Power Kite Forum - North American Buggy Association

North American Buggy Association

deanaoxo - 7-3-2007 at 08:54 PM

or North American Buggy Group NABA or NABG? Suggestions?

I think it is time for us to seriously consider organizing ourselves as a group, to get insurance, keep safety records, promote, and in general help each other as a cohesive whole.

I want to open the dialog about this topic, and then have a discussion one of the nights we are together, see if there is enough consensus to make this a reality.

Comments?

aoxomoxoa

Pablo - 7-3-2007 at 09:04 PM

Interested, would it include us Canucks?

kitemaker4 - 7-3-2007 at 09:09 PM

Count me in. Let me know if I can help in any way.

Susan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meter
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

Kiteboarder2B - 7-3-2007 at 11:04 PM

This is just a personal opinion, alliance would be a good word for the end, and I say end because I am gonna bring up that I and others will say, What about the others?" so I am sure "traction sports" or like-wise will be brought up. I can't say for sure there what I think, but "Group" or "Alliance" I think conveys what we represent the best.

I say "Alliance" because it represents what we want, if this is indeed what we want,no? Assuming we do want this, then we are allies looking for allies right?
The dictionary defines alliance in many ways, such as
-A formal agreement establishing such an association, especially an international treaty of friendship.

notice the mention of association,which to me has always sounded commercial, with the friendship tie-in?

-A connection based on kinship, marriage, or common interest; a bond or tie

Again, kinship,bonds and ties, things I've all read about here though I've never met you guys.

-The act of becoming allied or the condition of being allied:
Something the alliance will need to do with government and each other, to maintain a playground for the furutre generations.

But one thing about a "Group", "Alliance,"Association", or what-have-you.....

"Union may be strength, but it is mere blind brute strength unless wisely directed"- Samuel Butler

Without a strong leader this is all moot.

So whether it be North American Buggy Alliance or American Wind Traction Alliance, My two cents worth is going in the "Alliance" coffer.

P.S. I won't be able to camp most likely, so getting this off now.

Evotz - 7-3-2007 at 11:18 PM

The concept sounds solid, the potential benifits could be very postive for everyone involve.

I do not think that you need to worry about name infringement but you might consider the associated organizations with similar or identical acronyms.

NAKA: North American Buggy Association is also:
North American Butterfly Association
National Adult Baseball Association
National Association of Black Accountants
North American Broadcasters Association
National Association of Buyers Agents
NABA Radio 93.1fm
North American Boxing Association
North American Bullriding Association
Native American Business Alliance
National Association Breweriana Advertising, Beer Advertisers!

NABG: North American Buggy Group is also:
Netherlands-American Business Group of New England

NAKB: North American Kite Buggy is also:
General Netherlands Inspection Service of Woody Nursery Stock (How, I do not know - can't speak Dutch???)

NAKBA: North American Kite Buggy Association is also:
NAKBA (cataclysm): Organization dedicated to the commemoration of the capital events in Palestine history

NABE: North American Buggy Enthusiast is also:
National Association for Bilingual Education
National Association for Business Economics

NAKBE North American Kite Buggy Enthusiasts
Nakbe: is a ancient Mayan city

BENA: Buggy Enthusiast of North America (Better then Beano I guess!)

KBANA: Kite Buggy Association of North America (Acronym at least has a ‘ring’ to it – just don’t ever merge with the Kiting Organization and Promotional Association! Then it would become the KOPA KABANA!

Just some random thoughts..... :rolleyes:

deanaoxo - 7-3-2007 at 11:54 PM

I'm leaning towards something that encompasses all kite traction, so am not wedded to the buggy term. It's just the name we have now, and a starting place.

How many people even realize that it is homage to George Po#@%$#!? Worthy, no doubt, but it may not convey that which we are about.

So, to sum up: Wind, Kites, Traction, sharing of the knowledge and art as well as the strength through union.

and of course, that nasty of nastiness, insurance.

Keep this discussion going, so far, very lively and productive.

muchaoxo~!

DesertDrew - 8-3-2007 at 03:14 AM

Here's 1 cent...

NATSA

North American Traction Sports Association (or Alliance)

Here's another...

NATSS

North American Traction Sports Society

And one more...

No matter what it's called, all of the various traction sports need to be included. The more members a group has, the more power they can muster.

Just my 3 cents worth.

Desert Drew

deanaoxo - 8-3-2007 at 09:38 AM

North American Kite Traction Association

suggested by a moose.....

oxo

kitemaker4 - 8-3-2007 at 11:34 AM

Are we including kite surfers also. I think the more we can get to join the group the better when it comes to getting insurance.

Susan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meter
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

Pablo - 8-3-2007 at 07:56 PM

Any wisdom in joining our group to any pre-existing surf type of association?

jellis - 9-3-2007 at 11:14 AM

It is about time..... Call it what you will just call it. In the past we tagged along with other kite groups for insurance and guidance, but these groups did not always operate in our best inerest. Now is the time for us to stand on our on feet and organize. A democatic group with leaders that look out for our intersts.
I would hope these officials could be elected by the membership of this group. A board of directors, President, Vice President, Secretary, treasurer etc etc, will be needed I suppose. The more buggiers involved, the better the representation of all of us will be. This will be a great thing for buggiers and I am totally excited that we are finally heading toward that goal, representation.....
Call it what you will, I want to help.
Jon Ellis

geokite - 9-3-2007 at 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pablo
Any wisdom in joining our group to any pre-existing surf type of association?

Even better and *more* inclusive is joining up with a pre-existing kite association!! Ya!!

(where does it stop?)

Steve

deanaoxo - 9-3-2007 at 11:25 AM

Rabble Rouser!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by geokite

Quote:

Originally posted by Pablo
Any wisdom in joining our group to any pre-existing surf type of association?

Even better and *more* inclusive is joining up with a pre-existing kite association!! Ya!!

(where does it stop?)

Steve

action jackson - 9-3-2007 at 02:32 PM

I nominate Jon Ellis as El Presidente...........................aj

Nice revival!

Lack-O-Slack - 9-3-2007 at 04:25 PM

Okay, so now that this is all being thrown back on the table, can it work this time?

We've been here before, folks, and we had a "Traction Committee" on the AKA, which went nowhere, accomplished nothing on the insurance issue, and degenerated into arguments over racing versus non-racing, rules versus no rules, and generally ignored most other traction kiting forms (or did they ignore us?). Territorial squabbles, event location and rules squabbles, semantics squabbles... divided, we fell.

This will take some serious commitment from people who don't work a 40-60 hour week and can spare the time and energy to do the "footwork", compile the documents, disseminate information, track enrollment and memberships, handle the cash involved, facilitate web space and keep it current, and on and on and on...

I believe this DOES need to happen, and that access and exclusion issues will become more and more serious in the coming years, as the five land management agencies in the U.S. begin "partnering" with private enterprise to control our access to and usage of our public lands. If we're a small, voiceless bunch of "enthusiasts", we will not be heard, or even acknowledged. And, we're in competition with the largest "wreck-reation" lobby in the nation... the ARC (American Recreation Coalition), representing all of the motorized forms of eco-destruction such as dune buggies, dirt bikes, power boats, and off-road vehicles.

Our government, (and most sports), today, are about one thing.. money. And the guy who builds a $60,000 sand rail, and wants someplace to run it, gets all the attention. We, with our $700.00 kite buggies, aren't worth listening to; we camp cheaply, don't require high-dollar replacement parts, engines, tires, and batteries, don't attract huge crowds of idle lookie-loos to our events, nor do we contribute millions to the campaigns of land-grabbers like Richard Pombo and cronies in Washington D.C.

The only way we're going to be successful in this endeavor is:

1. Put principles BEFORE personalities.

2. Draft our "manifesto" or "charter", then stick to it, refining as we go.

3. Solicit cold, hard CASH from every member, giving until it hurts, at least at first.

4. Elect "cool heads" and strong negotiators to represent our interests with entities like BLM, US Forest Service, and other "land management" agencies.

5. Practice "ambassadorship" at each and every encounter with public, law enforcement, land management, and newcomers to our sport.

6. Brand ourselves, then market, market, market our memberships to every traction kiter we see, to swell our numbers enough to make a difference in the minds of decision-makers.

