Power Kite Forum

Snowkite alternative to the Peak 6m?

Coldsnap - 20-1-2016 at 05:04 AM

Finally we have some good snowkiting conditions here in Sweden! Unfortunately we've been unlucky with wind speeds, which is why I'm thinking of a bigger alternative to my Peak 6m. This last week I've had great ice/snow conditions, but so little wind I could barely get going on skis.

Learning on the Peak last season was great, and the Peak2 9m looks very tempting indeed, but there are some things that have me leaning towards something else entirely.

I find the bar pressure on the Peak a little too heavy, my arms get a bit tired from riding with the bar pulled in, working the kite and sheeting in and out a lot. Adding to this is the fact that I usually have to pilot the kite all the time, it's not exactly park-and-ride compared to the few LEI's I've tried. (Still considering myself a beginner, so I'm probably riding slightly underpowered all the time.) Also, there's all the talk of tip tuck on the PK2.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely in love with the depower range of the Peak, I can launch/land anywhere and anytime I want, and the kite never feels "scary" to me since I'm always able to dump almost all its power.

I don't want to go LEI again because of all the setup hassle, people keep suggesting the 8m or 10m Ozone Access but it feels like I'll miss the safety of the Peak? (I've never tried any other foils for snowkiting.) Also, a regular 8 or 10m foil would kind of overlap with the wind range of the 6m Peak, right?

ssayre - 20-1-2016 at 05:18 AM

whatever kite you decide on, Go BIG since you already have the peak 6 you need a light wind kite to cover 7-12 knots.

ssayre - 20-1-2016 at 05:46 AM

Also, keep in mind the peak 1's have more projected area than peak 2's by about .5 meter per size. So there will be even more overlap on low end on a p1 6 meter and a p2 9 meter. I'd go 12 meter if going the peak 2 route.

I haven't flown one, but he access seems to be a real crowd pleaser. Especially the later ones with the re-ride. I'm sure they will speak up.

abkayak - 20-1-2016 at 06:21 AM

yea...i know you want a foil type kite....but
if you get a larger peak(9) for the same winds you wont be in and out on the bar or working the kite as much...right?
i wont mention the familiarity you'll have or being able to leave the 6m in your back pocket

Windstruck - 20-1-2016 at 07:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Coldsnap  
Finally we have some good snowkiting conditions here in Sweden! Unfortunately we've been unlucky with wind speeds, which is why I'm thinking of a bigger alternative to my Peak 6m. This last week I've had great ice/snow conditions, but so little wind I could barely get going on skis.

Learning on the Peak last season was great, and the Peak2 9m looks very tempting indeed, but there are some things that have me leaning towards something else entirely.

I find the bar pressure on the Peak a little too heavy, my arms get a bit tired from riding with the bar pulled in, working the kite and sheeting in and out a lot. Adding to this is the fact that I usually have to pilot the kite all the time, it's not exactly park-and-ride compared to the few LEI's I've tried. (Still considering myself a beginner, so I'm probably riding slightly underpowered all the time.) Also, there's all the talk of tip tuck on the PK2.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely in love with the depower range of the Peak, I can launch/land anywhere and anytime I want, and the kite never feels "scary" to me since I'm always able to dump almost all its power.

I don't want to go LEI again because of all the setup hassle, people keep suggesting the 8m or 10m Ozone Access but it feels like I'll miss the safety of the Peak? (I've never tried any other foils for snowkiting.) Also, a regular 8 or 10m foil would kind of overlap with the wind range of the 6m Peak, right?



Heja Sverige! Cool to see a post from up North. I lived in Stockholm a total of 6 years, have a sister that lives permanently in Granna (sorry, no umlad), and love your country. At some point I'd be most interested in knowing where you live and where good kiting can be found.

There are many, many good kites out there as you know. Each of us have our biases, mix of experience, and exposure to different wings. I too greatly like the Peak-2 for Snowkiting as well as the Access (V6 with Re-Ride). Owning both the 6m P2 and 6m Access V6 I will tell you that the P2 has a lot more pull. Conversely, I would use my Access in much higher winds with confidence. Should you want to stay in the Peak family I would go all the way to the 12m Green Monster. With the amount of DP you already appreciate you will find the 9m too close to the 6m.

Here is a video from my buggy on grass where I flew the 6 and 12m P2s back to back on the same day.



If you want to go the Access route, be sure to get a new V6 model as it has Re-Ride. This is a GREAT system. Essentially, the 5th safety line goes into the kite and when pulled scrunches up the kite. Now that I have it I don't want a two skin DP without it. Since the 6m Access has less pull than the 6m Peak I would think that at last a 10m Access would be necessary to get you into low winds. I have not flow any Access other than the 6m so I can't speak to the low wind behavior of the larger kites in this series.

