Power Kite Forum

Handles or Control Bar for Buggying

GulfSandEater - 14-7-2007 at 04:21 PM

Most of the buggying videos that I've seen show pilots using handles rather than control bars, but I have seen a few bars out there too.

As I get started with quad line kites with buggying in mind, I'd like to know what you buggiers prefer to use and why?

gilligan - 14-7-2007 at 07:30 PM

Much better control with handles. Easier launching and landing as well.

leebrianh - 14-7-2007 at 07:59 PM

Handles, same reason gilligan mentioned. - Brian

acampbell - 15-7-2007 at 05:28 AM

I like the free hand(s) the bar allows. In light air ya need the finesse the handles allow, though. If the weather ever stops this BS I'll try my re-rigged cross-over bar for the light air.

Pablo - 15-7-2007 at 10:46 PM

The cross over should work good in light winds, my 9m buster had one and it worked great, I usually fly handles though in the buggy, it's so nice having the use of the seperate brake controls. With a harness it's easy enough to fly one handed as well. I've got a QR and pulley setup on my harness, simply push/pull for steering, for long runs I'll set the kite so it's slowly nosing down, then add just a touch of brake as needed to keep the kite nosing up as needed.

Bladerunner - 16-7-2007 at 09:13 PM

I think often when you see folks running a bar and buggy in video they are flying depower kites.
Having said that, I am one of the converted ! I love my cross-over bars! The little I lose in control is more than made up for by the comfort ( familiarity to me ) that I get out of a bar and D-loop. As mentioned you can usually run 1 handed and often NO :o handed for long periods when hooked in ! I also feel a LOT more secure jumping hooked in with bar and D-loop.
Of course I'm also the one running on blades when the world is running KGB :duh:

khooke - 16-7-2007 at 09:30 PM

I prefer handles and on a harness. When hooked in and powered up on a reach I'll normally be hanging on the opposite side of the buggy with one hand and steering the kite with occasional brake input on the top brake (as the kites going side on across the wind) to keep it going straight.

I've tried a bar too and was surprised it gives good control, but preferred it more for the depower ability rather than just because it was a bar.

I'd try both and see what you like!

GulfSandEater - 6-8-2007 at 05:02 PM

Having flown the past three weeks without a harness, my 3.0m in 10-12 mph is taking its toll on my hands during long powered-up sessions. :( I'd love to see pics and a discussion of your "harness with handles" setups, Pablo and Khooke. What equipment are you using?

kitemaker4 - 6-8-2007 at 08:39 PM

Before I got my harness my fingers would get numb. Using a harness problem solved.

Susan

zloty - 6-8-2007 at 09:02 PM

Or You can fly them with handles no hands ;) http://www.flickr.com/photos/slawek2006/592418344/in/set-721...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/slawek2006/sets/721576004348345...

Pablo - 7-8-2007 at 06:30 PM

Pro limit seat harness, hook type spreader bar, shackle, Wichardt quick release, Climbing pulley, home made strop. On the bigger kites, Jon's pulley handles.

khooke - 9-8-2007 at 07:36 AM

GulfSandEater - it can be as simple as piece of climbing rope (1 foot) tied across the tops of the handles (or larksheaded onto the pigstails coming off the top of the handles opposite the pigstails that your power lines are attached to, and then the rope is hooked under the hook on the spreader bar on the harness.

I've seen/heard people using climbing harnesses and windsurf/kitesurf harnesses. A Dakine Speedseat harness with a spreader bar and a hook on the front (like Pablo) works for me.

That would be a good starting point. It can get much more ellaborate from that point - quick releases and snatch blocks etc. If you search on FF forum for 'Wichard Quick Release Holt Allen snatch blocS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- you'll find a bunch of posts and pictures of peoples setups.

GulfSandEater - 29-8-2007 at 02:15 PM

Thanks everyone. I'm putting together some pieces to make a harness setup and thought I'd throw this out for comment.

Since I have a climbing harness and carabiners, I'm going to start with that rather than buying a seat harness and spreader bar.

I've got a Wichard 2673 Quick-Release Shackle coming my way from eBay.

Now I'm looking for a pulley. I thought about the Petzl Fixe or Mini based on some reviews on the FF forum. These are available from my local REI or online for about $30-$40. I like the idea of the sealed bearings as I fly at the beach. How is that Ronstan working out for you Khooke?

So my connections would be Climbing Harness --> Locking carabiner --> Swiveling Wichard QR Shackle --> Pulley --> Strop / Handles / Kite.

What do you think?

AirH0g - 29-8-2007 at 08:39 PM

Those QR shackles are a bit pricey, although i'm sure you get what you pay for.
Does anyone know how the non quick release shackles work? I see these on ebay for about $20 do you just pull the small ring to open the shackle? If so these would be a great "budget minded" alternative

wichard on ebay

GulfSandEater - 29-8-2007 at 09:30 PM

I've read on the FF forums that the piston style snap shackles are difficult to release under load and can become stuck with sand, whereas the QRs release fine under load. People say that in this case "you get what you pay for" is true. I tried to find a picture I saw earlier of what they mean by "piston style" on FF but I can't; however, the drawing I saw resembles the shackle in your eBay link.

