Power Kite Forum

kite killers good or bad

Scudley - 28-12-2007 at 04:08 PM

Are kite killers really safer? In BC, there are those who say "No,they are dangerous." Any opinions? Please provide reasons for your answer.
S

DAKITEZ - 28-12-2007 at 04:18 PM

I say safer. Not only for you , but everyone that is in the area if you let go. I don't really see how they could be unsafe. They can get in the way at times, but other than that they're a good safety device.

Baluk - 28-12-2007 at 04:43 PM

Who said they are unsafe? That's probably one of the dumbest things I've heard.

powerzone - 28-12-2007 at 05:42 PM

every kite needs a safety system... even if it is "lame" it is still a safety and all kites should have one.

if kite killers is all there is... then still use it.

the only unsafe thing about kite killers is not using them and risking the consequences.

Scudley - 28-12-2007 at 05:43 PM

For static, flying much safer.
If you are mobile It can mean you are dragging a set of lines until you stop. Anyone between you and your kite is going to have your lines dragged across them.
Kite killers like Flexifoil's would be damned hard to get out of if the kite collapse. I would not want to be trying to get out of Flexifoil killers while being dragged.
Is not rule #1 Never attach yourself to the kite without a release.
S

Baluk - 28-12-2007 at 05:48 PM

So you'd rather drop the kite and have it float away aimlessly towards people, rather than have it collapsed and coming down onto the ground and you continue moving for several meters?

lunchbox - 28-12-2007 at 06:17 PM

I remember reading that there were some people who thought killers were unsafe and shouldn't be used. Always wondered why?? The only reason I can think of would be if you had to get rid of the kite completely...but what situation would that be in on land?? Maybe another reason would be that it gives you a false sense of security in riding in winds that you really shouldn't be out in??

Who knows...not I...I use killers each and every time.

B-Roc - 28-12-2007 at 07:54 PM

Personally, I only use them in sketchy situations or when there are crowds about or if I am going to be jumping on the board or skis and risk hitting the ground in an uncontrolled manner that could cause me to drop the kite.

For static flying, I don't use them. 90% of the time I'm riding I don't use them either as the strop is hooked in to the harness rendering the killers unable to be deployed.

The reason why "some" say they are "unsafe" is because if you are riding in a buggy and the killers are long then they can wrap on your axel and that would be bad.

Teaman - 29-12-2007 at 07:55 AM

I use a radsail cross over bar with a safety system, (1 kite killer attatched to the break lines)
on my standard handles I don't have any probebly because I will use them in lower winds to turn the kite faster, if theres low winds theres less risk hence no need...

although having said that if your flyig in blusty conditions I'd strongly recomend them, its then when your most likely to be caught out.

there also handy to attach to the ground stakes.

I have ozone kite killers which have an elasticated lead, this should cut down the risk when buggying.


stu

speleopower - 29-12-2007 at 08:34 AM

I don't use them. Mostly because of three things. 1) Never fly your kite near other people especially those downwind of you. 2)I fly in the ocean and want to get away from all the lines and my kite when I crash in the surf. 3)fixed bridle open cell foils will snag and stop when they touch just about anything. Plus getting hit by a loose open cell foil is like getting wrapped up by a bed sheet blowing down the beach.

Here's a pic of what a taunt line could do to you i.e. a kite stuck on kite killers getting pulled by a wave.

Scott

kitesurf accident.jpg - 44kB

acampbell - 29-12-2007 at 08:53 AM

About the only possible reason for thinking KK are unsafe is if, as B-Roc says, you wear them in the buggy and let them get caught under a wheel. I would suggest however that if that is the case, they are not being worn properly. If the leashes are attached out in front of the brake lines on the handle leaders, they do not hang down so much as to be a risk, unless you are in just as much danger of getting a line or two under the wheel, which is another matter altogether.

Yes they can be a nusance, but they are more of nusance in higher winds when you would want them the most. (they might flop around and wrap a line when you are putting them on, etc.) In lighter winds, they are arguabley not needed as much, but are really less of a bother, so I think it all works out.

