Pablo placed this diagram and info on a crossover bar mod for brake steering on big larger fixed-bridle foils with bars. The topic is worth it's own
thread.
Here's more info he e-mailed to me:
"Black line is the bar
Blue lines are the main power leaders coming off the bar ends, should be
around 1/2m long
Red line is tied to the right power line leader, then runs through a pulley
on the left side of the bar, then goes up and becomes the left brake line
leader.
Yellow line is tied to the left power line leader, then runs through a
pulley on the right side of the bar, then goes up and becomes the right
brake line leader.
Green line, tie a line from the end of one brake line leader to the other,
make sure it has at least 4-6 inches of slack so when you turn the bar it
doesn't get pulled tight. Have a pulley on this line that can travel from
one brake line to the other on this new line you've attached. from the
pulley put another line that goes through the centre of the bar to your
safety.
It'll take a bit of trial and error to get it set up just perfect, but once
you do it's well worth it. I've had every single person who's tried my 9m
Buster on this setup say that it's the best bar setup they've ever tried.
I like it so that when you're at neutural with the bar there's just a bit of
slack on the brake lines, this will let you do some smaller turns to adjust
the angle of the kite when on long runs without applying the brakes. I end
up with about 2" of travel at the bar ends before the brakes start kicking
in. Then when you crank hard on the bar, say turning left, the right power
line goes out, this pulls in on the left brake line, you're also pulling in
on the left pulley as well, this gives you somewhere between 2-3 times the
brake travel, so for every 1" of power line pulled in on the left, you get
2-3 " of brake line pulled in on the left. The slack on the cross over line
on the safety is important as well, if this is tight it'll affect the kite
handling, Trial and error here, make one up and adjust it until it's just
long enough to allow full turning without getting pulled tight. The pulley
is key here as well, without the pulley on the safety line the safety will
end up pulling the brake on one side when turning tight.
The simple version I use on smaller kites that don't need a lot of brake in
the turns is simply extending the power line leaders, then putting a single
brake line through the bar, putting a pulley on the end of the safety line,
then making up a short leader that hooks up to one brake line, through the
pulley, then back to the other brake line. This will allow full turning
without having one brake line pulled tight while still giving you effective
brakes/safety."
krumly
Pablo - 4-2-2007 at 10:53 AM
Lovely wife hosted the pic online
Bladerunner - 4-2-2007 at 01:32 PM
The set-up is working well for me on my 7m Bullet. At 1st I didn't feel it was as responsive but now I'm more familiar with the bar that has improved
as well. I think the X over bar will stay on this kite!
I find it of GREAT value to have an old school static loop ( with Q.R. ) on my bar. I can hook in and still pull the bar enough to take full advantage
of the X over brake. A nice relaxing feel.
I haven't tried the set-up on my smaller kites yet. I know when I started off with my bullet on a standard 4 line it was a poor choice. I intend to
try the new bar on the 4.5. If we ever get enough wind to pull it out again. Seems it's been a while !
My fault, for falling in love with a 3m Brooza.WolfWolfee - 10-2-2007 at 05:11 PM
a lot easier to set up a handle pulley system. This does work but does take a little fine tuning.
Really does make a difference on anything above 5m.
Nice post PabloKiteboarder2B - 12-4-2007 at 03:47 PM
Hey Pablo or Snowbird, would you post a pic of crossover setup please? I am about to try it and want to see what size pulleys and line you are using,
how you mounted it (for curiousity sake), and what size your hook-in loop is. ANy pics posted is appreciated.Kiteboarder2B - 12-4-2007 at 03:48 PM
And while we are at it, would mind throwing your handle crossover setup wolf?Bladerunner - 12-4-2007 at 05:12 PM
Here you go.
Kiteboarder2B - 12-4-2007 at 06:06 PM
Fantastic! I always have been a visual person. Thanks alot. Will let you know how it works out for meacampbell - 13-4-2007 at 07:41 AM
I flew my PL Reactor 4.9 on a rig like this. Really works well.