GulfSandEater - 29-8-2007 at 09:34 PM

Okay another question for when you all wake up in the morning:

Does it matter which direction I have the Wichard face? I've seen some people have the releasing side connected to the harness--D-shackling their pulley to the "bail" of the Wichard.

Alternatively, I've seen people D-shackle the bail of the Wichard to their harness--connecting their pulley to the releasing side.

Does one perform better than the other?

art_lessing - 30-8-2007 at 12:02 AM

To Gulfsandeater...
if you value your "boys" don't use a mountain climbing harness..the pulls are from different angles than the mountain climbing harness ..you will experience a certain pinchy -ness from those harnesses...I speak from experience...I use a Dakine seat harness....and after the mountain climbing one....ooooh I feel the difference...which leads me to my next question for all you guys out there....Jock strap or no? and if no then how do you beat the "pinching problem"....??????

Dq

GulfSandEater - 30-8-2007 at 09:55 AM

Good question, DQ! I see many posts of people using climbing harnesses on the FF forum, but they don't mention problems with the juevos. I went ahead a posted an inquiry over there...I'll see what they say.

Does anybody else here have "uncomfortable" experience using a climbing harness for kiting?

mongo - 31-8-2007 at 09:28 PM

What I have done with my old climbing harness, is move the point where the crotch straps attach. From the back of the harness they now go between my legs and connect to the waist band where my hips are. This gives your 'gonads. loads of room, and no nipping.

GulfSandEater - 9-9-2007 at 08:58 PM

Hey Mongo, do you move the front or rear attachment point for the croch straps?

khooke - 9-9-2007 at 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GulfSandEater
How is that Ronstan working out for you Khooke?


So far I buggied with it a couple of times prior to SOBB and thought it was great. It's odd though because the sides are open and you can see the bearings - they look like either plastic or ceramic, but I don't think they are metal. So on the beach for SOBB I noticed when wet and laying on the beach it picks up a bunch of sand. Didn't seem to bother it though, just give it a shake and bash it a bit to get most of the sand off and away you go. I've no idea at this point how long its going to last - I imagine from getting the sand in there it's bound to wear, but no idea on whether that's a big deal or not at this point. I'll give you another heads up in a couple of weeks and let you know if it's still working!

GulfSandEater - 9-9-2007 at 10:47 PM

Thanks for that Khooke. I went ahead and picked up the Petzl Mini with sealed bearings. I tried using my new harness setup this weekend for the first time--First with my Pansh Legend 3.0m and then with DaVinch's Blade IV 4.9m.

The setup worked like a charm. I haven't tried the pulley in the sand yet, though :)

Man, is it nice to take the load off the arms or WHAT?!!!1

ripsessionkites - 10-9-2007 at 12:20 AM

two pictures for ya

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o7/ripsessionkites/Misc/r...

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o7/ripsessionkites/Misc/r...

KiteProject - 22-9-2007 at 05:52 PM

It'd be helpful to see the pics of your setup. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally posted by GulfSandEater
Thanks for that Khooke. I went ahead and picked up the Petzl Mini with sealed bearings. I tried using my new harness setup this weekend for the first time--First with my Pansh Legend 3.0m and then with DaVinch's Blade IV 4.9m.

The setup worked like a charm. I haven't tried the pulley in the sand yet, though :)

Man, is it nice to take the load off the arms or WHAT?!!!1

xxxBUGGYPILOTXXX - 22-9-2007 at 08:34 PM

NPWfever - 19-10-2007 at 07:56 PM

If i wanted to run a line from one handle to the other would i run the line from power line to power line?

Pablo - 20-10-2007 at 01:38 PM

Yup, have it come off the rear of the handles in line with the power line, if there's pigtails on the handles attach there, if not, wrap once around the handle above the power line, then once just below the power line and tie them off, this way they'll stay centered on the back of the power line.

Adjust the lenght so you can easily get enough throw to turn the kite sharp, but not to far away that the one handle gets out of reach on a full turn. A little trial and error will give you the perfect lenght.

GulfSandEater - 30-10-2007 at 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KiteProject
It'd be helpful to see the pics of your setup. Thanks.


Sorry I'm slow responding to your request...I didn't check this thread for a while.

Here is a picture showing the climbing harness, carabiner, Wichard quick release shackle, and Petzl pulley. Cheers and fly safely!

Climbing Harness Rig Closeup Side.jpg - 253kB

Sthrasher38 - 8-12-2007 at 08:41 AM

Nice picture thanks.:thumbup:

Pablo - 8-12-2007 at 10:49 AM

Yeah, that's exactly what you're after. I think Slawek has a slightly heavier QR and pulley, but he's not exactly easy on gear. The one pictured above should easily do most people for quite a while.

macboy - 16-12-2007 at 05:30 PM

Pablo, the strop line on the Brooza's handles - is that a good "standard" length? I'm just now doing the math on lengths and stuff to set up my quick release to use with a climbing harness and will likely add a length of rope so that my hands are held at a comfortable position away from my body thereby making all of my strops the same length as that one. I'd otherwise I'd use a longer strop line but like those particular handles. Are there any pros and cons to using a long vs. short strop?