Here's the thing: the Peaks really shine as low wind machines. In a sense you put up with some stuff (occasional tip tuck, bar pressure) to get the low wind performance. The small Peaks are for most folks their high wind kites so that sort of goes away as a feature. The 12m P2 is a wonderful low wind kite IMHO and if you already own and like the 6m then you are a Peak fan and I suspect that you will like the behavior of the 12m better than the 6m. As for bar pressure, if you make long runs without needing to turn around every few seconds then you should learn to use the little stopper ball above the bar. Once you get going on a tack slide the ball down about 2/3s of the way. It will not let the bar go farther out and will take the load off your arms. Note that you have now sort of turned your DP kite into a FB one, so be sure to practice disengaging the ball quickly should you need to DP in a hurry.

Last thing I'll say is the Access is a great high wind kite in 4m and 6m sizes due to its rock solid performance and low lift. If you want to boost, jump, glide, etc. on skis the Access is not going to be your tool of choice. If you want to stay firmly on the snow then that will be a positive for you.

Others should (please) chime in with other choices. There are lots of snowkites out there used by people with a great deal of experience and far larger exposure to different models than me. This is my first year Snowkiting.

Lycka till!

windrider1 - 20-1-2016 at 07:45 AM

HEY BUDD youre in the wrong forum if you want honest advice about the peaks, these guys will try their best to convince you how great the peaks are even though any experienced kiter will tell you thyre crap. and when that dosent works thye will even throw in a few insults to convince you otherwise. The peaks have a lot of issues, high bar pressure, on and off power delivery, the small sizes are unstable in high winds , tip tucking in the larger sizes,annoying vibrating back lines and so on . Get an ozone access or if youre in to some fun get a HQ montana or speed 4.

Feyd - 20-1-2016 at 08:06 AM


I would suggest two options.

Ozone Access and Frenzy. Both are equipped with Ozone's ReRide systems and that system in terms of safety is as good as the Peaks and maybe better in some ways.

Depower ranges are very close although the Peak does have some advantage depower wise at the cost of overall flight quality.

Lower bar pressure, no flutter and excellent gust handling are traits in both the Access V6 and The Frenzy V10. The Access is an excellent all round forgiving kite. The Frenzy is very much like the Access, in terms of gust management and depower, but with faster turn rate and more lift.

This all said, if you are looking for a kite that will perform as well as a 12m Peak or better and are focused on the two options I've listed here you would be looking at the 14m range which honestly is less of a light wind engine and more of an engine for heavy riders in normal winds. Unless you purchase it in a UL version.

Another option, especially for light wind performance, would be the HQ Matrixx 2. Flight quality is excellent and it's closed cell so you have double duty for water use. It is by far one of the nicest kites we've ever seen and in terms of lightwind performance, a great kite for the money.

I guess that's 3 options.:P



abkayak - 20-1-2016 at 11:12 AM

wow...someone doesn't like peaks very much

B-Roc - 20-1-2016 at 03:34 PM

Honest feedback is always appreciated. There is no perfect product and we all know that. Pros and cons to all. I like hearing the negative feedback. A user will experience it either way. Better to know up front what you are buying and decide that its acceptable than own it and then realize its not.

If a review doesn't equal a fair or even shares of cons with the pros then I assume the reviewer either 1) does not have enough time on the kite to know how it truly performs or 2) is passing on more stoke with their new purchase than actual unbiased feedback on performance.

windrider1 - 20-1-2016 at 04:30 PM

exactly I wish someone was honest before i bought one, would have saved me some hard earned cash, the only benefit to the peaks are the small packdown size and the almost 90% depower when u let go of the bar that's it. the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc  
Honest feedback is always appreciated. There is no perfect product and we all know that. Pros and cons to all. I like hearing the negative feedback. A user will experience it either way. Better to know up front what you are buying and decide that its acceptable than own it and then realize its not.

If a review doesn't equal a fair or even shares of cons with the pros then I assume the reviewer either 1) does not have enough time on the kite to know how it truly performs or 2) is passing on more stoke with their new purchase than actual unbiased feedback on performance.

windrider1 - 20-1-2016 at 04:31 PM

peaks suck, there I said it. Every negative I said about the behavior of them are 100% facts :frog:LOL

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
wow...someone doesn't like peaks very much

yeti - 20-1-2016 at 04:36 PM

Sometimes people on the internet forget that a negative review of something isn't a personal attack on someone who gave a positive review.

But yes, honest feedback can't hurt. Let people read things for what they are.

ssayre - 20-1-2016 at 05:58 PM

"Small pack down and 90% depower when you let the bar out"

Oh is that all it does :lol: I guess that's not a big deal if you have coastal wind, but when 100% of your kiting is inland fields then you begin to appreciate that.

Flysurfer's own advertising for this is pretty clear its meant for back country kiting/touring and also advertised as being a good beginner kite.

in my opinion it performs exactly how it was designed. If those critical design elements are not important to a person than the peak probably isn't the right fit. Especially for people with such vast experience and knowledge.

ssayre - 20-1-2016 at 09:42 PM

Location, disciplines, style of riding all go into kite choice. I'd like to point out that I would most likely have a very different quiver if by water. Most likely would have an lei or 2 and would have tried a speed by now. not to mention a full quiver of vipers (fixed bridles). As it is, I like kites to maximize the use of my locations. I also, like to do a lot of short line unique stuff. To each their own. I really haven't flown a kite I didn't like.