Being a warm, fuzzy "buggy family" is something we all enjoy, but it doesn't open doors or minds, where the proverbial rubber meets the road. Nowadays, it seems like only cold, hard cash can do that, or else numbers too large to ignore, neither of which we've got, at the present time.

Not trying to be defeatist, here, but I've spent countless hours cogitating on this whole issue, and much discussion 'round buggy-town, too, and there's no "magic bullet" except a lot of hard, unrewarded work. Ask the Mayor... he was party to many of the discussions.

At last gasp, a couple of folks committed to a draft "manifesto", to state the purpose and scope of such an "organization" attempt, as a starting point to further discussion and action. Corey-Lama was one of those participants, and I can't remember who the other party was... was it Sean?

Anyway, my $0.02 has been dropped in the bucket.

-Dooley :moon:

I think, I want....

Lack-O-Slack - 9-3-2007 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by deanaoxo

I think it is time for us to seriously consider organizing ourselves as a group, to get insurance, keep safety records, promote, and in general help each other as a cohesive whole.

I want to open the dialog about this topic, and then have a discussion one of the nights we are together, see if there is enough consensus to make this a reality.

There is no "I" in NABX...

'Twould be nice, Dean, if you would put aside your ego just enough to acknowledge that someone else, many, many months ago attempted to "open the discussion" of this topic, and posted many, many thoughts and proposals in this forum, and received many responses, suggestions, and commitments.

Funny, how suddenly you throw this out as though it were something no one thought of, until YOU did.

Repeat after me.... WE ARE FAMILY. Acknowledge the rest of us, and you'll find many more allies in your efforts.

Sorry if I let a little hurt feelings show, but it's not nice to be steamrollered, and have one's efforts and contributions ignored.

I'll choose to believe you just weren't thinking... and wonder if I'll be invited to the discussions...

-Dooley :moon:

krocdoc - 9-3-2007 at 06:07 PM

i'm all for it only if we can get a breakthrough to fully support our npw pilots in the wild.... come on people, stand up, raise a voice loudly, go green, support our npw pilots.... they deserve our support....

practicing my shot car racing and i just lost.....

goreo95033 - 9-3-2007 at 07:44 PM

I'm with jellis: "call it what you want, just call it." I'm in.

jellis - 10-3-2007 at 01:16 PM

Dooley I am sorry you think John Ruggiero, Glenn Pedro, Rick and Sarah McGaffey, Troy Gunn, Richard Ridgeway, Claxton Adrian Thompson, Keith Anderson, Dave Kennedy, Bob Hogan and myself "accomplished nothing and went no where". We also brought you on the committee and helped get you the first aid kit from the AKA that you kept and did not return. The traction committee received many accolades and praises for our accomplishments and being the most active AKA Traction committee ever, (this was from the AKA president Dave Gomberg at the time) and I will debate with you at NABX in front of every buggier there on this point.
We were all volunteers that tried to do our best for our sport, only to be kicked in the gut repeatedly by folks. You the very person that I (at the time, AKA Traction Committee Chairman) started the fund to help you with your legal buggy troubles you had. Just one of the many "went nowhere" projects we did.
If in the future, if we could be constructive and look forward to the success with the North American Buggy Association and stop the blame game from the past, that would be refreshing. In my opinion we must recognize all aspects of our sport, from freestyle to just for the fun of it, to enduro or circuit racers, to pimp my ride buggiers, to land boarders etc etc. We all should have a say in this club that will represent us equally.
I am a buggy soldier looking for victory for this buggy group's future.

Jon Ellis

kitemaker4 - 10-3-2007 at 05:50 PM

Wow such great input already. Everyone is so positive.

Susan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meter
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

ripsessionkites - 10-3-2007 at 08:27 PM

I'm on board, to help with anything.

Jon E. for Pres, Dean for Vice, Susan for Sec.???

Thats my vote.

Whatever happened to the Northwest Buggy Assc.???

deanaoxo - 10-3-2007 at 11:36 PM

Oops. Sorry. If some how or another i, that's me, dean, hurt someone's feelings, i assure you that, while thoughtless at times, and excited at other times, out of it some, and barely with it,other times, i did not, and do not mean to offend.

In fact, when i mean to offend, you will very much know it.

So, how bout it? Ready to talk? With everyone in the same tent? Think we can do it?

The forum is being provided, the people are lining up, and the event will be chaired.

I suggest a meeting Weds night in the tent, and if we need to another later in the week if there is interest.

I'll be there, hope you will be as well.

Asking your forgiveness in advance for speaking in the first person.

someaoxostill~!

CHANNIN75 - 12-3-2007 at 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jellis
Dooley I am sorry you think John Ruggiero, Glenn Pedro, Rick and Sarah McGaffey, Troy Gunn, Richard Ridgeway, Claxton Adrian Thompson, Keith Anderson, Dave Kennedy, Bob Hogan and myself "accomplished nothing and went no where". We also brought you on the committee and helped get you the first aid kit from the AKA that you kept and did not return. The traction committee received many accolades and praises for our accomplishments and being the most active AKA Traction committee ever, (this was from the AKA president Dave Gomberg at the time) and I will debate with you at NABX in front of every buggier there on this point.
We were all volunteers that tried to do our best for our sport, only to be kicked in the gut repeatedly by folks. You the very person that I (at the time, AKA Traction Committee Chairman) started the fund to help you with your legal buggy troubles you had. Just one of the many "went nowhere" projects we did.
If in the future, if we could be constructive and look forward to the success with the North American Buggy Association and stop the blame game from the past, that would be refreshing. In my opinion we must recognize all aspects of our sport, from freestyle to just for the fun of it, to enduro or circuit racers, to pimp my ride buggiers, to land boarders etc etc. We all should have a say in this club that will represent us equally.
I am a buggy soldier looking for victory for this buggy group's future.

Jon Ellis

Just my own 2 cents for what it is worth.....I havent been around as long as most.....So again maybe I dont even have the right to have any type of input....
But let me say this..... the past is what it is the past......
I think its time to maybe to start to look toward our future....
everybody makes mistakes.....and a new group will have growing pains......
But I have 100% faith and trust that are family will grow and become even more greater than it is today.....

So My Wonderful Buggy Family.....I think if we just keep to the simple basic rule of that all are welcome.....Which from last I checked has always been the case
:spin:

And even though we sometimes may disagree with one another.....just remember that life on the Playa is to short as it is for Family Feuds

Counting down day till I get to be at the Reunion

Flyin High
Shannon:singing::singing:

Shoulda, woulda, coulda...

Lack-O-Slack - 12-3-2007 at 09:35 AM

Okay, gang, time for me to eat some crow, perhaps.

I let my ego get "offended" and my feelings hurt, because this thread came off as a new and original instance of what I felt was a conversation already started and up and going, from over a year ago.

And Dean, your "first person" lead-off of this thread did tweak my head a bit; I felt like all the previous contributions were ignored, and that now, the idea of "organizing" was being picked up by someone else and "originated", once again.

And all you guys, I hope, know that my intentions are for the group, not for myself, so why should it matter who stimulates the thinking and actions? I forgot that, in the moment of being "miffed", and forgot the group, and I'll say right here that I regret the tone of my message to Dean. Dean, I apologize.

To John Ellis... you're correct.... there were many hours of good effort put out by the "Traction Committee", and I do still carry the AKA First Aid Kit to every event with me, and it's been put to good use, several times at last year's NABX, treating some "playa rash", and minor cuts and stuff, so I think it's still a real good idea to have it on hand. I don't use the supplies from it for my personal cuts and scrapes, either... I get my own band-aids for that. I did, however, tuck it under my arm at a traffic accident, not long back, thinking it would be needed, but the fire dept. got there first.

I think we all can see that one of the problems we face as "organizers" of an American buggy "club" or "association" is just what my own over-reaction illlustrates... it's easy to put personalities before principles, in these efforts, and forget that what we feel proud of, or possessive of, or what we feel we are responsible for, can get in the way of the good of the whole, and hurt feelings, wounded pride, or "territorial" squabbles can take us away from the goal. I'm just as prone to those attitudes as anyone, so it seems, and in a moment of ego, I let it show in a public forum, and now must take my lumps. Perhaps Claxton Thompson is the best example among us of the kind of "volunteerism" to which we all should aspire... I've seen the man working his ass off, year after year, never complaining, never taking credit, always taking care of business first, and sometimes forgetting that he, too, came to buggy!