Big mistake I made was using too heavy a line. I used sheathed spectra dingy line from the local West marine. The brake coss-overs sagged a bit
under their own weight, making them clumsy and the knots were so big they could snag on each other when the rig moved.
When I re-do it with some smaller leader line, I know it will be a big improvement. Then I'll hhook in with the bug.
I used a Flexifoil Extrem bar and used the existing brake line leaders & pulley. I shortened the brake leaders with a couple of figure-eight
knots.
Small Ronstan pulleys from West Marine worked well.powerzone - 13-4-2007 at 12:26 PM
not to poo-poo the ideas brought forth here, .....but, if the point of flying a fixed bridle kite off a bar is to simulate a sheeting system, then no
bar will work. fixed bridle kites can not change their angle of attack, thats why they are not sheetable / depowerable as fixed. also, thats a big
reason why fixed bridle kites drop you like a rock when jumping, no AOA adjustment.
that being said, if the point is to improve turning and decrease input forces, then rock on!Kiteboarder2B - 13-4-2007 at 12:46 PM
You hit the head on the nail powerzone.
This is meant to increase turning with less input on the bar. By no means to replace a depwoerable steup. Putting the finishing touches on today and
will see how well it works.action jackson - 13-4-2007 at 01:51 PM
Looks like you will be flying 1m imp tommarrow at ivanpah, some serious wind coming your way..........ajPablo - 13-4-2007 at 04:22 PM
Right on the head, most larger fixed bridal kites need a fair bit of brake to get them turned around, it's the main reason they get such bad reviews
when flying on a bar. ATB'ers like the bar to have a free hand for board off tricks and such. So it seemed relevant to have a bar setup that would
allow the kite to turn sharply while being on a bar.
As for fixed bridal kites dropping you, I've gotten decent float out of my 7.5m and 9m foils, the 13m has a stupid amount of float, just need to start
redirecting the kite nice and early, like when you leave the ground.B-Roc - 13-4-2007 at 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablo
the 13m has a stupid amount of float, .
I had to reread this then verify based on your signature. A 13m fixed bridle kite :wow: That's big:oBladerunner - 13-4-2007 at 06:31 PM
The "13 cent" is somewhat famous around here. It's a beast ! I don't even think Pab's even has pulley handles on it. It scares me :wow:
The Cross over bar isn't meant to mock depower. It DOES add adjustable braking. Without it I find foils are pigs on a bar. No effective braking. With
it I can do a long powered, no brake turn or crank the bar and loop the kite with max break and ease. I like riding on the bar. Especially standing
up. It lets you run with one hand and it frees me from those Gawd awfull kite killers ! + I learned on a bar so it feels more natural to me.
It may not be for everyone ( Pab's has stuck with handles ) but if you have a bar kicking around it's cheap and easy to give it a try.
Although I'm not all that qualified I think the key to jumping with a fixed bridle is to keep it flying. The blades and such may well be big air kites
but I don't think that any fixed bridle can compete with depower ( flysurfer, ozone, P.L. and such ) for float + safety.
I think that most bridles on fixed bridle kites can be RE-worked and set up with depower. That is completely different and FAR more complicated. I
haven't heard of how they work after re-strung from anyone though ?Pablo - 13-4-2007 at 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by B-Roc
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablo
the 13m has a stupid amount of float, .
I had to reread this then verify based on your signature. A 13m fixed bridle kite :wow: That's big:o
Yup, often reffered to the big yellow bus up these ways, proper name, 13m Century. I usually ride it in anywhere from 4mph up to about 14mph max. By
6mph she's pulling like a bus, by 8mph I can get some serious air with it. Currently I'm flying it on a version of JEllis's famous pulley handles. I
like to fly my 9m Buster I on the pulley bar, nice combo for the ATB's and just works really well with the Busters. I sold the bar to a buddy though
and just haven't gotten around to making up another one.
