Power Kite Forum

No line flying

Fflexikite - 7-12-2015 at 08:36 PM

Post removed by op due recent findings that make information in post obsolete...content will be updated as time allows

Randy - 7-12-2015 at 09:02 PM

I think most kites can be flown off of the bridles. I've done it with small foil kites (e.g. HQ Symphony 2.2, HQ Rush 200) and similar. The main difference is that the NPW type kites are more useful for short line or off the bridle flying because they have more forward pull but less less upward lift. So they work for pulling things. Guys who want to jump high are not going to be using them though.

I've read also that its that they are more like parachutes and I think that makes sense. A parachute has a lot of pull against the wind but it won't lift one up - its sort of all drag, no lift (well much more drag than lift).

Kitewings weigh a whole lot more than a kite since they have a solid frame, but the wind provides a lot of the support for the frame so for a skilled user that may not be much of an issue. They are really cool - if money were no object I'd have one. (I have tried to make my own - not easy.) I don't know for sure, but sails are generally more efficient than kites (in terms of l/d). Kites being flown on short or no lines lose the advantage of cleaner and stronger wind at altitude. I've done a lot of landsailing with small windsurf sails (about 4-5 meters) they are better than kites at getting upwind, but not as flexible, and of course take time to rig.

rtz - 7-12-2015 at 11:42 PM


volock - 8-12-2015 at 12:00 AM

Upwind/available power suffers from no lines, just FYI. So you might be underpowered significantly.

Prussik - 8-12-2015 at 10:34 AM

Kitewing is a great addition to kites but not a substitute. The main reason is the required minimum wind required for the wing to fly – 15-20 km/h – the fact conveniently omitted from KW propaganda. Above that level, KW is a joy to use, with great forward pull requiring minimal edging, weight not being an issue at all. Below that level it is an awkward contraption to carry so in marginal conditions it is not a good idea to be far from home. In the right conditions it is my preferred means of propulsion. It is a little more technical than a kite, and a good turn needs some practice but a high speed, duck jibe is like nothing else. Hooking a wingtip in snow when hooked in will result in a spectacular crash so a certain degree of attention is needed before reactions become automatic.

bigkid - 8-12-2015 at 01:30 PM

one thing to remember is the fact that the kite will loose its ability to fly if you remove the lines. it will also gain power and increase the performance of the kite if you increase the line length. start with any kite and 20-25m lines and by shortening the lines to just the bridle will basically render the kite to just a big bag of air. by increasing the line length you increase the power and performance to a point. after that point it develops into a different scenario.
just remember the closer to the ground the kite fly's, the more crappy the wind. the higher up the kite fly's the cleaner the wind.

Randy - 8-12-2015 at 02:20 PM

It has occurred to me that when I fly my kite off the bridles only, it is no longer a kite, but really more of a sail, and I am the mast. As sails go, they are not particularly good ones, but they do have several advantages: They are lighter, cheaper and a lot more portable; the mast is free and you can take it with you wherever you go......:P

Bladerunner - 8-12-2015 at 02:30 PM

If your locations are getting closed in as you describe I have to wonder what the wind looks like down low where you want to fly ?
Picture the wind as water flowing toward you. It will be messed up for 7 - 10 times the distance of any obstacle upwind.

From the little I know of kite wing you want a LOT of space and strong winds to really enjoy them?

NPW on very short lines or off the bridle can be hauled in and then re-deployed while still in motion. Very handy for back roads or parks with poles.

ride to park.... and then park to ride

skimtwashington - 8-12-2015 at 03:50 PM




Quote:

NPW on very short lines or off the bridle can be hauled in and then re-deployed while still in motion


You bet!!...and even packed up while still moving.... in seconds!

I have ridden along a narrow 8ft wide asphalt walkway along beach on regular rollerblades... hugging edge and going by people. Rode off of bridal. Lift up like an umbrella when going by folks...


I use regular length line foil in open areas... but I did try it( NPW w/ short lines) at least once in high winds(30+mph) on beach.

Randy - 8-12-2015 at 05:30 PM

I used my NPW off the bridles with only 1 m lines for 2 days at Jibe (in part because there was plenty of wind - and I had never flown around that man kiters before so I wanted to keep the lines short).

Do it at my home parking lot as well. Sometimes its a quick way of dealing with an overpowered situation. All depends on circumstances.

