by kiters and the kite industry. I'm not knocking fb. I think it's great if you have clean wind and you want the maximum thrill of direct power.

Traditionally I suppose, depower is seen as a tool for people who want to go vertical, whereas FB is a weapon used more often than not to go horizontal. It could be that simple.
I'm not sure if FB hooked in is the highest level of progression, but skill and risk definately. You may progress better with something completely different.

ssayre - 22-12-2014 at 04:41 PM

Thanks Redsky, I may have overstated that a bit :P

soliver - 22-12-2014 at 04:51 PM

I'm giving the NS3s serious consideration... I can certainly say the thought of passing on my RIIs puts a twinge in my heart a little, I know I'll miss them if I go that route, but I can't go to something else without letting something go first.

I'm to the point now where I'm not giving as serious consideration to quitting all together as I was before, but we'll see how I feel after surgery tomorrow :barf:

If you didn't catch that I have surgery tomorrow at noon, ... Prayers and well wishes are appreciated!!

On a side note, after 7 days of my PL bug just chillin on the back of my kite mobile, my awesome wife went out and took it off my car :smilegrin:

Feyd - 22-12-2014 at 05:26 PM

Good luck tomorrow. BTW what do they have planned for you if I may ask?

RedSky - 22-12-2014 at 05:52 PM

You'll be fine tomorrow. :thumbup:

skimtwashington - 22-12-2014 at 05:52 PM

Very best wishes for a perfect healing and stronger than ever.

soliver - 22-12-2014 at 06:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

Good luck tomorrow. BTW what do they have planned for you if I may ask?

From what I understand it involves a metal plate and screws.... FWIW many of the medical professionals have commented on how I "did a really good job" of breaking it... The CT tech particularly commenting with a quite amazed expression and asking how high I fell from.

I know the procedure is by no means major, but still the thought of being under anesthesia and under the knife puts the nerves on end. My faith plays a big role in my comfort in spite of that, so for those of you who place value in that same stock, your prayers are particularly appreciated. I genuinely appreciate the thoughts and well wishes of all of you.

Gonna watch some NS2 vids now by way of Mr. Holgate :smilegrin:

Feyd - 22-12-2014 at 07:01 PM

Well I guess if you're going to do something you should do it well! :P

Sorry you gotta go in. Any time you have to be put under for someone to split your seams and tinker with you inside bits sucks and puts you on edge. But at least you're dealing with an ortho issue and not something more difficult to nail down. It's nice when plates and screws are the clear cut solution and they aren't talking soft tissue or doner bone material. Your ortho is essentially a mechanic (with the bedside manner to match usually):D and he/she will get the job done and put you all back together no worries.

The recovery will take time and it will be a while before you feel 100% but it will come. Just be sure to follow the post op procedures, kick some ass in PT and you'll be better sooner than you think.

Good luck tomorrow, and try not to worry because it will be fine.

3shot - 22-12-2014 at 07:08 PM

A few days have passed and you have had some time to reflect. Have you figured out just how high you got lofted? Not that that is relevant. Was just curious. I feel for ya bud. I've really enjoyed what little time I've flown my NS2s. My 7m just showed up today. John has some amazing videos.

Your surgery will go fine bud. Get well soon!

Proletariat - 23-12-2014 at 05:54 PM

Crap man. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Safest traction kite, IMO is the Peak. You get to depower for gusts and it never flies too fast through the window to build volatile power, but still has a decent amount of pull (but very little lift). After 2 years of depower, I can't imagine going back to FB.

Inland winds suck. My rule is to stay home for gusts > 100% of average. And I try to never push the envelope unless conditions are ideal (yeah, I'm looking at you, you spoiled beach people

.

I figure our #1 tool for safety is good judgement. The rest is too variable to be reliable.

RedSky - 23-12-2014 at 06:37 PM

I had a thought on safety...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edmqTODMZC4

soliver - 23-12-2014 at 06:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 3shot

A few days have passed and you have had some time to reflect. Have you figured out just how high you got lofted? Not that that is relevant. Was just curious. I feel for ya bud. I've really enjoyed what little time I've flown my NS2s. My 7m just showed up today. John has some amazing videos.