The 13m's been well loved, but probably will be up for sale soon, once my 15.4m Combat gets here.:evil:Kiteboarder2B - 13-4-2007 at 09:41 PM
Well I tried out the crossover setup on my 5.5 PKD Buster and it was a total blast! I love the feeling of a bar but am not keen on depower as I like
control, as in when I want to be hooked in or not. The crossover setup offers the best of both worlds (bar and handles). I have always flown handles
but have to admit I am very impressed with the control in turning this setup offers. It's by no means a replacement for de-power or handles,but for
those who like to decide when to hook in and are looking for a handles and de-power alternative (again,talking about turning ablility here), look no
further.
Kudos to pablo for such a fine rigging setup. Now if I could only see some handle pulley setups...........Pablo - 14-4-2007 at 08:27 AM
The thing I like about the crossover bar is that it doesn't take away the kites low wind performance, so it'll still fly in whatever low wind. To be
honest with you though, I didn't invent it. I got the design from a mad hatter overseas.Kiteboarder2B - 14-4-2007 at 10:46 AM
Well it takes an honest guy to give the credit to some guy you met some time ago and dont even remember his name. I was flying my 5.5 buster in 3-4
mph winds yesterday after the winds died down and was suprised at how well the kite flew in low winds on this setup.
I was taking a look at that handle pulley setup, and pardon my ignorance, but I have a question for it as well. Is the strop that runs between the
handles fixed or does it slide through the top of the handle?
Thanks again for the setup pablo, I am loving it.Bladerunner - 14-4-2007 at 11:29 AM
15.4m :wow: Fixed bridle :o that has to = 2
about 21m lei :?:
On LAND :!:
Look out Vancouver! The big yellow bus is leaving and a Freight Train is moving in ! :cool2:
Ewww ! I'm scared already :smug:
Something I intend to prove to myself next time out cruising on the bay is that when hooked in I should be able to use my free hand to tweek my safety
line to add brake / second gear by pulling back in the window ?B-Roc - 14-4-2007 at 05:10 PM
I thought it was going to be a crossover type setup but it doesn't appear to be. Right brake is on a pulley fastened to the right power line, how
does the pulley make a difference in that case? The power leader must be fixed in place with knot inside the handle so how much through can that
really add to the brakes??
I might have to put my blade on a crossover bar. Seems simple enough but I do like handles. How much fiddling went in to determining where to put
the lower pulley in order to control how much brake is applied?Kiteboarder2B - 14-4-2007 at 06:10 PM
not much at all b-roc. just tie them as close to the power leader as you can. Make sure your brake lines are underneath your power lines. I like the
setup so much I am going to put it on my other bar too.
I setup a pair of handles on a pulleys today like the attachment above. On had a couple of min to fly it and as my brakes were REALLY slack I can't
give to much opinon, but it did however still manage to take tension (though not much) on my brake lines with out having to point the top of my
handles at the kite. Will try again tommorow with tighter brake lines if I find the time.acampbell - 14-4-2007 at 06:25 PM
Look at what will happen when you put on the brakes. It is a classic block and tackle system with increased purchase. It is like power steering.
Your brake inputs are amplified, the amount of which is determined by where you put the brake line lead on the series of knots on the power line
ledaer. Movig it forward makes the triangle larger and the movement of the hypotenuse (brake line) greater.
Very clever, mechanically. But I have always had enough throw in my wrists to spin a kite. Maybe I should try it :-)krumly - 14-4-2007 at 11:12 PM
The pulley handles will increase the throw of your brake movements at the expense of larger forces at the brake end of the handle.
By the look of the pic and where the brake line is ending on the power line, you'd be about at 1:1 when the brakes are totally out (off) and 1:2 with
the brakes totally in (any additional throw at the handle would take in double the brake line but the load at the barke handle end is diuble the
brakeline tension). But there would also be a commensurate decrease in the power line tension.
I'd try them, but I've often had times wrestling the brakes in on an overpowered kites from 3.5 -7 M where the last thing I wanted was more force on
the brake end of the handles. Maybe I need to build up my hand and wrist strength...
Pablo, think the set-up would snap Flexifoil long handles? Would aluminum be better?
krumlyKiteboarder2B - 15-4-2007 at 01:05 AM
Well thanks to a tip from corey, whenever I have trouble landing when I am overpowered I fly to edge and try to land normally. If that fails then I
fly to edge again, if necessary, and I put both handles together while stretching my freehand out to grab a handful of brake line and pulling in, thus
rendering the kite a flapping rag/sheet in the wind. It may luff and take it's time getting down, spin around once or twice,but it will and safely.