Coldsnap - 21-1-2016 at 05:35 AM

Thanks for all the advice! Lots of interesting input! :)

Quote:

"Small pack down and 90% depower when you let the bar out"
Oh is that all it does :lol: I guess that's not a big deal if you have coastal wind, but when 100% of your kiting is inland fields then you begin to appreciate that. Flysurfer's own advertising for this is pretty clear its meant for back country kiting/touring and also advertised as being a good beginner kite.

Exactly this. It was a wonderful kite to learn on, being able to dump all its power was great for safety, and even the increased bar pressure was kind of good for getting a feel for the kite. Also, most of my kiting is done on inland fields and frozen lakes, which means there is hiking and bad winds involved.

I wouldn't say I've "outgrown" the Peak, it's just that I'm beginning to feel it would be nice to change things up with a kite that's a bit more park-and-ride and easier on the arms.
Sounds like I'm not really going to get much better light-wind performance unless buying a huge >14m kite (or another Peak), and I think I might not be ready for that yet. (A friend of mine has a 19m Speed2 that I've tried on some occasions, and it's kind of like being attached to a train.)
Feels a little silly to buy another kite in the same wind range though... ;)

Feyd - 21-1-2016 at 06:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
"Small pack down and 90% depower when you let the bar out"

Oh is that all it does :lol: I guess that's not a big deal if you have coastal wind, but when 100% of your kiting is inland fields then you begin to appreciate that.

Flysurfer's own advertising for this is pretty clear its meant for back country kiting/touring and also advertised as being a good beginner kite.

in my opinion it performs exactly how it was designed. If those critical design elements are not important to a person than the peak probably isn't the right fit. Especially for people with such vast experience and knowledge.


Yes, the Peak does exactly as it is designed. If you are a "park and ride" type of kiter looking for the smoothest, uber stable flying experience with minimal need for pilot input, the Peak isn't the kite for sure. You can't find a Cadillac ride in a Jeep. :D

The Peak is unique in what it does and what it offers. It's a bit weird no doubt but man it makes life simple in some of the places people have to ride and if you ride it powered and sheeted in it's a pretty darn smooth ride.

Coldsnap, if you go the >14m route just be mindful, not all big kites are lightwind kites. If it's 14M + and not made of some flavor of ultra light fabric, the kite is intended for larger/heavier riders. Not light winds.

The only exceptions would be race type foils like Chronos, Sonics etc.. They are standard fabric but super efficient and able to offset the weight of standard fabric.

Early Speeds were power houses. Loved the way they felt.

Another thing to consider when looking for advise on light wind options is who you are asking and what their definition of "light wind" is. For example on firm snow or ice with skis, my definition is 3kts +/-. On glass we can ride in less than 3. But someone in deep pow, is going to have a higher wind speed in mind.

Speaking of the Jeep/Peak comparison. I think I want to steal some phrasing from the Jeeping community and make a sticker.

"It's a Peak thing, you wouldn't understand."

:P

Windstruck - 21-1-2016 at 07:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  


Especially for people with such vast experience and knowledge.


"It's a Peak thing, you wouldn't understand."

:P


Right on brothers! Auto signature updated. :moon:

abkayak - 21-1-2016 at 10:59 AM

shouldn't you/he be on the 9m anyway now??...he's under powered and working the kite allover
probably wouldnt/shouldn't be using the 6m much now that he has the flying thing down pat unless the winds high
lets back up...not looking for a lite wind kite, looking to be properly powered in the snow...correct?

ok go!

Windstruck - 21-1-2016 at 05:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
shouldn't you/he be on the 9m anyway now??...he's under powered and working the kite allover
probably wouldnt/shouldn't be using the 6m much now that he has the flying thing down pat unless the winds high
lets back up...not looking for a lite wind kite, looking to be properly powered in the snow...correct?

ok go!


Agreed. Suggestions were made for larger Ozone kites with re-ride like Access and Frenzy. Note that he was mentioning needing to hike into places to kite, so a 12m P2 might be nice for its small packing size and weight. But agreed, best for low wind.

John Holgate - 22-1-2016 at 02:41 AM


Quote:

HEY BUDD youre in the wrong forum if you want honest advice


My experience has been the exact opposite. I've been reading most of the stuff written about the Peaks over the last couple of years - the majority of it very positive. I've also PM'd quite a few of the Peak 2 owners and asked specific questions and always received helpful, honest advice. It all lead up to me purchasing one and it does exactly what everyone said it does. (ok, ALMOST everyone). Wonderful kite!


Quote:

If you are a "park and ride" type of kiter looking for the smoothest, uber stable flying experience with minimal need for pilot input, the Peak isn't the kite for sure.