The important thing, illustrated here, is that the lumps we all may have coming, from time to time, are FAMILY lumps, and we can bring each other back to the goal, back to the real issues, and back to the group, without tearing each other a new one, no matter how much one of us may deserve it. That's no accident, and it speaks volumes about the cohesiveness we can exhibit when it's needed.

So again, my apology to the group for putting wounded pride before the interests of the "family".

It would be nice if we could consolidate this thread, and include all the contributions from last year; the talk of a "manifesto", stating the purpose and scope of our effort, and putting us, hopefully, all on the same page, going forward. And I truly don't care who or what stimulates the discussion and pushes it down the road toward solutions, as long as it doesn't just wither and die when the winds abate for another year.

As John Ellis posted here, I owe a HUGE debt of gratitude to the efforts of this "Buggy Family", and I hope no one here thinks I am ungrateful, just because I possess an ego and an "inner child" every bit as active and agressive as most of this group; the trick, I guess, is letting our love of the sport and the special "family" feelings we have for one another carry us past the little divisions, racer versus cruiser, boarder versus buggier, kite-surfer versus land-traction enthusiast, kite business owner versus kite customer.

We all play with wind, we all need open spaces and beaches and parks to play in, and we're all, equally, threatened by the overcrowding and usage issues and land management issues that we see cropping up, more and more frequently, across this great nation of ours. I think our potential for uniting and standing together to face these problems can carry us through... hell, if the Brits can put together a national buggy club with real clout, I'd hate to think we couldn't!

So if y'all can accept my apology for being side-tracked and pissing in the sand to mark "my" territory, then its onward and upward, and perhaps I'll get the opportunity to give back some small portion of what all of YOU gave me, when the chips were down.

Good onya, John Ellis, for the reminder I guess I needed... I never intended to minimize the efforts of you and the rest of AKA's Traction Committee.

-Dooley :moon:

kitemaker4 - 12-3-2007 at 10:43 AM

Looking forward to our first meeting. It can only get better.

Susan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meter
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

Wind Power

ickyrex - 12-3-2007 at 10:57 AM

I would suggest that the group encompass all "wind powered" activities.
As a "former" buggier, I have enjoyed the inclusion in the events as a landsailer and would regret having to not participate if the group was limited to kite traction only.
If we can get insurance and other benefits, it would be prudent to include all wind powered activities. As you may know, I have encouraged Blokaters to join us on the Playa for our event and expect the numbers to grow. BTW, the "godfather" Fran Gramkowski has now converted to the Blokart as well. We have the opportunity to expand our family, let's be as inclusive as possible.
See y'all on the Playa.
Jason:singing:

bugymangp - 12-3-2007 at 12:16 PM

hey jason
you will always be a buggier in my eyes. LOL

CHANNIN75 - 12-3-2007 at 02:51 PM

Dooley you big old softy.....lol......just remember that as long as "family" sticks together.....there isnt anything that we cant do:singing::singing:

Flyin High
Shannon:D

krocdoc - 12-3-2007 at 08:38 PM

what would npw pilot do?

jonesing4wind - 12-3-2007 at 09:18 PM

Yes, Dooley, I was one of those present who commited to draft a manifesto. And in my defense, I actually put pen to paper, but was rather discouraged by what came out. Not that I couldnt do it, but I would need a lot of input from veteran buggiers and those who actually have experience organizing these events. I am willing to share what dribbled onto the paper, with the understanding that it was more a brainstorming session and not so much drafting a manifesto.....

I wonder about the formation a partnership with NALSA instead of AKA..... I hope I dont offend here, but the way I see it is that we have more in common with our fixed mast friends than stick and fighter kite fliers.....

What do they do for insurance/dues/events/and all the BLM issues that go along with our sport? Can we take any points from their documents/experiences? I dont even know who or how they are organized. Maybe there are enough crossover fliers to garner some interest in swelling their numbers in one fell swoop... after all, we are class 8 land yachts!

COmments?

Seany

jellis - 13-3-2007 at 11:20 AM

Hey Doodey I still love ya no matter what, that's what families do.
Seany we tried to get in touch with NASLA and they did not return any of the calls, emails or a letter we sent requesting membership for buggiers. Things change and we could try again.
In my opinion buggiers need an organization to represent us, as the land sailors did not want us around, nor did the kite boarders (water), and I must admit even the AKA was not able to help us in the end. I would not be apposed to land boarders, land sailors, etc etc being a part of this new group, but it is time we had an organization that stands up for the buggiers, period.
2 more cents
Jon Ellis

DrewP - 14-3-2007 at 10:01 AM

Question for the NABX members,
Does Dooley's comments about dirt bikes, motocross, snowmobiles, quads, etc, as "wreck-reation" and "eco-destruction" represent the common attitudes of NABX members?
DrewP

ickyrex - 14-3-2007 at 10:03 AM

I can act as a liason to NALSA if necessary. I found myself in that unfortunate situation with the Blokarters.
Look how that turned out, they would rather hang with us! They are a somewhat closed insular family and don't seem to want to grow the membership. That being said, they are a fine bunch of friendly people on the whole and are well organized. They are a racing organization and are a bit more serious that us. I will be arriving @ Ivanpah on the 29th while the NALSA event is going on and will "feel them out" on this issue if you guys are serious.
Fran has a bit of experience with them as well and can offer his opinions.
Jason :thumbup:

deanaoxo - 14-3-2007 at 11:02 AM

Quote:

I wish i had time to go into all the in's and out's of why this won't work.

We work closely with this group every year, and this year, for one year only, we are using the same insurance company they use. As soon as the guy who writes it gets a chance to review with the parent company the rules, kites will be banned. This is the same group who made sure kites were banned in the marine group several years ago when they learned of the Outleader spinnaker replacement kite. Ban the kites!!!!

This is a huge, complex problem that will not take throwing a few ideas at and walking away from.

Much thought will have to be put into this whole scheme.

Is the time ripe?? I and many of you say yes.

Expect our first meeting Weds!!!

aoxo~!

I wonder about the formation a partnership with NALSA instead of AKA..... I hope I dont offend here, but the way I see it is that we have more in common with our fixed mast friends than stick and fighter kite fliers.....

What do they do for insurance/dues/events/and all the BLM issues that go along with our sport? Can we take any points from their documents/experiences? I dont even know who or how they are organized. Maybe there are enough crossover fliers to garner some interest in swelling their numbers in one fell swoop... after all, we are class 8 land yachts!

COmments?

Seany

Two issues to address...

Lack-O-Slack - 14-3-2007 at 07:03 PM

1. My opinion and characterization of motorized off-road "sports" as "wreck-reation" is my own, and does not represent, as far as I know, the opinion of anyone other than myself, and several million other eco-heads who have seen the destruction of California's Mojave Desert at Glamis, Ocotillo, Dumont, and literally every venue that's been opened to proponents of off-road land "use" for motorized hobbies. These areas quickly become dead, vegetation-less, dust bowls through bad management and extreme over-use, and the BLM and other agencies, sorely under-funded, seem to have given up and just chosen to ignore the long-term consequence of this practice. Where signs dictate "Stay on Trails", you can find countless examples of disobedience of these controls, and ugly scars and destruction of the landscape. Off-roaders will often destroy watersheds and creekbeds, causing untold "downstream" damage to vegetation, wildlife, and beautiful scenery, just for the thrill of attempting a hill climb up a waterfall. I've seen these things, over and over, all over California. My fellow Sierra Club members and friends on the San Diego County Sheriff's Search and Rescue can tell many, many anecdotes of the horrible losses of life and limb that occur each weekend in each of these venues, due to alcohol abuse mixed with too-fast, too-powerful toys in the hands of morons with limited skills. Does that mean every off-roader is a moron? No. But it does indicate that management of these venues is sorely lacking, and that the ARC (American Recreation Coalition), their HUGE lobby in Washington D.C., is able to guarantee their continued access to resources, regardless of the abuses, dangers, and documented fatalities and injuries, while we, the small voice in the wilderness seeking to use the same resources without damaging them, killing anyone, or costing taxpayers millions in increased insurance premiums, medical cost recoveries, and permanent environmental consequences, are not heard at all, and are so easily brushed off the resource in favor of pure PROFIT from the ARC constituents. I make no bones about it... I don't go to the desert to experience roaring engines, flying dirt, and drunken fools... but when you visit El Mirage on a weekend these days, that's all you'll see and hear. So, yes, I'm motor-sports intolerant, and if someone brings these toys to Buggy Town, they'll most likely find I'm not alone. What we do is eco-friendly... motorized craft in the wilderness are, usually, NOT. Drive around El Mirage and take a look at how many protected Joshua Trees, one of which memorializes our friend Dave Kennedy, have been hammered and destroyed by "wheelies" up against them, by having their root systems exposed by spinning knobbies, and then notice, while buggying at Elmer's, how the surface looks and feels today, compared to just three or so years ago. I acknowledge that the gear-heads are in the majority... Americans want "entertainment" that requires just the push of a button and ZOOM! Learning to wrestle with the wind or develop sailing skills just isn't what the average desert user wants, and the majority rules, so we lose our quiet, flat, windy spaces to them. They're not bad people... they're just not thinking about the future, or the land, or the value of the species whose habitat they destroy, and we will all pay for this thoughtlessness. A sad truth. So okay, I'm a tree-hugger and I love Spotted Owls more than Yamahas.

