Power Kite Forum - Seen this before?

Seen this before?

soliver - 23-8-2015 at 02:46 PM

I know some of the earlier PL bugs have been given the moniker "Peter Thin," but I thought this was not necessarily an issue with the newer buggies. Mine is really only about 2 and a half to 3 years old and I just noticed this:

Seems like a weird place for a crack... I can fix it but hmmmm...

Any of the more pro welders think it may be the metal mixing combo of the mild steel of the VTT rail kit on the PL stainless?

I know theres a little rust but didn't think it was that serious.

ssayre - 23-8-2015 at 03:05 PM

It almost looks like the rust on the mild steel inside put pressure on the stainless steel that it slides into. Not sure?

Windstruck - 23-8-2015 at 04:03 PM

MAJOR EDIT

Sorry to see this buddy! One thing I'm noticing from your photo is that it appears that the VTT rail tube is smaller than the stock PL tubing (maybe this is just my eyes playing tricks on me). If the fit isn't snug then maybe extra forces are placed on the outer tubes that come off the rear axle, more like point pressure as compared to distributed load. I may be completely off base on this, and like you, I'd like to hear from folks that actually work with welding torches. Bummer.

soliver - 23-8-2015 at 04:28 PM

You're making me wonder what you wrote before your edit, :lol:

It doesn't seem like a big deal and really will be easy to fix. I just thought it was weird.

The VTT rails are small enough that they have a little room to move, but I don't think this has any major adverse effects. Plus they look smaller because the cracked PL axle tube has spread open a little. I think its more a matter of rust and failure issue... I think I let the rust on the ends of the rails get a little too much and it has effected the axle, but I'm not 100% sure.

Really easy fix: A. buy stainless wire for my welder B. clean rust off all parts C. weld a bead over the crack D. grind off any excess E. apply new paint to rail ends... done

I just wanted to share because it seems a little weird and was curious if anyone had any thoughts about why this may have happened.

soliver - 23-8-2015 at 04:34 PM

Also the other advantage of having 2 buggies :smilegrin:

Windstruck - 23-8-2015 at 04:54 PM

Two buggies. I love it. And you give me (jesting) grief about lots of kites. :D

My edit: at first I though the axle tubes normally went on the inside but then I went out to the garage and looked at mine. I had originally written something about inside v outside tubing as possible reason for break.

Agree that this is likely rust weakening. Good luck!

indigo_wolf - 23-8-2015 at 05:22 PM

Best guess.....

What is galvanic corrosion? (an electrochemical process in which one metal corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical contact, in the presence of an electrolyte)

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

apply new paint to rail ends... done

Might want to put down some Loctite Extend before the repaint.

ATB,
Sam

3shot - 23-8-2015 at 05:24 PM

That's right my man! Repair and ride on!!!

soliver - 23-8-2015 at 08:37 PM

I'll have you know Steve, that the second bug was purchased for use as a tandem,... and over time became a complete second buggy... it was a slow and evolutionary process that eventually ended in... well... something pretty awesome for me :smilegrin:

Thanks Sam, thats EXACTLY what I was thinking .... electro-whosie-ma-whatsit... yea, that one... And that product looks like it may be worthwhile, ... thanks for the advise.

Jason... indeed!!!

Windstruck - 24-8-2015 at 05:51 AM

Spencer - just read Plummet's thoughts on XK. That was a very interesting read. I'm a scientist in a completely different field (more along the lines of the biological sciences) so while I have never studied physical sciences to any great extent I could none the less sort of follow along with his reasoning. Hacking the whole tube-in-a-tube set up off does make sense to me, but at the same time seems like major surgery. Agreed, however, that if the problem started on the inside then welding on the outside may be a sort of a fool's-gold temporary solution even if it makes the outside look a lot nicer for a while.

Good luck with all this! Since you have it sounds like the basic skills and equipment then maybe the amputation to prosthetic limb advice could be followed (i.e., the bolted together plates). If so, I did see merit to the 1mm plastic separation as described. Living in Hot-Lanta and "moist-lanta" is likely going to keep this problem alive and well I'm afraid even if you adopt a new maintenance plan.

soliver - 24-8-2015 at 08:24 AM

Its going to HAVE to be the temporary fix. The PL stainless is pretty thin, not so thin that its too weak, but in order to weld some stock onto it that is substantial enough to be a good and functional tab to bolt to like he is saying is not a reasonable endeavor for me. I'm going to patch it as best as I can and just be more diligent about keeping it dry and clean and if it comes down to it I will reinforce the "lug" with something else.

kiteballoon - 24-8-2015 at 10:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

I know some of the earlier PL bugs have been given the moniker "Peter Thin," but I thought this was not necessarily an issue with the newer buggies.

Think again. I bought a new PL XR and had cracking at common stress points around the footpeg within a couple dozen sessions and about 1.5 years of total ownership.