I did 75km of cruising on the beach recently with the Peak 2 6m and I thought it was a wonderfully stable, fuss free park n ride experience. No strain on the arms as I was often using the 'cruise control' stopper ball. It needed very little attention from me allowing me to sit back and enjoy the view. Now admittedly, this was a very stable on shore wind of 6-12 knots. I can't believe the 6m can actually park and ride with the buggy in 6 knots but it did. (sea level, South Aus, so the wind is reasonably dense).

On a previous occasion, I gave the P2 to a 9m P1 owner and he thought it was a much more sophisticated bar and kite and loved the stopper ball that took the strain off his arms. He commented that it was a big improvement over the P1.

Feyd - 22-1-2016 at 04:49 AM

Without a doubt,as with any kite, in the right conditions the Peak is as smooth and rock solid in the air as one could hope for. I was referring more to how it is in less than good conditions where you are forced to manage wide swings in wind speed. For example you guys are learning the value of using a stopper ball. Here in many of the places we ride we can't use the stopper ball much. It lacks the push level of push through to be used safely. When I used the stopper I generally have 2 fingers on it for rapid readjust.

Similar to auto zenith on Peter Lynn arcs. Awesome feature, love it, doesn't work here.

This isn't a reflection on the Peak as a kite.

The key here is that you guys are using the stopped. Indicating that you are riding somewhat powered with minimal depower flutter. In those conditions the Peak flies smooth as any kite. It's the people who don't have the ability to figure that out or are unwilling to, that have the issues.

Whereas more traditional foils like an Access is going to feel the same regardless of power range. No flutter feedback etc...

I like flying different kites. Some I like more than others but there are few kites that aren't fun if you figure out their quirks and are willing to adapt.

Coldsnap - 22-1-2016 at 06:54 AM

Thanks for all the input!
Looks like I'm more or less back where I started, choosing between a 9/12m Peak2 and an 8/10m Access. Tough decision! :-)
Leaning more and more towards the 10m Access tbh. Not for range but more for comfort and variation.

ssayre - 22-1-2016 at 07:02 AM

The most important task at hand at building a quiver is covering as much wind range as you can. 8/10 access will more or less cover same as your peak. That's fine if you are more interested in an alternative, but I would focus on covering a broader wind range using what you have now.

ssayre - 22-1-2016 at 07:04 AM

gotta figure out if you want to replace what you have or broaden wind range

abkayak - 22-1-2016 at 07:19 AM

1st world problem....take the Marine approach.....buy them all and let God figure it out

Feyd - 22-1-2016 at 07:29 AM

Sasayre is right. 8/10m Access is essentially the same power you have now with the 9m. You'd get better light wind performance with the Peak 9m and 5-10m line extensions than you would with a 10m Access.

windrider1 - 22-1-2016 at 07:29 AM

just get an access.

Feyd - 22-1-2016 at 07:32 PM

Hahaha. Haters gotta hate. :evil:

And there's nothing in the Access line that can out perform the 12 Peak in light winds.

windrider1 - 22-1-2016 at 08:03 PM

I think we can use this forum as evidence to create a new medical condition, lets call it delusional peakivitis- symtoms include very irrational thinking, eX- convincing one self that a negative thing is actually a positive thing, Accepting the inferior just to be different, attacking others that speak truth and facts, rambling and obscessing on and on about 1 good point but ignoring the 100 other bad points ,,sort of like tunnel vision, a person with peakavitis also usually loves those nasa type things or kites and rambles on about them also. LOL I knw abayak will love tht one:lol:

windrider1 - 22-1-2016 at 08:13 PM

Fortunalely there is a cure for these poor fellows. someone just needs t take them out to a field and put a proper 4 line kite in their hands a good stable kite and boom ! thy will be instantly cured.:wee:

abkayak - 22-1-2016 at 09:51 PM

All kites are good kites...particularly the ones I've never flown
People are after different qualities in a kite..and what's good for me may not be what someone else is after or vise versa...now Wind, we know that has been the case w/ me and you..you don't like how my kites are set up and if it was yours you would change it immediately... I like your kites more than my own but say the bar pressure is non existent and have trouble figuring them out....now for the peek, I've seen guys flying them doing things in a bug when I've been sidelined for it being too gusty and other times too litle wind...honestly wanted one during these times then I could speak from experience not from just observing
Now For the Bedsheets
No question in my mind that's the way to go ona skateboard..I landboarded on nasty gusty off shores w/ short lines at WW..all my fb and dp stuff would have been in the Atlantic if I put it up...w/ the NASSA I was riding
Now I'd rather be fb in a bug...and dp on a landboard this I know...but snow, that peek makes total sense to me even w/ that awful sound it makes

ssayre - 22-1-2016 at 09:59 PM

This is excellent stuff. There should be admission charged for this thread.

abkayak - 22-1-2016 at 10:01 PM

Can't decide about cracking another porter and to keep going

ssayre - 22-1-2016 at 10:06 PM

I'm good for one more. Just finished a couple Sam Adams Boston lager. It may not be considered craft beer but I think it's good stuff.