2. I, too, though of NALSA as another possible alternative for formation of a more influential lobby and association for our wind-powered pleasures; they won't, however, embrace all forms of traction kiting as would the AKA, or our own new organisation, so it's probably barking up the wrong tree, in my view. Some with more familiarity with the NALSA folks seem to echo this conclusion. We shall see, yes?

P.S. No offense to those of you who ride dirt bikes in the desert... you have a powerful ally in Washington D.C., you spend lots of money on your toys, so you're well represented and entitled, as much as any buggy pilot or landsailer, to use the resources made available to you. I can only hope you swing wide of others' camp sites, avoid running over every living thing you see, and use the trails and designated areas in compliance with what regulations exist, and pack out your trash, so that there's some chance of preserving YOUR resources and ours, long term. Where will our grandchildren play?

kitemaker4 - 14-3-2007 at 07:35 PM

Well said Dooley. I agree with everything you say. Even stuck here on the gulf coast I think about things that you talked about. It just takes a few to mess it up for all of us. I have heard that there has not been any rain and everything is real dry. It will be intresting to see how Elmers has changed since I was there last year for the pre-event.

Susan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meters
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

DrewP - 14-3-2007 at 08:19 PM

Thank you for your response, looking for many others to respond and post their views on this.

deanaoxo - 14-3-2007 at 09:07 PM

Without characterizing anyone, i'd like to thing we, us, those who worship the wind, are for something, not against anything.

Sure, we're people. Our group is so diverse, we have Dooley on one end, Corey on the other, and people like Jose, Ron, Peter, Andrew, in the middle, who'd a thunk it?

So, the conversation i've helped continue(kudos guys, move on)is about what we, as a group, can do to help ourselves. There is strength in numbers. Organization is what made this country great.

I still believe in freedom, and flying a kite, going fast, gets me there pretty quick. There are a lot of folks however, who just don't get us. We're different. We're few. We're fast and silent. and some people who fly kites, yell at people. Not good.

So, are we for the wind? Are we for change for the better? Insurance? Injury tracking? Incident reports? Racing(dean don't go there)? or just want to get together to share our experience. Whatever the group or induhvidual experience, i for one think it could be better if we had a national organization.

Weds.

aoxo

DrewP - 15-3-2007 at 12:12 AM

Count me out, as a member and as a financial contributor. I will buggy alone.
There are really good people on this forum, the vast majority are in kiting. I can say the exact same thing about the off road community, the vast majority are great people out having fun. But, what really gets me, after having a post pulled by doomwheels due to "flaming", yet they allow others to post highly flammable messages without consequence, must mean they agree with Dooley (mr. "corporate monsters", "morons", wreck-reation") and dont agree with me. Fine. But, it has cost you money, understand that.
So, instead of spending time and money going to NABX and financially supporting your organization, I wrote a check to ARC today. IF, IF I do come to NABX, I will leave my buggy at home and bring my bike instead.

DrewP - 15-3-2007 at 12:13 AM

PS, I still love me kites, just not crazy about the buggy crowd right now.

jonesing4wind - 15-3-2007 at 06:33 AM

In light of the last few comments about a partnership with NALSA, maybe we would best do it on our own. Establish a board, acquire insurance, write a document/vision statement/manifesto all on our own. Sure, it may take more work than simply getting folded into a larger organization, but there certainly, obviously, will be benifits. We get to do it OUR way. Once we have this thing established, maybe then we can form a greater alliance of wind powered enthusiasts that could encompass the AKA, NALSA, BloKarts, and kitesurfers. Also, once we are functioning as a unit, other groups (NALSA, AKA, etc) may attach more weight when considering a partnership with us. But that would be a ways off. So I am beginning to see the logic, maybe even wisdom in creating a cohesive group that is dedicated to buggies/ATBs. Our numbers are small, but when united, we will have a voice and we can and will be heard. I think maybe the first thing to do would be to get a list of everyone who buggies together, so that we can get a fairly accurate representation of how many people we are talking about. I really have no idea how many people buggy/ATB in NoAm. 500? 1000? 5000?

Another task that should be among the first is set a list of goals, maybe even incorporate those goals into our vision statment or manifesto. Please add to this or modify these as you see fit:
1. Insurance for all members of the club
2. Work toward continued access to our lovely lakebeds and beaches
3. Promote our sport to John Q Pubic
4. Publish (via email, preferably) a quarterly or semi-annual newsletter updating members on current issues and activities
5. ??????

There have been other threads like this one started years ago. I dont recall that the previous threads had nearly the interest that this one does. That gives me hope that we have maybe reached the time/allignment of the stars/critical mass or what-have-you necessary to make it happen this time.:singing:

Looking forward to our Wednesday night meeting almost as much as the whole trip!! 18 days and counting!!!

Seany

ickyrex - 15-3-2007 at 09:44 AM

Drew,
Motorized off-road users are why I will never return to El mirage on a weekend. Trying to "share" the playa with them is near impossible. Unpleasant is too much of an understatement for the lack of consideration and danger presented by those whi I have seen on motorized vehicles there.
That is why I will spend my time on Ivanpah, where motorized vehicles are prohibited from the lakebed. If you bring your bike to Ivanpah, keep it off the Playa.

jellis - 15-3-2007 at 09:51 AM

"Racing(dean don't go there)?" now there is a non bias approach that represents us all.
jellis

kitemaker4 - 15-3-2007 at 10:03 AM

DrewP

Have you been to Elmers? I know of the dangers and destruction from last year attending the pre-event.

Susan

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meters
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