Your surgery will go fine bud. Get well soon!

Mmmmm... I'm guessing between 10 and 15 feet, but in all honesty I really can't say... If any of the park goers saw, they didn't stop to either help or say how high up I looked... Coulda been higher coulda been lower.

Back from surgery now and I'm gonna post about it a new thread.

@ proletariat... Thanks, Dave... We'll see you at JIBE, and we should definitely hang out more this year.

888huskers - 14-1-2015 at 09:54 PM

I just wanted to say this has been one of the most informative threads I could have ever have come across from a safety stance point. I'm currently flying static thinking of making the jump to buggy since it sounds like land boarding is nuts in gusty winds like where I live. This thread was a wake up call for me to slow down my thoughts and evaluate my approach to this change since I fly alone with no help or instruction.

It certainly makes sense now why ssayre told me to "popeye arm it" with my Twister 5.5 in a U2U recently. I feel a bit over confident flying static because I can dump to the kite killers in a heartbeat now mainly because I've gotten so used to having to bail when the wind gusts so hard here. The scary thing was I was thinking of hooking in and buying a harness since I've seen so many videos of buggy riders doing it I figured it would take the load off of one of my wrists that I've had problems with but after reading this there is no way I'm buying a harness.

The funny thing is I think it was some of your videos I stumbled across on vimeo that I was watching that even gave me the idea. It seemed like a safe thing because in all the videos you were in control but I guess it's the one you are not looking for that you have to worry about. Great thread man, sorry for your injury but this thread post is invaluable to newbies like me.

bigE123 - 15-1-2015 at 05:43 AM

Bit late to this thread but I'd like to add my thoughts / experience on the single skin side, I fly mostly NPWs which are pretty close to the Nasa stars (although I do also mix it up with foils / depower). Whilst they are deemed as a very low lift kite, they can and will lift. It's happened to me a couple of times and to be honest flying more to the edge of the wind range, fuelled with a bit of over confidence I sent my 8m straight up and as it climbed closer to the apex the wind picked up, the power increased as the kite climbed and up I went, only about four feet, completely unprepared for a loft (as like most thought they don't lift) I just went with it as the last thing I wanted was the kite collapsing in any way and dropping me. My little trip took me about 30ft across the field before slowly bringing me down.
So I suppose what I'm getting at is never under-estimate a kite of any type, either being inexperienced or over confident may or will catch you out at some point.
Kite killers: for me are a last resort, don't fly too over-powered, I've had 3 sets snap on me, flying over-powered the kite handles snatched out of my hands, the killers just stretched, then snapped leaving the kite to it's own devices. Don't get me wrong I always wear them but I am now more mindful that control is key and will now step down a kite size rather being lazy and carrying on over powered..

soliver - 15-1-2015 at 06:10 AM

Thanks guys ... I'm a good 3+ weeks out of surgery with about 5-6 more for recovery. It's been difficult but I'm doing well.

@bigE... I appreciate your input on the single skin stuff, you are really a great resource when it comes to all things NPW. I recognize that they do lift, and so long as I remember how I hurt myself, I hope I won't allow myself to become overconfident.

@888Huskers... Thanks for your words. Don't completely rule out a harness, I said the same thing 2-3 yrs ago when I was just starting out. It's not the thing itself that's unsafe, it's how you use it. I unfortunately, in my overconfidence, did not use the set up I had to its safest capacity which was a dumb move on my part. A. It was gusty so I probably shouldn't have been using it to start with B. Since I use a QR snapshackle and pulley, I should have had the quick release tethered to the buggy to make it Auto QR, but thought that was a hassle and that I could manually undo it if needed... I found out the hard way that I was wrong. (One word: overconfident) I'd say don't rule it out completely but DO recognize the safety issues and fully abide by them.