The Flexis are just as easy/ difficult to get out of as the HQ or the Ozones that I see, but I would argue that if you have put yourself in that kind of position (gotten hooked to a moving object like car or plane) then you have already thrown the wheels of Darwinism into motion...

canuck - 29-12-2007 at 10:37 AM

I mainly use them in high winds - tried it without when I first started and saw that if you lose your grip on one handle it takes off like a rocket and becomes a lethal weapon if you aren't the only person around. I have never had a situation on land or snow where I wanted to completely get of the kite - it can travel a long way without my big ass on the end of the lines.

The only manufacturer I have seen so far that has warned you not to use kite killers is Ted Dougherty - Pro-Foil is not designed for use with them (in bold print on the operating instructions sheet).

Bill

Sthrasher38 - 29-12-2007 at 11:59 AM

Saftey first! I always wear them. Yes they are apain in the butt most of the time but I would rather deal with that Before hurting someone or risk losing my kite. It is no fun trying to chase a knotted ball of kite a quater mile!:borg:

Pablo - 29-12-2007 at 12:09 PM

KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are a must if there's anyone around, The chances of having them drag over someone after you've dumped the kite is minimal and the kite won't be powered up at the time so damage would be minimal. The chances of the kite flying away and hitting someone in a crowded park like say Garry Point is pretty high, the resulting accident could not only cause injury to spectators but possibly lead towards a kiting ban at the park. I rode with KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s all the way up to the point where I started flying with a fully captive system.

If you're out in no mans land on the sand flats then well, maybe they're not really needed, no one around to get in the way, some bush will eventually stop the kite.


I'd say the only real reason for not using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s is if you're flying a totally captive system with a QR. As stated above, in this case the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s won't be able to drop the kite seeing as it's stuck attached to the strop until you hit the safety.

coreykite - 29-12-2007 at 01:08 PM

Hey Sailors,
Here's my take on KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s...
I think they stink!

The kite killer "teaches" some very wrong lessons.
They teach that "letting go" is the first thing to do in an emergency.
WRONG!

And you haven't really "let-go" anyway.
You've only let go of the control.
You're still attached to the kite.

To disengage from the kite, one must do 3 things:
Let go of the handles and control,
Reach up and release one velcro strap,
Reach up and release the other velcro strap.

Yah. Right.

I have long taught that the 3 steps of control should be:
1. Full-Reverse on the handles - This stalls the kite.
2. Holding the bottoms of the handles in one hand, reach up with your other hand and pull the brake lines - This inverts and reverses the kite (up-side-down & backwards). Now it is a piece of falling cloth.
3. Letting go of the handles now disconnects the flyer from the kite completely and releases a harmless piece of fabric, not a powered-up kite.

All kite killers do is prevent that very practical control from working, and prevent the flyer from developing the very skills needed.

Then there are the assumptions being made...
Are we talking about a complete idiot with way too much kite in way too much wind? Who thinks kite killers are magic?

Knowing the methods of control require some practice, not gimmicks.
The Science of Marketing loves gimmicks.
Most retailers love gimmicks too.
Anything that makes it easier to sell more product and make more money.

Education takes time and energy and doesn't pay - It costs -
So most retailers don't bother to do much.
Too many newcomers to our sport really want to buy the easy way in.
Selling them gimmicks will continue to be an easier way to make the sale.

If you don't know how to control your kite - Do you really believe kite killers will make you the man?

I teach skills.
I don't like gimmicks.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

Baluk - 29-12-2007 at 01:35 PM

It seems that many of the people that hate kitekillers are generally older and have been in the sport long before KK were introduced. They don't see them as something for safety, rather a consumer 'gimmicS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-. It's far from a gimmick, and at 10-15$ they aren't profiting that much anyways. I know some people that knew about them, but only thought they were for people starting out. He learned that many people do infact use them. He's been kiting for a while. And as far as I know, he may have changed his view on them.