Fflexikite - 9-12-2015 at 12:26 AM

Content removed by OP due to dead links

Randy - 9-12-2015 at 06:04 AM

My guess is you would be limited to going downwind only with that ice kite/sail, though I don't really know. That's how it looks on the video. It probably doesn't matter much - you could fold it up and then skate back upwind. Though if there is enough wind to get going you would probably have a bit of work getting back upwind.

One problem with foils on short lines is that they get their power from sped - being "worked" into a figure 8, which you can't do on short lines. NPW type kites don't need to do that, though one usually tries to do a sin wave type motion to add some power.

Bladerunner - 9-12-2015 at 11:33 AM

You don't need a better kite. You need a better car! ;)

I have had to say goodbye to a few choice spots due to development. At a certain point riding there becomes too frustrating and unsafe. One mistake can give our whole sport a big set back. My closest decent location is now a 45 minute drive. 4.5 hours now that we need snow. Either way, it's better than dealing with Janky winds!

For what you are describing I have no doubt that NPW will be the way to go. If DIY is your goal there are plenty of NPW plans out there and a host of people on here that can help you with your build. There is a reason that none of those other designs have a big following while NPW does!

Prussik - 9-12-2015 at 01:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid  
one thing to remember is the fact that the kite will loose its ability to fly if you remove the lines. it will also gain power and increase the performance of the kite if you increase the line length. start with any kite and 20-25m lines and by shortening the lines to just the bridle will basically render the kite to just a big bag of air. by increasing the line length you increase the power and performance to a point. after that point it develops into a different scenario.
just remember the closer to the ground the kite fly's, the more crappy the wind. the higher up the kite fly's the cleaner the wind.


Wing’s ability to fly and generate lift does not depend on whether it is on long lines, short lines or no lines but on its airfoil, airspeed and AOA. Short lines, or more so no lines, will reduce the projected area with some reduction of power. It does not mean that the wing looses the ability to fly. The airfoil remains essentially the same, the wind and motion provides the airspeed just like on longer lines. What is reduced or lost (with no lines) is the ability to fly across the window to generate more airspeed and more power which means the reduced ability to CONTROL power. Unlike insufficient power (due to smaller projected area or less wind at lower elevation) which can easily be remedied by using a bigger kite, the reduction of ability of power control can be a significant drawback.

Moving a kite within the window is not a prerequisite for power. It serves to generate more power than a stationary kite can provide and therefore provides power control. If continuous sining is required it only means that the kite is too small for the conditions.


fast_monte - 9-12-2015 at 03:09 PM

The ground also has friction that acts against the wind. Depending on the texture of the surface having the kite a little higher in the air may make a big difference.

skimtwashington - 9-12-2015 at 03:53 PM


Quote:

If continuous sining is required it only means that the kite is too small for the conditions.
.


Short line flying is all about size then...and it's inherent parked power

You'll need a carefully sized quiver of NPW's. nice they pack so small and can take a bunch in your day-sized backpack..and you can change on the fly..!:singing:

Fflexikite - 10-12-2015 at 12:38 AM

Content removed by OP due to dead links

Randy - 10-12-2015 at 05:18 AM

"Insanity is inherited- you get it from your kids. " - Peter Lynn


Windstruck - 10-12-2015 at 06:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington  

Quote:

If continuous sining is required it only means that the kite is too small for the conditions.
.


Short line flying is all about size then...and it's inherent parked power

You'll need a carefully sized quiver of NPW's. nice they pack so small and can take a bunch in your day-sized backpack..and you can change on the fly..!:singing:


Not that I've done a ton of off the bridle flying, but I do own a 9-kite quiver of NS3s ranging from 1.5m all the way up to 12.5m. For inland wind conditions I've found that the trick of increasing the kite size to match the decreasing wind strength is iffy at best right off the bridle. Part of this is likely due to wind inconsistencies. One issue that effects all NS3s when flown off the bridle is their tendency to fly backwards. As the winds get lighter and the kites bigger, the kites also get heavier and this back flying issue seems to get worse. I've had both a 10m and a 12.5m in the air and it was highly frustrating.

A better pilot and better winds could well lead to a better outcome, but I for one would not anticipate great results. :(

ssayre - 10-12-2015 at 06:38 AM

Inland winds demand at least 3-5 meter lines.

Off bridle will work with consistent wind even if light. Back stall happens when when there is a lull. Large size will suffer from back stall more because light inland wind is accompanied by lulls of 0. I suspect clean light wind would be very different story. However, 4 line flown of bridle works better than 2 line off bridle in light wind.