As corey expained it to me, you are basically doing the same thing kite killers do without relinquishing the control of the kite to something else. If
this fails, then just let go (assuming you are clear downwind), instead of now trying to get kite killers off. Tried it today with the handle/pulley
setup and had no problems.
I think this pulley setup will be invaluable riding toeside on a landboard underpowered, as working the handles over your shoulder can be awkward.
Increased brake input with less wrist movement would definitely be a bonus.
Also if you are the type that likes to fly all power lines with lots of slack in the brakes, then this is a nice setup as you can leave the lines
really slack but still use them when you want to without having to point the top of the handle at the kite.
depower fixed bridles
powerzone - 15-4-2007 at 12:46 PM
[Snowbird] : "I think that most bridles on fixed bridle kites can be RE-worked and set up with depower. That is completely different and FAR more
complicated. I haven't heard of how they work after re-strung from anyone though ? "
you're right snowbird, the bridles can be RE-worked.
the kites i've modded from fixed bridle to de-powerable dynamic bridles work as good on the low end, better on the top end (of course), and overall
much funner. the sheeting bar can be swapped out for handles or regular 2-line bar any time.
most recently, I modded an Ozone Little Devil 7.5m to sheetable depower and we've taken that kite out in 22mph winds. very safe, very stable, very
fun. great floaty jumps, just pull the bar in and enjoy the ride.
with a pulley/mixer system, the kite is steered by pulling progressively on the A,B,C,D lines. therefore the whole side of the kite is stalled to
steer not just the brake bridles. this will improve the turning radius compared to a non-sheetable bar.
U2U me for more info.....Bladerunner - 15-4-2007 at 03:30 PM
Thanks Powerzone !
I'm aware of the way to mod my existing fixed bridles. I also feel that depower is a better way to go but I think I'll keep them as they are for now.
For Depower on land I have my P.L. + Phsyco 2 and will probably look for something similar for bigger winds.
Presently I'm finding the 7, 4.5 and 3 combination get me out on all but the lowest wind days. The 7 bullet kicks in pretty early with my low weight.
I'm getting very familiar with them and think that familiarity is key at my stage. I need to know my kites so I can work on my riding skills and feel
I'm at a good spot that way right now. It's a nice feeling, being happy and familiar with your Quiver ! Looking forward to getting depower worked out
on the phsyco though.
Seems we have a 15.4m Combat coming to town that should make the super low winds entertaining around here. :duh:
By the way . The handles you added when you did the FDS upgrade are the Cherry on the cake ! Still haven't had wind to fly / drop it yet to try the
FDS but those handles came in SO handy when trying to reverse launch the other day. SWEET ! Thanks again ! :cool2:Pablo - 15-4-2007 at 03:36 PM
First off, I know the fellow who designed the bar quite well, but out of respect for his time I figured I'd keep quite about who it is and answer as
many questions I can myself. I ask him when I get stumped. The guy's a genious, he knows who he is and he knows that I appreciate his efforts. That is
enough.
As for the handles, anyone who would rather fly off straight handles has never flown a large foil. Something in the 7m and smaller range isn't bad,
but for something like my 13m Cent, using the proper size handles in a buggy causes interference with stuff like, oh say the ground, rear tires, axle,
buggy, pot belly. By using the pulley handles, you can run average lenght handles instead of the uber long ones. The force to apply them is almost the
same, you're either fighting more force with the pulley, or more force with the long handles. I also find with the big kites that my hands never stay
on the top of the handles, usually keep hooked in to a snatch block/QR setup, hands stay under the flying lines, when I turn the kite I start by going
all the way to the lock on the strop, then slide my hand down the handle and pull hard on the brake end of the handle. Quite often I end up with one
handle swinging in the wind and one hand on the other handle, free hand is holding on to the upwind siderail of the buggy. Set the kite so it's
turning real slowly towards the ground and use the brake to do the fine steering.