I learned 100% on kitekillers. I believe my kiting skills both static and moving are pretty good. Kitekillers are my last resort. I can only see how using KK helped me improve - not hindering me in any way.

Kitekillers don't teach any wrong lessons. They only reassure you that when you must let go, you will not loose the kite nor will it be thrown upon others. If you are in an area where having kitekillers is more dangerous, I can't see why letting a kite completely go could be any safer.

Quote:

I have long taught that the 3 steps of control should be:
1. Full-Reverse on the handles - This stalls the kite.
2. Holding the bottoms of the handles in one hand, reach up with your other hand and pull the brake lines - This inverts and reverses the kite (up-side-down & backwards). Now it is a piece of falling cloth.
3. Letting go of the handles now disconnects the flyer from the kite completely and releases a harmless piece of fabric, not a powered-up kite.


Number one and two you can still do perfectly fine –with kitekillers. #3 I would rather have the kite float down while attached to the kitekiller instead of it going who knows where downwind. If it is really that important, it is not hard to take them off your wrist in any real emergency. And, as far as I know, Ozone KK are very easiy with a D ring you pull and the entire KK comes offvery easily.

When a new flyer uses kitekillers, he gets reassured that he is allowed to let go of the kite as a last resort if he needs to. He doesn't have to worry about potentially losing several hundred dollars worth of gear because a gust may have hit and pulled the handles from his hand. I do not think someone will take it out in stronger winds just because they have kite killers. I think they would be just as likely to take it out in stupid winds without them, and I'm pretty positive about this because I know people who have done that without kite killers. What I also know is that if they had kite killers it would be much safer for everyone when he goes and flies in those stupid winds.

If you want to push your limits, kite killers help you do that more safely.

Kitekillers are also about convenience. If you don't want your kite to tangle and get caught up in a bush or something, use your KK when kiting and the kite is safe.

Again, skill doesn't overcome kitekillers. Kitekillers and skill go hand in hand.

Mikey17 - 29-12-2007 at 01:49 PM

i dont think it's a gimmick. where i fly if loose my kite then it's basicaly had it, so i see the killers as more of a kite saving device.

if im hooked in on the bar and i bail/fall off the board and land on my face then i just pull the quick release and let go of the bar then the killer 'kills' the kite and it floats gently to the floor.

i would like to know what is unsafe and gimmicky about that, as it has saved me from getting dragged across the whole field on my back many times.

Baluk - 29-12-2007 at 01:51 PM

Whats gimmicky is that you paid a few $$ for something that helps you!

Mikey17 - 29-12-2007 at 02:00 PM

it came free with the bar so it seems ozone are just giving gimmicks away:D

Baluk - 29-12-2007 at 02:10 PM

Those B@$%@RD$ !!!!!

:spin:

gbrown - 29-12-2007 at 05:43 PM

Well I am definatly an old guy and I don't use kite killers mainly because I didn't know about them. I have only been power kiting for about three years and have never seen them. I always wear gloves and times that I have needed to get a kite down I have used Corey methods.

I must say though I never really fly big kites in high winds and really only get to buggy at NABX. I had an OBE at the pre event last year and got the kite on the ground and held onto it using those techniques.

If I am standing and flying I am flying a rev so I don't think I would need them then but when I vacation in FL the beach is narrow and you have a lot of people walking around which can be a challange so you need to drop the kite alot if they start to walk under your lines. It is also when I practice prior to NABX and having KK might be the resonsible thing to do because if the kite got away a random person might try and grab the lines or the kite could blow into the protected dunes.

So having said all of that if I am going to make a set of KK I was thinking of sewing a small D ring on the wrist band of my gloves and hooking the kk to that with a quick release buckel like you might see on ski gloves. Does anyone see a problem with that.

Thank
George

USA_Eli_A - 29-12-2007 at 05:59 PM

we train new riders with kite killers, they are very useful!