abkayak - 22-1-2016 at 10:14 PM

Yea your 1hr back and several behind me right now

ssayre - 22-1-2016 at 10:22 PM

Nope same time. indy is eastern

windrider1 - 22-1-2016 at 10:51 PM

Abayak are saying u are a peak fan. Scandelous.,,,nooooo wayy . come on dude ure a hardcore kinda guy a real kiter u need something like a speed or montana or frenzy to get the blood flowing. Do i have to take u out and put u on a proper kite too. U knw i will.:D

skimtwashington - 23-1-2016 at 12:14 AM



abkayak - 23-1-2016 at 05:40 AM

I'm back and sober...I can't be a peak fan till I fly one, I will get around to that same as a speed...what I do know is what I watched which was impressive..and also that they pak down small, won't catch and hold snow, won't blow out a cell, and can dump the power...all good things for the snow
They are kinda ugly, not as bad as a Tensor :D but ugly none the less...and they make a sound as inviting as a bull sea lion...but hey, even that can be used to an advantage
I got a lot of proper kites...but, they could all be replaced w/ a 3 kite Peek quiver
That won't happen but technically it could...these inland guys seem to like them for the on and off winds they get...sure I like to tease them and call them pussies and stuff...but I take them for their word and have to fig they know what's best for them
I so like that peekavitis term...but I don't think they are serving up kool-aid

Feyd - 23-1-2016 at 05:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1  
Fortunalely there is a cure for these poor fellows. someone just needs t take them out to a field and put a proper 4 line kite in their hands a good stable kite and boom ! thy will be instantly cured.:wee:


Well dang, maybe you can teach me to fly a kite. Apparently we've been doing it all wrong!:o

Winderider is the definition of "anti-fanboy". :D

But you have to admire his willingness to comment on what snowkiters need or don't need in spite of the fact that he doesn't ride snow. Love him or hate him he brings good entertainment value to a thread!

ABKayak nails it tho. All kites are good kites.


windrider1 - 23-1-2016 at 06:38 AM

feyd I don't knw it might be difficult to teach an old guy new tricks, :frog: but anything is possible. Well its snowing outside. so time to do some kiting. abayak ure banned from the mainland if u show up with a peak.:lol:



Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Quote: Originally posted by windrider1  
Fortunalely there is a cure for these poor fellows. someone just needs t take them out to a field and put a proper 4 line kite in their hands a good stable kite and boom ! thy will be instantly cured.:wee:


Well dang, maybe you can teach me to fly a kite. Apparently we've been doing it all wrong!:o

Winderider is the definition of "anti-fanboy". :D

But you have to admire his willingness to comment on what snowkiters need or don't need in spite of the fact that he doesn't ride snow. Love him or hate him he brings good entertainment value to a thread!

ABKayak nails it tho. All kites are good kites.


3shot - 23-1-2016 at 05:15 PM

Good read. I like beer and Peaks! ;)

TEDWESLEY - 23-1-2016 at 05:36 PM

Perhaps it's not the sound of the Peak in full depower that bothers you.
Perhaps it's that the sound is telling everyone else that you can't handle the power...

Heavy bar pressure.
Ever fly a fixed bridle ???

Everyone has different tastes yet we can all fly together.
Wear your earplugs when I'm around! It ain't always pretty, but I'm still upright after the gust rolls through...

Coldsnap - 24-1-2016 at 12:37 PM

Wow, this thread took some interesting turns for sure. :-D
A specific question for the Peakists: When fully depowering the 12m Peak2, how much does it power down to? My 6m Peak 1 has almost no pull at all when depowered, is it the same with the 12m Pk2?

Windstruck - 24-1-2016 at 12:49 PM

I would think there are two scenarios. First, on the P2s there is a clam cleat adjustment not on the P1s that you may not be familiar with, but probably are from other DP kites where they are common. If you sheet in the clam cleat all the way and let the bar out all the way a huge amount of power can be scrubbed. I've had to do that when the wind has increased dramatically since launch and I now find myself in a potentially dangerous overpowered situation. The kite doesn't fly all that well in that setting but you won't get dragged into anything or lofted unless the wind is really strong (over 25-30 knots).

Second, if you release the chicken loop safety mechanism the kite will flag out on a single rear line assuming no tangles or too many line twists. Here the kite is quite depowered and will flop around on the ground or just off the ground even in winds as strong as just described.

One of the drawbacks to the 12m P2 in these settings is the potential for the kite and bridles to get a bit convoluted. This is rarely a problem in more normal winds, but at least in my hands I often end up with some things to sort out if I have to bring down the 12m in what becomes way to much wind. Likely a single skin problem as there is just so little structure to the kite unpowered but there sure is a lot of ripstop and bridle to contend with.

I hope this answers your question.

Feyd - 24-1-2016 at 03:45 PM

Depower on Peak 2 models is as good as the Peak 1 but can be even more due to the addition of the trim system.