Meanwhile, pbc's old comp std buggy that was NZ built definitely flexes when you sit in it, but has held up much better than my much younger buggy.

I suspect I'll be finding and repairing more cracks, along with more or less turning everything on the buggy over as the years pass. It was something I'd hoped to avoid, which is why I bought new. I don't think I'm just unlucky or particularly hard on buggies. There is a marked difference in quality once the buggies began to be made in China.

3shot - 24-8-2015 at 10:11 AM

I thought I heard/read the PL buggy production was being moved out of China?

ssayre - 24-8-2015 at 11:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by kiteballoon

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

I know some of the earlier PL bugs have been given the moniker "Peter Thin," but I thought this was not necessarily an issue with the newer buggies.

I suspect it's only a matter of time for mine then. It gets used frequently and weighing in at 240 coupled with very bumpy ground, it's bound to happen.

Spencer it sounds like your on the right track with repair since it is so thin. Maybe a hose clamp as well to bear some to the stress?

flyguy0101 - 24-8-2015 at 11:30 AM

Spencer- I know that a standard pipe clamp would probably not be strong enough but some type of a slip on collar that you can cinch down might be the easiest repair- just thinking out loud
s

indigo_wolf - 25-8-2015 at 02:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by flyguy0101

Spencer- I know that a standard pipe clamp would probably not be strong enough but some type of a slip on collar that you can cinch down might be the easiest repair- just thinking out loud
s

Are you talking about something like a truss clamp? Hopefully just a temp fix.

ATB,
Sam

flyguy0101 - 25-8-2015 at 05:45 AM

Sam you nailed it- I am not even sure if it would need to be temporary as well looks like that one has a bolt on the back for a camera mount :thumbup:

Windstruck - 25-8-2015 at 06:26 AM

One thing to think about is if you need a simple clamp and the beautiful one Sam shows proves hard to find then you may find an inexpensive solution right in the fence isle of your local big-box hardware store (Home Depot, etc.). The galvanized parts that hold hinges for chain link fences are shaped perfectly. I suspect you'd find that the 1 5/8" standard will fit nicely. I used these to craft a camera mount pole that sticks out the back of my buggy and clamps around the rear axle. I'll post a picture a little later.

kiteballoon - 25-8-2015 at 06:54 AM

As far as I can tell the points of failure on the pl buggies would be 3 places:

1) The stub holding the footpegs on the front fork. It's not strong enough and will crack near the weld.
2) The tubes near the high stress point where the side tubes connect to the downtube. Look just to either side of the bolts and carriage.
3) As in Spencer's case, the rear stubs holding the sidetubes

I've seen buggies crack in those three places, and thinking about the design they make sense as the stress points. They should be the first things to break. What I don't know is how effective repairs and beefing up the stress points is longterm. Will my fixes give me elongated years of service, or not?

ssayre - 25-8-2015 at 07:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

One thing to think about is if you need a simple clamp and the beautiful one Sam shows proves hard to find then you may find an inexpensive solution right in the fence isle of your local big-box hardware store (Home Depot, etc.). The galvanized parts that hold hinges for chain link fences are shaped perfectly. I suspect you'd find that the 1 5/8" standard will fit nicely. I used these to craft a camera mount pole that sticks out the back of my buggy and clamps around the rear axle. I'll post a picture a little later.

Good one Steve, I love the fence hardware. I used fence clamps to secure my backrest with rubber sleeves between to keep in place and separate the metal.

Windstruck - 25-8-2015 at 08:30 AM

See? Just like that. Great minds think alike. :D

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. Use high quality carriage bolts, not the cheap galvanized ones. I broke one of those pretty quickly getting this tight enough not to allow the piece of wood to rotate on the axle. The problem became somewhat analogous to the issue Paul (Robinsonpr) was having trying to get his back axle clamp tight enough on one of Popeye's custom buggies. In my case this is a 42" long piece of redwood square dowel picked up in, yes, the fencing section of Home Depot about 20 feet away from these perfect simple, and inexpensive clamps. I believe the size was 1 5/8". It fit very snugly with some Duct Tape wrapped around the axle for friction. I wouldn't think you'd need to worry about that for your application.

Keep in mind, of course, that galvanized steel will add yet one more metal to your evil brew of galvanic goodness. Duct Tape to the rescue! :lol:

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soliver - 26-8-2015 at 05:45 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions folks... I've been busy today appeasing the Fire Marshal so I haven't been on the forums today.

My plan is currently still just simply clean, weld, paint, done... I'm looking more seriously at rust inhibitors for the rail and even the inside of the lug. But as for clamps, I appreciate the idea, but to me it just adds another piece to the equation that really isn't all that necessary. It might make it work, but it won't address the corrosion problem and as you guys have said it introduces another metal to the 2 that aren't currently friendly to one another.