Kite Killers: Good:thumbup:

speleopower - 30-12-2007 at 06:09 AM

Kitekillers like depower bars have created false senses of security. But if you want to ride with them great and if you don't great. Just make sure you adhere to the following kiteflying rule whether you use them or not.
1)don't fly with people or obstacles within a resaonable distance downwind of you.

Scott

MVC-076S.JPG - 18kB

Bladerunner - 30-12-2007 at 09:45 AM

Folks around here are often seen out in public without K.K.'s on. :wow:
It only feels odd the 1st time :wink2: Then it becomes liberating :smug:
We may have to set a policy of using them soon and I think a few folks will feel shackled ! :evil:
I can wear them, if I have to ;)

Mikey17 - 30-12-2007 at 12:24 PM

just out of curiosity, do buggy racers wear em?

macboy - 30-12-2007 at 02:59 PM

Interesting read. I caught myself looking down at my two index fingers as I read that, looking at the scars I got in my teens from some fast moving spectra I was holding onto when a gust yanked the sport kite. When I flagged out on the lake a few weeks ago without a way to stake the kite down so I could go sort it out, I started yarding in the lines by hand. A gust grabbed the bowtie and I let go fearing a matched set of scars.

I'm all for killers. Even gloves can get a line wrapped around them and I'm not going to be the one who sees if they have sufficient shear strength to prevent a line from decapitating one of my fingers.

Baluk - 30-12-2007 at 03:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by macboy
I caught myself looking down at my two index fingers as I read that, looking at the scars I got in my teens from some fast moving spectra I was holding onto when a gust yanked the sport kite.


Quoted for emphasis!

tedsfoils - 30-12-2007 at 04:13 PM

I would agree with Corey. I do not like the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s. I'm an old power kiter also. When I started flying I had to teach my self control and in the process the muscles in my forearms became stronger from applying the brakes (this helps with control). If you have to resort to KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s you are probably over powered anyway. The flyers who are using the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s may not have ever dumped the kite and have the wind pick up... since you are still attached to the kite by both wrists the kite could still pull you downwind... and while this is going on you have no control.

I have used this method of de-power. After applying full brakes reach out, one arms length with one hand (do not grab the lines) and push the bottom lines (brake lines) to the side.

Baluk - 30-12-2007 at 04:47 PM

A couple things I also wanna mention

If you've tried kite killers and they weren't using a bungee cord, I can see why you many also think they stink. There will be a huge jerk at first and they will have to be quite long in the first place. A bungee remedies both of these problems.

Flying overpowered... some of us enjoy being overpowered. Kite killers help us do it in a safe way. I know that many people would still go out in these winds. Better doing it with a safer method. What about those nice days that are just gusty and sometimes rip the kite our of your hand?

Many people don't get the privilege of sailing along wide open lake flats or ocean coasts. Many people fly inland. With gusty conditions, houses, trees, people, fences. I would MUCH rather the kite be attached to me with KK than it to fly into one of these obstacles. Or even beaches close to roads, power lines etc, dunes (as mentioned) etc. You can still use any skill that you want. And you should use these skills. But use the KK as a back-up.

speleopower - 30-12-2007 at 05:10 PM

Like Ted mentioned self control is the best safety out there. If the wind is gusty don't fly, if you feel you might be overpowered don't fly a kite then absolutely don't fly with obstacles downwind of you. I've sat out so many kite flying session because of poor conditions.
Here is the picture again of a finger sliced to the bone which had to have micro surgery to repair due to a taunt line slicing across it i.e. a line drawn taunt due to a old school kitekiller from back in 1999.
Taunt lines are dangerous, slack lines are not dangerous. Even if the kite is happily drifting downwind with noone attached to it the lines are slack. All the times I've dropped a kite the kite has stopped because the canopy snagged on something within a couple seconds. Or the canopy just balls up and rolls happily down the beach till it hits a plant or post or something which stops it. All the while the lines are slack and not dangerous. Again taunt lines are dangerous slack lines are not.
However, if you drop a kite on kite killers the lines are now taunt plus you have not control over the kite. It can flop and flip all over the place but while it does this the lines are taunt. If someone is between you and the kite and they get hit it will be by taunt lines which are dangerous. If the kite was just dropped and it hits someone the lines are slack and won't slice. It might hurt but the lines won't cut easily.