Why the 15.4m? Well, I know a fellow that has a 16m foil that I'm determined to keep up with in low winds, hoping to pass him one of these days. Of
course having the gear and having the ability are two seperate things.Kiteboarder2B - 15-4-2007 at 11:15 PM
Well Pablo, please pass on my thanks and gratitude to that fellow for sharing with you such a neat setup. It's very easy to get going and easily could
of been a killer gem of a secret to keep to himself but instead he shared it with you to pass along to others looking for new/exciting ways to fly. So
please offer my thanks. I am so pleased with the results I have setup my smaller bar to crossover too.
JoeBladerunner - 16-4-2007 at 06:44 AM
Quote:
I am so pleased with the results I have setup my smaller bar to crossover too.
Joe
Please let me know how that works out. I have a smaller bar I was thinkng of trying on the 3m. If for no other reason, I found people learn a lot
easier on a bar and I usually pass off the 3 for that. I loved the bar on my old 3m JoJo but it was 3 line so no effective brake control !!!Taper123 - 18-4-2007 at 06:27 AM
I picked up some pulleys to try out this on my 8m kite. The kite does respond better with the brakes for turning, and this should do the trick with a
bar.
Yes... you can re-bridle a fixed bridle kite for depower, but not always with the results you want. The profiles and design of the kite play a big
part of this.. or at least that's what I'm told.Kiteboarder2B - 18-4-2007 at 12:14 PM
I tried the crossover on my bar for my smaller kites a few days ago and it works well. I can still turn the little devil several times on a wingtip.
Very impressive with a smaller kite actually. Flew a Litle Devil 3.0 and 2.1 and a SkyTiger 26 and all did very well, even suprisingly enough the
SKyTiger (my first time flying one)
One side note though, definitely wear some gloves as your hands will occassionally rub against the bottom of the pulley or the rope holding it on, and
also occassionally the brake leaders will graze the top of your hand, but still wasnt too uncomfortable without gloves for me to fly.Bladerunner - 18-4-2007 at 01:58 PM
Thanks K2B,
I think I'll try the setup with my 3 and an extra ( small ) bar I have ! Then I'll see if the 4.5 works best on the smaller or larger bar.Pablo - 18-4-2007 at 09:24 PM
My experience with depowering a fixed bridal kite is that although it will probably work out ok, you end up losing a fair bit of the low wind ability
of the kite.krumly - 19-4-2007 at 11:55 AM
I've used and abused my Concept Air Freestyle 3.5m foil quite a bit to play with depower rigs. It's a low/mid aspect foil kind of like a Bullet or
LD, but comes with A's, B's, and C's each grouped to their own secondaries so re-rigging is easy. I don't think it has much if any reflex in the foil,
so it's not particularly autostable. But like a LD, it rarely overflies the zenith and is very recoverable.
On UDS II rig, handles or bar: Needs more wind than when used as fixed bridle on handles. But the UDS II on handles comes down darn close, and the
finesse in turns and ability to adjust for gusts is amazing.
The UDS II with a bar definitely needs more wind. Part of this may be due to the change in foil shape vs a fixed bridle as the camber and AOA change,
but I think on this small kite it is mostly do to the extra weight of all the rigging. UDS II is very smooth, progressive (works great on VioKites
too...).
Wing Warp/Ozone frenzy type rig on handles or bar: One less pulley stage makes it more bang on/bang off than UDS II. It still gives a decent amount
of depower. On this kite, the AB's need to be combined on the front and the C on the middle pulley. Putting the A's alone on the front and the BC's
on the pulley stinks - the kite creases in front of the B's.
I just tested a variation on the crossover bar in light winds, static (my field was deep and narrow) on a fixed bridle Kitesurfer XXL 7+m (classic
Robert Graham kite). I added another pair of pulleys and a long (15" throw depower line through the bar to my Wichard shackle and spreader bar. In
this form your arms carry the load. Can be altered to have the depower rope through a Harken cam cleat and fairlead for tensioning or releasing the
brakes by hand, and then you's use a fixed bar harness loop with safety like Snowbird.