It's for these reasons I only longboard with the 4 meter and 2.5 meter star on a bar and short lines. In their wind ranges, there is not usually lulls of 0 if ever.

Again, I've gotten off bridle to work inland but it's a very rare day. Your normally going to need short lines if turbulent wind at all.

ssayre - 10-12-2015 at 06:43 AM

I've found a good gauge for consistent traction with short or no lines on a nasa flown on bar is if you launch, it should stay flying static at zenith with very little pilot input. If you launch and the kite wants to backstall and fall out of the sky, then you have to size up or quit for the day if your already on the biggest.

Windstruck - 10-12-2015 at 06:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
Inland winds demand at least 3-5 meter lines.

Off bridle will work with consistent wind even if light. Back stall happens when when there is a lull. Large size will suffer from back stall more because light inland wind is accompanied by lulls of 0. I suspect clean light wind would be very different story. However, 4 line flown of bridle works better than 2 line off bridle in light wind.

It's for these reasons I only longboard with the 4 meter and 2.5 meter star on a bar and short lines. In their wind ranges, there is not usually lulls of 0 if ever.

Again, I've gotten off bridle to work inland but it's a very rare day. Your normally going to need short lines if turbulent wind at all.


There you are Sean! I've been waiting for days for you to weigh in on this thread. I think you are absolutely right about everything you noted for us inland guys. It is extremely rare that I will get to fly on the beach, but maybe I'll try some off the bridle NPW flying with my skates at Ivanpah next Spring. That is some sweet inland wind!

I'm going to experiment this winter on skis a bit. Once our snowpack gets deep enough there are a lot of places I can go where it will have been miles since the wind found any obstructions to janky it up. I agree that this is likely highly related to the jank/clean issues we deal with (daily). My limited experience flying off bridles has to date been limited to static sessions running around to attempt to simulate movement under power. Under such conditions I've had far better outcomes in higher winds / smaller kites as you mentioned.

ssayre - 10-12-2015 at 07:39 AM

I was just taking in all the action on this thread :D

I've been wanting to split my bridles on the 5.5 and 7 and give them another go on handles and longboard in the really light stuff just for fun and for better control through the lulls.

The 2.5 and 4 and I assume your 3.2 are great fun on short line. They handle the gusty stuff and are VERY maneuverable. However if you get some clean wind, those large sizes will probably be fun on skate/skis as well

Fflexikite - 11-12-2015 at 02:18 PM

post deleted by op

Windstruck - 11-12-2015 at 02:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Fflexikite  
I had never heard of the backstall but certainly have encountered it in flying my playsail and wondered what was going on. Now I know.


I've dealt with backstalls much more with big NPWs than small ones, likely do to the winds in my area often being such that they drop down to next to nothing when the base wind is light enough to merit a large kite. This is certainly attributable to (personal) pilot error issues too.

This video shows a couple of classic NPW back flying / stalls. Backflying right in the beginning and a stall at around 2:45. This video was shot with a 12.5m NS3 on a very light wind day. I rode on an artificial turf athletic field to cut down on the rolling resistance.

ssayre - 11-12-2015 at 02:55 PM

A very rare treat Steve provides. One of only a couple known videos that I'm aware of globally of someone flying a 12.5 nasa :)

Fflexikite - 12-12-2015 at 08:16 PM

Content removed by OP

Windstruck - 13-12-2015 at 06:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Fflexikite  
12.5M!!!!!!!!!!!!! The power on that beast must be amazing! I didn't know they made them that large commercially (or rather I wouldn't know where to even find a NPW of such size).
Those backstalls are intriguing. The exact same thing happens seemingly on my playsail which while similar is not a NPW so I guess this is something characteristic to single skin non-rigid kites. Really fascinating stuff.

BTW did you make that 12.5m or buy it?


Steffen Born from Germany sells a full quiver of NPWs called the NASA STAR-3. He stocks 2.5, 4.0, 5.5, and 7.0m, and makes custom 1.5, 3.2, 8.5, 10.0, and 12.5m. They are 3-line kites, using the two main lines for power as per usual for NPWs and a third central line that when pulled scrunches up the nose of the kite, an action that scrubs power creating a DP of sorts. Central line is also used for "flagging out" as a safety line.

Here is a link to the 12.5m: http://www.venturi-power.de/product_info.php?info=p235_12-5q...