Finally, whatever method you choose please don't fly with obstacles downwind of you. That way you won't ever have a problem. Good luck.
I'm otta this discussion-which is a good one for sure :thumbup: Good topic.
Scott

kitesurf accident.jpg - 44kB

Baluk - 30-12-2007 at 05:15 PM

Oh, and I forgot to Say. Scott/Speleo.

I totally agree with you on the water part. When the kite lands in the water, it doesn't power down. It just turns a 1.5m fast profoil into a humongous SLOW 20 million meter flexifoil blade. Taking a kite out of water is a beast, and with kite killers attached an waves rolling, you def aren't safe in the surf!

Is that photo from a water or land accident? from the name assuming water.

USA_Eli_A - 30-12-2007 at 06:04 PM

Kite Killlers (SAFETY LEASH)...iF you have to release the handles in an EMERGENCY the kite will stall, and stay connected to you.

keep the kite from flying away from it's flyer, keeping the public safe.
kite killers, when engaged, automatically depower and land the kite.

I don't think racers use KK, might be a good idea though, for safety! No kites sliding accross the field. No lines to get tangles into!

I only use these for land kiting, there are other water safety systems. KK work awesome with the buggy students. Most customers are concerned if they don't have them.

The sport is growing like crazy, new spots are accessible because the new ozone/flexi/pl/pkd/all other "NEW" brands work much better than the "old" stuff I learned on. Even my yakuza fully stalls and lands if I let go. I can quickly release, becuase I've practiced with our students.

I feel better knowing other riders in our fields use them too!

Mikey17 - 31-12-2007 at 05:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tedsfoils
The flyers who are using the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s may not have ever dumped the kite and have the wind pick up... since you are still attached to the kite by both wrists the kite could still pull you downwind... and while this is going on you have no control.


in my experiences if the killers are set up correctly (brakes are the right length) then the kite is transformed into a useless ball off ripstop which is unable to become powered up again.

i have ditched my kite on killers in winds of 25mph gusting to 35 and not experienced the kite becoming anywhere near powered once 'killed'.

Pablo - 31-12-2007 at 11:30 AM

I agree with Corey in some ways, Teaching control is first and formost. If you learn to properly use the brakes there's often no need to go to kite killers. Quite often you're safer hitting the brakes, settling down, then letting off the brakes and carrying on than to drop the kite, drag it over who knows what, possibly wrap it around the rear axle. But this is assuming that you have some idea of control and are in a safe open area.

Sadly most guys go out, buy a kite and think they're king of the world. Seen it enough times. I was one of those guys years ago. I used KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s back then and avoided injuring anyone around me all those times I lost it. Most noobies like the power, go out looking for more and more power, It's not a bad thing, but eventually they learn what too much power is. Then a while later they learn what well powered is. This is the main reason I'm for KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.

Having said that, I'm not using them now, I always fly a fully captive system, That means that the kite can not come free of my harness under any conditions unless I pull the quick release. The kite stays hooked in by it's power lines to my harness. So the only way the kite will ever be killed is if I apply the brakes. Most cases I have no problem using something similar to Corey's method for dropping the kite when needed, even after the nasty OBE's. I don't use any sort of KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s with this setup, it just complicates things and offers no real benefit. The couple times I've had to cut the kite loose over the last couple years I'd taken a pretty good hit and didn't want anything to do with the kite on kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s or not, so it went it's own way to be picked up later.

speleopower - 31-12-2007 at 05:09 PM

Yeah, the finger injury was in the water-waist deep or so. Kite canopy was over land. The kite was basicly on the killers with very sharp taunt brake lines. The kite was flapping wildly about and the finger got in the way. Very very bad injury-a lot worse than it looks.

Just make sure not to fly with objects and people downwind of you and you'll be fine with no kite killers. If your racing then all bets are off 'cause racing is racing and everyone knows the dangers.