sockhat - 15-3-2007 at 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lack-O-Slack
1. My opinion and characterization of motorized off-road "sports" as "wreck-reation" is my own, and does not represent, as far as I know, the opinion of anyone other than myself, and several million other eco-heads who have seen the destruction of California's Mojave Desert at Glamis, Ocotillo, Dumont, and literally every venue that's been opened to proponents of off-road land "use" for motorized hobbies. These areas quickly become dead, vegetation-less, dust bowls through bad management and extreme over-use, and the BLM and other agencies, sorely under-funded, seem to have given up and just chosen to ignore the long-term consequence of this practice. Where signs dictate "Stay on Trails", you can find countless examples of disobedience of these controls, and ugly scars and destruction of the landscape. Off-roaders will often destroy watersheds and creekbeds, causing untold "downstream" damage to vegetation, wildlife, and beautiful scenery, just for the thrill of attempting a hill climb up a waterfall. I've seen these things, over and over, all over California. My fellow Sierra Club members and friends on the San Diego County Sheriff's Search and Rescue can tell many, many anecdotes of the horrible losses of life and limb that occur each weekend in each of these venues, due to alcohol abuse mixed with too-fast, too-powerful toys in the hands of morons with limited skills. Does that mean every off-roader is a moron? No. But it does indicate that management of these venues is sorely lacking, and that the ARC (American Recreation Coalition), their HUGE lobby in Washington D.C., is able to guarantee their continued access to resources, regardless of the abuses, dangers, and documented fatalities and injuries, while we, the small voice in the wilderness seeking to use the same resources without damaging them, killing anyone, or costing taxpayers millions in increased insurance premiums, medical cost recoveries, and permanent environmental consequences, are not heard at all, and are so easily brushed off the resource in favor of pure PROFIT from the ARC constituents. I make no bones about it... I don't go to the desert to experience roaring engines, flying dirt, and drunken fools... but when you visit El Mirage on a weekend these days, that's all you'll see and hear. So, yes, I'm motor-sports intolerant, and if someone brings these toys to Buggy Town, they'll most likely find I'm not alone. What we do is eco-friendly... motorized craft in the wilderness are, usually, NOT. Drive around El Mirage and take a look at how many protected Joshua Trees, one of which memorializes our friend Dave Kennedy, have been hammered and destroyed by "wheelies" up against them, by having their root systems exposed by spinning knobbies, and then notice, while buggying at Elmer's, how the surface looks and feels today, compared to just three or so years ago. I acknowledge that the gear-heads are in the majority... Americans want "entertainment" that requires just the push of a button and ZOOM! Learning to wrestle with the wind or develop sailing skills just isn't what the average desert user wants, and the majority rules, so we lose our quiet, flat, windy spaces to them. They're not bad people... they're just not thinking about the future, or the land, or the value of the species whose habitat they destroy, and we will all pay for this thoughtlessness. A sad truth. So okay, I'm a tree-hugger and I love Spotted Owls more than Yamahas.

I couldn't agree more, Dooley, you hit the nail on the head....And I'm with you!

There are very few places for us already- maybee that's part of the reason people come from every where to play on these great lakebeds.

I know that every single time I want to have an awesome session, I have to drive at least 3 & 1/2 hours to an awesome spot.

I am sure as hell not ready, or willing, to hand our playas over to rutt diggin' , mud slingin', motor vehicles.

It doesn't make them bad people, but there are better places for dirt bikes, and 4x4s than a dry lake!

SMOOTH WINDS!!!!
Rob

Lets organize the meeting

frangram - 15-3-2007 at 05:23 PM

We need to have a meeting outline and establish the goals that the group needs to accomplish at our Ivanpah event this year.
What is the primary reason for forming an organization?
1. Insurance for;
A. Events
B. Individual

The lack of insurance for the sport is the biggest factor preventing the growth of kite buggying. It almost prevented NABx from taking place this year.

What do we have to do to incorporate as non profit?
What is it going to cost?
What is the insurance going to cost?
What information do we need to gather to present to insurance companies to get price quotes?

I think if we can accomplish these goals this year we have a good starting point to expand from.

Fran
:singing::singing::singing::singing::singing:

To DrewP... I'm sorry to see your response

Lack-O-Slack - 15-3-2007 at 06:53 PM

DrewP:

I'm truly sorry that you have reacted so strongly in the negative to my opposing viewpoint on the motorized recreation issue.

Here are a few comments I hope you'll read and consider:

I don't believe my point of view is "right" or the "only" one... it's what I've arrived at, after observation, visitation, cogitation, and experience of the places and personalities who congregate in the Mojave Off-Road areas. I'm sure, to every strong proponent of ARC's agenda, I'm the "enemy". But that's very shortsighted, on their part, since it's going to take ALL of us, at this point in our nation's political agenda, to save these areas for ALL of our use.

I don't think off-roaders should be excluded from desert playgrounds... I rode nothing but a motorcycle for my first 20 years of driving, only keeping a car around for rainy days. My father was an Indian flat-track racer in 1949, and I still treasure my photo of him turning "doughnuts" on his big Indian, on a vacant lot in Culver City in 1950. I do, however, think that real management is needed in the Mojave, and that off-road vehicles should be restricted from dry lakebeds that are used by aircraft, sailcraft, and radio-controlled recreationists.

We rely on a smooth, flat surface, and there's certainly no "thrill" in speeding around a perfectly flat surface on a bike made for jumping, climbing, and extreme riding techniques.

People are taking their motorized toys to the dry lakes because it's easy, close to home, they can turn the kids loose and not worry about them falling off a cliff, and if you observe how things go out on El Mirage, you'll quickly see that Mom and Pop are usually not far from the beer cooler, or the air-conditioned motor-home. This is another form of "recreation" I find hard to fathom... driving a couple hundred miles to sit in air-conditioned comfort, watching TV, and sending your kids off to annoy someone else. It just doesn't make sense in a world where fuel shortages, global warming, and environmental destruction are already beyond our weak attempts to affect a cure. But hey, nobody ever accused the American public of sporting an excess of common sense, now, did they? <grin>

So, DrewP, I bear you and your fellow motorsports enthusiasts no ill will... instead I reserve my ire for the so-called "managers" of our public lands who are failing, miserably, to "manage" anything. They point quickly to "underfunding" as the cause of their ineffectual efforts, but I've noticed they're all driving brand-new Ford F-150's with leather seats, all the extras, power everything, and a full tank of gas. Is that really necessary? I remember when Forest Service Rangers were driving reconditioned, surplus Army vehicles, and keeping them running and useful for many years, but now my taxes are buying them current model-year, brand-new vehicles, better than my own. Somebody's asleep at the budget, methinks.

Off-Roaders deserve places to play just as much as we do, but the nature of their sport is that it damages the environment, no less than do freeways, deisel freight hauling, commercial aircraft, and oversized, gas-hog SUV's. All forms of motorized recreation will, one day, have to be curtailed, as the environment just won't sustain continued growth of such alternatives. If "hybrid" or electric off-roaders are built, then there will be alternatives that will work, perhaps. God knows a good-running, well-tuned motorcycle is far less impactful than the motorhome that hauled it out to the desert, at least until the rider leaves the approved trails and starts tearing up sections designated as "off limits". Unfortunately, this happens way too often, and there's not enough enforcement to stop it.

My buddy on the Sheriff's Search and Rescue actually busted 6 riders, recently, in the Corrizo Impact Area, adjacent to Anza Borrego State Park, a closed desert area full of unexploded ordnance from WWII... he probably saved their lives, and all they could do was whine about how "unfair" it was that they had to go play in the crowded venue at Ocotillo, instead of roaming free amongst the 5,000-pound bombs. Sheesh!

So, DrewP, I'm sorry to hear you won't come to NABX... if we can't play together despite our different points of view, how can we ever hope to get our nation's political leadership back on track, and learn to share the desert in new and supportive ways?

I mean, what if we all just agreed, in the case of El Mirage, that the gear-heads would stay off the playa, and the kite buggies and landsailers would stay off the hill-climbs, jumps, and trails to the north and east of the lake, and that no motorized toy would be operated closer than 500 feet from any campsite, except at 25 mph on approach and departure? How simple is that?

By the way, we've had Buggy Town participants who brought their motorized toys to El Mirage, and politely walked their two-stroke popcorn machines out of camp before starting them, kept them silent until after 8:00 a.m. or so, and quit at dark. They also buggied with us, enjoyed our company 'round the campfire, and are certainly welcome, at least by me, at any time again. It ain't what you do... it's how you do it, don't you think?

Anyway, that's my attempt at mending fences, so to speak; I have a political "agenda" that I feel strongly about, I'm worried about the future of my home state's most beautiful resource, the Mojave Preserve, and I do what I can to promote my point of view, just as the ARC does theirs. But I do believe we're coming to a time when we'll all be in this together, and our differences will be the minor issues, in the face of much bigger threats to us all.

Oh, and if you're being "censored" by having your posts removed, I'm not happy about that, either; we should both be allowed to express ourselves in here, as long as we choose the right forum, and keep it away from personal attacks.

-Dooley :moon:

bugymangp - 16-3-2007 at 07:24 AM

i have been watching and reading this post.
BUT. i will not view my feeling on this subject
unitl we have that meeting.

JoJo1 - 16-3-2007 at 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrewP
PS, I still love me kites, just not crazy about the buggy crowd right now.