Coldsnap - 25-1-2016 at 02:28 AM

Quote:

Depower on Peak 2 models is as good as the Peak 1 but can be even more due to the addition of the trim system.

Just the answer I was hoping for! Someone said earlier in the thread my top priority should be to improve wind range, and after this weekend I definitely agree...
Again, I had great snow conditions, but not enough wind. The 6m Pk1 would fly fine, but not enough to get moving. :(
I'm still interested in the Access (for more comfortable cruising) but having good low wind performance seems more important.

So Peak 2 it is!

After reading all the reviews I expect to run into some tuning issues, but it seems most people have been able to sort everything out with some minor tweaks.
I'm only about 165 lbs and usually ride on packed snow, should I go straight for the 12m or would that be overkill?

Feyd - 25-1-2016 at 04:39 AM

You're roughly in the weight range that most of the factory wind ranges are based on. The jump in power from the 6 to the 12 is considerable. If you had on a firm surface and ride skis in 3-4kts, the 12 is an easy way to do it.

However the bar pressure on the 12 is higher than your 6m. The ability to sheet in and lock the bar in place with the stopper will help off set some of this. It just takes some getting used to.

Coldsnap - 25-1-2016 at 05:04 AM

Feyd, your input on the Peaks is really invaluable, thanks for taking the time. :)
Would a 9m be more sensible? I get that there is some significant overlap in wind range between the 6m and the 9m, but I'm worried that the 12m will be too much for me to handle.

(Sorry for keeping the questions coming, just want to make sure I'm making the right choice since these things are rather costly...)

Feyd - 25-1-2016 at 05:32 AM

No worries. Drinking coffee and watching the moon set, just chilling out before today's adventures. :D

With the broad wind ranges available on the Peaks there is a fair amount of overlap. When it was just 9 and 6m those two sizes covered about anything most people would be in. At 200lb the 9m is about as close to a 1kite quiver as I've ever seen for me. Adding line extensions (5m) enhances the lower end performance a good amount and puts it almost within usable range of the 12 Peak.

If you arent flying in crazy low winds and want more versatility, the 9m with a set of line extensions will add considerable low wind performance to your quiver. One of our students was out this weekend on his 6m with extensions and was able to ride. He weighs in at 210lbs and was riding the 6m in the same conditions smaller riders were riding 12m Speed 4s. Winds were never more than 9kts. Surface was firm with light powder, about 50mm. Was he lit? No. But he was riding, had power and was having fun.

But only after the line extensions were put on.

If you are concerned about to big a jump, maybe the 9m is the better option. For us over here its hard to say without seeing what you're riding over there. Here, we only take the 12m out when there is little or no wind in the forecast. Today for example, we have lessons and I will be putting our students in the 12m. Winds are supposed to be 3kts. As a school the 12m gets our students out in conditions suited to kites like our 17m R1 demo.

But without the learning curve or risk.

In the end it comes down to you. You know better than anyone what you need. My instincts say 9m and add extensions for lighter wind days.

Fwiw, the 9m performs in light winds like a UL 12m traditional foil. The 12m is more or less equal to 15m.lmo

ssayre - 25-1-2016 at 06:28 AM

I need to add the extensions to my 9. I've got 3m extensions that are for depower and factory made, and I have 5m lines made from less thick fb line that I made. I trust my loops but not sure on line strength.

Not sure which to try first but am inclined to try the 3m extensions first.

Coldsnap - 25-1-2016 at 06:50 AM

9m Pk2 ordered! \o/

Windstruck - 25-1-2016 at 08:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Coldsnap  
9m Pk2 ordered! \o/


Way to go coldsnap! I think you will be pleased. I weigh around 100 kg which is what had me biased to the 12m, but I suspect that the 9m (with extensions as Chris suggested) is a great call! I bought all four of my peaks from him and trust him implicitly.

I also have the 5m extensions and have used them with the 12m (no need on the others since I can size up by kite). If I can't get a session in with my 12m P2 with extensions then there just isn't any wind at all. They do make a difference in pull strength at a cost of making turning more sluggish.

When you get the 9m Peak-2 you will see that the way the brake lines are secured to the bar has them coming out the narrow way. I would suggest undoing the knots of the brake pigtails and threading them through the other way, effectively making the brake lines farther apart. This will make the kite more responsive to turning input. It will be important if and when you use the extensions, but also make the 9m turn more like the 6m you already have. I run my 4m narrow, my 6m wide (same narrow bar), my 9m wide, and my 12 wide (same wider bar).

Lycka till!

3shot - 26-1-2016 at 07:38 PM

Ah man. I love watching kites being purchased! :thumbup:

Coldsnap - 4-2-2016 at 09:58 AM

The Peak 2 has arrived! Unfortunately the snow is now gone here, so I had to try it static. (Skiing trip in 2 weeks, can't wait!!) Took the 6m Pk1 out for a spin first, in about 5 kts, then switched to the 9m Pk2. I expected it to behave very differently from the Pk1, but I found them to be very similar. Of course the Pk2 has a lot more power, and noticably more lift, but in general it was a lot like flying the Pk1. At first I had a LOT of tip tucking going on, especially on one side, but after half an hour or so I tried shortening the B mixer a few centimeters as suggested by Feyd and others, and it seems a little better now. I still get occasional tip tuck though.