Kite brakes on both sides when you let the bar out, brakes on either side when you turn the bar, with proportionately more braking as the bar is
closer to you. Also has a safety leash ala Pablo's if in distress or to help reverse launch the kite. Kite turned well on a 50 cm bar. I'll lay it
out and get some pics this weekend.
krumlyKiteboarder2B - 19-4-2007 at 02:02 PM
nice krumly, I was going to try some variations of my own on the crossover setup today or tommorow. This thread is morphing into something very
interesting indeed. Looking forward to your photos krumly. will post mine soon.krumly - 19-4-2007 at 02:39 PM
Probably the most through site on depower bridle and rig modifications for foil. Go through it carefully and you'll find what you need for UDSII type
and WingWarp/Frenzy type rigs:
(I'm not to keen on the "Harness Attached Killers" mod - the larksheads from the killer strop pull the brake lines right through the stake loops.
This needs some work, or let the killer strop outside the loops, but then the whole mess hangs low and you can step right through it...).
More good stuff on crossover bars (go to the "Accesories" link:
His Spider Bar would looks like the ultimate way to get crossover, safety and depower and while transferring all the load to your harness. It just
looks like it's got a little too much custom machining and little expensive bearings that would seize up or wear leaders out in a hurry.
krumly
Another crossover option - schematic
krumly - 19-4-2007 at 05:04 PM
Attached is a schematic of the crossover bar I tried on my Kitesurfer XXL fixed bridle foil.
Sorry for using an attachment, but I'm not familiar with serving photos from another site. I'll figure that out soon.
krumly
Another crossover option - full pic
krumly - 19-4-2007 at 05:16 PM
Here is the setup laid out on the floor with the bar in (brakes out).
The "depower" line is 1/4" Amsteel, the leaders are 1/*' Amsteel. The pulleys and brakeline are left from my VioKite mod - I usually use Ronstan
KiteBocks.
My thinking is if you want to add a QR fixed harness line to the bar, you could run the depower line through the Harken Camatic cleat and fairlead,
using a ball below the bar as a handle to adjust it manually. DOn't get automatic braking with bar release, but it does move the front line forces to
your harness instead of your arms. I haven'ttested the set-up this way yet, so use caution.
krumly
Another crossover option - QR Shackle
krumly - 19-4-2007 at 05:35 PM
OK, this is it and I'll leave everyone alone.
Final attached pic is of my modifed Wichard QR shackle. I use these shackle and thimbles on almost all my kites now.
Amazing bar throw - it's more compact than even a small chicken loop. And you can spin the leash, though you have to help it. Very helpful with all
the line on this bar set-up.
Its basically a clone of the Chicken Release, though I've seen many others very similar.
I use a Loos ss continous oval, heavy sailmakers thimble - rigid, and big radii for clean release and minimal wear at the shackle bail. 3/16" or 1/4"
Amsteel depower lines spliced around the thimble with a Brummel Splice:
This splice won't slip loose if you don't stitch it. Dave Culp pointed that out on Instructables a while back.
krumly
Kiteboarder2B - 19-4-2007 at 05:46 PM
Hey krumly, so that bar mod is in conjunction with a depower mod for your fixed bridal foil???
Also, did you get a good look at the Trucknut crossover setup said designed for gunner 221? It looks like he has tied both brake lines together with a
couple of feet of line and then ran that through his safety leash and 2 O-rings that are dead tied to the power leaders? Looks like he also tied the
power leaders to the leash also. Seems like a lot of line out in front of your before you are even connected to the kite, but also free's up the bar
for room.
Looks like it seems a little less responsive and like less bar pressure (if that makes sense here) with the crossover so far away from the actual
turning of the bar. Would that be right?Pablo - 19-4-2007 at 05:54 PM
Looking at Krumly's design, looks very similar to the setup I use, but with the option to apply the brakes with the kite going straight.Kiteboarder2B - 19-4-2007 at 06:03 PM
No No krumly, keep it coming!krumly - 20-4-2007 at 06:56 AM
Pablo is right - the extra pulley stage in my setup allows for the kite to brake when the bar is released. I like this in the gusty inland winds we
have around here - it lets me set the kite up to hit the zenith on low winds, but still apply brake to the whole kite to drop it back if it starts to
overfly in a gust.