I agree with you Drew P your response should not have been deleted. Unfotortunately that is the conspiracy around here in my opinion. I am definately for our group to have insurance. When I was on the AKA traction committee I made hundreds of calls trying to find someone to insure our groups and researched hundreds of leads online to no avail of course. I for one absolutely do not want this in the hands of folks that DO NOT REPRESENT US ALL!!! Those of you know who u are. I am done with coming to NABX for this very reason. I have been coming to NABX since 1998 and basically one man Mr. Fran put on one hell of an event we had our races every year and now since others have taken over we have had three circuit races in all of the years they have been in charge. So I for one will not b back untill that changes and hold no faith in their abilities to even remotley organize us as a group for insurnce. In fact I got screwed two years ago when I was there I asked Mr. Dean if we were going to have races that day and he said no. Ellis and I went into Vegas for some supplies and played around not expecting races to be run and upon our return they had the races. We got Screwed and for this reason until organization changes hands or I build another event out there I sure as hell will not be back. The playa is huge there is plenty of room to hold a race and for other than don't want to race still have room to go play. The Fact is this event was and still shold be a Race event first and foremost. The fact is that the current organizers are against the racers if that is the case I vote impeachment NOW.
This is my 2 cents it may offend some, but at this point I am so pissed off that I don't care.

Big John
JoJo1

CHANNIN75 - 16-3-2007 at 09:41 AM

My Dear Wonderful Buggy Family....So many good points from both sides...

Drew you will be sorely missed this year....well maybe I cant speak for everyone but you will be sorely missed by myself at least....(Im suppose to go on a buggy ride with Seany.....so when im all busted up in the middle of the lake bed who is going to come and save me....you where the rescue team after all last year

....Seany im just kidding)

But I do understand your point of View......Just as I understand Dooley's...
and I hate to say it....gulp....Your both Right!!!

Drew you have every right to feel that way about your bikes......Just as Dooley posted trying to extend out the olive branch.....has also very good points....and hopefully someday there will be a happy medium for everyone who enjoys playing in the outdoors to respect there playground and help take care of it for the future generations to be able to enjoy it also.....

I think that is something that everyone can agree on.....Even if you ride bikes or a buggy......

So there is my whole 2 cents worth on that.....:singing::singing:

and im not trying to add fuel to anyones fire.....just wish that all of you didnt act like a bunch of girls in a hair pulling contest is all..... :smilegrin:

Laugh it was funny....

Big John....I also understand your point of view.....and to be 100% honest you have every right to be pissed off.....Since my very first event was 2 yrs ago at the first NABX.....which I was able to walk around and talk to everyone that makes our invent there yearly vaction.....I was told about all the races and different events.......and couldnt wait to get to see one.....Im very sorry that you where jipped.....and again you have every right to be pissed off and then some.....and I do understand that you also feel as if things havent been better since others have taken the responsabilty of trying to live up to the..... Legend...Pimp Daddy Fran....

Last year if I remember...the one race we did have....NPW race....Which was Great!! Everyone in that race said if we are going to do it then lets get to it!!!

Which again I do see your point that shouldnt been the case.....Which I believe we touched on this subject after last years NABX.....and I think that one of the suggestions was to have a board in the main tent that we could put up some kind of (depending on the Wind Gods that day) time and place for races, and other events....
So Big John I ask you this....Lets just say that this year is more like how you remember it being.....would you come back?? Would you come and play with us again?? Because even though everyone Ive meet out on the Playa....all have a different background.....different views.......different locations where they live......For that 1 week a year we all have 1 very wonderful thing in common......We are all there to enjoy one another talk to each other and Worship the wind!!! :smilegrin:

Again just my 2 cents.....In order to make change sometimes feelings and hair pulling have to happen.....Just remember when the dust settles....I still think of all of you as Family :yes:

and Ive said it before I know that I havent been around as long as most So again maybe I trully dont have a Say in any of this......But according to My Shrink "I Have A Save The World Complex"
Which is just another way of saying....dont know when to keep my nose out of others buisness.....Tee Hee

Counting down the days

Flyin High
Shannon:singing::singing:

deanaoxo - 16-3-2007 at 12:12 PM

Whoa, whoa, hold on there good buddy. Nobody has 'screwed' anyone. The wind dictates what we do. If you need a schedule, here it is. Circuit racing 1pm Thursday.

Circuit Racing 1pm Thurs.

I'm sorry you missed out, but to imply that you were screwed indicates intent. There was no intent to exclude anyone.

NABX is not anti-racing. If you believe this, you are mistaken.

There will be racing this year, and if you'd like to participate, step right up.

Any questions?

dean jordan who has his own email, and phone number, where you can actually call him, discuss the shortcomings of the event, and even*gasp* possibly contribute to make it better. Who knew!?!

Oh, and to Mr. Drew P I do not know of any censure ship that has taken place unless you use offensive language. That will be pulled. Personally, i do have the ability to pull your post. I have not done so. Sorry.

Does look like you guys and gals have lots to talk about, that is scheduled for Weds Nite.

Thanks again to Fran for helping organize. Thanks also to Mr. Dooley for stating things in a positive way.

Everyone else, please come, speak, and get it all out. Maybe this time we can come to gether long enough to get it done.

Quote:

Originally posted by JoJo1

Quote:

Originally posted by DrewP
PS, I still love me kites, just not crazy about the buggy crowd right now.

In fact I got screwed two years ago when I was there I asked Mr. Dean if we were going to have races that day and he said no. Ellis and I went into Vegas for some supplies and played around not expecting races to be run and upon our return they had the races. We got Screwed and for this reason until organization changes hands or I build another event out there I sure as hell will not be back. The playa is huge there is plenty of room to hold a race and for other than don't want to race still have room to go play. The Fact is this event was and still shold be a Race event first and foremost. The fact is that the current organizers are against the racers if that is the case I vote impeachment NOW.
This is my 2 cents it may offend some, but at this point I am so pissed off that I don't care.

Big John
JoJo1

levitation^Drew - 16-3-2007 at 02:23 PM

I just want to make sure that nobody gets me confused with the other DrewP. Anyone that remembers me would recognize the mohawk. My name is Andrew Parker and I have never riden on a motorcycle. On the subject at hand I am for the NABA. :spin:

geokite - 16-3-2007 at 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by levitation^Drew
I just want to make sure that nobody gets me confused with the other DrewP. Anyone that remembers me would recognize the mohawk. My name is Andrew Parker and I have never riden on a motorcycle. On the subject at hand I am for the NABA. :spin:

On that note, I just want to make sure that nobody gets me confused with Corey. Anyone that remembers me would recognize the crap that comes out of my mouth regarding the compressibility of water. My name is Steve Bateman and I have never fed a dog. On the subject at hand I am not for NAMBLA.

Steve

windthing2 - 16-3-2007 at 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geokite

Quote:

and on that note ... Please dont get me confused with Kenny from South Park .Little #@%$#! Gets ate by Rats all the time. :lol:

Good stuff, don't quit now!

Lack-O-Slack - 16-3-2007 at 07:21 PM

Greets again, Buggy Family!

Jeez, I hate to hear of folks "quitting" the NABX attendance, or refusing to attend because there are differences of opinion among us.

We have had many "good" arguments 'round the campfire, and the Wed. nite meeting promises to be an awesome exchange of ideas and opinions, and I, for one, do not intend to try to "win" any of them, so much as get my viewpoint heard and respected, and to remind myself to hear and respect the viewpoints of others, too!

I don't race, have no desire to even watch races, but I've volunteered as a corner judge, and as "rescue" when one guy broke his collarbone a few years back, and even when one of "us" brought his ATV to Lake Superior and had a terrible, life-threatening accident and had to be helicoptered out. This didn't assuage my feelings about off-road ATV's, and even kind of fed my dislike of such pursuits, but I love, admire, and respect the guy who had the accident, and deeply treasured the fact that he learned from his mistake, and is not likely to repeat it, at least not at Buggy Town.

Big John, John Ellis, Luk Stanek, and others who are real racing junkies are also men I respect, admire, and enjoy listening to, talking with, and sharing the playa and the evening campfire together. I think they're stark, raving nuts to "go big or go home" the way they do, and LuS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s little 72.8 mph run makes my hair stand on end... I've been to 54 mph, against my will, on Ivanpah, and don't care to go back there again... 30 mph is fast enuff for this boy! But do I reject them for their obsession? Hell, no! Is it fun to watch them do this stuff? Yes, by golly, it sure is!