Just remember that no matter what you fly as long as your not overpowered and having fun it's all good!

Scott

acampbell - 1-1-2008 at 02:52 PM

Had a nasty OBE this moriing in light but gusty, snatchy winds on the beach (west wind flowing over the island, out to sea). Started off with my PL Reactor 8.3m which I could launch in a puff and then keep going in apparent wind. The winds built quickly and gave me a good launch, flipped the bug and landed me on the hard-pack and shattered my bike helmet.

Had it not been for my kite killers, my Reactor would have been drifting west in the Atlantic. Yes I could have arrested the kite with the grab and pull method (I do wear gloves), but with the shock of hitting the beach so hard, there was a better than 50-50 chance I would have dropped it. With the kite killers deployed, the kite flagged but stayed in the air long enough for me to get to my feet and get it off the water for a dry landing.

Besides testing and demos, this was the first time I have deployed kite killers for real. I will keep them, thanks.

Deadhead - 2-1-2008 at 08:53 AM

After this weekend, yep I"ll be using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s. Put up a new 3.5m in gusty high teens-low 20's. Felt really good high up - dropped into the window, and had a great scud of about 25 ft. Took her high, dropped back in as a gust hit. Very nice superman (I'm told my form was great), followed by about a 50 ft slide down the beach. Finally landed the bugger. Had I been using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, could've avoided all of that. Of course, it also would have deprived my wife and others from their weekly entertainment!!

Bottom line - I'll definately be using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, especially with a new kite!

krumly - 2-1-2008 at 09:33 AM

I use kitekillers when I'm on handles and no harness, and a QR safety shackle and additional safety leash w/ QR pin release when I'm on a bar or on handles "fully captive."

Although I agree with Corey you need to emphasize kite control, I've had a couple of instances in the gusty inland Minnesota winds where I've been yanked over, smacked an elbow, hit a funny bone and let go of a handle. The kite killer made sure I wasn't running after a tangled up mess. And I definitely count myself as one to pick my kite conservatively for the conditions.

krumly

Pablo - 2-1-2008 at 12:55 PM

One note on captive setups, there's nothing quite like surviving a fairly bad OBE, thinking thank God I'm in one piece, then having the kite power up again and going for round two. Fully captive means you always have to be on the kite. When it all goes bad you've still got to either cut the kite loose or use Corey's method.

Side note, if someone goes down hard around you, the standard rule is always go secure the kite before running over to the person for the same reason, Just throw weight on it or ball it up under your arm and throw it under a buggy wheel or something, chances are they'll be thankful for the help when they catch their breath. You can't help them if they're still stuck to something that can power up again.

Pdxnebula - 3-1-2008 at 03:26 PM

I only have 1 set of KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s but use them on all my kites, switch Kites, switch over KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s to the nexy kite NP, (peice of mind)... Kudos' to KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s

Scudley - 15-1-2008 at 08:33 PM

I guess everybody who has something to say on this topic has had their say. I started this topic to see if there was good science behind kite killers or if they are like ski run-away straps of old that seemed like a good idea at the time.
I would like to sum what I saw from this discussion.

Many people said they were a safety feature for the pilot. The only examples provided were that the kite was safer not the pilot. No one provided an instance where the pilot was safer with killers than without. Some writers provided examples as to why the pilot was safer with out KKs. Some writers suggested that it allowed them to have confidence with a larger kite. This equipment courage is frequently used as an argument used against bike helmets.


Most felt that kite killers would reduce "struck by" accidents involving handles. A number writers questioned whether this was the accident of greatest severity, suggesting that abrasion injuries may have a greater risk of occurring and a higher severity. Other writers pointed out that the high speed portion or handle release without KK/s is relatively short lived and that once this energy dissipated, the kite and handles are unlike to cause injury.

Pilots who have been flying for a while are less likely to have faith in KKs than newbies. With apologies to Baluk who asked "Who thinks KK are unsafe?"; the answer is a few people who have been buggying longer that you have been out of short pants.