I initially did not like the bar, it feels too clunky and heavy compared to the Pk1 bar. On the other hand, the Pk1 bar is a bit too short. Hopefully it will grow on me.

I was absolutely amazed by the small pack size, I don't know what sorcery this is but the 9m Pk2 actually packs down slightly SMALLER than the 6m Pk1! In the not-very-large bag that came with my old Naish LEI I managed to fit both the 9m Pk2, the 6m Pk1, harness, helmet, water bottle and snacks! Happy days are here again! :-D

ssayre - 4-2-2016 at 10:27 AM

You made my day by saying you like the p1 bar better so far. :thumbup:

I like to jab those fancy bar p2 guys:P

Windstruck - 4-2-2016 at 06:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Coldsnap  
The Peak 2 has arrived! Unfortunately the snow is now gone here, so I had to try it static. (Skiing trip in 2 weeks, can't wait!!) Took the 6m Pk1 out for a spin first, in about 5 kts, then switched to the 9m Pk2. I expected it to behave very differently from the Pk1, but I found them to be very similar. Of course the Pk2 has a lot more power, and noticably more lift, but in general it was a lot like flying the Pk1. At first I had a LOT of tip tucking going on, especially on one side, but after half an hour or so I tried shortening the B mixer a few centimeters as suggested by Feyd and others, and it seems a little better now. I still get occasional tip tuck though.

I initially did not like the bar, it feels too clunky and heavy compared to the Pk1 bar. On the other hand, the Pk1 bar is a bit too short. Hopefully it will grow on me.

I was absolutely amazed by the small pack size, I don't know what sorcery this is but the 9m Pk2 actually packs down slightly SMALLER than the 6m Pk1! In the not-very-large bag that came with my old Naish LEI I managed to fit both the 9m Pk2, the 6m Pk1, harness, helmet, water bottle and snacks! Happy days are here again! :-D


One thing that has helped me alleviate tip tuck has been to play with the adjustments of the length of the brake lines under the foam tubes up by the bar Sean loves to hate on. For what its worth, of the four Peak-2's I own I seem to get tip tuck most with the 9m too. Careful flying and manipulation of the bar tends to eliminate the issue once the kite is up in the air.

I hope you change the positioning of the brake lines from coming out on the inside of the bar end pieces to coming out the wide way. It will make the kite even more responsive to turning input. I really like my 9m set up wide like this. BTW, the 4m and 6m Peak-2s come with the same narrow bar. The 4 is set up for the brake lines to come out narrow and the 6 wide. The 9m and 12m P2s both come with the same wider bar. Stock, the 9m is set up narrow and the 12m wide. I just like the 9 wide for increased turning response. I don't set up my 4m wide as it has plenty enough spunk as it is! As a high wind kite, fast movement and quick turning comes in spades and doesn't need any spunking up thank you very much.

The 9m P2 is a great work horse and I think you are really going to like it. If you lay your 6m P1 on top of your 9m P2 you will be able to see how the dimensions (and resultant AR) were changed between generations.

Don't listen to what Sean says, the P2 bar is a big improvement over the P1 bar, both in the center hole and the addition of the clam cleat. That clam cleat may save you someday when you need to choke down the 9m in what becomes dangerously high winds after you've got it up in the air. The funny thing is Sean is always going on and on about his gigantic Popeye forearms and grip-of-steel from all his free bar holding street kiting. I'd think a he-man like that could hoist a Peak-2 bar no problem, especially considering the kite will pretty much hold it up in the air for him once he manages to launch. :evil: :moon:

ssayre - 4-2-2016 at 07:27 PM

:lol: All true Steve. I would love to have a p2 4 and 12 meter even with that heavy fancy bar. :)

I need to eat more spinach, my popeye arms have let me down a couple times lately.

Coldsnap - 16-3-2016 at 04:57 AM

Snow season is over here now, I got a few sessions in with both the Pk1 6M and the Pk2 9M. Already planning next season! Some thoughts about the kites:

The Pk1 6M is still by far the most amazing kite I have ever flown. Turns like a stunt kite, depowers to almost nothing, packs a LOT of power for its size. People with way larger kites kept coming up to ask me how in blazes I could go so fast on a kite that small. Best of all, the kite is never scary, even when overpowered. You can do all sorts of mistakes and still feel safe and in control.

The Pk2 9M is a great kite as well, but I was not as impressed as I was with the Pk1, mostly for two reasons:

Just like the Pk1, it turns fast and pulls like it was twice the size when powered. However, it's extremely finicky and I feel I'm going to need many more hours to really get to know all its quirks. I think Flysurfer is walking a very fine line here, the canopy design feels like it's almost on the verge of not working at all. Unless fully powered up, the tips kept folding up on me all the time. Usually just the tips, but sometimes 1/3 of the kite would collapse and I couldn't really figure out why. That's not really entry-level to me, so a little disappointed there.