A turn on the bar also applies brakes to the side your pulling in on and releases brake to the side your letting out on. The more the bar is pulled in
toward you, the proportionately LESS brake input is applied, same as on the Gunner 221 set-up from the Kiting Cobbler website.
I tried the Gunner 221 set-up. It is Pablo's set-up that also adds brake to the whole kite when the bar is pulled in. I found moving the pulleys from
the bar ends (as in Pablo's rig) to further down the front leaders (which is what gives you the ability to sheet in/out and a safety on the Gunner 221
rig) gave less advantage and proportional change in brake input as you move the bar in and out because line tension drew the pulleys so close together
it was like flying with a 10"- 12" wide bar.
The solution seemed obvious at first. Slide everything back down to the bar (like Pablo's rig), use the depower line and center ring to your harness
(like the Gunner 221 rig) and add a rear line safety leash (like Pablo's rig). Problem is you now have minimal change of the brake line length when
sheeting the bar in or out - with a 14"-15" bar throw, it was enough to apply brakes to the whole kite as a tweak, but not enough to really brake the
kite to land it or reverse fly.
I started playing with some other ideas on paper and came up with my current layout. It has a lot of string, but it seems to work well on my 3.5 m
and 7.1m foils. It is for fixed bridle kites - there is no pulley bridle set-up up at the kite. I use UDS II or WingWarp/Frenzy type pulley set-ups
at the kite with a standard depower bar or handles for my depower foils.
Having just returned from a few days of consistent coastal winds on the Outer Banks, I'm really jealous of folks who kite on the coasts or the playa.
In our gusty crap, I'm liking my VioKite Proteus with UDSII and my PL GII, but I still love playing with fixed bridle foils. There were a few times
snow kiting on lakes this winter where the winds were superlight. Guys are trying to get their 16 m bows or big C's up, but the wing loading is still
too high. I take out the old .5 oz Icarex Kitesurfer on handles, work the kite, and cruise off. Not fast, but moving while they're packing up.
krumlyKiteboarder2B - 20-4-2007 at 03:18 PM
ok, I see what's happening in your setup. So when yu push the bar out, it puts slack in both brake lines and when you pull the bar in it puts tension
on the brakes, right? So then it's de-power in the sense of it's on-or-off, no adjustment in the angle of attack. very clever, will have to try it
out, but with my own touch, of course:frog:Kiteboarder2B - 20-4-2007 at 03:19 PM
sorry, meant bbar in powered up and bar out slack in brake lines:ticking:krumly - 20-4-2007 at 05:10 PM
K2B -
Bar Out = brakes on (tight). Bar In = brakes off (slack). I realize my sketch showed the chicken loop close to the bar in both modes, which is
wrong. I cleaned up the sketch and made some notes which might make it clearer (see attachment).
In really light winds, the little extra weight of this rig can drop the brakes more than if you were just on handles.
krumly
Bladerunner - 21-4-2007 at 09:47 AM
I may be missing something here but I am finding that most times I want to apply brake to pull back I am already in my static loop ( strop ) and have
a ( wonderfully ) free hand to tweek the brake when needed. I already find that all the extra line swinging on the pulley makes line tangle a minor
issue . More pulleys might mean more agro to accomplish something I can do manually now ? Also when I let go of my bar it doesn't usually run away
very far so I have no trouble with fast recovery.
I see that the plan works just not yet sold on trying it. Let us know how it works for you.whitkite - 21-4-2007 at 09:49 AM
well what can i say, what a great set-up. I had made a copy of a PKD twister bar set-up but was not happy with the turning ability of my foils on it.
I have been looking all over the net for a solution, and it now looks like i've found one.
always have used handles, on a Ronstan Pulley, and as we all know pulleys and sand/salt don't mix too well (when used to take the total pulling force
on the power lines). So i want to switch over to a bar system.