Similarly, I love to watch motocross, flat-track racing, and even ice racing on motorcycles, and can only wonder at the guts these guys exhibit in their sports. And 4WD "rock crawlers" are some extraordinary drivers! Professional and even amateur motorsports enthusiasts put on some great shows, and put a lot of thought, care, and safety into their efforts. This is very different from unsupervised teenagers turning donuts on the playa and tearing holes in everything they see, or flinging poop all over the outhouses, trash all over the brushline, or burning pallets and walking away and leaving the nails for our little buggy tires to find. It's not the "good guys" that are the problem, and I'd bet that DrewP is one of the "good guys", hence he resents my characterization of his fellow motorsports enthusiasts as "wreck-reation" participants.

It's noteworthy that there are "bad" kiters, too. I've seen guys flying in the park and screaming at everyone that gets even close to their gear, making enemies for every other kite flier by forgetting that our little sport needs "ambassadorship" to survive, and to gain access to the playgrounds we treasure.

So perhaps I erred when I said I was attempting to "mend fences"... what we all should be doing, in my opinion, is REMOVING fences, finding common ground, ways to respect and allow for each others' likes and dislikes, ways to respect, protect, and preserve our playgrounds, and to deal with our government representatives constructively, but forcefully, insisting on our rights to be unimpeded in accessing our public lands.

Denial of access, or selling off our resources to private corporations is NOT "management", it's an easy way out of a tough job. You'd think BLM and others would be a bit more far-sighted; once they "privatize" everything, their jobs won't be worth a plug nickel. Disney has their very own security company, doncha know, and they'll not see the need to kow-tow to a bunch of "rangers", once they've got control of the properties in question. And hey, Disney Corporation certainly doesn't have any funding issues, either.

So, once again, I hope that those who are resisting by not participating will reconsider; it ain't Dean's event, it ain't Corey's event, it ain't even Fran's event, and never was... IT IS OURS!!! Yes, we owe our HUGE thanks to the efforts of all of these people, (and especially Claxton Thompson), but if we never attended, from day one, they wouldn't have much to crow about, now, would they? So if we quit, walk away, and don't particiipate, the "family" is just smaller, and even more challenged to be recognized. I'll admit something here... I was debating not attending this year, too. I felt like I'd have more fun if I just went to the pre-event, then stayed on at Elmer's or Superior until I *really* needed a shower, then heading back home to relax for the remainder of my vacation, perhaps buggying down at Mission Bay. But now, since I've opened my big, fat mouth (via these fast fingers), I feel I don't have that choice; if I want representation, if I want this event to attend every year, and if I want to preserve access to Ivanpah and El Mirage, I've gotta at least contribute what I can, and participate!

I hope the walk-away folks will reconsider.

I hope we have races to watch.

I hope we find common ground 'round the meeting table.

I hope by next year, we have a clearer vision of just how diverse and interesting this group really is, and where we're going, together.

I hope Corey gets trounced in the shot-car races, or passes out just before launch, from too much fuel analysis.

I hope Bateman brings some compressed water with him, or at least pop bottles and dry ice (and Dove bars).

I hope Caddo forgives Corey.

I hope that silly rag-flapper from New Jersey wins again!

I hope Shannon... oh, nevermind. <evil grin>

-Dooley :moon:

jonesing4wind - 16-3-2007 at 10:57 PM

I said it earlier and I will say it again, the amount of feedback on the current thread says a lot about where we are as a group. Also, I suggest holding the shotcar races AFTER the wednesday evening meeting....

Seany

JoJo1 - 17-3-2007 at 07:29 AM

Whoa, Whoa is right Dean I asked you personally the night before and the morning of the day the circuits were held if races were going to be run that day and you told me point blank that the circuits would b held the next day so that is the point to my words.

You say NABX is not against racing, but the track record speaks for itself 3 circuit races since NABX has taken over SBBB. Not one enduro or team enduro has taken place.

Some how Mr. Fran my hero one person managed to get circuit races, enduro, team enduro, and freestyle into the event every single year.

You say wind conditions wouldn't permit racing well top pilots can go in as little as 2-3 mph of steady wind so that is not an excuse to me.

You say I have a phone and email well I think this is important enough to bring to the attention of all the folks on the public forum.

I am not trying to attack you in any way personally Dean. I think of you as a friend after we got through some issues in the beginning, but I want the event back to the old glory days of racing that is why I am so passionate about this subject.

You guys bashed the rules for racing that the traction committee worked so hard to establish, but unfortunately the way the legal system works some day without enforcing the rules during racing someone is going to be seriously injured and the liability is going to fall on the organizers of the event. This is something that I do not want to see happen, but it is inevitable. The signing of a waiver to come to the event means absolutely nothing in a court of law. I know this as fact as that is my occupation that most people in the group know this is what I do for a living.

For me it is just not worth the couple of thousand dollars it costs me to attend the event until it is returned the good old days of racing during the event.

I think personally that we can make the event taylored to everyones taste not all want to race and I understand this. Racing is not for everyone and that is the true beauty of our sport you can make whatever you want it to be a fun ride, tandem rides, high speed runs, or racing whatever floats your individual boat.

That is my 2 cents again if you would like to discuss this over the phone I would b more than happy to discuss with you in a friendly manner my cell numer is 405-245-9470. Like I said I am not trying to personally blast you, but you were the one I asked and that was the info I was told.

Big John
JoJo1

Quote:

Originally posted by deanaoxo
Whoa, whoa, hold on there good buddy. Nobody has 'screwed' anyone. The wind dictates what we do. If you need a schedule, here it is. Circuit racing 1pm Thursday.

Circuit Racing 1pm Thurs.

I'm sorry you missed out, but to imply that you were screwed indicates intent. There was no intent to exclude anyone.

NABX is not anti-racing. If you believe this, you are mistaken.

There will be racing this year, and if you'd like to participate, step right up.

Any questions?

dean jordan who has his own email, and phone number, where you can actually call him, discuss the shortcomings of the event, and even*gasp* possibly contribute to make it better. Who knew!?!

Oh, and to Mr. Drew P I do not know of any censure ship that has taken place unless you use offensive language. That will be pulled. Personally, i do have the ability to pull your post. I have not done so. Sorry.

Does look like you guys and gals have lots to talk about, that is scheduled for Weds Nite.

Thanks again to Fran for helping organize. Thanks also to Mr. Dooley for stating things in a positive way.

Everyone else, please come, speak, and get it all out. Maybe this time we can come to gether long enough to get it done.

kitemaker4 - 17-3-2007 at 10:04 AM

Hey Big John

Have you ever thought about helping out and volunteering to put on the races. Dean and Claxton can only do so much.
You will be missed this year again.

Susan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meter
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

JoJo1 - 17-3-2007 at 11:04 AM

Susan I would b more than happy to help in any way, but with the racing as that is the whole point for me coming to the desert is to race the races not help. I think the circuits races need to be broken down into classes and I would be more than willing to help with the beginner races teaching the ins and outs and the dos and DON'Ts during races and or any other part of organization.

Big John
JoJo1

Quote:

Originally posted by kitemaker4
Hey Big John

Have you ever thought about helping out and volunteering to put on the races. Dean and Claxton can only do so much.
You will be missed this year again.

Susan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meter
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

daveC - 17-3-2007 at 12:12 PM

coupla ideas on buggy organizations

I'm sorry I'm not qualified to speak on the (apparently) real subject here--"just who screwed up MY fun time buggying," as, unfortunately, no one did. I'm also sorry to contribute so seldom; I guess I just mostly appreciate the fact that anyone does anything at all, and then let's me participate. Thanks, guys, for organizing something as cool as a buggy event on the Mojave desert. Beats the **** out of CSI reruns.

I'm probably also barking up a tree with ideas for organizing people as, well, lets call it "as diverse" as those posting here (There's no hobby so small that the players can't bifurcate it and yell obscenities at "those idiots," eh?). I know you guys hate go-carters and miniature motocross bikes with first grade daredevils on them, I know land sailors won't drink beer with us. I know some of you hate Fisley, the French, French Canadia (but not those other Canadians--go figure) and some of you seem to like Fisley... strangest of all, some of you last aren't even French Canadian. Weird). I know you hate the Germans, the English and of course, everyone hates the Dutch. I know you hate buggies not designed by Lord Peter Lynn and yet everyone loves npw kites--so long as they know their place on the playa. I'm with Bateman; I'm against NAMBLA, not that there's anything wrong with that. Everyone seems to love Corey, except those who don't. Everyone loves Lord Peter, yet most would like to see him brought down a peg...