Pablo - 16-12-2007 at 08:27 PM

Interesting question, they're the perfect length if you're using a pulley block and harness. If they were any longer they'd be hard to reach at full turn. Any shorter and you simply don't get enough turn.

If you end up using them with just a standard hook or pulley spreader bar then they're quite close to your waist and it can be a pain to hit full brake while in a turn.

I think they're a good length from the factory though, I have all my strops at roughly the same length. When the original strop finally does wear out, simply tie knots in the ends about 1" away from the handles, then make up another strop and larks head the ends onto the knots.

As for overall lenght, it's a comfort thing, I like them out as far as possible while still being able to reach both handles no problem when reaching over to one side. When I was flying straight off the spreader bar I had them longer though, just to move the handles away from my body and allow full brakes in a tight turn.

macboy - 16-12-2007 at 10:09 PM

Thanks Pablo!

TEDWESLEY - 21-12-2007 at 09:23 AM

For a quick release you might look under an item called a pelican hook
designed to release under load. Used in the marine trade for releasing nets under load and similar uses.

stevie795 - 21-12-2007 at 09:43 AM

Hi everyone i have a 6 meter panshand it is hard work using handles and have trouble with using the brakes would a bar be better with a harness. If so i do not want to brake the bank and have no idea about them does anyone know of any that i should look for.:puzzled:

macboy - 21-12-2007 at 09:54 AM

Unless you've got a fail safe, automatic quick release I wouldn't connect directly to the kite until I was very competent with it (I've yet to hook in myself to be honest). Even then I'll be using the Wichard. I find my Panshs to be quite fussy about the brake line setting and need them quite tight which gives me good brake control with the handles. How long are your handles? I've got limited experience with a Flexifoil bar which gives me no brake control other than a webbing strap that I can adjust - but really only tighten while in the air, must be loosened on the ground. Landing requires grabbing a mitfull of actual brake line which scares me (I got sliced good by a little stunt kite years ago...)

I'm relatively new here so hopefully someone can verify or correct me on this.

acampbell - 21-12-2007 at 11:28 AM

I use a Ronstan QW with a big loop of red line attached to the pull-pin for release. I connect it to a small Harken pulley w/ ball bearings.
What no one has said is that going from plain strop around the spreader hook to a pulley is like stepping up to power steering; flying the kite can be done practically on fingertips.

About grabbing those brake lines, get a pair of sailing gloves at the marine store. They have reinforced (fake) leather palms and open fingertips for grabbing that larks head. Not expensive and very comfortable. I never fly without them.

Pablo - 22-12-2007 at 11:49 AM

You can make a bar with a proper safety easy enough, do a search for the Crossover bar, It's been discussed many times. to land, simply unhook the fixed D-loop and let go of the bar. it'll end up about 1-2 ft away from you and the kite will be on full safety. It'll also feed in brake line steering while flying the kite. It's simply the only bar system I'd use on a kite 5m and larger.

I believe there's some other products out there, I think HQ or Radsail makes them if you don't want to DIY

BeamerBob - 2-4-2008 at 07:18 PM

This has been a good re-read. Right now I have mine set up with harness, D-ring, biner, quick release, pulley. Above, someone had it QR, biner, pulley. That would keep the pulley from sailing somewhere if you disconnect under pressure. Two questions, does no one use any kind of kite killer to keep things close if you disengage the QR? And what do you put on the QR to actuate it?

I made 2 strops today but no wind to try it. I'm getting close on this.

GulfSandEater - 3-4-2008 at 09:55 AM

I've tried using kite killers with my harness setup. Works okay, but I start feeling a bit tangled up in the buggy with all of these things...strop, killers, quick release line... Maybe I just need to keep working on getting a setup that is comfortable and functional. <shrug>

Regarding the QR...for now I've run a short length of climbing rope between the shackle release line and a side loop on my climbing harness. It's short enough that there isn't much slack...but not too much tension to cause an accidental release. When I need to bail with the kite killers on, I drop the handles and bring my right hand down toward my harness; it encounters the slightly tensioned release line and POP! off goes the pulley.

One drawback of my setup is the release is definitely a right-handed operation...I have no release line on the left side. I just hope with this configuration that in an emergency I have my wits about me (and range of motion with my right arm) to hit this release.

macboy - 3-4-2008 at 10:10 AM

I wonder why a guy couldn't find a way to run a line down to the harness from the brake lines much like a leash on a bar setup instead of using killers.....

GulfSandEater - 3-4-2008 at 11:26 AM

Yeah, perhaps like a kind of second strop that's long enought not to interfere with flight.

Does anybody do this?