When I have it all patched up I'll share some process and finished product pics.

soliver - 27-8-2015 at 05:01 AM

I have this thread also up on XK and someone made the excellent suggestion to add a little grease to the outside of the rail tube before putting it in its receiving piece on the axle to act as a moisture barrier... GENIUS!!!

New plan: Clean, weld, drill (a weep hole for moisture to escape from the inside of the axle lug), paint, grease, done.

ssayre - 27-8-2015 at 07:41 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

I have this thread also up on XK and someone made the excellent suggestion to add a little grease to the outside of the rail tube before putting it in its receiving piece on the axle to act as a moisture barrier... GENIUS!!!

New plan: Clean, weld, drill (a weep hole for moisture to escape from the inside of the axle lug), paint, grease, done.

That is a good idea but the grease could be a little messy. Seems like grease has a way of finding unwanted greased clothing or items. I thought about this and thought it could be useful to use a bike inner tube or similar rubber product and hose clamp over the connection. This would eliminate the need for grease. However, if you frequently take it apart that wouldn't work, but I was thinking you leave your bug together for transport like I do.

soliver - 27-8-2015 at 11:00 AM

I really don't think I have room between the rail tubes and the lug to put any kind of membrane in there, thats why the grease seemed like such a good idea. Hopefully I won't have as much trouble drilling it as you did either. I AM planning to use my drill press though, and I don't need to be exact since they are just weep holes for moisture to escape.

ssayre - 27-8-2015 at 11:06 AM

not between them OVER both of them and clamps for water tight

Windstruck - 27-8-2015 at 11:19 AM

Sean - the whole between them discussion likely came out in part to a suggestion I made. As you likely saw on XK there was a superb description of the interactions of the different metals and how they potentially exacerbated the oxidation problems Spencer was suffering from. I thought from his original photos that there was a tiny gap between the VTT rail and the larger SS tube coming off his axle, so I had suggested putting a membrane between the two to separate the two types of metal. It's a little crude, but I envisioned sliding a, err, raincoat over the VTT rails before sliding it into the SS tube. The grease solution sounds better to me too (on all fronts). :evil:

indigo_wolf - 27-8-2015 at 11:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

There is an entire product category call Rust Inhibitors and not all of them are grease based.

Plenty of supplies to be co-opted from the marine, gun, automotive industries.

ATB,
Sam

ssayre - 27-8-2015 at 01:10 PM

I'm sure Spencer has the repair well in hand but it's still fun obsessing over every detail.

indigo_wolf - 27-8-2015 at 01:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I'm sure Spencer has the repair well in hand but it's still fun obsessing over every detail.

Months from winter and temps still in the 80s-90s and I am still obsessing over cat shelter and feed station modifications. :embarrased:

ATB,
Sam

soliver - 27-8-2015 at 03:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

not between them OVER both of them and clamps for water tight

OK,.. now I understand!!!.... I think it may be overkill, but it is a good idea. ... now you got me thinking along those lines... HMMMMMMMM...

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I'm sure Spencer has the repair well in hand but it's still fun obsessing over every detail.

Not yet, I bought just about everything I need today. I just hope I can stay awake long enough to go out and futz with it later tonight.

soliver - 28-8-2015 at 04:29 PM

I started cleaning off the rust last night. I bought a 3/4" dia wire brush to put on the end of a drill for the inside of the Axle lugs:

Before:

After:

And the cracked one too:

I thought I had a wire brush to go on my angle grinder to do the outside, but I didn't. So I ended up using a piece of sandpaper and then the drill brush as well.

Before: (not a great pic, but you can make out the rust)

And complete with newly drilled weep holes (Sorry Sean, it was super easy), the after:

Tonight I plan to finish getting the rust off of the rail ends and maybe welding the crack.

ssayre - 29-8-2015 at 01:57 AM

Looks great so far Spencer.

I think my problem initially was just a dull bit. Once I got a new bit and different type it went smooth.

Windstruck - 29-8-2015 at 04:59 AM

That's some fine looking work Spencer. It's fun to see the great photos. It's like I'm drinking beer in your garage while YOU work! :lol:

3shot - 29-8-2015 at 09:25 PM

Now that's funny Steve!

soliver - 6-9-2015 at 10:07 PM

Here's the latest on the repair. I've finished it all up so here are the process pics. I welded up the lug, but since I am shamefully embarrassed at the poor quality of my welds since its been a while, you will only get to see it after its been ground clean.

Unfortunately there was a lot of burn through meaning a lot of ugliness on the interior of the tube.

So I went back to the big box to pick up a grinder for the drill to take care of the inside of the Lug tubing.

From there I cleaned up the ends of the rails and repainted them,

and then got busy with the grease inside the lugs.

And now everything is back to normal:

I had a super crappy wind session on Saturday (I mean super Lame-o). So when I got it off the car, I took the axle off to che things out. I found that the weld inside the Lug had rubbed some of the paint off. So being attentive to those "markers" I ground down those spots on the rails and to make them fit together better.