The depower is still enormous, but it can't be killed completely like the 6m Pk1. As the wind picked up I wanted to switch down to the 6m, but I really underestimated the 9m and had a hard time landing it and keeping it on the ground. After setting it down it would quickly drift into the center, power up and fly off again. I'm never taking this thing out again without a proper way to anchor it.

Lots of good experiences as well: It packs down extremely small, setup/packing is crazy fast (assuming you get the damn thing to stay grounded), and it really flies (and pulls) in almost no wind at all. I was sceptical about the larger and heavier bar at first, but it wasn't a problem at all. It really is a great bar.

Just like the 6m Pk1, the Pk2 can turn like a stunt kite if you pull the balls on the steering lines. You have to watch out for tip collapse though.

All in all, I think the Pk2 9M is a great kite that does what it sets out to do. It just isn't nearly as friendly as the 6M Pk1. It would be interesting to try a 9M Pk1 to see if the extra trouble comes from the change in size or the change in design.

ssayre - 16-3-2016 at 06:12 AM

hey coldsnap, I have the p1 9m. It flies very similarly to the p1 6m except I'm normally flying it in less wind so it does require more steering input but it flies and acts the same. The p1 6m has a snappier feel, but I think that's mainly due to flying it in higher wind.

There might be some things you could do to help with tip tuck. Others will weigh in but you might try to shorten your rear lines by attaching the them a little further down the leaders by way of knot in leader and larks head to it. You can also add pig tail to lengthen the front lines. not sure exactly how to do this. Either option will reduce the amount of depower you have available to you a little. Did you have it trimmed at all? First thing to try is let the trim all the way out if you haven't already.

Again, this is second hand knowledge on the p2 and others with the kite will hopefully chime in. I'm more of a P1 fanatic :)

Windstruck - 16-3-2016 at 09:17 AM

Sean (Ssayre) is smack on. I have some tip tuck issues with my 9m P2 as well and need to fiddle with it a bit. First step IMHO is to fiddle with line lengths under the foam tubes on the two brake lines. Try sliding the foam tubes down the lines away from the bar and moving the larks head knots one knot farther away from the bar.

If that doesn't do the trick then I'd suggest doing a search here on PKF for "tip tuck". There was a thread (maybe even this one several pages back, I don't remember) where folks were providing all sorts of suggestions. Get ready for some lively discussion; there are a few "Peak haters" out there!

Finally, if all else fails you might consider reaching out to Chris (fewd) at Hardwater. I'm assuming here that you didn't buy your Peaks from him. If you did, skip ahead and contact him. He knows a TON about the Peaks.

Good luck!

Coldsnap - 17-3-2016 at 03:16 AM

Yep, I've read all things Peak on this forum and there is lots of good advice including a lot of things I haven't tried yet. After my first session with the Pk2 I moved the back lines to the outside of the bar, which seemed to improve stability and steering a bit. I also tried tweaking the B mixers, which might not have been the best idea after just flying it for 30 minutes. During my snow sessions I didn't make any further changes (because of all the, ehm, snow).

I'm going to take the kite out for a long light wind static session tomorrow and really try to pinpoint the problem. I'll try to reset the mixers as detailed in the Pk2 Manual, and then start over from the beginning, only tweaking one thing at a time with lots of testing inbetween.

Windstruck - 17-3-2016 at 03:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Coldsnap  
Yep, I've read all things Peak on this forum and there is lots of good advice including a lot of things I haven't tried yet. After my first session with the Pk2 I moved the back lines to the outside of the bar, which seemed to improve stability and steering a bit. I also tried tweaking the B mixers, which might not have been the best idea after just flying it for 30 minutes. During my snow sessions I didn't make any further changes (because of all the, ehm, snow).

I'm going to take the kite out for a long light wind static session tomorrow and really try to pinpoint the problem. I'll try to reset the mixers as detailed in the Pk2 Manual, and then start over from the beginning, only tweaking one thing at a time with lots of testing inbetween.


Nice, logical approach. Please share any learnings. I'm always wanting to gain more knowledge and optimize those great, but somewhat finicky, single skins!

Coldsnap - 5-4-2016 at 03:53 AM

Sorry for the delay.
I did a ton of testing and this is the mixer setup that seems to work best. Does this look familiar to you?

Windstruck - 5-4-2016 at 07:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Coldsnap  
Sorry for the delay.
I did a ton of testing and this is the mixer setup that seems to work best. Does this look familiar to you?



I've never personally dared to mess with these. Chris (fewd) from Hardwater would certainly know more. He uses these in his school and has tons of experience. At this point my 9m is the only finicky one. My other three fly great so I'm not messing with them.

Coldsnap - 5-4-2016 at 09:24 AM

I would not have touched them either if there hadn't been a detailed reset description in the manual :)