bigE123 - 15-1-2015 at 06:24 AM

:D The thing is they are much more predictable if you send it up, you can "feel" the power steadily increase rather than a snatch, you do have a bit more time to react to the power and either re-direct or haul on the brakes.

soliver - 15-1-2015 at 06:38 AM

And THAT'S what sounds so appealing... cuz broken foots is no fun... fo sho

BigE, have you seen all the coolness of the bar/depow system that steffan has developed with the NS2/3? if I can find John H's vid I'll add it... all the safeties ext. make it look uber awesome sauce. :thumbup:

ssayre - 15-1-2015 at 06:43 AM

That's exactly what I like so much about them. So far, they have given me plenty of time to hit my safety. FB has a tendency to snatch your A$s before you even realize it's happening. I have noticed most injuries occur with experienced riders, so over confidence and becoming too comfortable must be major contributors to accidents.

@bigE: Thanks for the reminder to not let your guard down. The nasa's do have a limit before they can lose their temper

Luckily they work very well at the bottom of their wind range so you don't need to push it. My 4 meter winds are the winds that scare me the most with the gusts that usually exceed it's range. I'm hoping the peak helps with that.

bigkid - 15-1-2015 at 07:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

......I have noticed most injuries occur with experienced riders, so over confidence and becoming too comfortable must be major contributors to accidents........

really?
I have no desire to hash this out or point fingers, so I will only say that its not experience, confidence, or comfort.
luck of the draw, karma, your time, it's not a mater of anything but time. You will have an OBE at some point, the question is how bad will it be.

I personally know of 8 people that have been hurt enough to go to the hospital and spend months waiting to heal before returning to work. 4 of those dont fly anymore.
Of those 8 people only 0 of them were fast enough to pull in the brakes, pull the QR, or alter the end result.

bigkid - 15-1-2015 at 08:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

......I have noticed most injuries occur with experienced riders, so over confidence and becoming too comfortable must be major contributors to accidents........

ssayre - 15-1-2015 at 08:22 AM

A freak gust doesn't care if you have experience or if your a beginner. My point is that when we become more comfortable harnessing wind, then it's a little easier to let your guard down when we shouldn't.

bigkid - 15-1-2015 at 10:36 AM

I understand.
Most of what I see isnt from letting down ones guard, but a small bit of knowledge one thinks is worthy of telling the world how it done correctly. After my accident everyone told me what I did wrong, sad part about all the expertise that was told to me was from everyone that WASN'T THERE THAT DAY. Out of the mouths of those who didnt have a clue came all the wisdom in the world.
I dont think for one moment to know it all, just the opposite. I know my limits and expect things to happen when I push the envelope. The key to all of this is to eliminate the possibilities.
Everyone says to keep the kite low to eliminate an OBE. Ever tried to complete an upwind turn? How about stopping in a buggy for a minute and putting the kite at the zenith?
No body talks about the Apexx buggies anymore, how come? They were designed with the siderails that didn't let you come out of the buggy. Good idea? Yes and No.
Do you wear a half helmet or a 3/4 or full helmet? Yes, yes, yes, no, no, no. They have good and bad points for each style.

I could go on for some time on whats good or bad about lots of things in this sport. Untill you have 1st hand knowledge on a subject you really dont know.
My biggest problem is that I have spent over $100.000.00 on buggies, boards, kites, handles, bars, lines, tires, wheels, cameras, and everything else thats kite related. Tested, picked apart, broken, altered, destroyed, redesigned, returned and thrown away more than most of you will ever see in your life.
Most of what I have found is that its all about you, the end user. Which kite is best? How about the buggy? Its not the kite or buggy, its you and your ability, your style, your expertise, your knowledge, and your desire that makes one better than another.
Same with safety. Do you wear a helmet? I don't. Why do you wear a helmet? I wont have another OBE so thats not a concern. Will someone crash into me and do me bodily harm? Thats up to you.
if I go out and push the envelope, I put on my helmet, carbon fiber chest protector, hook into my AQR and tell my wife I am going out to play. In 5 years the worst thing that has happened was 2 broken fingers from the handles ripping out of my hands when I broke both power lines on a 3.5m kite in 25mph wind while performing a 180 shotgun in the buggy.
enough for now, im sure I have pissed off everyone.

ssayre - 15-1-2015 at 11:16 AM

Thanks 888huskers, look what you've done now by reviving this thread :lol:

Jeff, I always appreciate your insight.