It's now 2.45am and i have just finished making this rig, how simple and easy!!! it took a whole 15 mins!
Now this fan-bloody-tastic set-up has found its way over to Australia!!
Well done, please pass on my thanks to the undisclosed inventer. I will be adding this set-up to my web site as i think everyone i know who flys will
be interested also.whitkite - 22-4-2007 at 04:39 AM
Well i made a few small adjustments to the set-up made early this morning while on the beach flying my 5.5m Brooza, and this set-up really works well,
exactly what i had been looking for.
I'd like to include this bar arrangement/set-up on my web site, do i need permission?
thanks all who have contributed to this thread, posted comments, and to the original designer.
Next i will be setting up my 7m + 12.5m Pansh kites in the same way.
I had been flying my 7m Pansh Blaze using a Simple bar with standard handles attached to the leader attachment points of the bar via the strop
attachment points, giving the effect of a bar with the ability to use the brakes on the handles in the normal fashion. This was clumsy but did work,
but now i have the best solution to solve slow turning larger foils, and magicly transform them into very usable kites.
Thank you.Bladerunner - 22-4-2007 at 08:09 AM
Put together a small bar for pretty much free today . I had all the bits and peices laying around. I'll put it on the 3m brooza and see how it works
on small kites. I hope it does. I think I prefer running on a bar even in the buggy. + my old 3 was on a bar and I find beginers take better to one at
1st.
Soon as we get wind I'll hook it up and have a go ! Doesn't look like that's today .
1st kite I tried this set-up on was a 9m buster. Not sure about Pansh but I agree Busters like it !Pablo - 22-4-2007 at 11:31 AM
Whitkite,
Go ahead, I know the guys who designed it have no commercial plans for it. To be honest, this idea ended up on the cutting room floor. I got it to
squeeze a little more out of my 9m Buster I. Apparently there's a way to get the same kite to behave well and just start hitting the sweet spot in
20mph winds. I'm going to have to wait for them to share that one though.
So feel free to share the crossover bar, really it's not that new of an idea, just a simple way to pull it off.Kiteboarder2B - 22-4-2007 at 06:11 PM
Sbowbird, after much consideration I have decided to scrap my samllest bar and turn my largest bar into my smallest bar. Even with a smaller kite,
because you are flying it in high winds usually, there is still about just of much force at work going through the lines and the smaller bar provides
less leverage. So if you go to a smaller bar for a smaller kite, I would say use a bar that is noramlly for a larger kite, and so-on all the way up.
So I would use a bar for a 4-5m for a 2-3m crossover setup.
As soon as I get a day off i will be fiddling with different variations. i thing I know for sure is I am going to go with the largest pulleys
possible, as this creates less of an extreme angle for the line to work through, and also less movement/pull needed to go the same distance. Also
going to try and compound the pulley system to get more line travel for less bar input needed
I have also made a "handle" for the brake lines,basically tying a piece of line from the front of the brake leader back to itself close to the bar. I
piece of vinyl tubing makes it hold a nice "u"shape too.whitkite - 21-5-2007 at 06:49 AM
now i have been using this crossover bar on my 5.5m brooza, and my 7m pansh blaze, for some time (i have left a bar attached to both kites since
making them) i have found that this system makes these kites react much faster and adds lots of speed to turning these foils, however i was not happy
with the way my 4m buster went on this bar system, and found switching back to handles gave me about the same benefit as the bar did on the larger
foils.
i would not really want to try using it on my even smaller kites or my Higher aspect kites just yet. i love the extra power i can get from my century
by applying a little brake on both sides.Bladerunner - 21-5-2007 at 09:07 PM
The bar seems to be working pretty good on the 3m Brooza. The brakes took some fine tuning but work well now. I'm not sure the size of bar but it is
pretty short. From my old 9m airush. I find I have no problem tweeking the brakes together to pull back when hooked in. It's not usually a problem
flying one handed and unhooked to do the same. I'm going to put the 4.5 bullet on a bar as well and see if I like it as a standard set-up for all my
kites . I definately feel more secure and controlled when getting lifted with a bar and static loop than handles and a strop.