So I ask myself the question: Who are we most like, and who would we like to associate with? If you're still reading at this point, you might be scratching your head, too. Who'd have us? This is the weirdest bunch of self-centered #@%$#!s I've ever seen in my life, and yet I KNOW that some of the worst antagonists are the oldest and dearest of friends. I don't pretend to get it, but then again, that's probably why, after 30 years in the sport I've never been a dues-paying member of any organized kiting group (to paraphrase Will Rogers--I'm a Democrat).

So, where's this going? As an outsider, I can only offer a couple of things: Stop looking at your differences and start looking at your similarities. Stop looking at each other's well-known faults (don't get me started about Dean Jordan!), and start looking at each other's equally well-known strengths. You people are the closest-knit bunch of hermits I ever met. Play to your strengths, dammit. Or else watch your sport continue to be marginalized Until there's no one left but Corey, Dean and Dooley out there on the playa. (Whoa, that's a picture!)

Obvious thought: What about European buggy organizations? How are they dealing with insurance? With beach closures? With splinter groups of French Canadians trying to change *their* racing rules? For every American buggier, there are a dozen Europeans. I hear rumors that the sport is actually growing there, and thriving. Surely, even through our dislikes and prejudice, we can learn something from the old countries?

Enough rambling; I gotta go to work. Thanks for this venue, a place to slam the establishment. Paid and provided for by--that same establishment. Imagine that.

Dave Culp

Oh, and if any of the above offends you personally, that's the point. Get over it and pull for the team. Hang together or hang separately--it's your sport.

kitemaker4 - 17-3-2007 at 12:47 PM

Hey Big John

You can always recruit and have plenty of volunteers to run the races and in doing so you can race also. I know I personally go to have fun and buggy and do not mind helping out when I can. Just a thought.

Susan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKD Brooza's 2, 3, 4 and 5.5 meter
Libre V-max and big foot light V-max buggys
Nasa wings

xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX - 17-3-2007 at 02:20 PM

CHANNIN75 - 17-3-2007 at 11:01 PM

Quote:

Right on Drew!!!! Sorry my bad....not to confuse me with a normal thinking person....ROFL

But Still For the other Drew P :yes:

I Still Say.....You Will Be Missed.... :yes:

Big John...Glad to see that you are still open to the discussion of maybe pretty please coming out???

Dooley...<EVIL GRIN> Dont Play With a Red Head We Bite Back...But Only Hard Enough To Tease....ROFL

Flyin High
Shannon :singing::singing::singing:

Pablo - 18-3-2007 at 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX
:?:Sheesh what gives people:?:
Racing that's easy! Come up next to another buggier point then drop the hammer and go. If they don't cath ya YOU WON!:duh: That's a race is it not:puzzled: Just like Saturday nights cruzing the strip looking for a drag race,yes? Why make it difficult? Buggying should be fun yes?
But then what do I know I'm from Louisiana and eating all those crawfish & gulf shrimp makes me post nonsense and ramblings I suppose.
Or should I just bring the cheese and crackers as there seems to be no short supply of
WHINE:!:
:tumble:Rolling out to Buggy Town soon!

Dunno, somehow the fact that I've got to drive for 25hrs to get there sort of makes me want to have the races mentioned on the sign up form. I can find amazing guys to buggy with a lot closer than that, the seaside crowd is awesome, same with the group in alberta, The locals are great as well, but we lack the awesome areas that you guys have to play in.

Personally, I hope to go head to head with the best in the country, this time I'll be at the back of the pack, but I'll learn, next time I'll be further up. I'm going down with our team to mix it up with the big boys, learn from the experience and take something back to teach our local boys. The best way to learn fast is to be up against guys better than yourself.

I mean no disrespect for those that love to cruise around the area having fun, I think it's cool that there's such a wide range of people that are involved with the sport. Keeps it an interesting crowd. Myself though, I want to run, I want to go head to head against guys on the track, I want to crack the 50mph mark. I learned more in 1/2 hr of following Sunset Jim than I did in a year of buggying by myself.

This goes for the ATB and freestyle stuff as well, We've got guys on our team wanting to compete in pretty much every event for much the same reasons.

Ya see, to some the thrill of the race, the anticipation for the flag to drop, that's the fun. There's nothing like sitting there on the line, watching the lil yellow lights light up one by one, knowing that the green's next. The feeling of dropping the hammer and pulling for all she's worth.

xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX - 18-3-2007 at 08:31 AM

KYTE SLINGER - 18-3-2007 at 08:48 AM

wait

XBPX your talking about NABX drag racing.... consist of the fastest person to dress in drag..... races down the lake bed and back wins

Pablo - 18-3-2007 at 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX
Ya see, to some the thrill of the race, the anticipation for the flag to drop, that's the fun. There's nothing like sitting there on the line, watching the lil yellow lights light up one by one, knowing that the green's next. The feeling of dropping the hammer and pulling for all she's worth.

OK I was WRONG! Now that's a format I'd pay to see! Buggy Drag races! 1/4 or 1/2 mile fastest wins good old drag race.

I was thinking more of my old days of 1/4 mile drag racing with the cars, but now that you mention it, I think we should give it a try. Racing a course would be a blast, but 1/4 mile racing would be a sheer test of kite acceleration and top speed. The results could be interesting.

xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX - 18-3-2007 at 12:27 PM

krocdoc - 18-3-2007 at 04:25 PM

let's have some real excitement...

NABX NPW 2007 Nationals

To keep race heats under 15 minutes we can mark off a 20 yard course....

jellis - 18-3-2007 at 05:20 PM

krocdoc why do you have a 6 pack of red tripe?

krocdoc - 18-3-2007 at 05:24 PM

sonny, why won't cher come out to play????

xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX - 18-3-2007 at 07:50 PM

Pablo - 18-3-2007 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX
I was thinking more of my old days of 1/4 mile drag racing with the cars, but now that you mention it, I think we should give it a try. Racing a course would be a blast, but 1/4 mile racing would be a sheer test of kite acceleration and top speed. The results could be interesting.

I agree there. 2 racers. Green light and flag drops now Go that way realy fast & fist one over the line wins. The start is what I don't know about. Standing start or might have to get some helpers hold the axle untill you develop peak horsepower then launch :lol:

Nah to many disputes there. Suppose it would have to be both riders start with parked kites or overhead and feet on the ground then when flag drops go. Seems this would be a true test for bragging rights for those that need such things. If pilots were of equal weight, buggies of equal weight and similar size kites this would be a hands down true test of who's fast and who's not. I'm going to miss those burnouts though but I'm sure one of those TEXAS :wow: :thumbup:

buggiers is bound to be able to smoke the tires on a start!

I think you're on the right track one guy watching to make sure no one creeps or jumps, I agree with the feet down, kite overhead. Probably 1/4 mile. I don't think the pilot weight really comes into play, lighter pilots will need to fly smaller kites. They'll probably be quicker off the line, but may end up hurt for speed on the top end.

xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX - 18-3-2007 at 10:46 PM

sockhat - 19-3-2007 at 08:14 AM

:thumbup:

Buggiers, Start Your Engines!!! :yes:

Kite at 12:00, and boots on the deck...

You guys are really on to something!

You can count me in to help get it together, help judge, and help race.

Maybe we should start a new thread on this topic.:puzzled:

Maybe the Rag Flappers would want an 1/8th mi. course...:smug:

The maybes can turn to for sures, :tumble:and this could be really FUN!!!

~:singing::singing::singing:Rob:singing::singing::singing:

Pablo - 19-3-2007 at 12:26 PM

Sure, why wouldn't you run different classes for the flappers, you'll hardly ever see imports running against domestics, not that one's better, just different beasts. If there's enough interest you could run a reduced sail size class to make it beginner friendly as well. I think I'll end up in the outlaw class though.

Of course, I still want to run laps on a course as well, Our team's been looking forwards to the Enduro event as well.