Personally, I take kite safety very seriously, but I face more safety hazards on a regular basis for my work than my occasional kiting. We take a risk every day we leave the house, so short of living in a bubble I try to make every effort to stay safe no matter what I'm doing. The chance of injury exists in many activities. For example, I'm playing indoor soccer and I volunteered to be goalie. Another guy on team said his wife wouldn't let him play goalie anymore due to 2 injuries and 2 surgeries. That kind of surprised me, I didn't really think of (over 40) rec league indoor soccer as being dangerous :rolleyes:

but it just goes to show you can get hurt no matter what you do.

bigkid - 15-1-2015 at 11:35 AM

Death is inevitable. Until it comes for me I will keep on pushing the sport and make sure the batteries are fresh in my invisibility suit.

BeamerBob - 15-1-2015 at 12:04 PM

Huskers I will add something about hooking in with a harness. I am lucky enough to have Ivanpah Dry Lake as my home field riding spot. Speed is a relative thing, but the wind was really off if I don't hit 40 mph every time out. I never buggied that fast before riding at a dry lakebed but that speed comes very easily with very little wind at all when you remove most of the rolling resistance. I've found that generally, I'm my most vulnerable at speeds under 10 mph. There is a calming effect on the kite to have the apparent wind streaming by the kite, which seems to stabilize it's flight. So given that, I am my most anxious in sketchy conditions when I'm launching and getting in the buggy along with a slow speed change in direction. Every time I've had an OBE, it was at speeds under 10 mph.

Regarding keeping the kite low to avoid getting lofted, that really depends on the speed and how powered up the kite is. At speeds into the 50+ mph range I might feel confident to take the kite high in a slow controlled manner so the power will back off to allow me to do an upwind turn, but not always. If I'm uneasy about taking the kite up high for a turn, my next tactic would be to keep the kite between 9 and 10:00 and see if I can make progress turning upwind. If I'm just sliding and not able to turn upwind, then I would turn the buggy almost downwind with just enough angle to keep the kite flying but not generating power. This will let me slow down enough to be able to turn upwind and turn around. Everyone has to know what their options are when things get dicey.

Regarding helmets, the only time I would go out without a helmet is if conditions have been very docile and nothing indicates that's going to change much. Winds would have to be so light that the session would be more described as a stroll rather than a ride. I'm not sure I've ever ridden a buggy on a dry lake without a helmet but maybe in a lightwind session where I'm really just trying to stay moving. The things that can come into contact with my head include but are not restricted to the ground, other riders, obstacles in the riding area, and my buggy. Even a perfect passive safety release can't protect me from all these dangers to a level I would choose not to wear a helmet. This is a choice everyone has to make for themselves.

As long as I'm doing this, I'm still in student mode. I don't think the time will ever come that I'm not looking for a way to increase my knowledge and skills. You never know when a nugget of knowledge is coming your way or who might share it.

888huskers - 15-1-2015 at 01:14 PM

@ssayre

no harm intended just throwing in my two cents as a newbie that I really appreciated the info. I think if anything it reafirmed my suspicion that I should get a small kite to learn on since my winds out here are irratic at times. I'll save the details of that discussion for another thread. The important thing is I appreciate the honesty of this thread. It's good to see the feedback on safety not only from a gear aspect but as a mindset.

@BeamerBob All good points and well taken. I'll keep them in mind as I begin my journey into kite buggying.

abkayak - 15-1-2015 at 02:24 PM

husker....do not fear the harness, but always respect the kite
hooking in is part of the natural progression...you will know when its time, when its time