If you peruse the General Born-Kite thread you will find that a few of us are quite fond of these beauties. :D

And yes, the power of the 12.5 can be pretty humbling. I think this kite would be best suited for very clean light wind. I live in the mountains of Utah and our winds can be quite variable, dare I say, janky. I've had this kite in the air in my buggy and had the wind pick up. It can become Toads Wild Ride pretty quickly! :karate:

Prussik - 14-12-2015 at 09:05 AM


Quote:

Those backstalls are intriguing.


All Nasas, and that includes Nasa Star, suffer from the critical flaw – reduced ability to fly at low angle of attack. From what I’ve seen in every Nasa I’ve tried is that that deficiency is overcompensated by overly steep AOA and too much trailing edge pull. This results in a lot of power - largely illusionary since it is directed where you don’t want to go i.e. downwind, at the expense of the component in the direction of travel. This is accompanied by the tendency to backflying and tail crashing. For those reasons, without modifications, I do not consider them competitive with good foils. With modifications I find them quite good, lightly to moderately powered, preferably in low drag situations like on clear ice. BTW Nasa Stars are 3 or 4 or 5 line kites and I wouldn’t fly them in other than the last configuration.

ssayre - 14-12-2015 at 09:50 AM

One's flaw is another one's advantage I suppose. sitting deep in window with loads of pull help in high rolling resistance situations imo. Personally I haven't experienced back stall unless flying in very light wind with lulls of 0 OR pilot error in failing to keep the kite moving.

Randy - 14-12-2015 at 10:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Prussik  

Quote:

Those backstalls are intriguing.


All Nasas, and that includes Nasa Star, suffer from the critical flaw – reduced ability to fly at low angle of attack. From what I’ve seen in every Nasa I’ve tried is that that deficiency is overcompensated by overly steep AOA and too much trailing edge pull. This results in a lot of power - largely illusionary since it is directed where you don’t want to go i.e. downwind, at the expense of the component in the direction of travel. This is accompanied by the tendency to backflying and tail crashing. For those reasons, without modifications, I do not consider them competitive with good foils. With modifications I find them quite good, lightly to moderately powered, preferably in low drag situations like on clear ice. BTW Nasa Stars are 3 or 4 or 5 line kites and I wouldn’t fly them in other than the last configuration.


I would be interested in knowing what modifications you are speaking of. Sounds interesting.

Prussik - 16-12-2015 at 10:32 AM

I dug up my posting from 2013:

My impressions from the past, sporadic encounters with these kites were that they are bridled for power rather than the window width and forward pull. The same seems to be true is true of Nasa Star. This indicates to me the likelihood of a too steep AOA and/or too much braking. So the first thing I did was to release the brake pull a little. This immediately widened the window, significantly reduced the tendency to back-fly or tail-crash when underpowered. This alleviated somewhat my original scepticism about these kites and convinced me that it may be worthwhile to give them a more serious consideration. So the next thing I did was to correct things I didn’t like about Nasa Star starting with Z-bridles. They are made of thick nylon cord, which makes for big, snag prone knots and require larger than necessary line gobblers for adjusting the lengths. I replaced them with Spectra line. At the same time I changed the other thing I didn’t like –the brake function. Brakes were connected to A9-A12. They work better, in my opinion, when connected to A11,A12,B5,B6 . And finally –while replacing Z-bridles – I divided power connections into 2 parts: (A1-A6,B1,B2) and (A7-A10,B3,B4). Thus, after installing line gobblers, I can adjust the amount of brake pull as well as the AOA.
I experimented with AOA and brake tension. Gradual reduction of the AOA eventually produces the tendency of the leading edge between B1, B2 and B3 to loose tension and begin to flop. This can be alleviated by increasing the length of B2 bridle. Pushing it a little more may require increasing B1 and B3 bridles a little. I eventually settled on a set up when I can induce some leading edge flop in a dive but I can also avoid it by a little of brake input. In that configuration the window is as good as any foil in lighter loading with no tendency of backflying. It is more difficult to fine tune larger sizes which is not unexpected considering that with the same number of bridles the support of the canopy is not as good. Performance under heavy load still does not match a good foil, producing excessive downwind and reduced forward components of the force sooner than a foil.

Randy - 16-12-2015 at 10:59 AM

Thanks. I've got a NS2, I'll take a look at this. I already have the different brake line selections, I believe. I've not used z-bridles on the NS2.