No kite manufacturer or designers put in their opinions, although several North American distributors did. Was this chance or not wanting to voice an opinion that could be used against them in court. Amongst the distributors the opinion was mixed.

One writer wrote that "every kite needs a safety system, no matter how lame".
Thank you all for the input. I am going to take this topic to racekites and get the UK perspective.

Regards
S

Bladerunner - 16-1-2008 at 04:53 PM

Hey Scudley,
How do YOU stand on KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s :?: As I remember you stood by them back in the day. I haven't paid attention to if you are using them now you've gone buggy ? Personally I think they are a pain in the :moon: but think we may have to include them at G.P. in the future. :( I know I feel less safe when strapped to them. Somehow I see my kite hitting someone a lot harder if it's stuck to me and pulling powered kiteloops than realeased and losing air .

I'm not the king of the air but when it hits the fan and you are jumping so you have to bail in the air, wouldn't it complicate things when you let go and the brakes hit ?

How about buggy racing in Europe ? I'm pretty sure they aren't used.

Do the clubs in G.B and Europe require them ?

Please let us know what you get out of Racekites forum !!

Scudley - 16-1-2008 at 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by snowbird
Hey Scudley,
How do YOU stand on KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s :?: As I remember you stood by them back in the day. I haven't paid attention to if you are using them now you've gone buggy ? Personally I think they are a pain in the :moon: but think we may have to include them at G.P. in the future. :(


The possibility of having to use them at GP is why I started the discussion. I wanted to see if there was any real reason to think they work and whether we should put a rule in place.
I think the power kiting community (users and manufacturers) needs to examine in a scientific manner whether they are beneficial and in what circumstances. There seems to be a lot of confusion amongst pilots as to their possible benefits.

As to racekites most of the responders seem to be of recent vintage and very pro killers. Many seem to think that kite recovery is a safety feature for pilots. Most do not see that they could ever be a hazard.

S
I am still waiting for winds to test my strop QR

S

tridude - 16-1-2008 at 07:56 PM

Flip a coin, read your daily horoscope and dont even go with the short pants comments. Im fifty, fit, and tired of your arrogant post. Grow a set and make a decision!

Scudley - 17-1-2008 at 12:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tridude
Flip a coin, read your daily horoscope and dont even go with the short pants comments. Im fifty, fit, and tired of your arrogant post. Grow a set and make a decision!


I do not think that I will flip a coin or read my horoscope. I think I consider as much information as possible so I make as informed a decision as possible. This may sound like a very novel idea to you, who apparently is suggesting I use my testicles to make intellectual decision.
The comment about short pants was actually the response to Baluk from the person who put the bee in my ear about kite killers. He sort of resented having his opinion on a point about power kiting, which he has been doing almost longer than Baluk has been breathing, being dismissed as stupid by someone with only a years experience. His comment had more to do with the content of BaluS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s pants when he started kiting than their length. I changed it for family content.
You are right I should have been more polite and reminded everyone as we used to at the PI team meetings, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

I hope you can find topics more to your liking in the near future.

S

BeamerBob - 17-1-2008 at 06:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snowbird
I know I feel less safe when strapped to them. Somehow I see my kite hitting someone a lot harder if it's stuck to me and pulling powered kiteloops than realeased and losing air .

I'm not the king of the air but when it hits the fan and you are jumping so you have to bail in the air, wouldn't it complicate things when you let go and the brakes hit ?


I've never had any of my kites pulling and doing powered kite loops while on the KKs. If you have them attached properly as Angus said before, you have full brakes and the length of your brake leader braking the kite. If my kite is leaning on the KKs, it is just ruffling on the ground at best. I would have to pull the handles back to even get the cells to fill, and then it just sits there like its on a stake. I find the KKs reassuring when flying in gusty inland wind. You can be having a great time and suddenly the wind doubles for 4-5 seconds. You go from happy to fearing for your life in a second. I don't want to stay home because a gust might come up. I don't fly with people close downwind or under my lines, so if all else fails, I like to know I have a surefire escape plan with (to date) no negatives whatsoever.

If you are jumping, and get too high, letting go of the handles would be a bad idea. At that point you NEED the kite to get back down unless falling is better than where you are headed. In that case you weren't using good judgment to start with. I wouldn't scoff at someone else for not using KKs but I won't launch without them unless the kite I have up and the present conditions are such that I am very confident I can handle anything coming along. For instance, I don't have them for my Profoil 1.5. It can be snatchy in high gusty winds, but it is so responsive to the brakes that I can get myself back in shape almost instantly with the brakes. Any kite of mine from the beamer and larger always have KKs on unless I'm struggling to keep it in the air to start with.

This is one of those subjects that hardly anyone is going to be swayed from their opinion but it is always good to hear what someone else thinks. It just might open your eyes to another point of view you haven't considered. These are just my opinions and observations, and I am grateful to have access to all of yours.:thumbup:

USA_Eli_A - 17-1-2008 at 11:43 AM

:thumbup:

I second that.

Bladerunner - 17-1-2008 at 02:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob


I've never had any of my kites pulling and doing powered kite loops while on the KKs. If you have them attached properly as Angus said before, you have full brakes and the length of your brake leader braking the kite. If my kite is leaning on the KKs, it is just ruffling on the ground at best. I would have to pull the handles back to even get the cells to fill, and then it just sits there like its on a stake. I find the KKs reassuring when flying in gusty inland wind. You can be having a great time and suddenly the wind doubles for 4-5 seconds. You go from happy to fearing for your life in a second. I don't want to stay home because a gust might come up. I don't fly with people close downwind or under my lines, so if all else fails, I like to know I have a surefire escape plan with (to date) no negatives whatsoever.
If you are jumping, and get too high, letting go of the handles would be a bad idea. At that point you NEED the kite to get back down unless falling is better than where you are headed.



Ken's REPLY........


Making sure that you have at least double the distance of your lines downwind is a very good choice. I have NEVER let my fixed bridle loose and have it fly that distance. My Closed cell is a different story and a different safety.

If you let go of your kite but it gets caught in you spreader or wrapped around your handle the powered kiteloop scenario is very real !

I don't know about you but I have felt some VERY strong hits when I let go and the brakes come on in big wind. I haven't experienced this bailing from a jump but have bailed on my Bullets many times. They have a rep. for chucking you downwind and slamming you. Removing myself from the kite has felt right under that situation.

If a gust hits and you have descent flying skills you would put on the brakes manually or at least I do ! Always size your kite for the gusts then you won't be so afraid to go out!

Clearing myself from the kite if I can't bring it down safely ( fixed bridle on handles ) has been my surefire escape plan that also ( to date ) has had no negative outcome.

That said. We are likely to have to introduce kite killers locally due to the Parks Board actively working with us + the limited space . I can and will use them if I have to :( I'll still leave them in the bag when I buggy on the bay !

The important thing is BE SAFE however you feel that is !!
Oh.... and have fun !!!

Don't be too hard on Scudley. He means well !

BeamerBob - 17-1-2008 at 03:00 PM

I agree completely about keeping open space downwind of your kite, and I might not be completely comfortable with only double the line length.

I'm not sure yet about harnesses and spreader bars, but didn't think they went along with Kite Killers. I usually fly static and rarely get a chance to ride a buggy. In the buggy I use the same handles and kite killers I do flying static, so I'll have to defer comment about kite killers getting caught in a spreader bar. However, every time I've used the kite killers to demonstrate them to someone else, the kite just flutters down to the ground. Mine are the new HW style and connected to the brake leaders with bungee cord so maybe that is absorbing the shock you feel.

I agree about applying your brakes first if you are in trouble. I've only turned the handles loose to save myself twice. Once in a buggy and once when I was horizontal about 6 feet high. Second kite flight in WAY more wind than I had business flying in. Now I know. Even with my newfound understanding of a kites power, I still use the KKs unless I'm just barely keeping the kite in the air.